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During Barry's dinner there was a great effort to promote the APP.  Also, the DCS is now available in the 2019 catalog with the TIU packaged with the Wi-Fi.  Remote will no longer be promoted and will be phased out as inventory is depleted.  The remote will be replaced with our phones and iPad.  Great business model to eliminate the cost of procuring the remote from an outside vendor for MTH.  App will eliminate the need to update the hardware on a remote to take advantage of newly developed features.  Also, eliminate supply disruption in these uncertain international supply disruptions and quality.

Having said that, the current remote is ergonomically friendly and allows you to run without taking the eyes off the action.  The tactile buttons make it easy.  An iPad or phone lacks this sensory interaction and does not sit in the hand as well.  I was a little surprise at how smoothly that was announced creating very little feedback from users.

 

One thing to note that both Lionel and MTH booth personnel were dealing with their issues trying to get their apps to work in there booths.  Not disparaging Wi-Fi control, just saying how important is was to both companies to market.  That seemed to be their big Harrah push.

 

Mr. Kunkel also told me that Lionel has no plans to phase out remote.  An easy to use remote (a plus for MTH) going away, and Lionel keeping theirs (now an exclusive plus for Lionel) should be looked at closer.  It will be a feature Lionel has that will no longer offered by MTH.  Pretty bold move.

 

I think I got this right.  Feel free to correct me.  By the way, remember the importance of the "playable horn" which will not be accessible with the current remote.

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Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:

 

 

One thing to note that both Lionel and MTH booth personnel were dealing with their issues trying to get their apps to work in there booths.  Not disparaging Wi-Fi control, just saying how important is was to both companies to market.  That seemed to be their big Harrah push.

 WiFi interference in that building is horrible.  I'm not surprised they were having issues.  

Mr. Kunkel also told me that Lionel has no plans to phase out remote.  An easy to use remote (a plus for MTH) going away, and Lionel keeping theirs (now an exclusive plus for Lionel) should be looked at closer.  It will be a feature Lionel has that will no longer offered by MTH.  Pretty bold move.

 I suspect Lionel will be dropping their remote in a few years.  I don't think their WiFi app is as developed as the DCS app which does everything the DCS remote does and more.  We were told at the Legacy meeting the WiFi app getting an update. 

I think I got this right.  Feel free to correct me.  By the way, remember the importance of the "playable horn" which will not be accessible with the current remote.

I'm a hardware remote guy myself but see the writing on the wall.  

MartyE posted:
Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:

 One thing to note that both Lionel and MTH booth personnel were dealing with their issues trying to get their apps to work in there booths.  Not disparaging Wi-Fi control, just saying how important is was to both companies to market.  That seemed to be their big Harrah push.

 WiFi interference in that building is horrible.  I'm not surprised they were having issues.  

Mr. Kunkel also told me that Lionel has no plans to phase out remote.  An easy to use remote (a plus for MTH) going away, and Lionel keeping theirs (now an exclusive plus for Lionel) should be looked at closer.  It will be a feature Lionel has that will no longer offered by MTH.  Pretty bold move.

 I suspect Lionel will be dropping their remote in a few years.  I don't think their WiFi app is as developed as the DCS app which does everything the DCS remote does and more.  We were told at the Legacy meeting the WiFi app getting an update. 

I think I got this right.  Feel free to correct me.  By the way, remember the importance of the "playable horn" which will not be accessible with the current remote.

I'm a hardware remote guy myself but see the writing on the wall.  

Unfortunately that will require multiple TIU users to purcha$e multiple MTH WiFi units. And as mentioned by EddieM and others, you loose the intuitive touch/feel of the remote.

It seems that manufacturers have gone toward marketing driven by them projecting what we want.  I really think that a survey or marketing effort to the users by MTH would be helpful in making a proper decision.  GM tried manufacturer driven marketing back in the 70's and 80's and thought all we wanted was the hood ornament on the Caprice Classic.  Boy, that really worked as a business model.  I submit the Andy and Mike W. may want to look at "stepping back" as the direction they want to go.  Technology is great, but touch and feel are still important.  Of course, they are the experts.

I'm surprised this news is regarded as "new" from those who have been around for a few years or more.  This was actually suggested quite a while ago (by Mike, during a TCA Museum talk{edit - I think Chris (below) and I probably saw the same talk}).  Understandable for anyone more recently joining the hobby, since they weren't here to hear it back when it was first suggested.

Mike definitely loves the App.  With all the delays and money he must have poured in developing the DCS system way back when, I can understand from a development standpoint why he wants to go that way.  Much cheaper to develop software for a piece of hardware you don't have to build than to have to develop both.

He also talked up the fact that everyone already has a smart phone (or many do, at least).  He considered it a benefit that people could do what they want with a piece of hardware many already have rather than spend more money on a separate remote.

I'm fully in the hardware remote camp as well.  I can't stand looking at a screen to control a train since I can't feel for anything but the home and volume buttons on an iPod/iPhone.

-Dave

Last edited by Dave45681

I suspect that MTH has a pretty good handle on what sells and what will sell in the future.  They probably figure that they will not sell enough of the DCS handheld's to make it worth their while vs. the Wifi ap.

It might also be that it cannot be updated without a major overhaul to do what they want it to do (or what we will want it to do) in the next few years.  The Smart Device/Wifi Ap probably has far fewer limitations in terms of features and innovations over time.

That being said, I still like to use the handheld and probably use it about 50% of the time.

feet posted:

I thought MTH announced a while back that they would keep making remotes. I don't own a cell phone let alone  smart phone and don't want either. Guess I better start buying spare remotes.

I think after some initial feedback when this topic first surfaced, they stated that they would make "some more" remotes, way back when.  Supposedly the "last run" was supposed to be large enough to support demand for quite a while, but we shall see how hard they become to buy in the near future, I guess.

If you have wireless internet at home, you can try a non-phone device like a tablet or iPod Touch.  Those suffer from the same issue of being a screen, but don't require you to be shelling out for a smart phone bill each month after the purchase of the hardware (again, assuming you have high speed internet with wi-fi at home - I'm not sure if there may be some way to get the apps on these devices via hard wire if you don't use a wi-fi router - if there is, I don't know how).   I think I bought my latest iPod touch (used for things other than controlling my trains) in May of this year for around $190 at a local big box store.

-Dave

Norton posted:

I read this before April York and tried to buy some more thumbwheels at the show and was told they are out of stock. Same story last week. They said they have to order 500 minimum. Doesn't look like thats going to happen so when your handheld dies, thats it unless you have a spare(s). Bummer.

Pete

I know the feeling. I tried to order a dozen and set them aside. Wonder how many would opt to make it to the minimum?

As much as I do not like the whole electronic takeover of train running let us take a real look of what the future will bring.  I come into the train room (or not), put on my googles or helmet call for the heads up display and do a quick over view of the entire railroad empire.  I check all my overhead cameras that give me a look at the entire layout.  I then decide which engine I will start on its programed run.  The engine camera is working so I start it in motion.  I then move to the other trains awaiting my signal and or new program for the session.  As the trains are up and running I check them with the overheads and or the front camera before I turn my attention to the accessories that I want to have operating.  A friend comes in (late as usual) put on his helmet and takes over control of the trains that are his responsibility.  Then I remember to crank up the wifi so that the operation goes live.  After all we get 200-300 viewers a day watching the operation.  That does not include those that have signed up to run the trains that they have paid to control in this session.

OK, my question, 'how far in the future are we from this operating session'?

I must agree with the general feeling of disappointment. I am of the generation that grew up with PC's and obtained smartphones in my early teens so I am of the "WiFi" era.

I recently added the WIU to my DCS/Legacy Setup at home and I must say, I still find myself HEAVILY reliant on the DCS and Legacy remotes. The APP just hasn't really loured me in, I find the APP adds a few seconds to my response times and doesn't give me the tactile feedback I have grown accustomed to. The only feature, I guess, you can say is better on the APP is the Whistle feature as Quillable whistle with the DCS remote was a bit cumbersome.

My WIU has been more of a gateway to introduce my daughters to the hobby as if they drop my phone (In a protective case and with accidental damage warranty, these are things you quickly add as a new parent) they can simply pick it up and keep playing vs the DCS remote runs the risk of being permanently damaged and it seems they find it easier to use. My wife, who also has never used the remotes, also agrees the APP is easy for her to understand and use.

I guess if you have never used the remote before, you would not know the ease of using the remote, and all it has offered us in the passed. New comers seem to like it better from what I can tell.

I understand the cost involved with the remote as some have mentioned/saved going the WIU way, but I don't understand the complete removal of the remote product. Offer both options, or the remote as an "upgrade", or "downgrade" depending on your views, that way you cater to both crowds. The money for engineering the remote has already been spent, the customer base has been established, why toss that to the wind completely?

Hey Mike and MTH have made it this far in the game and we are still buying their stuff so they must know something we don't.

P.s., everyone has a smart phone, but the APP is best used on a device with a large display like an iPad. I use my phone but I know it will be better on a larger device.

Dave45681 posted:

If you have wireless internet at home, you can try a non-phone device like a tablet or iPod Touch.  Those suffer from the same issue of being a screen, but don't require you to be shelling out for a smart phone bill each month after the purchase of the hardware (again, assuming you have high speed internet with wi-fi at home - I'm not sure if there may be some way to get the apps on these devices via hard wire if you don't use a wi-fi router - if there is, I don't know how).   I think I bought my latest iPod touch (used for things other than controlling my trains) in May of this year for around $190 at a local big box store.

-Dave

For the record, if you can have someone help you get the App on your tablet you don't need wireless internet in your home. My understanding is that the MTH WiFi device has the ability to send out its own WiFi signal independently just for your trains. Others with more experience can chime in where that switch is located or if there is an easier way to download the App to your tablet.

MTH set this up so that it doesn't matter what devices you currently use in your life, just grab a second hand tablet around the same cost of the remote if your using WiFi and your good to go.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Very disappointing to me.  I prefer the remote.  I think MTH is making a mistake they will likely regret down the road.  Also, if you have more than one TIU, you have to buy WiFi for each of them, imagine how the operators of large layouts are going to react.

John

Totally Agree with you. Poor decision on MTH's part. BTW the TMB club runs DCS with 5 TIU's  in Super Mode, so a change will require 5 WiFi packages. I like as it is now with WiFi as a user option, so MTH should continue to offer both

Last edited by L.I.TRAIN
SGP posted:
Dave45681 posted:

If you have wireless internet at home, you can try a non-phone device like a tablet or iPod Touch.  Those suffer from the same issue of being a screen, but don't require you to be shelling out for a smart phone bill each month after the purchase of the hardware (again, assuming you have high speed internet with wi-fi at home - I'm not sure if there may be some way to get the apps on these devices via hard wire if you don't use a wi-fi router - if there is, I don't know how).   I think I bought my latest iPod touch (used for things other than controlling my trains) in May of this year for around $190 at a local big box store.

-Dave

For the record, if you can have someone help you get the App on your tablet you don't need wireless internet in your home. My understanding is that the MTH WiFi device has the ability to send out its own WiFi signal independently just for your trains. Others with more experience can chime in where that switch is located or if there is an easier way to download the App to your tablet.

MTH set this up so that it doesn't matter what devices you currently use in your life, just grab a second hand tablet around the same cost of the remote if your using WiFi and your good to go.

"Same cost of the remote" - I bought a pair of RCA tablets last year for $25 each at Shopko and both run the app the perfectly.

SGP posted:
Dave45681 posted:

If you have wireless internet at home, you can try a non-phone device like a tablet or iPod Touch.  Those suffer from the same issue of being a screen, but don't require you to be shelling out for a smart phone bill each month after the purchase of the hardware (again, assuming you have high speed internet with wi-fi at home - I'm not sure if there may be some way to get the apps on these devices via hard wire if you don't use a wi-fi router - if there is, I don't know how).   I think I bought my latest iPod touch (used for things other than controlling my trains) in May of this year for around $190 at a local big box store.

-Dave

For the record, if you can have someone help you get the App on your tablet you don't need wireless internet in your home. My understanding is that the MTH WiFi device has the ability to send out its own WiFi signal independently just for your trains. Others with more experience can chime in where that switch is located or if there is an easier way to download the App to your tablet.

MTH set this up so that it doesn't matter what devices you currently use in your life, just grab a second hand tablet around the same cost of the remote if your using WiFi and your good to go.

I forgot to mention.  Upgraded app (25.00) x DCS users (???) to get features we have with remote, TIU, & AIU.  Sounds like income without representation ($$$) to me.  I don't care about the $25.00.  I am also not adverse to spending the money for a "Premier Plus" remote to keep the physical unit as the conduit.  It's the aggravation part of the transition that turns me off.  MTH - What are your thoughts?  Sounds like a great customer satisfaction opportunity.  A company really shines with how they deal with adversity.

BTW.  I have reached out to Andy with MTH.  Wouldn't hurt if others also reached out to them.  Like our rolling inventory.  The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:

I forgot to mention.  Upgraded app (25.00) x DCS users (???) to get features we have with remote, TIU, & AIU.  Sounds like income without representation ($$$) to me.

We have a single google account that has already purchased the upgraded $25 app. Anyone who uses that account to download the app doesn't pay for each device and or user of the premium app. Our cost to install the premium app on 6 devices was a total of $25.

Last edited by H1000
SGP posted:

For the record, if you can have someone help you get the App on your tablet you don't need wireless internet in your home. My understanding is that the MTH WiFi device has the ability to send out its own WiFi signal independently just for your trains. Others with more experience can chime in where that switch is located or if there is an easier way to download the App to your tablet.

MTH set this up so that it doesn't matter what devices you currently use in your life, just grab a second hand tablet around the same cost of the remote if your using WiFi and your good to go.

Correct, of course.  I meant to imply the internet connection was needed in order to get the App on the devices, but your right that they can talk directly to the DCS WiFi unit once the App is installed.

As to the discussion of abandoning the already engineered remote, it has been suggested (or even stated as a hard fact, but I can't quote a source off the top of my head) that it is a parts availability issue.  It's will not be feasible to continue "just ordering more" of the same thing.  Considering the TIU/Remote first came out in 2002 (and was in development for at least 2+ years before that most likely), it's not hard to believe some of the 16+ year old parts are no longer available from the tech companies that actually make the chips.

Therefore, continuing to offer the remote would require at least some level of a re-design.  That is what MTH is trying to avoid.

-Dave

Dave45681 posted:
SGP posted:

For the record, if you can have someone help you get the App on your tablet you don't need wireless internet in your home. My understanding is that the MTH WiFi device has the ability to send out its own WiFi signal independently just for your trains. Others with more experience can chime in where that switch is located or if there is an easier way to download the App to your tablet.

MTH set this up so that it doesn't matter what devices you currently use in your life, just grab a second hand tablet around the same cost of the remote if your using WiFi and your good to go.

Correct, of course.  I meant to imply the internet connection was needed in order to get the App on the devices, but your right that they can talk directly to the DCS WiFi unit once the App is installed.

As to the discussion of abandoning the already engineered remote, it has been suggested (or even stated as a hard fact, but I can't quote a source off the top of my head) that it is a parts availability issue.  It's will not be feasible to continue "just ordering more" of the same thing.  Considering the TIU/Remote first came out in 2002 (and was in development for at least 2+ years before that most likely), it's not hard to believe some of the 16+ year old parts are no longer available from the tech companies that actually make the chips.

Therefore, continuing to offer the remote would require at least some level of a re-design.  That is what MTH is trying to avoid.

-Dave

I have read that on this forum before and that might be true BUT!!! to your logic, those said discontinued components have either gotten cheaper to manufacture or a cheaper alternative has been created to replace it.

Electronics get cheaper, smaller, and then replaced with something even cheaper and even smaller and so on and so on.

So MTH doesn't want to re-engineer the remote with modern components does indeed make sense but don't blame the parts, they can be found one way or another. That costs prohibit those changes is a different deal of course.

I will be the contrarian and offer that it makes little sense to be wed to hardware that is more than a decade old, actually I think closer to 15 years old.   The best example of the problems associated with this approach is when Lionel was trying to get new Legacy handhelds made.  They did, eventually, and that is a credit to their commitment to the customer but being bound to such old hardware creates risks and problems that no business wants to contend with.  Further, I am sure MTH has done market research to support the move to the app, not just Mike's personal preferences.  The app will prove more reliable than the handhelds, which eat batteries quickly and have a tendency to have that thumbwheel wear out prematurely. 

Further, for anyone in the hobby who is reasonably young, like those kids we always talk about wanting to attract, the app is much more intuitive.  Both of my boys use the MTH app to control the trains.  The other handheld controls remain unused except when I run them.  If this biggest challenge in the hobby is attracting new, younger entrants, the handhelds are dinosaurs and are no longer worth the cost to maintain. 

At some point this debate will go away as there will be direct Bluetooth control of the full suite of Legacy and DCS features.  I suspect they could do it now, but neither Lionel or MTH wants to make their proprietary box-based control systems obsolete, at least not yet.  Lionel is giving us a glimpse of this with some of the LC+ product.  More of that will come, most certainly. 

 

H1000 posted:
Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:

I forgot to mention.  Upgraded app (25.00) x DCS users (???) to get features we have with remote, TIU, & AIU.  Sounds like income without representation ($$$) to me.

We have a single google account that has already purchased the upgraded $25 app. Anyone who uses that account to download the app doesn't pay for each device and or user of the premium app. Our cost to install the premium app on 6 devices was a total of $25.

$25.00 per user, up to 6 devices.  I am talking about $25.00 x user, not $25.00 x devices.  Still $25.00 x users is real money.  Customer money.  Every user will spend $25.00.  Can't estimate because I don't know how many DCS users are out there.  I would speculate that there are a few users out there who have or had not intention of using the app.  This does not take into account the users that want to stay under the radar (no wireless tech) because they don't trust anything that goes over a radio wave.  Some avoid potential hacking by not going there.  I know it is safe with DCS and the app.  But there is still an educational process to deal with making people feel secure.  They won't be bothered.  They will be like the quiet customers, and just go away and in time people will ask why?  That is usually to late to reverse the tide.

MTH may avoid making an investment in the remote, but they are also making an investment in Lionel locomotives for me.  Yes, I have a smart phone, a tablet, and even a couple of older smart phones in boxes.  It's not the availability of the WiFi hardware that's the impediment, at least in my case.  I think the MTH WiFi application interface is decent, but I still by far prefer the hand held remote.  I'll buy stuff that I still have a remote to run.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

MTH may avoid making an investment in the remote, but they are also making an investment in Lionel locomotives for me.  Yes, I have a smart phone, a tablet, and even a couple of older smart phones in boxes.  It's not the availability of the WiFi hardware that's the impediment, at least in my case.  I think the MTH WiFi application interface is decent, but I still by far prefer the hand held remote.  I'll buy stuff that I still have a remote to run.

That is a fair point and your decision to spend as you wish.  Mike is betting that more consumers will appreciate and use the app.  It's a business judgment on his part and I think given where the market is, it is a reasonable one.  If he loses customers due to it, that is his loss but I suspect most of the people on this thread expressing a view tend to skew more towards Legacy/ high end operation anyways, so perhaps that is not a loss as far as he is concerned because perhaps he is already ceding the extreme high end to Lionel.  I have no idea what his thinking is but in the year 2018 there are few businesses that want to be wed to 15 year old hardware.

Ray Lombardo posted:
gunrunnerjohn posted:

MTH may avoid making an investment in the remote, but they are also making an investment in Lionel locomotives for me.  Yes, I have a smart phone, a tablet, and even a couple of older smart phones in boxes.  It's not the availability of the WiFi hardware that's the impediment, at least in my case.  I think the MTH WiFi application interface is decent, but I still by far prefer the hand held remote.  I'll buy stuff that I still have a remote to run.

That is a fair point and your decision to spend as you wish.  Mike is betting that more consumers will appreciate and use the app.  It's a business judgment on his part and I think given where the market is, it is a reasonable one.  If he loses customers due to it, that is his loss but I suspect most of the people on this thread expressing a view tend to skew more towards Legacy/ high end operation anyways, so perhaps that is not a loss as far as he is concerned because perhaps he is already ceding the extreme high end to Lionel.  I have no idea what his thinking is but in the year 2018 there are few businesses that want to be wed to 15 year old hardware.

You're missing an even more basic point.  They have a choice now, remove one of the choices and you remove some of the customers!  It's not like the people that want to use the app are left out.

Unless I read Mike way wrong, he's not ceding anything to Lionel!

I also do not want to use my phone. 

MTH should continue to manufacture the handheld remote along with the app. for at least a few more years and see how it goes. 

I like the remote because everything is right in front of you, (the K.I.S.S. principal), as I don't need to look for which buttons to press while controlling the layout.  

I understand why the app was created and wouldn't mind trying it in the future on a tablet, maybe control a simple loop around the Christmas tree, but not the complexity of a multi train layout.

 

 

 

 

 

Last edited by RayKay

My HO model railroad club setup its NCE DCC system use smart phones to control trains about a year ago.  We have found that most members prefer using their smart phones to run trains instead of the NCE remote.  The NCE DCC remote is similar in shape and size to the MTH DCS remote.  

One huge advantage of the smart phone over the remote is that members don't have to remember to bring the remote to the club.  Nearly all members and most visitors have a smart phone with them at all times.  I think that smart phones will be the preferred method of controlling trains at clubs in the future.  Young members don't bother buying a NCE remote.  

I tested the MTH app on my smart phone at the NMRA convention in Kansas City.  It worked fine.  The MTH representative at the booth told me that the wifi signal was stronger than the remote's signal.  He said that users were less likely to get the dreaded "out of range" and "engine not found" messages when they use wifi.  I don't know if this is true or not.  

I will most likely install the MTH wifi app on my home layout in the near future.  I am hoping that it will work better than the remote.

NH Joe

 

My train inventory is mostly Lionel -- one TMCC loco, two Legacy locos and four LionChief locos in the THOMAS series -- and just one older MTH loco with PS2. I wired my home layout with control hardware for both brands, but I have not yet used the MTH DCS system for the one MTH loco; it's still in its (unopened) box.  I bought it for a special project that fell by the wayside. I intend to list the MTH loco (with NASA decor) and a string of accompanying NASA freight cars for sale on e-Bay soon. Perhaps another hobbyist will want that train. Then I'll be out of the MTH orbit forever and beyond the impact zone of their techno decision-making.

Lionel's Legacy system works reliably for me and my 5-year-old great-grandson. So I'll "grow where I'm planted." 

Mike M.  (ritrainguy)
mottlerm@gmail.com

superwarp1 posted:
clem k posted:

I sold my DCS wifi thing

   How much are remotes going for these days. 150.00????

Who knows? They could be going for more money down the road as they become more scarce.  I don’t imagine MTH will be supporting parts for them either which will be a real bummer when the thumb wheels break.  I always had an extra one in stock for a back up. 

Last edited by Chris Lonero

I understand the desire to eliminate a step and the associated costs however I use my phone for calls and to text.  I don't want it to be a camera, I don't want it to be a device to operate model trains.  I prefer the segregation.  That being said, since I don't have or plan to purchase DCS it really doesn't matter.  Just one more reason to stay away from the system.

I'm planning on buying a DCS system after the holidays. I was debating between getting the Wi-Fi system or the remote. I'll be getting the Wi-Fi system now. I have a tablet I can use for the app and it shouldn't be hard at all to figure out how to use it, especially since I haven't used the remote before.

I have to figure that at some point the controls will just be built into the locomotives (ala Lionchief) and controlled via Bluetooth.

New Haven Joe posted:

I tested the MTH app on my smart phone at the NMRA convention in Kansas City.  It worked fine.  The MTH representative at the booth told me that the wifi signal was stronger than the remote's signal.  He said that users were less likely to get the dreaded "out of range" and "engine not found" messages when they use wifi.  I don't know if this is true or not.  

NH Joe

 

I don't get the engine not found because of Remote and TIU conversations, it is because of the TIU and the engine not communicating well with each other, even in tethered mode. If the "out of range" and "engine not found" messages pop up because of bad software, that is another story.

yankspride4 posted:

I run trains as a break from daily life. That means putting the phone & tablet down.

I think I'll go back to conventional control at some point. 

A few thoughts:

My twin middle school age sons and I prefer the remotes and own three. Like yankspride4 says: the remote puts a mental separation in between everything else and train time. 

Also, my wifi isn't so great from top floor of my house to my basement. Seems like MTH is possibly introducing yet another possible point of frustration in running DCS/MTH trains. 

Finally, my personal smart phone gets call almost as frequently as my work phone.  And when it does, the screen changes to phone mode. What happens when two trains are about to go through a T crossing at opposite angles and at that moment my phone rings?  Crash, boom, bang!  Well, maybe MTH is smarter than I thought. This "issue" could result in more sales volumes to replace totaled trains. Heehee...

gunrunnerjohn posted:
Ray Lombardo posted:
gunrunnerjohn posted:

MTH may avoid making an investment in the remote, but they are also making an investment in Lionel locomotives for me.  Yes, I have a smart phone, a tablet, and even a couple of older smart phones in boxes.  It's not the availability of the WiFi hardware that's the impediment, at least in my case.  I think the MTH WiFi application interface is decent, but I still by far prefer the hand held remote.  I'll buy stuff that I still have a remote to run.

That is a fair point and your decision to spend as you wish.  Mike is betting that more consumers will appreciate and use the app.  It's a business judgment on his part and I think given where the market is, it is a reasonable one.  If he loses customers due to it, that is his loss but I suspect most of the people on this thread expressing a view tend to skew more towards Legacy/ high end operation anyways, so perhaps that is not a loss as far as he is concerned because perhaps he is already ceding the extreme high end to Lionel.  I have no idea what his thinking is but in the year 2018 there are few businesses that want to be wed to 15 year old hardware.

You're missing an even more basic point.  They have a choice now, remove one of the choices and you remove some of the customers!  It's not like the people that want to use the app are left out.

Unless I read Mike way wrong, he's not ceding anything to Lionel!

I reached out and received a response from Andy at MTH.  I asked his permission to paste his response.  If and when he gives the OK I will post.  Don't want to violate the boilerplate at the bottom of the email.  Hopefully soon, and we can understand there vision.  I think their purchasing audience is our demographic.  They envision young people and their like for apps and phones.  I think you need to get them to the trains first.  I don't see someone perusing the app store and saying with this app I will get into the train hobby.  In other words, you can't go to the fireplace and say "give me heat and then I will give you logs".  I agree with Gunrunner John.  It's good to have choices.  Not yes or no.

Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:
H1000 posted:
Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:

I forgot to mention.  Upgraded app (25.00) x DCS users (???) to get features we have with remote, TIU, & AIU.  Sounds like income without representation ($$$) to me.

We have a single google account that has already purchased the upgraded $25 app. Anyone who uses that account to download the app doesn't pay for each device and or user of the premium app. Our cost to install the premium app on 6 devices was a total of $25.

$25.00 per user, up to 6 devices.  I am talking about $25.00 x user, not $25.00 x devices.  Still $25.00 x users is real money.  Customer money.  Every user will spend $25.00.  Can't estimate because I don't know how many DCS users are out there.  I would speculate that there are a few users out there who have or had not intention of using the app.  This does not take into account the users that want to stay under the radar (no wireless tech) because they don't trust anything that goes over a radio wave.  Some avoid potential hacking by not going there.  I know it is safe with DCS and the app.  But there is still an educational process to deal with making people feel secure.  They won't be bothered.  They will be like the quiet customers, and just go away and in time people will ask why?  That is usually to late to reverse the tide.

Buy what you need, something that APP allows you to do.

What about those DCS remote users who bought features they don't need because they didn't opt for an AIU.

There is also a standard upgrade for $5 to allow full access to all engine features without accessory or switch control features.

My last new DCS remote cost just as much as a WIU plus the $25 app upgrade. Now I can add as many (disposable) remotes as I want without incurring any extra cost. 

I see what you are saying about the app upgrade looking like a money grab especially when it isn't a an object you can hold or put on the shelf.  It is software and you pay to unlock features within it. Some people get it, other just don't like paying money for something they can't physically touch.

Last edited by H1000
gunrunnerjohn posted:
Ray Lombardo posted:
gunrunnerjohn posted:

MTH may avoid making an investment in the remote, but they are also making an investment in Lionel locomotives for me.  Yes, I have a smart phone, a tablet, and even a couple of older smart phones in boxes.  It's not the availability of the WiFi hardware that's the impediment, at least in my case.  I think the MTH WiFi application interface is decent, but I still by far prefer the hand held remote.  I'll buy stuff that I still have a remote to run.

That is a fair point and your decision to spend as you wish.  Mike is betting that more consumers will appreciate and use the app.  It's a business judgment on his part and I think given where the market is, it is a reasonable one.  If he loses customers due to it, that is his loss but I suspect most of the people on this thread expressing a view tend to skew more towards Legacy/ high end operation anyways, so perhaps that is not a loss as far as he is concerned because perhaps he is already ceding the extreme high end to Lionel.  I have no idea what his thinking is but in the year 2018 there are few businesses that want to be wed to 15 year old hardware.

You're missing an even more basic point.  They have a choice now, remove one of the choices and you remove some of the customers!  It's not like the people that want to use the app are left out.

Unless I read Mike way wrong, he's not ceding anything to Lionel!

John, my underlying assumption is that the remotes cannot continue to be manufactured without further re-engineering, or at least that is what I have read here and heard at the local train store.  If there is no re-engineering necessary, then you are correct and they are simply foregoing customers.  I don't think most firms behave that irrationally.

Last edited by Ray Lombardo
H1000 posted:
Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:
H1000 posted:
Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:

I forgot to mention.  Upgraded app (25.00) x DCS users (???) to get features we have with remote, TIU, & AIU.  Sounds like income without representation ($$$) to me.

We have a single google account that has already purchased the upgraded $25 app. Anyone who uses that account to download the app doesn't pay for each device and or user of the premium app. Our cost to install the premium app on 6 devices was a total of $25.

$25.00 per user, up to 6 devices.  I am talking about $25.00 x user, not $25.00 x devices.  Still $25.00 x users is real money.  Customer money.  Every user will spend $25.00.  Can't estimate because I don't know how many DCS users are out there.  I would speculate that there are a few users out there who have or had not intention of using the app.  This does not take into account the users that want to stay under the radar (no wireless tech) because they don't trust anything that goes over a radio wave.  Some avoid potential hacking by not going there.  I know it is safe with DCS and the app.  But there is still an educational process to deal with making people feel secure.  They won't be bothered.  They will be like the quiet customers, and just go away and in time people will ask why?  That is usually to late to reverse the tide.

Buy what you need, something that APP allows you to do.

What about those DCS remote users who bought features they don't need because they didn't opt for an AIU.

There is also a standard upgrade for $5 to allow full access to all engine features without accessory or switch control features.

My last new DCS remote cost just as much as a WIU plus the $25 app upgrade. Now I can add as many (disposable) remotes as I want without incurring any extra cost. 

I see what you are saying about the app upgrade looking like a money grab especially when it isn't a an object you can hold or put on the shelf.  It is software and you pay to unlock features within it. Some people get it, other just don't like paying money for something they can't physically touch.

Both are kinda correct though.

Here is how I got burned and although I am not super upset about it, it still kinds ticked me off.

I am a die hard android user, I have never purchased an iPhone in my life. I bought the WIU after purchasing a TIU with remote. Went home hooked everything up, whipped out my android phone and had some fun. Then, I told myself, self, it would be better for you to use your company iPad since it has a larger screen. OOOPPPSSS!!! I need t pay another $25 to access the features on my iPad! That kinda sticks IMO, I am the same person, using the same WIU to control one layout, why does it sound fair to MTH to charge me $50 to run my trains in my personal situation, I am sure others have both Android and IOS devices in their lives.

Last I checked, MTH had one remote, no matter if you are android, IOS, windows, linux, ms-dos, blackberry, palm pilot; the remote doesn't care how many engines you have, doesn't care if you like Star Wars or Star Trek, it just worked.

I am sorry but a successful business, not only grows with the times, but also caters to all possible customers not just those who decide to purchase something going forward.

Chris Lonero posted:

MTH did send out a questioner a while back asking what we would like to see in a remote then they went full steam with the app and that was the end of that. This isn’t anything new MTH had plans a few York’s back to phase out the remote.  

Questioner?  Wonder who the half dozen were?

Last edited by josef
PJB posted:

 

A few thoughts:

My twin middle school age sons and I prefer the remotes and own three. Like yankspride4 says: the remote puts a mental separation in between everything else and train time. 

My Nieces & nephews didn't want anything to do with the trains until they found out that they could use their tablet to run them.

Also, my wifi isn't so great from top floor of my house to my basement. Seems like MTH is possibly introducing yet another possible point of frustration in running DCS/MTH trains. 

Your home wifi doesn't have to strong to make the system work, in fact it can be non-existant. The WIU can generate its own WiFi signal which will be plenty strong near your layout for a device to connect to.

Finally, my personal smart phone gets call almost as frequently as my work phone.  And when it does, the screen changes to phone mode. What happens when two trains are about to go through a T crossing at opposite angles and at that moment my phone rings?  Crash, boom, bang!  Well, maybe MTH is smarter than I thought. This "issue" could result in more sales volumes to replace totaled trains. Heehee...

Tablets and old phones without a connection to a phone carrier are cheap, easily replaced, and readily available in all sizes for any preference. I bought two 7" RCA tablets last year from Shopko for $25 a piece.

 

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

I am a die hard android user, I have never purchased an iPhone in my life. I bought the WIU after purchasing a TIU with remote. Went home hooked everything up, whipped out my android phone and had some fun. Then, I told myself, self, it would be better for you to use your company iPad since it has a larger screen. OOOPPPSSS!!! I need t pay another $25 to access the features on my iPad! That kinda sticks IMO, I am the same person, using the same WIU to control one layout, why does it sound fair to MTH to charge me $50 to run my trains in my personal situation, I am sure others have both Android and IOS devices in their lives.

Last I checked, MTH had one remote, no matter if you are android, IOS, windows, linux, ms-dos, blackberry, palm pilot; the remote doesn't care how many engines you have, doesn't care if you like Star Wars or Star Trek, it just worked.

I am sorry but a successful business, not only grows with the times, but also caters to all possible customers not just those who decide to purchase something going forward.

How can MTH fix this? Isn't this more of a Google & Apple can't share the same app store problem?

Trust me, this isn't the only app in the world where this problem occurs.

H1000 posted:
Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

I am a die hard android user, I have never purchased an iPhone in my life. I bought the WIU after purchasing a TIU with remote. Went home hooked everything up, whipped out my android phone and had some fun. Then, I told myself, self, it would be better for you to use your company iPad since it has a larger screen. OOOPPPSSS!!! I need t pay another $25 to access the features on my iPad! That kinda sticks IMO, I am the same person, using the same WIU to control one layout, why does it sound fair to MTH to charge me $50 to run my trains in my personal situation, I am sure others have both Android and IOS devices in their lives.

Last I checked, MTH had one remote, no matter if you are android, IOS, windows, linux, ms-dos, blackberry, palm pilot; the remote doesn't care how many engines you have, doesn't care if you like Star Wars or Star Trek, it just worked.

I am sorry but a successful business, not only grows with the times, but also caters to all possible customers not just those who decide to purchase something going forward.

How can MTH fix this? Isn't this more of a Google & Apple can't share the same app store problem?

Trust me, this isn't the only app in the world where this problem occurs.

How can MTH fix this? Isn't this more of a Google & Apple can't share the same app store problem?

Easy, once someone pays the $25. the WIU features are unlocked physically in the unit itself, not the phone. Once that takes place any phone that connects to said WIU will have all the features unlocked. Its possible but as you can see, cuts the money flow.

Trust me, this isn't the only app in the world where this problem occurs.

Absolutely, I am sure it is not the first app, but of those apps with issues, do you also purchase $1500 engines and $400 control systems. As you can see the expense just seems to keep adding up. If my ringtones app that cost me $.99 doesn't work on my iPad, I honestly can complain but as you can see we aren't comparing apples to apples.

As to those of you that are buying $25.00 tablets. Please do understand one thing, those tablets are probably running and old version of Android, those older versions are usually no longer supported by Google which means security patches are also no longer being pushed out. You go ahead and place your personal info on Android 6.0 if you want but I personally would not recommend doing so, especially that once you log in to a smartphone using your credentials, google and most modern providers, tend to send all of your personal info to that device for convenience sake.

Just a little food for thought. P.s. this applies for those of you still running Windows 7. Your days of a secure environment are counted.

Last I checked, my "15 year old" remote, which is only 1 year old might I add, doesn't share this same security risk.

Easy, once someone pays the $25. the WIU features are unlocked physically in the unit itself, not the phone. Once that takes place any phone that connects to said WIU will have all the features unlocked. Its possible but as you can see, cuts the money flow.

Easier said than done... People much smarter than you and I most likely thought of this and moved on. I'll differ to GRJ's tag line: Nothing is so easy as the job you imagine someone else doing.

$25 disposable tablet - connect to the internet for 5 minutes to download the app from a gmail account (specifically made for buying and downloading the app only) with the unlock. Disconnect from the internet and connect to the WIU directly which doesn't have internet access. That tablet will only see internet again for brief periods when the app needs to be updated.  I doubt your whole life will be completely hacked in those brief periods of time from a device that is connected to a home internet connection you can trust.

My $25 tablets do not have any info on them other than the one gmail account with the app unlocked. Nothing worth stealing or hacking, not even credit card info. They were bought for one purpose, running my train apps.

I like the remote but IMHO the future is higher tech @ lower cost.  Why do I think that: because most everyone likes lower cost startup and APPs attract future generations.  It takes less hardware to run apps: ie, no remote means lower cost.  Look at the competition.  IMHO they're on the way to bluetooth  No hardware to buy at least for now, just use your phone, tablet, etc to run your engine.

The MTH wifi allows you to use a wifi enabled device to talk directly to the MTH wifi unit, and if I read the manual correctly, you can interface a WIU to multiple TIU/AIU units, the WIU is basically the network connection for those devices, so you don't have to buy multiple WIUs. You also can use your home WiFi network with a WIU, where it attaches  to your network and you talk to it via the home network (like using a wireless printer on your home network from your wifi connected device). The advantage of this for those who have wireless internet is that you can access the internet on your phone while using the MTH App, if you use the MTH direct the phone is talking only to the WIU.  I suspect going directly to the WIU is going to work better because it will be right there where you are for most of us. In the case of someone with a mega layout, you likely would be better using your home network and have a wifi booster or boosters in the basement to make sure you have a clean signal, if the MTH WIFI unit is located a distance away, or has interference, your home network might be the better option. 

As far as the expense, you don't need an expensive device to run this, you can buy Android based tablets for pretty cheap that would do fine. As far as downloading the app, if you don't have internet at home, you can always go to someplace that has free wifi like the public library, and download the app *shrug*. Put it this way, once your DCS remote breaks, you have to shell out $$$ even when they are available, and  still will likely pay a lot once they stop making them and they aren't available from MTH. In theory there could be a cottage industry to repair DCS remotes if parts are available (in theory, a scroll wheel could be hacked with a replacement one used in some other electronic gizmo), but I do suspect that DCS remotes like TMCC base units will be available out there for a while. 

 

 

Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:

  Remote will no longer be promoted and will be phased out as inventory is depleted.  The remote will be replaced with our phones and iPad.  Great business model to eliminate the cost of procuring the remote from an outside vendor for MTH.  

But not so great for those who don't own "our" smartphones or iPads.  Yes, Virginia, it's true --  there are people who choose not to have either.

H1000 posted:

Easy, once someone pays the $25. the WIU features are unlocked physically in the unit itself, not the phone. Once that takes place any phone that connects to said WIU will have all the features unlocked. Its possible but as you can see, cuts the money flow.

Easier said than done... People much smarter than you and I most likely thought of this and moved on. I'll differ to GRJ's tag line: Nothing is so easy as the job you imagine someone else doing.

$25 disposable tablet - connect to the internet for 5 minutes to download the app from a gmail account (specifically made for buying and downloading the app only) with the unlock. Disconnect from the internet and connect to the WIU directly which doesn't have internet access. That tablet will only see internet again for brief periods when the app needs to be updated.  I doubt your whole life will be completely hacked in those brief periods of time from a device that is connected to a home internet connection you can trust.

My $25 tablets do not have any info on them other than the one gmail account with the app unlocked. Nothing worth stealing or hacking, not even credit card info. They were bought for one purpose, running my train apps.

Look my friend, you asked me for a solution and I delivered. When I said "Easy" I meant it was easy to give you a response, not that implementing it would be easy. The WIU is nothing more than a WiFi hotspot. It even has an web interface, MTH can include a "License area" which when a purchase is made, fills in a code in the setting that unlocks the features, this isn't rocket science, literally just a license key or file. If it works for Windows, I think licensing can work for MTH.

If you think someone needs more than 5 min. to take your CC# you have been living under a rock my friend. Like I mentioned, your CC number is usually synced with your google account. Your $25 tablet is just the easy way into your account. I am not trying to turn anyone away from the $25 tablet, just showing you how exposing yourself in a digital world, even for 5 min. is enough exposure to possibly cause issues. Where is that security flaw in the TIU's remote?

While we may have seen this coming, I’m not a fan of the app.  I have it installed on both my iphone and iPad but rarely use it.  It works fine but if you don’t touch your phone for a few minutes you come back to a black screen and have to logon.  In another thread there was a discussion about always having to look at the app; with the remote you can feel the throttle whereas if you touch the screen in the wrong place your train is off at 80 SMPH.

Thanks but, I think I’ll pick up an extra remote.

bigkid posted:

The MTH wifi allows you to use a wifi enabled device to talk directly to the MTH wifi unit, and if I read the manual correctly, you can interface a WIU to multiple TIU/AIU units, the WIU is basically the network connection for those devices, so you don't have to buy multiple WIUs. You also can use your home WiFi network with a WIU, where it attaches  to your network and you talk to it via the home network (like using a wireless printer on your home .............................................

 

Pretty sure the bold part is 100% false.

It's been discussed here many, many times how you need a separate WIU for each TIU.  AIUs, I assume are limited only by how many you have hooked to each of the TIUs, per the normal system limitations.

-Dave

shorling posted:

I like the remote but IMHO the future is higher tech @ lower cost.  Why do I think that: because most everyone likes lower cost startup and APPs attract future generations.  It takes less hardware to run apps: ie, no remote means lower cost.  Look at the competition.  IMHO they're on the way to bluetooth  No hardware to buy at least for now, just use your phone, tablet, etc to run your engine.

No lower cost here, the TIU/WIU combo will be similarly priced to the TIU/Remote combo, exempt now you have to add a $25 fee for the premium features and a smart device of some sort. Technically speaking it will be more and before you say it, yes, we all should have phones.

Competition still has a remote and has not said they will be removing it (Legacy)

I have been considering adding DCS to my layout, and if I do so I would prefer the remote for numerous reasons stated above. (tactile buttons, removal of distractions, relaxation, etc.)

The best possible outcome of the discontinuation of the DCS Remote would be the release of the DCS Remote Mk.II

If MTH made a DCS Wi-Fi app for Microsoft Windows, it would be pretty easy for those among us who prefer a tactile controller to program inputs for controlling our trains with a wireless keyboard. (or a myriad of other PC controller hardware) This way MTH still wouldn't have to build the hardware as well as the software.

Remember when businesses put THE CUSTOMER first?

This is a slap in the face, really.  For, in so many words, all that this message conveys is that MTH wants their customers to run their trains the way that MTH wishes.  Free thought, choice, and preference of the customer be ****ed.....b/c the train of progress is leaving the station.  And the MTH conductor doesn't care who is on board or not.

In contrast, Big Orange had the decency and business acumen to create the "....run your trains in Conventional Mode, TMCC, or Legacy" philosophy.  Whatever the CUSTOMER prefers and enjoys.

On a side note, technology can be a great thing....when it works.

On a second side note, when you lose your phone or have it stolen, you now lose everyone's phone number that you have stored, the ability to text, your pictures and videos, credit or debit card information that is stored on your phone, all of the Apps that you can't somehow live without.....and now, your ability to run your trains.

Far from impressive, IMHO.........

 

 

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:
H1000 posted:

Easy, once someone pays the $25. the WIU features are unlocked physically in the unit itself, not the phone. Once that takes place any phone that connects to said WIU will have all the features unlocked. Its possible but as you can see, cuts the money flow.

Easier said than done... People much smarter than you and I most likely thought of this and moved on. I'll differ to GRJ's tag line: Nothing is so easy as the job you imagine someone else doing.

$25 disposable tablet - connect to the internet for 5 minutes to download the app from a gmail account (specifically made for buying and downloading the app only) with the unlock. Disconnect from the internet and connect to the WIU directly which doesn't have internet access. That tablet will only see internet again for brief periods when the app needs to be updated.  I doubt your whole life will be completely hacked in those brief periods of time from a device that is connected to a home internet connection you can trust.

My $25 tablets do not have any info on them other than the one gmail account with the app unlocked. Nothing worth stealing or hacking, not even credit card info. They were bought for one purpose, running my train apps.

Look my friend, you asked me for a solution and I delivered. When I said "Easy" I meant it was easy to give you a response, not that implementing it would be easy. The WIU is nothing more than a WiFi hotspot. It even has an web interface, MTH can include a "License area" which when a purchase is made, fills in a code in the setting that unlocks the features, this isn't rocket science, literally just a license key or file. If it works for Windows, I think licensing can work for MTH.

If you think someone needs more than 5 min. to take your CC# you have been living under a rock my friend. Like I mentioned, your CC number is usually synced with your google account. Your $25 tablet is just the easy way into your account. I am not trying to turn anyone away from the $25 tablet, just showing you how exposing yourself in a digital world, even for 5 min. is enough exposure to possibly cause issues. Where is that security flaw in the TIU's remote?

You trusted google with your Credit Card Number!!! Yesh...

I went to Walmart an bought a prepaid Google app card, and applied to the account long before I even bought my cheapo tablets. Again what are they going to steal? A depleted google app balance of $0.01? Maybe they send spam to account I don't use... gmail accounts are disposable, make one (or hundreds) for disposable purposes and keep one secure for your real life.

I don't think MTH wanted to invent their own licensing scheme when Google & Apple both have ways of implementing the very feature they wanted. This is MTH, not Micro$oft and they don't have the technical (or most likely the financial) resources to implement a licensing feature in this fashion. Look at how long and how much MS has spent doing so and it still doesn't work perfectly.

Last edited by H1000

MTH gets to move on sometime right?  I'm not saying we have to like it but such is life. 

I see Mario's has new DCS remotes for $150 delivered ($165, -$15 coupon).  If you want to remain in absolute stasis with your control system in perpetuity, get a new DCS remote(s) now and stash it.  Should be some used ones floating around if you want them cheaper.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I keep hearing about running this on your tablet.  However, I've yet to see anyone that can actually do that one-handed, a mode I use all the time with the remote. 

When I use the tablet, it takes two hands.  A lot of actions seem quicker to me using the remote.   Also, did I miss it: I've haven't seen anything yet that I would consider official from MTH on this subject ?

H1000 posted:
Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:
H1000 posted:

Easy, once someone pays the $25. the WIU features are unlocked physically in the unit itself, not the phone. Once that takes place any phone that connects to said WIU will have all the features unlocked. Its possible but as you can see, cuts the money flow.

Easier said than done... People much smarter than you and I most likely thought of this and moved on. I'll differ to GRJ's tag line: Nothing is so easy as the job you imagine someone else doing.

$25 disposable tablet - connect to the internet for 5 minutes to download the app from a gmail account (specifically made for buying and downloading the app only) with the unlock. Disconnect from the internet and connect to the WIU directly which doesn't have internet access. That tablet will only see internet again for brief periods when the app needs to be updated.  I doubt your whole life will be completely hacked in those brief periods of time from a device that is connected to a home internet connection you can trust.

My $25 tablets do not have any info on them other than the one gmail account with the app unlocked. Nothing worth stealing or hacking, not even credit card info. They were bought for one purpose, running my train apps.

Look my friend, you asked me for a solution and I delivered. When I said "Easy" I meant it was easy to give you a response, not that implementing it would be easy. The WIU is nothing more than a WiFi hotspot. It even has an web interface, MTH can include a "License area" which when a purchase is made, fills in a code in the setting that unlocks the features, this isn't rocket science, literally just a license key or file. If it works for Windows, I think licensing can work for MTH.

If you think someone needs more than 5 min. to take your CC# you have been living under a rock my friend. Like I mentioned, your CC number is usually synced with your google account. Your $25 tablet is just the easy way into your account. I am not trying to turn anyone away from the $25 tablet, just showing you how exposing yourself in a digital world, even for 5 min. is enough exposure to possibly cause issues. Where is that security flaw in the TIU's remote?

You trusted google with your Credit Card Number!!! Yesh...

I went to Walmart an bought a prepaid Google app card, and applied to the account long before I even bought my cheapo tablets. Again what are they going to steal? A depleted google app balance of $0.01? Maybe they send spam to account I don't use... gmail accounts are disposable, make one (or hundreds) for disposable purposes and keep one secure for your real life.

I don't think MTH wanted to invent their own licensing scheme when Google & Apple both have ways of implementing the very feature they wanted. This is MTH, not Micro$oft and they don't have the technical (or most likely the financial) resources to implement a licensing feature in this fashion. Look at how long and how much MS has spent doing so and it still doesn't work perfectly.

I just choose to go the secure route and keep all of y stuff updated, to date my trust for Google has never failed me because I heed their security warnings. If the disconnected and outdated route works for you then hey, that is why they say there is an arse for every seat lmao!

I sell low voltage security equipment and some CCTV camera systems require licensing, I could have made a name drop like EXACQ or Digital Watchdog, they are no where near as large as Microsoft, and they manage to get it done, just not as cool of a name drop as Microsoft is but to the same point it doesn't mean you need to have this large staff managing this, PC's do that for us.

The scheme Google and Apple have and the route MTH currently has screw customers like myself that have multiple platforms. You seem to be my polar opposite on this subject but you have to admit at some point in time that MTH is more concerned about making money then satisfying their customers needs. If that is their philosophy, there is nothing wrong with it, put some pants on like a big boy and flat out say it, we don't care what our customers think we do what we need to survive. Then the customers can choose the paths they want to take, that is the great part about capitalism.

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:
H1000 posted:
Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:
H1000 posted:

Easy, once someone pays the $25. the WIU features are unlocked physically in the unit itself, not the phone. Once that takes place any phone that connects to said WIU will have all the features unlocked. Its possible but as you can see, cuts the money flow.

Easier said than done... People much smarter than you and I most likely thought of this and moved on. I'll differ to GRJ's tag line: Nothing is so easy as the job you imagine someone else doing.

$25 disposable tablet - connect to the internet for 5 minutes to download the app from a gmail account (specifically made for buying and downloading the app only) with the unlock. Disconnect from the internet and connect to the WIU directly which doesn't have internet access. That tablet will only see internet again for brief periods when the app needs to be updated.  I doubt your whole life will be completely hacked in those brief periods of time from a device that is connected to a home internet connection you can trust.

My $25 tablets do not have any info on them other than the one gmail account with the app unlocked. Nothing worth stealing or hacking, not even credit card info. They were bought for one purpose, running my train apps.

Look my friend, you asked me for a solution and I delivered. When I said "Easy" I meant it was easy to give you a response, not that implementing it would be easy. The WIU is nothing more than a WiFi hotspot. It even has an web interface, MTH can include a "License area" which when a purchase is made, fills in a code in the setting that unlocks the features, this isn't rocket science, literally just a license key or file. If it works for Windows, I think licensing can work for MTH.

If you think someone needs more than 5 min. to take your CC# you have been living under a rock my friend. Like I mentioned, your CC number is usually synced with your google account. Your $25 tablet is just the easy way into your account. I am not trying to turn anyone away from the $25 tablet, just showing you how exposing yourself in a digital world, even for 5 min. is enough exposure to possibly cause issues. Where is that security flaw in the TIU's remote?

You trusted google with your Credit Card Number!!! Yesh...

I went to Walmart an bought a prepaid Google app card, and applied to the account long before I even bought my cheapo tablets. Again what are they going to steal? A depleted google app balance of $0.01? Maybe they send spam to account I don't use... gmail accounts are disposable, make one (or hundreds) for disposable purposes and keep one secure for your real life.

I don't think MTH wanted to invent their own licensing scheme when Google & Apple both have ways of implementing the very feature they wanted. This is MTH, not Micro$oft and they don't have the technical (or most likely the financial) resources to implement a licensing feature in this fashion. Look at how long and how much MS has spent doing so and it still doesn't work perfectly.

I just choose to go the secure route and keep all of y stuff updated, to date my trust for Google has never failed me because I heed their security warnings. If the disconnected and outdated route works for you then hey, that is why they say there is an arse for every seat lmao!

I sell low voltage security equipment and some CCTV camera systems require licensing, I could have made a name drop like EXACQ or Digital Watchdog, they are no where near as large as Microsoft, and they manage to get it done, just not as cool of a name drop as Microsoft is but to the same point it doesn't mean you need to have this large staff managing this, PC's do that for us.

The scheme Google and Apple have and the route MTH currently has screw customers like myself that have multiple platforms. You seem to be my polar opposite on this subject but you have to admit at some point in time that MTH is more concerned about making money then satisfying their customers needs. If that is their philosophy, there is nothing wrong with it, put some pants on like a big boy and flat out say it, we don't care what our customers think we do what we need to survive. Then the customers can choose the paths they want to take, that is the great part about capitalism.

I didn't say it doesn't suck, but blame where blame is deserved. The mess described here wasn't made by MTH, it was made by Google & Apple.

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:
H1000 posted:

Easy, once someone pays the $25. the WIU features are unlocked physically in the unit itself, not the phone. Once that takes place any phone that connects to said WIU will have all the features unlocked. Its possible but as you can see, cuts the money flow.

Easier said than done... People much smarter than you and I most likely thought of this and moved on. I'll differ to GRJ's tag line: Nothing is so easy as the job you imagine someone else doing.

$25 disposable tablet - connect to the internet for 5 minutes to download the app from a gmail account (specifically made for buying and downloading the app only) with the unlock. Disconnect from the internet and connect to the WIU directly which doesn't have internet access. That tablet will only see internet again for brief periods when the app needs to be updated.  I doubt your whole life will be completely hacked in those brief periods of time from a device that is connected to a home internet connection you can trust.

My $25 tablets do not have any info on them other than the one gmail account with the app unlocked. Nothing worth stealing or hacking, not even credit card info. They were bought for one purpose, running my train apps.

Look my friend, you asked me for a solution and I delivered. When I said "Easy" I meant it was easy to give you a response, not that implementing it would be easy. The WIU is nothing more than a WiFi hotspot. It even has an web interface, MTH can include a "License area" which when a purchase is made, fills in a code in the setting that unlocks the features, this isn't rocket science, literally just a license key or file. If it works for Windows, I think licensing can work for MTH.

If you think someone needs more than 5 min. to take your CC# you have been living under a rock my friend. Like I mentioned, your CC number is usually synced with your google account. Your $25 tablet is just the easy way into your account. I am not trying to turn anyone away from the $25 tablet, just showing you how exposing yourself in a digital world, even for 5 min. is enough exposure to possibly cause issues. Where is that security flaw in the TIU's remote?

There isn't a security problem with a transformer handle either, but that doesn't mean someone has to forgo using command control to be 'safe'. If someone buys a 25 buck tablet, they can be pretty close to 100% safe as an entry device as a handheld remote is. I wouldn't recommend using a 25 buck tablet with an old version of Android and actively surfing the net, that is true, but the beauty of the WIU is it allows local wifi access, which de facto locks out the internet. When the tablet is connected to the WIU using "MTH" mode it is isolated from the internet, because the WIU does not connect to the internet itself, and that wifi MTH connection precludes the user on the tablet from connecting to an internet connected device (like the wifi router) while running the MTH app. So basically, if you buy a cheap 25 buck tablet and dedicate it to working with the MTH WIU set to "MTH" mode, it is as secure as a handheld remote. If the owner only uses internet wifi to connect to the Google play store (I am not mentioning IOS since you aren't likely to get an Apple device for that cheap, even used) and download the MTH app (and perhaps pay the upgrade fee), and from then on simply use it to run the MTH local connection, they will be 99.99% guaranteed not to be hacked, that brief window of interacting with the internet unless they access other sites is not very likely to get hacked (not to mention they likely wouldn't have anything on the device worth hacking given it is basically a mule slaved to the WIU). 

Sure, a mysterious hacker crawling around the bushes outside the user's house, could see the MTH wifi signal and try and 'hack into it' (really depends how MTH set it up, I don't know if MTH mode requires a password), in theory they might be able to connect to the MTH wifi, and somehow hack to any connected device like a tablet, but again, who would go through the effort to do that (and I don't know if you even can do that with a WIU Wifi connection, it likely is very, very limited network connection to a basic layer).  Most internet problems are caused by things like trojan horses gotten from downloading bad software, clicking on a bad link in e-mail,surfing infected sites or otherwise actively using the internet, not by mysterious hackers working backword to find your device, they through the users actions plant something on the phone that the user downloads that sends back information on the phone..and given that 25 buck tablet's only experience with the internet is going to be getting the MTH app downloaded and maybe paying for the extended features, and maybe updating the app from time to time, unless the MTH app itself gets hacked on the site (not likely, hackers generally put up an app they wrote to infect users, not hack someone else's app, not to mention I am sure that MTH at the very least makes sure the fingerprint of the MTH DCS app hasn't changed in the store).  I know enough about internet security to understand most of the risks, and downloading the MTH app (and perhaps updating it once in a while) is not a major risk. If it really freaks you out, get a copy of avg anti virus when you get the MTH app and run it before running the MTH app, and do the same thing any time you update the MTH app, get a new version of avg at the same time. 

 

FYI, if they are going to get credit card information it is more likely they will get it hacking into the back end servers at the service provider for MTH or even MTH itself.......

Someone mentioned LuCi, it doesn't allow general web access, it is there primarily (the web access) to allow updating the firmware, which is being done going directly to the MTH website via iP address and downloading new flash for the wifi module, you aren't downloading anything back to the remote device, the only download is going to be the the MTH device (the flash eprom). I am not even sure you can access the rest of the web via this interface. 

Last edited by bigkid

So - that idea I was having about "finally" getting the full DCS system (I have a Remote Commander) since I have several nice PS2, even PS3, locos just got put to bed without its supper.

I guess I'll struggle along on TMCC as long as I can, then all this stuff goes out the back door, anyway. Some of the fun just keeps getting sucked out of this hobby, bit by bit. 

H1000,

You are right, those providers came up with that method of doing business, I cant blame MTH for that.

I can blame them though for not giving the customer options. I can also blame them for knowing the Google/Apple way and not only jumping on board with it but also, not coming up with a better solution.

It's also not to late for them to fix it, but I'm sure they would rather just keep collecting $25.

I also forgot to mention that the app also has a cost to run. Ever time Google/Apple decide to come up with a new OS, guess who has to pay for an engineer to fix the app so that it can run on/conform to the new OS. So updates not only are required when MTH comes out with a new feature (the remote also would need an update in this case) but also when the OS provider decides they too want to add me features. (The remote does not).

bigkid posted:
Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:
H1000 posted:

Easy, once someone pays the $25. the WIU features are unlocked physically in the unit itself, not the phone. Once that takes place any phone that connects to said WIU will have all the features unlocked. Its possible but as you can see, cuts the money flow.

Easier said than done... People much smarter than you and I most likely thought of this and moved on. I'll differ to GRJ's tag line: Nothing is so easy as the job you imagine someone else doing.

$25 disposable tablet - connect to the internet for 5 minutes to download the app from a gmail account (specifically made for buying and downloading the app only) with the unlock. Disconnect from the internet and connect to the WIU directly which doesn't have internet access. That tablet will only see internet again for brief periods when the app needs to be updated.  I doubt your whole life will be completely hacked in those brief periods of time from a device that is connected to a home internet connection you can trust.

My $25 tablets do not have any info on them other than the one gmail account with the app unlocked. Nothing worth stealing or hacking, not even credit card info. They were bought for one purpose, running my train apps.

Look my friend, you asked me for a solution and I delivered. When I said "Easy" I meant it was easy to give you a response, not that implementing it would be easy. The WIU is nothing more than a WiFi hotspot. It even has an web interface, MTH can include a "License area" which when a purchase is made, fills in a code in the setting that unlocks the features, this isn't rocket science, literally just a license key or file. If it works for Windows, I think licensing can work for MTH.

If you think someone needs more than 5 min. to take your CC# you have been living under a rock my friend. Like I mentioned, your CC number is usually synced with your google account. Your $25 tablet is just the easy way into your account. I am not trying to turn anyone away from the $25 tablet, just showing you how exposing yourself in a digital world, even for 5 min. is enough exposure to possibly cause issues. Where is that security flaw in the TIU's remote?

There isn't a security problem with a transformer handle either, but that doesn't mean someone has to forgo using command control to be 'safe'. If someone buys a 25 buck tablet, they can be pretty close to 100% safe as an entry device as a handheld remote is. I wouldn't recommend using a 25 buck tablet with an old version of Android and actively surfing the net, that is true, but the beauty of the WIU is it allows local wifi access, which de facto locks out the internet. When the tablet is connected to the WIU using "MTH" mode it is isolated from the internet, because the WIU does not connect to the internet itself, and that wifi MTH connection precludes the user on the tablet from connecting to an internet connected device (like the wifi router) while running the MTH app. So basically, if you buy a cheap 25 buck tablet and dedicate it to working with the MTH WIU set to "MTH" mode, it is as secure as a handheld remote. If the owner only uses internet wifi to connect to the Google play store (I am not mentioning IOS since you aren't likely to get an Apple device for that cheap, even used) and download the MTH app (and perhaps pay the upgrade fee), and from then on simply use it to run the MTH local connection, they will be 99.99% guaranteed not to be hacked, that brief window of interacting with the internet unless they access other sites is not very likely to get hacked (not to mention they likely wouldn't have anything on the device worth hacking given it is basically a mule slaved to the WIU). 

Sure, a mysterious hacker crawling around the bushes outside the user's house, could see the MTH wifi signal and try and 'hack into it' (really depends how MTH set it up, I don't know if MTH mode requires a password), in theory they might be able to connect to the MTH wifi, and somehow hack to any connected device like a tablet, but again, who would go through the effort to do that (and I don't know if you even can do that with a WIU Wifi connection, it likely is very, very limited network connection to a basic layer).  Most internet problems are caused by things like trojan horses gotten from downloading bad software, clicking on a bad link in e-mail,surfing infected sites or otherwise actively using the internet, not by mysterious hackers working backword to find your device, they through the users actions plant something on the phone that the user downloads that sends back information on the phone..and given that 25 buck tablet's only experience with the internet is going to be getting the MTH app downloaded and maybe paying for the extended features, and maybe updating the app from time to time, unless the MTH app itself gets hacked on the site (not likely, hackers generally put up an app they wrote to infect users, not hack someone else's app, not to mention I am sure that MTH at the very least makes sure the fingerprint of the MTH DCS app hasn't changed in the store).  I know enough about internet security to understand most of the risks, and downloading the MTH app (and perhaps updating it once in a while) is not a major risk. If it really freaks you out, get a copy of avg anti virus when you get the MTH app and run it before running the MTH app, and do the same thing any time you update the MTH app, get a new version of avg at the same time. 

You are right, the security risk is minimum. What I was trying to point out is that the security risk for the remote and handle as you mentioned is exactly 0.

I run my layout conventionally using MTH's original hand-held for the Z4000, which hasn't been made for years and years. When it dies I'll probably go to a hand-held throttle on the end of a long cord, unless someone comes up with an aftermarket alternative.

Has anyone else ever had the feeling that each system upgrade (hardware or software) is a ransom or extortion demand? "Buy our new controls or your trains will never run again".

I'm glad I've gotten rid of what little I had of the super computer stuff.

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

H1000,

You are right, those providers came up with that method of doing business, I cant blame MTH for that.

I can blame them though for not giving the customer options. I can also blame them for knowing the Google/Apple way and not only jumping on board with it but also, not coming up with a better solution.

It's also not to late for them to fix it, but I'm sure they would rather just keep collecting $25.

I also forgot to mention that the app also has a cost to run. Ever time Google/Apple decide to come up with a new OS, guess who has to pay for an engineer to fix the app so that it can run on/conform to the new OS. So updates not only are required when MTH comes out with a new feature (the remote also would need an update in this case) but also when the OS provider decides they too want to add me features. (The remote does not).

That isn't entirely true with OS. There are times when OS are updated that an older app can run into compatibility problems, but in general unless the application is really, really old, they will run fine on new versions of the OS,they engineer some level of backwards compatibility into the OS (they aren't IBM, that used to love to upgrade OS on their mainframes then force users who wanted to upgrade to buy all new software).  If the MTH app were to use some new feature in IOS or Android, they would release a new version of it to take advantage of it, but in most cases a new OS level allows an application written to an older standard to work just fine. Not to mention that if a user is using a 'locked down' 25 buck tablet, they aren't likely to update the OS. If MTH stops supporting that version of Android or IOS, then the user may need to get a new tablet if they can't upgrade the one they have to one that is supported, but usually vendors support several levels of OS with their apps. 

Last edited by bigkid
bigkid posted:
Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

H1000,

You are right, those providers came up with that method of doing business, I cant blame MTH for that.

I can blame them though for not giving the customer options. I can also blame them for knowing the Google/Apple way and not only jumping on board with it but also, not coming up with a better solution.

It's also not to late for them to fix it, but I'm sure they would rather just keep collecting $25.

I also forgot to mention that the app also has a cost to run. Ever time Google/Apple decide to come up with a new OS, guess who has to pay for an engineer to fix the app so that it can run on/conform to the new OS. So updates not only are required when MTH comes out with a new feature (the remote also would need an update in this case) but also when the OS provider decides they too want to add me features. (The remote does not).

That isn't entirely true with OS. There are times when OS are updated that an older app can run into compatibility problems, but in general unless the application is really, really old, they will run fine on new versions of the OS,they engineer some level of backwards compatibility into the OS (they aren't IBM, that used to love to upgrade OS on their mainframes then force users who wanted to upgrade to buy all new software).  If the MTH app were to use some new feature in IOS or Android, they would release a new version of it to take advantage of it, but in most cases a new OS level allows an application written to an older standard to work just fine. Not to mention that if a user is using a 'locked down' 25 buck tablet, they aren't likely to update the OS. If MTH stops supporting that version of Android or IOS, then the user may need to get a new tablet if they can't upgrade the one they have to one that is supported, but usually vendors support several levels of OS with their apps. 

I'm sorry but you and I must have different phones, next time your phone updates immediately go into the app store and see how many apps are either pending update or within the next week will also roll out an update. compatibility is only one part of updates security patches are usually a very large part of why apps get updated. I see it all the time because my phone is part of Android beta program and every time my operating system updates shortly after all of my apps will one by one also update.

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:
bigkid posted:
Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:
H1000 posted:

Easy, once someone pays the $25. the WIU features are unlocked physically in the unit itself, not the phone. Once that takes place any phone that connects to said WIU will have all the features unlocked. Its possible but as you can see, cuts the money flow.

Easier said than done... People much smarter than you and I most likely thought of this and moved on. I'll differ to GRJ's tag line: Nothing is so easy as the job you imagine someone else doing.

$25 disposable tablet - connect to the internet for 5 minutes to download the app from a gmail account (specifically made for buying and downloading the app only) with the unlock. Disconnect from the internet and connect to the WIU directly which doesn't have internet access. That tablet will only see internet again for brief periods when the app needs to be updated.  I doubt your whole life will be completely hacked in those brief periods of time from a device that is connected to a home internet connection you can trust.

My $25 tablets do not have any info on them other than the one gmail account with the app unlocked. Nothing worth stealing or hacking, not even credit card info. They were bought for one purpose, running my train apps.

Look my friend, you asked me for a solution and I delivered. When I said "Easy" I meant it was easy to give you a response, not that implementing it would be easy. The WIU is nothing more than a WiFi hotspot. It even has an web interface, MTH can include a "License area" which when a purchase is made, fills in a code in the setting that unlocks the features, this isn't rocket science, literally just a license key or file. If it works for Windows, I think licensing can work for MTH.

If you think someone needs more than 5 min. to take your CC# you have been living under a rock my friend. Like I mentioned, your CC number is usually synced with your google account. Your $25 tablet is just the easy way into your account. I am not trying to turn anyone away from the $25 tablet, just showing you how exposing yourself in a digital world, even for 5 min. is enough exposure to possibly cause issues. Where is that security flaw in the TIU's remote?

There isn't a security problem with a transformer handle either, but that doesn't mean someone has to forgo using command control to be 'safe'. If someone buys a 25 buck tablet, they can be pretty close to 100% safe as an entry device as a handheld remote is. I wouldn't recommend using a 25 buck tablet with an old version of Android and actively surfing the net, that is true, but the beauty of the WIU is it allows local wifi access, which de facto locks out the internet. When the tablet is connected to the WIU using "MTH" mode it is isolated from the internet, because the WIU does not connect to the internet itself, and that wifi MTH connection precludes the user on the tablet from connecting to an internet connected device (like the wifi router) while running the MTH app. So basically, if you buy a cheap 25 buck tablet and dedicate it to working with the MTH WIU set to "MTH" mode, it is as secure as a handheld remote. If the owner only uses internet wifi to connect to the Google play store (I am not mentioning IOS since you aren't likely to get an Apple device for that cheap, even used) and download the MTH app (and perhaps pay the upgrade fee), and from then on simply use it to run the MTH local connection, they will be 99.99% guaranteed not to be hacked, that brief window of interacting with the internet unless they access other sites is not very likely to get hacked (not to mention they likely wouldn't have anything on the device worth hacking given it is basically a mule slaved to the WIU). 

Sure, a mysterious hacker crawling around the bushes outside the user's house, could see the MTH wifi signal and try and 'hack into it' (really depends how MTH set it up, I don't know if MTH mode requires a password), in theory they might be able to connect to the MTH wifi, and somehow hack to any connected device like a tablet, but again, who would go through the effort to do that (and I don't know if you even can do that with a WIU Wifi connection, it likely is very, very limited network connection to a basic layer).  Most internet problems are caused by things like trojan horses gotten from downloading bad software, clicking on a bad link in e-mail,surfing infected sites or otherwise actively using the internet, not by mysterious hackers working backword to find your device, they through the users actions plant something on the phone that the user downloads that sends back information on the phone..and given that 25 buck tablet's only experience with the internet is going to be getting the MTH app downloaded and maybe paying for the extended features, and maybe updating the app from time to time, unless the MTH app itself gets hacked on the site (not likely, hackers generally put up an app they wrote to infect users, not hack someone else's app, not to mention I am sure that MTH at the very least makes sure the fingerprint of the MTH DCS app hasn't changed in the store).  I know enough about internet security to understand most of the risks, and downloading the MTH app (and perhaps updating it once in a while) is not a major risk. If it really freaks you out, get a copy of avg anti virus when you get the MTH app and run it before running the MTH app, and do the same thing any time you update the MTH app, get a new version of avg at the same time. 

You are right, the security risk is minimum. What I was trying to point out is that the security risk for the remote and handle as you mentioned is exactly 0.

So is the handle on a transformer,  if we limited our choices to where risk is exactly zero, and didn't even consider risks that were let's say 99%, 98% risk free, or even higher, we wouldn't do much in life *shrug*. The risk of using an old tablet to run MTH directly is tiny, and I am speaking as someone who deals with internet security, not as a prime focus, but well aware of risks. Using internet security as a reason not to use a cheap tablet as a control for the WIU is like not going to play golf because a freak lightening storm might come up or not going fishing because you might fall in and drown or other 'freak' occurances, heck there is a lot more risk in driving a car and dying in an auto accident then the risk with this *shrug*. 

Not saying that someone should like a handheld app, I can understand why people like their remote control, just saying that the cost of a cheap tablet used simply to download the MTH app, pay the fee to get extended features, will be less than a remote and only marginally riskier then using a DCS remote. The only real risk of a cheap laptop is if you buy it from dubious sources and they have planted malware on it, but that can be worked around by running a decent anti virus program on it when you buy it, before actually doing anything with it. 

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

This just came to me, so according to most of you this change makes thing "cheaper". Old TIU and Remote control = $369.95 MSRP. The new TIU and WIU combo = $369.95 MSRP + $25 APP FEE + $25 Tablet == $420 MSRP. Now wait, isn't this supposed to be a more cost-effective solution? Did I miss something?

With a handheld you can control your trains with one hand. It has tactile buttons and wheels so you don't have to shift your eyes from your train to your touch screen.

Just as phones can cause distracted driving it can be a distraction from running trains in particular in a prototype fashion like switching moves.

Pete

Hiawatha98 posted:

If MTH made a DCS Wi-Fi app for Microsoft Windows, it would be pretty easy for those among us who prefer a tactile controller to program inputs for controlling our trains with a wireless keyboard. (or a myriad of other PC controller hardware) This way MTH still wouldn't have to build the hardware as well as the software.

Perfect solution!  I've thought about this and it would allow lots of possibilities for a physical controller!

I too, prefer the remote to the app (I have both and also a WIU). It's not my decision, but I see NO reason that MTH can not continue making the remotes? There is no added investment required, they have already invested in it's development years ago. The only cost would be the costs for production of the new batches as needed. I have also heard that the remotes can not be further expanded to add additional features, that's fine too, leave them as they are now, no changes.

FWIW, I would suggest they continue to make the current remotes and the apps. Leave the remotes as they are and continue to develop and add features to the apps. When folks start finding the apps are finally superior to the remotes they may want to stop using the remotes and switch to the apps. I think all would be happy with that idea, at least I think I would. Don't force something on us when we can still have a choice. Make us all want to switch and then discontinue the remote!  I am not very good at explaining this, but I hope you all get the idea here.

And right now I think there is still a thing or two you can only do with the remote and can't do with the app. Unless the app has been updated to add the missing features that only the remote had? I've had the app & WIU since they came out, but I haven't used the app all that much. After each try with app every so often I find that I miss my remote and go back to using it. 

Also, I am not an app programmer, but as far as iphone and android apps, don't these have to be written differently to work on each different platform (as in Windows and Mac, Mac and Linux, etc.)? I can see added costs here as you are basically maintaining two apps instead of one, if that is actually the case.

For parts, if correct on the minimums, I think a minimum order of 500 thumb wheels would sell out pretty quickly as well. I would be in for a few myself, probably a half dozen or so. I don't think they would get stuck with any left over after a month or so?

bigkid posted:
Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:
bigkid posted:
Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:
H1000 posted:

Easy, once someone pays the $25. the WIU features are unlocked physically in the unit itself, not the phone. Once that takes place any phone that connects to said WIU will have all the features unlocked. Its possible but as you can see, cuts the money flow.

Easier said than done... People much smarter than you and I most likely thought of this and moved on. I'll differ to GRJ's tag line: Nothing is so easy as the job you imagine someone else doing.

$25 disposable tablet - connect to the internet for 5 minutes to download the app from a gmail account (specifically made for buying and downloading the app only) with the unlock. Disconnect from the internet and connect to the WIU directly which doesn't have internet access. That tablet will only see internet again for brief periods when the app needs to be updated.  I doubt your whole life will be completely hacked in those brief periods of time from a device that is connected to a home internet connection you can trust.

My $25 tablets do not have any info on them other than the one gmail account with the app unlocked. Nothing worth stealing or hacking, not even credit card info. They were bought for one purpose, running my train apps.

Look my friend, you asked me for a solution and I delivered. When I said "Easy" I meant it was easy to give you a response, not that implementing it would be easy. The WIU is nothing more than a WiFi hotspot. It even has an web interface, MTH can include a "License area" which when a purchase is made, fills in a code in the setting that unlocks the features, this isn't rocket science, literally just a license key or file. If it works for Windows, I think licensing can work for MTH.

If you think someone needs more than 5 min. to take your CC# you have been living under a rock my friend. Like I mentioned, your CC number is usually synced with your google account. Your $25 tablet is just the easy way into your account. I am not trying to turn anyone away from the $25 tablet, just showing you how exposing yourself in a digital world, even for 5 min. is enough exposure to possibly cause issues. Where is that security flaw in the TIU's remote?

There isn't a security problem with a transformer handle either, but that doesn't mean someone has to forgo using command control to be 'safe'. If someone buys a 25 buck tablet, they can be pretty close to 100% safe as an entry device as a handheld remote is. I wouldn't recommend using a 25 buck tablet with an old version of Android and actively surfing the net, that is true, but the beauty of the WIU is it allows local wifi access, which de facto locks out the internet. When the tablet is connected to the WIU using "MTH" mode it is isolated from the internet, because the WIU does not connect to the internet itself, and that wifi MTH connection precludes the user on the tablet from connecting to an internet connected device (like the wifi router) while running the MTH app. So basically, if you buy a cheap 25 buck tablet and dedicate it to working with the MTH WIU set to "MTH" mode, it is as secure as a handheld remote. If the owner only uses internet wifi to connect to the Google play store (I am not mentioning IOS since you aren't likely to get an Apple device for that cheap, even used) and download the MTH app (and perhaps pay the upgrade fee), and from then on simply use it to run the MTH local connection, they will be 99.99% guaranteed not to be hacked, that brief window of interacting with the internet unless they access other sites is not very likely to get hacked (not to mention they likely wouldn't have anything on the device worth hacking given it is basically a mule slaved to the WIU). 

Sure, a mysterious hacker crawling around the bushes outside the user's house, could see the MTH wifi signal and try and 'hack into it' (really depends how MTH set it up, I don't know if MTH mode requires a password), in theory they might be able to connect to the MTH wifi, and somehow hack to any connected device like a tablet, but again, who would go through the effort to do that (and I don't know if you even can do that with a WIU Wifi connection, it likely is very, very limited network connection to a basic layer).  Most internet problems are caused by things like trojan horses gotten from downloading bad software, clicking on a bad link in e-mail,surfing infected sites or otherwise actively using the internet, not by mysterious hackers working backword to find your device, they through the users actions plant something on the phone that the user downloads that sends back information on the phone..and given that 25 buck tablet's only experience with the internet is going to be getting the MTH app downloaded and maybe paying for the extended features, and maybe updating the app from time to time, unless the MTH app itself gets hacked on the site (not likely, hackers generally put up an app they wrote to infect users, not hack someone else's app, not to mention I am sure that MTH at the very least makes sure the fingerprint of the MTH DCS app hasn't changed in the store).  I know enough about internet security to understand most of the risks, and downloading the MTH app (and perhaps updating it once in a while) is not a major risk. If it really freaks you out, get a copy of avg anti virus when you get the MTH app and run it before running the MTH app, and do the same thing any time you update the MTH app, get a new version of avg at the same time. 

You are right, the security risk is minimum. What I was trying to point out is that the security risk for the remote and handle as you mentioned is exactly 0.

So is the handle on a transformer,  if we limited our choices to where risk is exactly zero, and didn't even consider risks that were let's say 99%, 98% risk free, or even higher, we wouldn't do much in life *shrug*. The risk of using an old tablet to run MTH directly is tiny, and I am speaking as someone who deals with internet security, not as a prime focus, but well aware of risks. Using internet security as a reason not to use a cheap tablet as a control for the WIU is like not going to play golf because a freak lightening storm might come up or not going fishing because you might fall in and drown or other 'freak' occurances, heck there is a lot more risk in driving a car and dying in an auto accident then the risk with this *shrug*. 

Not saying that someone should like a handheld app, I can understand why people like their remote control, just saying that the cost of a cheap tablet used simply to download the MTH app, pay the fee to get extended features, will be less than a remote and only marginally riskier then using a DCS remote. The only real risk of a cheap laptop is if you buy it from dubious sources and they have planted malware on it, but that can be worked around by running a decent anti virus program on it when you buy it, before actually doing anything with it. 

Again, you are correct, minimal risk vs. no risk. I think we are on the same page.

eddiem posted:
Hiawatha98 posted:

If MTH made a DCS Wi-Fi app for Microsoft Windows, it would be pretty easy for those among us who prefer a tactile controller to program inputs for controlling our trains with a wireless keyboard. (or a myriad of other PC controller hardware) This way MTH still wouldn't have to build the hardware as well as the software.

Perfect solution!  I've thought about this and it would allow lots of possibilities for a physical controller!

Or a WiFi remote with all the physical buttons. The remote will take to the wiu just like a phone would. I know a cool remote came out for dcc that operates like a prototypical engine. Maybe a third party can come up with it. Just need to see what data goes from the phone to the wiu. If it can be replicated, it can be possible.

Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:
bigkid posted:
Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

H1000,

You are right, those providers came up with that method of doing business, I cant blame MTH for that.

I can blame them though for not giving the customer options. I can also blame them for knowing the Google/Apple way and not only jumping on board with it but also, not coming up with a better solution.

It's also not to late for them to fix it, but I'm sure they would rather just keep collecting $25.

I also forgot to mention that the app also has a cost to run. Ever time Google/Apple decide to come up with a new OS, guess who has to pay for an engineer to fix the app so that it can run on/conform to the new OS. So updates not only are required when MTH comes out with a new feature (the remote also would need an update in this case) but also when the OS provider decides they too want to add me features. (The remote does not).

That isn't entirely true with OS. There are times when OS are updated that an older app can run into compatibility problems, but in general unless the application is really, really old, they will run fine on new versions of the OS,they engineer some level of backwards compatibility into the OS (they aren't IBM, that used to love to upgrade OS on their mainframes then force users who wanted to upgrade to buy all new software).  If the MTH app were to use some new feature in IOS or Android, they would release a new version of it to take advantage of it, but in most cases a new OS level allows an application written to an older standard to work just fine. Not to mention that if a user is using a 'locked down' 25 buck tablet, they aren't likely to update the OS. If MTH stops supporting that version of Android or IOS, then the user may need to get a new tablet if they can't upgrade the one they have to one that is supported, but usually vendors support several levels of OS with their apps. 

I'm sorry but you and I must have different phones, next time your phone updates immediately go into the app store and see how many apps are either pending update or within the next week will also roll out an update. compatibility is only one part of updates security patches are usually a very large part of why apps get updated. I see it all the time because my phone is part of Android beta program and every time my operating system updates shortly after all of my apps will one by one also update.

But we aren't talking about a phone or tablet that will be connected to the internet, we are talking a phone that will be isolated and likely will not update anything, it can't unless attached to the internet.  Yes, app updates often are about security, as are OS updates, but the other thing to keep in mind is when an app updates after a new OS is rolled out,it is that they want to take advantage of new features in that OS, that is more likely the reason for an update.  Long before, for example, IOS rolled out IOS 10 or 11, developers for various apps were working with it, both to look for compatibility issues, but also to take advantage of new features in the  OS they can use. We have mobile apps associated with the systems I am responsible for (I do software testing for a living) and once the OS is available to developers our teams start evaluating them to see if there is anything in it that would be a neat thing for the apps, what happens with your phone is that the OS updates, then the app vendors release their apps that can take advantage of it (into beta or full mode), and users get notified unless the app is set up to auto update. In our hypothetical cheap laptop scenario, they can go on running their current OS and the MTH app, and only would have to do something if MTH released a new version that they wanted some new feature on it, at which time they either could update the app, or if the current OS was not compatible with the new MTH version, look into updating the OS or maybe at that point get a new cheap tablet that can run it that has an OS the new version supports. 

bigkid posted:
Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:
bigkid posted:
Daniel J. Gonzalez posted:

H1000,

You are right, those providers came up with that method of doing business, I cant blame MTH for that.

I can blame them though for not giving the customer options. I can also blame them for knowing the Google/Apple way and not only jumping on board with it but also, not coming up with a better solution.

It's also not to late for them to fix it, but I'm sure they would rather just keep collecting $25.

I also forgot to mention that the app also has a cost to run. Ever time Google/Apple decide to come up with a new OS, guess who has to pay for an engineer to fix the app so that it can run on/conform to the new OS. So updates not only are required when MTH comes out with a new feature (the remote also would need an update in this case) but also when the OS provider decides they too want to add me features. (The remote does not).

That isn't entirely true with OS. There are times when OS are updated that an older app can run into compatibility problems, but in general unless the application is really, really old, they will run fine on new versions of the OS,they engineer some level of backwards compatibility into the OS (they aren't IBM, that used to love to upgrade OS on their mainframes then force users who wanted to upgrade to buy all new software).  If the MTH app were to use some new feature in IOS or Android, they would release a new version of it to take advantage of it, but in most cases a new OS level allows an application written to an older standard to work just fine. Not to mention that if a user is using a 'locked down' 25 buck tablet, they aren't likely to update the OS. If MTH stops supporting that version of Android or IOS, then the user may need to get a new tablet if they can't upgrade the one they have to one that is supported, but usually vendors support several levels of OS with their apps. 

I'm sorry but you and I must have different phones, next time your phone updates immediately go into the app store and see how many apps are either pending update or within the next week will also roll out an update. compatibility is only one part of updates security patches are usually a very large part of why apps get updated. I see it all the time because my phone is part of Android beta program and every time my operating system updates shortly after all of my apps will one by one also update.

But we aren't talking about a phone or tablet that will be connected to the internet, we are talking a phone that will be isolated and likely will not update anything, it can't unless attached to the internet.  Yes, app updates often are about security, as are OS updates, but the other thing to keep in mind is when an app updates after a new OS is rolled out,it is that they want to take advantage of new features in that OS, that is more likely the reason for an update.  Long before, for example, IOS rolled out IOS 10 or 11, developers for various apps were working with it, both to look for compatibility issues, but also to take advantage of new features in the  OS they can use. We have mobile apps associated with the systems I am responsible for (I do software testing for a living) and once the OS is available to developers our teams start evaluating them to see if there is anything in it that would be a neat thing for the apps, what happens with your phone is that the OS updates, then the app vendors release their apps that can take advantage of it (into beta or full mode), and users get notified unless the app is set up to auto update. In our hypothetical cheap laptop scenario, they can go on running their current OS and the MTH app, and only would have to do something if MTH released a new version that they wanted some new feature on it, at which time they either could update the app, or if the current OS was not compatible with the new MTH version, look into updating the OS or maybe at that point get a new cheap tablet that can run it that has an OS the new version supports. 

Dude are you serious? Even if you decide to build a bomb proof shelter to run your trains and never see the outside world again MTH will have to pay a person to update their app on the App Store not on your physical device but for everyone else to use. I said that because they are saying that this change is for cost-effectiveness and since the app continuously needs to be updated even if you don't want it to be it still needs to be done that incurs a charge meaning it is not more cost-effective in some of our eyes.

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