Goodbye theater, hello layout.

Figured out how to export a picture of it so here it is in case any of you do not use anyrail...

David, I commend you with the plan to replace the home theater with a layout.  It's looks like you have a good basic start for a plan.  Having come from HO myself, always bear in mind everything takes a lot more space than you are used to.  It has been over 8 years, but I am still surprised at times how much space O gauge takes.  It is still worth it to me.

Sounds like you are having fun, which is the important thing.  Just remember you'll be potentially buying future track and control items on the second hand market, as MTH has announced that it is going out of business in six months or so.   That's not necessarily a problem, but you should be aware of the possibility if you are not, as a newbie.

I'm makin' the popcorn..... (pun intended)

Looking forward to the progress David. That will be a great space to let your BigBoy stretch it's legs.

Bob

Just for S&G’s ...see what it looks like, with 081 minimus if space permits, .....my outside main is O81 & O90 and all those big split frames like your Big Boy look right at home on those curves, ....even on O72, they can start to look silly, especially in spots where the curves double back on themselves, .....just giving some food for thought, ...looks like you’re off to a good start, ....hope you don’t mind the suggestions, but if you’re just in the planning stages, now is good time to see just how far the space permits the largest, and most gentle realistic looking curves you can, .....heck, go 100 if it allows!!...21X21 ain’t no slouch of a space,.....and if you can blow out to 81 or 90, that might leave inner room for a second main of O72, ....now your diesels will look at home and be really happy,...

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Just for S&G’s ...see what it looks like, with 081 minimus if space permits, .....my outside main is O81 & O90 and all those big split frames like your Big Boy look right at home on those curves, ....even on O72, they can start to look silly, especially in spots where the curves double back on themselves, .....just giving some food for thought, ...looks like you’re off to a good start, ....hope you don’t mind the suggestions, but if you’re just in the planning stages, now is good time to see just how far the space permits the largest, and most gentle realistic looking curves you can, .....heck, go 100 if it allows!!...21X21 ain’t no slouch of a space,.....and if you can blow out to 81 or 90, that might leave inner room for a second main of O72, ....now your diesels will look at home and be really happy,...

Pat

This is actually what I was thinking last night but glad to hear someone say it as well. I drew everything with O-72 but quickly figured out it will not follow itself through a curve so I’ll probably just start the drawing over with O-81 and see where I end up.

in anyrail, I have most of it somewhat figured out except connecting it all at the end. Meaning I drew the entire loop in about a half hour and then spent the next hour trying to get the two ends to join. I was moving things everywhere and adding and removing different size pieces. In the end, I never did get it perfect. Is there some trick to joining the open ends or is it just an acquired skill?

@Landsteiner posted:

Sounds like you are having fun, which is the important thing.  Just remember you'll be potentially buying future track and control items on the second hand market, as MTH has announced that it is going out of business in six months or so.   That's not necessarily a problem, but you should be aware of the possibility if you are not, as a newbie.

I’m aware they are finished but hoping someone somehow keeps it going. Had read once there was a plan in place to have the employees take over but who knows. I know I had one heck of a time finding a new TIU and remote.

@harmonyards posted:

Just for S&G’s ...see what it looks like, with 081 minimus if space permits, .....my outside main is O81 & O90 and all those big split frames like your Big Boy look right at home on those curves, ....even on O72, they can start to look silly, especially in spots where the curves double back on themselves, .....just giving some food for thought, ...looks like you’re off to a good start, ....hope you don’t mind the suggestions, but if you’re just in the planning stages, now is good time to see just how far the space permits the largest, and most gentle realistic looking curves you can, .....heck, go 100 if it allows!!...21X21 ain’t no slouch of a space,.....and if you can blow out to 81 or 90, that might leave inner room for a second main of O72, ....now your diesels will look at home and be really happy,...

Pat

David I agree with Pat I have the MTH Premier Class A and see the difference between 072 and the wider curves 080, 089 on my layout go wider where ever you can. It will be worth it.  Looks good so far. Will be fun to watch the progress.

I have to agree with the wider curves, I also have a lot of "big iron" including the VL-BB, several Challengers, and other scale articulated locomotives.  I have a smaller space than you do, and while I have some O72 curves, most of my curves I tried to to larger, up to around 99" diameter. Mine is a folded dogbone on two levels.

Since you have AnyRail, I attached the plan so you can take a look.

John's Layout 2020-12-27.any

The 3D image of the layout.

A couple of shots of the current progress.  Most of the main level track is down and up the grade on the right.  The second level will be over the first level loops in the foreground, I have to get all the wiring completed for the main level before putting that back on.

What the second level will be when I put it back together, hopefully in a couple of weeks.  It's fabricated, just had to remove it to finish track work on the main level.

Incredible.

Maybe an incredible concept, I'm hoping to make it reality really soon now.  Drilling holes and dropping track power wires today.

Use the widest curves possible.  Can you fit in 0120?  60" radius?  When you talk Big Boy you are looking at something that will clear off anything even near the right of way outside of the curves.

I have 0120 and 0144 curves but the best looking articulateds I have are the Lionel 2-6-6-2 steamers shorties.

On an O72 curve, the VL-BB will take out anything within 3" of the centerline on the curve.  The MTH scale BB has an even bigger reach, probably at least 3.25" from the centerline.  We got my VL-BB running on the club layout, and then I brought the MTH BB, it promptly rammed a tunnel entrance and stopped!

Well my eyes won't let me do anymore tonight (long story involving optic neuritis) but I'm learning at a geometric rate (great movie reference).

I got the overall flow more dialed in but I still need to figure out how to add inclines. I also currently have no switches or any type of a yard.

Got the theater dismantled today and inventoried so my son can start selling it all off. I honestly can't believe how much wire was used for both power and speakers (was dolby 7.1 with 3 18" subs powered from pro audio amps).

Built the first section today just for nostalgia. The rear seats of the theater sat on top of an old 4x8 ho table from years and years ago. Cut it straight down the middle and put it in the upper left corner so i now have 2x8 on one wall and 2x10 on the other. Completely useless at this point but it kind of made this "official". The dogs didn't quite know what to think of me using a circular saw in the house while wearing pajamas.

Anyways, here's where I'm at. Feel free to comment whether positive or negative. I'm happily open to suggestions. Near the chimney a hill will start for the outer 2 tracks and continue along the entire upper wall and along the left before dropping down in the lower loop. All outside curves are 82 and all inside are 72.

I like what you have put down so far!  What are your plans for sidings, crossovers, a yard, or engine facility??  You have room for a lot, but you may want to just tackle the basics and add on later.

Sorry, Mark, but I've got to disagree with you.  Setting something up as a "first try" without careful planning will result in much tearing out and re-laying later on when other items wanted or needed require adjustments.  Better to develop a concept for the layout (e.g. do you just want to watch trains run in circles no matter how big or convoluted those circles are, or do you want to "operate" a model railroad with freight and/or passenger movements?) and then "plan" how you are going to fit that concept into your available space.  Another concept to consider is whether or not you plan to model a particular prototype or will you just run what you like?  This process is called "givens and druthers," and if you search this concept you will find lists of other things you need to consider in planning.

Dave, before doing anything more, please look at books and magazine for track planning info.  I would highly recommend Track Planning for Realistic Operation as good reading, and then I would recommend looking at track plans (and related stories) developed by John Armstrong, John Allen, Byron Henderson and Frank Ellison.  The NMRA also sponsors a Layout Design SIG which might have useful info if you choose to sign up.

Good luck and happy building!

Chuck

I have to agree with Chuck here.  I'd do some more thinking on what you want to do with your RR.  Ripping up track after laying it is super annoying, I'd avoid that if you can.

Specifically, what kind of operations do you envision?  Do you want multiple trains running at the same time?  How about yard space?  Industries and/or operating accessories?  What scenery do you plan on in the long run.

I confess I don't have the optimum layout, I'm hardly a seasoned large layout builder, but I think I'm going to end up with something I'll be happy operating on.

Appreciate the feedback. I’m not entirely sure I can accurately answer these questions but I’ll try even if it’s just to get myself thinking more. Maybe I’m crazy and this is blasphemy but I don’t really care about prototypical operation or switching. Maybe because my career is in railroading and I see that every day? Who knows. I do want some storage and places to store specific trains, like let’s say my Alaska F40 with 8 coach cars.

I want to be able to run multiple trains at once but I’m more interested in having a “certain” train on the layout than I am building it in a yard. I also have no interest in “servicing” any industries. Maybe that will get boring quick and I’ll hate myself but it’s what I see in my mind when I envision this.

The one constant in model railroading is... It's your RailRoad! As long as it makes you happy, you've accomplished the goal of model railroading!

It's your railroad, so not wanting switching, prototypical operations or servicing industries is your call.

One thing I would suggest is putting in as many sidings as you think is reasonable to store engines and rolling stock on, because taking trains on and off the track can get tedious very quickly.

You might also want to consider a small turntable, roundhouse or engine shed.

@Mark Boyce posted:

I like what you have put down so far!  What are your plans for sidings, crossovers, a yard, or engine facility??  You have room for a lot, but you may want to just tackle the basics and add on later.

The best I can say I’ve come up with is to have a few switches at either end that go nowhere for now. That way I can add if needed without destroying anything. Also plan a crossover up at the top.

I'll stick by my comment because it seems to me you aren't sure what you would like in a layout.  What you just replied is what I meant by tackling the basics and add later.  However, if it was me, I would end up deciding to put the sidings or yard somewhere different and have to change the track I had already laid anyway.  I just did that very thing this summer and fall, if you want to look at the last few pages of my Blackwater Canyon Line topic.  I decided to squeeze a wye in off my mainline, where I had originally planned to just have a siding or two.  I also put in a tiny yard, where I was going to have a siding.  I pulled out the track screws, lifted the track, and rearranged things.   Since you and nearly everyone else has more room than I do, you may be able to plan things out better.  I couldn't imagine the use of the small space until I had it in 3 dimensions and others commented on it.

By all means, the more you think you want up front, all the better.  These other guys can be more of a help on a larger layout.  My 11x11 room is the largest space I have ever had to work with.

David

I am close to powering my layout! That said it’s fun to build without a plan.The freedom,the creativity the immediacy.

Whats not so fun is re work. With some of the size turns discussed here a plan is important. Think about what’s important in your kingdom.

I would not start without a plan. IMO

A bit more on the "siding" discussion.

OK- so running trains sounds like what you are about. I like your basic concept so far. Double main lines are nice. I would recommend adding a pair of long passing sidings (one on each main). This instantly doubles the number of trains you can have on the layout without the complications and switching work that yards require.

Just my two cents..... I think I've invested about ten cents so far......

Bob

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

On an O72 curve, the VL-BB will take out anything within 3" of the centerline on the curve.  The MTH scale BB has an even bigger reach, probably at least 3.25" from the centerline.  We got my VL-BB running on the club layout, and then I brought the MTH BB, it promptly rammed a tunnel entrance and stopped!

I’ve seen a MTH Big Boy make it’s own tunnel entrance, .....very indiscriminately.....it’s also quite the scene sweeper on O72.....amazing how it just doesn’t care what’s in the way,...☺️

Pat

@RSJB18 posted:

A bit more on the "siding" discussion.

OK- so running trains sounds like what you are about. I like your basic concept so far. Double main lines are nice. I would recommend adding a pair of long passing sidings (one on each main). This instantly doubles the number of trains you can have on the layout without the complications and switching work that yards require.

Just my two cents..... I think I've invested about ten cents so far......

Bob

I like the passing siding idea. I had been thinking about a yard along the pantry but a passing siding sounds great. Thanks.

Start off with all of the "big stuff" (mains, passing sidings, yards, reversing loops, etc.)  planned and detail out the "little things" later.  That's what I'm doing.  Also, it's easier when flatland railroading is the theme, as there are no hills and ridges to complicate changes later - just open space that may or may not be landscaped, in the near term.  My folded-dogbone plan has a 2-track main with reversing loop, passing/parking sidings, and a large yard with arrival/departure tracks, in 24x14/19.  The first, smallest, simplest benchwork module was completed today.  The first O-112/104 two-track main corner module is next, then another where the main drops down to pass under the main surface in the "fold".  Lots of sawdust, so far!

Frustrated a little bit tonight. Any change I make in anyrail results in an hour of finding the absolute correct pieces to put in way down the line to make what I want work. Tried to add a crossover at the “top” (per the picture) and it’s nearly impossible. It throws the connections off by a half inch or better. I know from just playing around the house and putting trains under the tree that there is more tolerance than the program is giving me. Gave up and started adding passing sidings but then the battery on the laptop died.

Might head to Lowe’s tomorrow and just start building a base. I have 16 pieces of O-72 curve track being delivered Wednesday and actually seeing the curves and the locos on it should help me quite a bit. I’m a very “physically visual” person. I look at the room, and then look at the laptop screen, and think I need to see some things in place to further inspire me. PS2 conversion for the DD40 should be here soon as well so that’s a whole other project on the list.

I had a lot of help designing my layout in SCARM mostly by DoubleDAZ Dave.  I would leave track sections close to touching, but not totally connecting knowing there was a little wiggle room.  It didn't work out exactly as his plan showed anyway with the type of problems you cite.  I don't know anything about Anyrail.  Starting to build a base table even a smaller version and putting some track down will help you just see a train run.  Then move on with a more complex plan.

Dave,

I'm in the middle of setting up our layout right now. I know the frustration of the software not lining pieces up, but I'm not sure how big of an issue it will really be for you.

We meticulously planned every section of track for our layout before we started putting track down, but there were sections in the software that didn't join up. One particular spot was almost two inches off side to side.

But gargraves track and Lionel tubular track have a lot of wiggle room, and in reality we were able to connect that siding with no issues whatsoever and you can't even tell that it wouldn't have lined up in the software.

I don't know the difference in FasTrack or the your tolerance for cutting custom lengths, but I probably wouldn't sweat a half inch in the software as long as you've got a length of track before and after to "cheat" a bit. It's harder to cheat tight curves and switches and areas around crossovers though.

Here's an image of what it looked like in the software, and then an image of what it looks like actually installed:

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

On an O72 curve, the VL-BB will take out anything within 3" of the centerline on the curve.  The MTH scale BB has an even bigger reach, probably at least 3.25" from the centerline.  We got my VL-BB running on the club layout, and then I brought the MTH BB, it promptly rammed a tunnel entrance and stopped!

This may help reinforce John's point - here's a visual of the Big Boy overhang on O72:

-Greg

Good evening David and good luck to you on your adventure!

No one else has brought this up but how dead set are you on using Realtrax? You said you had "some". Before you acquire all you will need, please give this some thought. You can easily resell it. Your choice of track is very important as it will be a sizable investment in $$, time, and effort. Once started, you are committed and it's not easy or recommended to change horses in mid stream. . There are several good choices out there, each with advantages and disadvantages. The MTH track does not look very realistic with it's wide spacing of the ties - Fastrack would be the better choice if you want plastic ballast in place. Primarily because there are so many more sizes and pieces available and it's still in production. If you like the larger scale locomotives and equipment perhaps you should consider Gargraves and Ross track systems as they are the most popular and again, come in many sizes and offer flex track. The other good choice is Atlas for scale realism and ease of construction. Perhaps pick up a few pieces of each and handle them awhile to help make a sound decision?

I fully agree with Sam.  Be sure and check out Ross Custom Switches.  A phone call with personal introduction and your layout plans would work too.  I helped several friends in Florida years ago and not one of them had so much as one complaint about Ross.  In the rare event a problem should arise, Ross will make it good!  100% good!

Note: Ross Custom Switches is a Charter O Gauge Railroading Forum Sponser, and what's best, all products are Made in the U.S.A.

A Healthy and Happy New Year everyone.

Joe

I hadn’t given any other track a thought to be honest. I have maybe 50’ of straights and 16 O72 curves on the way. Time to do some research. Thanks.

After using tubular track for years, then moving on to Fastrack, my current "forever" layout is being built with Gargraves track and Ross switches.  I can't imagine going back to the noisy plastic base Fastrack or MTH RealTrax now.  We use Atlas track at our club, but the prices made it difficult to choose for my home layout.  I do think Atlas is great track, just too expensive nowadays, and I'm not a fan of the switches.  If you consider Atlas, I'd go with Ross switches.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

After using tubular track for years, then moving on to Fastrack, my current "forever" layout is being built with Gargraves track and Ross switches.  I can't imagine going back to the noisy plastic base Fastrack or MTH RealTrax now.  We use Atlas track at our club, but the prices made it difficult to choose for my home layout.  I do think Atlas is great track, just too expensive nowadays, and I'm not a fan of the switches.  If you consider Atlas, I'd go with Ross switches.

Really liking gargraves. Think I’ll order a few pieces and see how it goes.

(edit) Have 4 pieces on the way. Will experiment and see how I like working with it and will probably just return the MTH curves I bought. Do you guys have a preferred vendor you order gargraves through? I went with legacy station just based off of google but I’m finding more and more lately that a lot of online sellers are just middlemen.

Back in 2000, I bought the Lionel UP JLC Challenger, and reworked my outer loop for O 72 curves to accommodate it. ( It had been O 42 and O 54.)  I wish I had gone with even larger curves. Here it is coming out of a turn. It makes it just fine, but doesn't look right to me.

Good luck with everything you're doing, BTW.

Got the O72 MTH track today and couldn’t resist building one curve to see the overhang. The pictures posted above definitely don’t do it justice. It’s comically bad and I’ll be trying to go bigger wherever I can.

Question on the Gargraves track. Is it preferred to lay your own curves or buy their pre curved pieces? If laying my own I would probably just make a sodden template at whatever radius I want I would think.

Having just gone through a lot of flex track, waiting on the second case of track to arrive, I can say... it depends.  I went with the flex track as I didn't want to try to chisel in granite the exact design for every piece, and if you don't, you're likely to have a lot of dimensional track left over.  Flex track allowed me to shape the curves to make things work.  I can cut to size and "tune" stuff to fit.

With that being said, it's considerably more difficult than dimensional track to lay flex track, you're bending, cutting, trimming and cleaning up the ends, installing pins, etc.  If you have a plan that lends itself to transferring from the paper (or computer) to the benchwork, dimensional track is probably the answer.

Like I said, it depends.

FWIW, my first concept was for all dimensional track, but once I saw that was going to be difficult to exactly spec for my concept, I decided to go with flex.  I'd probably be done by now with dimensional track, still laying track using the flex.