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We all know that sound – the “galled bearing” sound, something between a small screech and a slight moan. I used to believe that it was exclusively the province of metal parts, metal shaft against worn sleeve bearing, or worn sloppy gears spinning on a worn sloppy stud, type of thing. What I have discovered in working with older engines is that many times the fiber plate brush holders make that same sound. How do I know? One itty bitty teeny weeny drop of oil on the armature shaft, right where it goes thru the brush holder, and bam! Total silence. Problem is, the oil doesn’t stay put! It doesn’t take long and it’s noisy again. So I tried red n Tacky, also in very modest amounts – this works the same, but lasts a bit longer. Also the higher viscosity audibly reduces rpm by a very small amount, but it works fairly well … until now.

I have this one brush plate that just won’t quit. As you apply oil or grease, bam! Instant fix … for a few minutes. Then back to the noise! The surprise in this is that the armature seems reasonably stable in the hole, not much side play … but obviously there is enough to create this noise!

I will put a new one on order soon enough, but just before I do, does anyone know any tricks to make a more permanent bearing out of the fiber board used on these old brush plates?

The offending brush plate from a 224E shown below.

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Replacing it is the only permanent fix. The armature hole has worn too large. If you take tweezers to the armature shaft and can wiggle it at all, even a tiny amount, it needs replacing, the lube will just spin off or run down to the commutator face. I suppose if someone wanted to make a bushing to fit the worn out brushplate it can be done, but hardly worth the trouble. Lionel tried in the late seventies adding a bushing to the 2035 style beushplate, but they never repeated it.

Clean off the old oil and grease, and try Labelle 106.

I have some red N tacky loaded into a large syringe (similar to a turkey baster). Went to use a bit today on fiber whistle motor brush plate and found that the stuff near to nozzle was very thin and watery. Maybe Labelle 106 does the same thing, if so I haven't noticed it.

You'll probably wind up wanting that replacement brush plate.

Chuck Sartor posted:

Replacing it is the only permanent fix. The armature hole has worn too large. If you take tweezers to the armature shaft and can wiggle it at all, even a tiny amount, it needs replacing, the lube will just spin off or run down to the commutator face. I suppose if someone wanted to make a bushing to fit the worn out brushplate it can be done, but hardly worth the trouble. Lionel tried in the late seventies adding a bushing to the 2035 style beushplate, but they never repeated it.

I thought that was probably the case. I just measured the slop, about 4-5 thousandths, much more than my uncalibrated fingers would have guessed! I considered a bushing or even (crude, I know) an eyelet, but there really isn't much space to work with between the commutator and the brush plate or brush holders, I think something would rub!

I think a better idea would be a piece of hardened metal, drilled with the appropriate size hole, then JB Weld applied to hold the metal plate on the top surface of the brush holder. The only caveat is that there is precious little room around that hole as the brush holders are so close to the hole - exactly 1/16" from armature to each brush holder! That would take some really careful crafting - much easier to get a new plate!

Thanks Chuck

C W Burfle posted:

Clean off the old oil and grease, and try Labelle 106.

I have some red N tacky loaded into a large syringe (similar to a turkey baster). Went to use a bit today on fiber whistle motor brush plate and found that the stuff near to nozzle was very thin and watery. Maybe Labelle 106 does the same thing, if so I haven't noticed it.

You'll probably wind up wanting that replacement brush plate.

Very interesting, I have never seen Red n' Tacky separate, but that's good to know it can. I agree, I think a new plate is in order. Thanks CW!!!

shawn posted:

I don't know if there is enough room. But, you could put a bushing in. I've done this with most of my whistle tenders. I would give Jeff Kane a call. I think I bought a bunch from him just for this purpose

Funny you should mention Jeff - I wrote him earlier this evening and he replied back already with the part number and description for a brushplate bearing, 622-216. It's .001" over the diameter of my armatures, so it looks like an excellent fit and a longer lasting solution, assuming I install it correctly! I like simple!!!

622-216

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How would one go about adding a bearing to a fiber brush plate?  In particular, I am wonder about how to get the proper alignment.

Also, how would a 622 bearing be affixed?
When Lionel put metal bearing on fiber plates, I believe they typically used a flanged bearing. The Oilite site does show some 1/8 inch ID flanged bearings, ID:  .1250 -.1260

Last edited by C W Burfle
C W Burfle posted:

How would one go about adding a bearing to a fiber brush plate?  In particular, I am wonder about how to get the proper alignment.

1) Square up the plate on a drill press.

2) Drill out the bearing with an appropriate bit (in this case, a #12 bit, .1890 inch diameter).  

3) Press bushing into place.  Secure with ACC or epoxy glue.  

4) Reassemble, lubricate and run!  

In a pinch, one can simply drill out the bearing hole with a hand drill or Dremel, but precision is not guaranteed using this method.  ;-D 

Mitch 

Oilite sintered bronze is the best but I have machined shoulder bearings out of brass too or bronze from old valve guides. One problem with pre sized bearings is they will be oversize for the worn shaft. Reinforced phenolic which the brush plate is made of is pretty abrasive. If you measure the armature shaft where it contacts the plate I will bet you will find it undersize.

Pete

Last edited by Norton

1) Square up the plate on a drill press.

2) Drill out the bearing with an appropriate bit (in this case, a #12 bit, .1890 inch diameter).  

3) Press bushing into place.  Secure with ACC or epoxy glue.  

Maybe I am over thinking this.
Getting the drill bit square with the brush plate is no big deal. positioning the hole is what I was thinking about. I guess one would assume that centered on the worn hole is the correct position?
Oilite bearing are oil impregnated, will glue stick?

I saw some .125 ID flanged oilite bushing on EBay. As was pointed out earlier, they might not fit between the brush holders.

Some time ago I thought somebody wrote about using brass eyelets.

Machining my own parts is not possible for me, and I suspect for many other folks. I don't have any machine tools.

Last edited by C W Burfle
C W Burfle posted:

1) Square up the plate on a drill press.

2) Drill out the bearing with an appropriate bit (in this case, a #12 bit, .1890 inch diameter).  

3) Press bushing into place.  Secure with ACC or epoxy glue.  

Maybe I am over thinking this.
Getting the drill bit square with the brush plate is no big deal. positioning the hole is what I was thinking about. I guess one would assume that centered on the worn hole is the correct position?
Oilite bearing are oil impregnated, will glue stick?

I saw some .125 ID flanged oilite bushing on EBay. As was pointed out earlier, they might not fit between the brush holders.

Some time ago I though somebody wrote about using brass eyelets.

Machining my own parts is not possible for me, and I suspect for many other folks. I don't have any machine tools.

It's as if you guys reached out and probed my brain!! That is one of two methods I was considering, the other being to leave the armature hole as is, and just slip the bushing over the shaft  and glue in place. Not as physically strong as pushing the sleeve into the brush plate, but it might hold. I don't think I would use any super glue, too thin, might run down into places it doesn't belong. Epoxy is the ticket for me.

IMG_0501

So in an effort to see just how much room I have, between the brush holders, I used a 600-129 nylon thrust collar as a test gauge, and had to trim the edges to fit between the solder tabs. This nylon collar measures 0.212" OD. It seems to fit ok and if it were metal, wouldn't short the brushes. I think it's quite possible to flatten (Dremel) two sides of the 622-129 (metal) bearing sleeve near one end, just enough to clear the solder tabs, then glue in place with epoxy.

If I thought that epoxy would hold the nylon collar in place, I might give that a go also, just to see how it does! Nylon wouldn't be much of a bearing surface, but then neither is the fiber board Lionel used! Must not be much in the way of side loads on that shaft.

Norton - to your point, I found one very thin band of wear on the armature shaft, and it measured 0.001" smaller than the outer portion (0.024" vs. 0.025") Best I can do, measurement-wise!

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I just read through this entire topic, and am awed by the collective expertise here. Here's my 2 cents:

All these opinions assume we have the same objective. We don't.

If your objective is solely to get the armature spinning freely on its axis, then buy a new brush plate assembly (Part # 289E-23) and be done with it. Train Tender sells a used one for $3.00. Olsen's sells a new one for $9.90.  Others are probably all in the same range.

If you get satisfaction and enjoyment, however, overcoming challenges and tinkering and fashioning your own solutions, then enjoy spending a dozen hours creating a bearing for the armature axis. If you are going this route it seems like cheating to buy a bearing from Jeff. Why not bore the tip of a cheap ball point pen to an acute tolerance, cut it,  and adhere it to the brush plate? No doubt there are many items around the house which could serve equally well.

Old fiber brush plates tend to warp slightly with exposure to repeated wet and dry cycles over decades. Going to all this effort, when the foundational piece itself might not be squared,  seems a bit much.

Bottom line: do what you want and enjoy the process.

Last edited by HCSader73

Pete, et al, I just finished ordering three different bearing sleeves, one of which is shouldered and was a Lionel experiment on the 8801 Blue Comet brush plate, per Jeff. I'll get them installed later this week and will update.

In the meantime, I'm still eyeballing that nylon thrust washer and my JB Weld … 

And I will be looking at my supply of ball point pens!!

Norton posted:

No doubt Jeff will come through but if you try the nylon option, forget the JB Weld. Nothing sticks to nylon.

As for making one if you have a lathe, its a 5 minute job, not days. Probably about the same amount of time as it takes to order one from Jeff.  

Pete

Actually, while waiting for my bearings to arrive from Jeff, I amused myself by gluing a nylon thrust collar to the brush plate. Knowing that it wouldn't stick, I used the epoxy to surround and encompass the nylon washer, and it held! It totally quieted the bearing and made things run smooth as silk. Thought I'd give it a life test (short life test) before the real bearings arrive. Looky here

Pretty sure I will use the Oilite flanged bearings that should be here today, but I just had to see if this would work. It Did!

I have this engine. Have had the same problem. Replacing the brush plate did not help as the armature shaft had worn down where it goes through the plate. Ending up having to replace the armature as well. That involved pulling the wheels as there is no room to get the armature out. If your bushing idea works from Jeff let me know. I may do the same to mine which would give it a much longer life.

Chuck Sartor posted:

I tried that once and wasn't successful. There was not enough clearance between the bushing and commutator face.

And that's exactly what I'm afraid of - clearance. Therefore plan B will be to experiment with various size washers under the brush plate to provide clearance. Plan C will be using a straight bushing, pressed into an enlarged hole, even with the backside of the brush plate - then glued. I gotta believe that will work, and it should take care of Joe's issue (a worn armature where it went through the brush plate) due to the bearing's added length. If it works and it's nice and long, that should never be an issue again!

I was expecting all three types of bearings today, but something must have happened in the US mail - should have been here Tuesday, nothing today - in fact NO mail today - highly unusual. Did I miss a holiday?

GeoPeg posted:
Norton posted:

No doubt Jeff will come through but if you try the nylon option, forget the JB Weld. Nothing sticks to nylon.

Pete

Actually, while waiting for my bearings to arrive from Jeff, I amused myself by gluing a nylon thrust collar to the brush plate. Knowing that it wouldn't stick, I used the epoxy to surround and encompass the nylon washer, and it held! It totally quieted the bearing and made things run smooth as silk. Thought I'd give it a life test (short life test) before the real bearings arrive. Looky here

As it turns out, the "life testing" is an interesting experiment. So far the nylon washer is doing a super job - no increase in play at all. It has developed a noticeable squeak in the past few hours. I re-oiled everything, even the tread and flanges on the wheels! No change. I removed both connecting driver rods - still squeaking. Finally I remembered that this thing has pickup rollers - never heard them squeak before, but that's what it was. Got a lot of oil cleanup to do!

It also changed gears a couple of times, i.e. went into neutral - both times I was out of the room, so I will run it some more. I may ditch the CW-80 in favor a nice sine wave 1033 and run it all night to see if that changes anything. Hmmmm…… maybe it's that oil I put on the rollers!! 

Also quite surprisingly, no heat! I can easily touch the metal brush holders - not even warm! Of course there's almost no load since the engine is only pulling itself, but that kind of speaks to an efficient motor design - some motors seem to get hot just running with no load!

Last edited by GeoPeg

Just realized I posted this summary in the wrong thread, so here it is in the correct thread.

I got three different pairs of bearings from Jeff Kane, two were just sleeves, one longer than the other, third was a flanged bearing which was a total bust! As others were telling me, there's simply no room for a flanged bearing on this engine. But at a buck a piece, I just wanted to see for myself - it could be done, but you better have some serious machine shop skills!

I used the short ones, only slightly longer than the thickness of the brush plate - drilled 0.006" under the armature diameter, cleaned up the hole, wiped a bit of Gorilla 5 min epoxy on the inner rim of the hole and pressed in the sleeve. Looks so good you would think Lionel did it!! With the short sleeve, I found alignment was touchy - when I first assembled and screwed things down, the armature was binding. So I while the glue was still setting up, I loosened things the screws, pulled the brush plate up away from the side plate but still sitting on the shaft, and eyeballed the brush plate. It was pretty easy to see which way things needed to be tweaked. I didn't try the longer ones but will on the next install - their advantage would be easier to do a final positioning in the armature hole to get perfect alignment.

So the sleeve bushing worked great, the nylon thrust collar worked great but required careful encapsulation by the epoxy, and the flanged bearing just wouldn't fit.

A Lesson Learned: these old brush plates were assembled by sticking a solder terminal under the brush holder and installing both into the brush plate, then applying a four pronged crimp to the opposite side. While this probably made a nice tight fit at the factory, over the years the solder lug becomes loose - loose enough to cause intermittent operation of the motor in my case. Recrimping is next to impossible because of the delicate nature of the brush plate, and how close the brush holders are to the edge of the plate. Yep, broke one trying it with hand tools. Donor was in a box and it's solder lugs were tight, so the day was saved. I think with the proper crimping tool in my press, this would have been easy - not sure what that tool would be, but it is very similar to the way Lionel installed the flanged axle bearings in 600 series diesel side frames.

Thanks to all for the good ideas and recommendations! Fun stuff, these trains 

 

I think with the proper crimping tool in my press, this would have been easy - not sure what that tool would be, but it is very similar to the way Lionel installed the flanged axle bearings in 600 series diesel side frames.

I was the back bidder on a crimping tool set designed to do the brush holders on a #50 gang car brush plate. An important feature was a round bar that went into the brush holder to prevent any of the metal being displaced by the crimp from entering the brush well.
That brush plate is a little different in that the terminals are underneath the plastic plate, right next to the openings for the brushes.

Some folks create a little solder bridge between the brush holder and the solder terminal to resolve the issue you describe.

C W Burfle posted:

I think with the proper crimping tool in my press, this would have been easy - not sure what that tool would be, but it is very similar to the way Lionel installed the flanged axle bearings in 600 series diesel side frames.

I was the back bidder on a crimping tool set designed to do the brush holders on a #50 gang car brush plate. An important feature was a round bar that went into the brush holder to prevent any of the metal being displaced by the crimp from entering the brush well.
That brush plate is a little different in that the terminals are underneath the plastic plate, right next to the openings for the brushes.

Some folks create a little solder bridge between the brush holder and the solder terminal to resolve the issue you describe.

Solder bridge was Plan B, and it's done and it solved the problem.

So, was the round bar separate? Or was it part of the tool? I've never seen one

So, was the round bar separate? Or was it part of the tool? I've never seen one.

As I recall, the round bar and the blades that formed the crimp were one tool, with the blades sticking out from the sides of the bar like wings. I doubt the tool set was anything from the Lionel factory. It was probably a custom tool.

I should have captured the photos from that EBay listing. Unfortunately, I did not.

Last edited by C W Burfle
C W Burfle posted:

So, was the round bar separate? Or was it part of the tool? I've never seen one.

As I recall, the round bar and the blades that formed the crimp were one tool, with the blades sticking out from the sides of the bar like wings. I doubt the tool set was anything from the Lionel factory. It was probably a custom tool.

I should have captured the photos from that EBay listing. Unfortunately, I did not.

I had Carl at Hobby Horse make a custom tool for me for in-situ side plate crimping, but it was simple, and straightforward and not expensive. That tool sounds complicated and expensive to make! Like to see a pic, but I don't think I would have one made without a significant need, like building 1,000 brush plate assemblies 

CW, I was likely the one recalled who used tiny brass grommets/hollow rivets (vintage, no source..baby shoe shoelace eyes?). Once on a brush plate, on a Marx truck, and for bobber axle bearings after the original holes oblonged ... somewhere else too that I'm forgetting, I'm sure. I'll recall better if they fail

Handy little grommets   (thanks Gramps    

 

I had Carl at Hobby Horse make a custom tool for me for in-situ side plate crimping, but it was simple, and straightforward and not expensive. That tool sounds complicated and expensive to make! Like to see a pic, but I don't think I would have one made without a significant need, like building 1,000 brush plate assemblies 


I don't think the tool for crimping gang car brush plate holders was a Hobby Horse item. I imagine that whoever made it was putting together a lot of brush plate assemblies.

I'd like to know more about the tool you had Carl make for you. What does it do to what side plate?

C W Burfle posted:

By the way, I have tightened up those brush tube crimps by just deepening the crimp with a small chisel and hammer. one has to be careful not to push any material into the opening for the brush. But I guess that could be cleaned up if necessary.

Yep, one of the first "cures" I tried. Unfortunately the flat end on the pin punch must have slipped because in a blink the entire end of the fiber plate cracked clean off!

C W Burfle posted:

I had Carl at Hobby Horse make a custom tool for me for in-situ side plate crimping, but it was simple, and straightforward and not expensive. That tool sounds complicated and expensive to make! Like to see a pic, but I don't think I would have one made without a significant need, like building 1,000 brush plate assemblies 

I don't think the tool for crimping gang car brush plate holders was a Hobby Horse item. I imagine that whoever made it was putting together a lot of brush plate assemblies.

I'd like to know more about the tool you had Carl make for you. What does it do to what side plate?

If you have, like I did, a 602 Seaboard with loose side plates, re-staking the topside of the motor plate is easy-peasy - just use the cross hair tool on the topside. It's the bottom side that's a problem - there's no room to get a small anvil situated under the motor plate - in fact it's the sideplate itself that causes a problem by not allowing a "normal" size anvil in the right spot. So I had Carl make this skinny anvil

IMG_0565

and it is narrow enough to not hit other edges on the side plate, but large enough (diameter) to provide a good anvil surface. It is only useful if you have first removed the rectangular motor frame from the top plate, something most folks don't do unless replacing the worm gear. My evolved technique nowadays is to grind off the staked points on each side frame, remove them, then have full access to gears, wheels and axles, while still attached to the motor plate. Things get a wee bit squirrely when you have to remove the motor plate - it's easy to bend the soft aluminum frame, as I'm sure you're aware.

That said, the tool has found other uses in acting as an anvil for various hard-to-get-to rivets on cars.

 

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Last edited by GeoPeg

It was for the side frames - it was needed for clearance issues when using a press.

For re-staking the top plate to the rectangular motor frame, I supported the motor frame with this

IMG_0567

Just set the frame on top, and hammer or press your way to happiness!

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I must add that I never like to hammer on my press tools, likely would get them out of round a bit!!

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I must add that I never like to hammer on my press tools, likely would get them out of round a bit!!

Hennings had a handle to hold the press tools for use with a hammer.
I have an assortment of brass and non-metallic hammers that I use with my press tools. It's been almost 35 years, and so far I have not damaged any of them.

I agree that hitting a press tool with a steel hammer is a bad idea. Even dropping a tool can create a problem. It doesn't take much to get a tool jammed in the press.

I would imagine Carl at Hobby Horse could easily make such a clincher with little effort - just need to know the rivet size and the length and diameter needed to clear the side frames - and the business end of the arbor press.

I suspect a screw in place of the rivet might not work since there is so little room topside - the screw head would likely hit the frame and cause some uneven actions in a turn. Also, I'm just not a fan of putting screws where rivets once were.

David Johnston posted:
C W Burfle posted:

that is the spot. And I guess a nice, long clincher for the other side.

Jeff Kane sells a set of long riveting tools. I think they are long enough to do that job. He has a very good machinist that makes the custom tools, but some times he gets backed up. 

Thank you. Jeff sells both Hobby Horse and his own tools. I am fairly certain the long tools he sells are Hobby Horse. I have both the Hobby Horse long Clincher set and the long anvil set. They are not long enough.

I think I used a Handrail rivet clincher last time, just held in my hand and struck with a brass hammer. The anvil was a punch chucked upside down in my wood vise. (As i write this, i realize it may have been a tool from the long clincher set)

Very Rube Goldberg.

Never strike a press tool with a steel hammer. You may create a small distortion that causes it to jam in your press. Some folks say the tool can fracture and cause injury too.

Last edited by C W Burfle

Back to the brushplate bearing topic:

Something I do that nobody has mentioned yet - I take brass tubing with 0.125 ID. I crimp the end to make a small flange on the press. Insert it snug tight with cyanoacrylate, with the flange on the inside face. I make the brass tube length slightly longer than the armature shaft. Then, I wedge a felt wick down into the tube up against the tip of the armature shaft and soak it with oil. I have a few engines, even a 313 bascule bridge that run as smooth as can motors now, and rarely need any attention.

GregR posted:

Back to the brushplate bearing topic:

Something I do that nobody has mentioned yet - I take brass tubing with 0.125 ID. I crimp the end to make a small flange on the press. Insert it snug tight with cyanoacrylate, with the flange on the inside face. I make the brass tube length slightly longer than the armature shaft. Then, I wedge a felt wick down into the tube up against the tip of the armature shaft and soak it with oil. I have a few engines, even a 313 bascule bridge that run as smooth as can motors now, and rarely need any attention.

Greg, did you happen to take any pictures along the way? Sounds ingenious, like to see it, especially the end with the small flange. Source for the tubing? Local HS, Lowe's, Amazon???

3C0BEC8B-4844-4B61-8EC7-2579AA544854
Conventional Classics GP-9 with brass tube bearing (not visible in photo) and oil wick. Brass tubing comes from local hobby shop. 
 
8B715BEE-35C4-4D63-9447-947245DC5621
313 Bascule bridge with brass tube and oil wick. 
 
9CCB3501-E813-4371-83B0-B3DEAFC38292
RC car roller bearing installed in 200 series postwar alco. Very smooth operation 
 
63152759-AC35-466D-A500-7CF15EC070D2
This bearing came from a Rhoomba robotic vacuum. When I periodically replace the spinning brushes, I save the bearings. Many end up in trains to serve a second life after being drilled to the correct diameter. 
 
GeoPeg posted:
GregR posted:

Back to the brushplate bearing topic:

Something I do that nobody has mentioned yet - I take brass tubing with 0.125 ID. I crimp the end to make a small flange on the press. Insert it snug tight with cyanoacrylate, with the flange on the inside face. I make the brass tube length slightly longer than the armature shaft. Then, I wedge a felt wick down into the tube up against the tip of the armature shaft and soak it with oil. I have a few engines, even a 313 bascule bridge that run as smooth as can motors now, and rarely need any attention.

Greg, did you happen to take any pictures along the way? Sounds ingenious, like to see it, especially the end with the small flange. Source for the tubing? Local HS, Lowe's, Amazon???

 See above

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Last edited by GregR
GregR posted:
 
8B715BEE-35C4-4D63-9447-947245DC5621
313 Bascule bridge with brass tube and oil wick. 
 
9CCB3501-E813-4371-83B0-B3DEAFC38292
RC car roller bearing installed in 200 series postwar alco. Very smooth operation 
 
63152759-AC35-466D-A500-7CF15EC070D2
This bearing came from a Rhoomba robotic vacuum. When I periodically replace the spinning brushes, I save the bearings. Many end up in trains to serve a second life after being drilled to the correct diameter. 
 

Greg, not sure why I never responded to your last post - very ingenious! And innovative!

I just finished my first Oilite bushing installation. 

IMG_1929Back sideIMG_1932Front (Top) side

Since I don't own a drill press, I had to carefully enlarge the armature hole to 3/16" using a handheld drill - very unnerving, but it seemed to work OK. I lightly coated the interior of the new hole with epoxy then pushed the bushing in flush with the backside in order to shove any excess epoxy out the front. I then added just a little more epoxy around the front of the bushing - there is just a slight lip that extends above the brush plate surface. You can see how close the bushing is to the solder lugs. I believe the solder lugs could be trimmed a bit if absolutely needed, using a Dremel diamond blade. Immediately after installing the bushing, I assembled the brush plate without brushes, screwed everything down, and checked for armature tightness. I felt what I thought was a tiny bit of drag, so I grasped the end of the armature shaft with my needle nose pliers and applied side to side pressure in all directions to align everything - the armature now spins quite freely. So I let the glue set up then reinstalled the brushes & springs and it works like a charm. The results are really satisfying! Reduction of noise, higher rpm, and certainly less frequent need to oil. Using just the brush plate, I find myself oiling the armature hole every other time I try to run the engine 

With regard to your method where you flare the (inside) end of your brass bushing, I'm thinking that might not work with an Oilite bushing, so I'm not going to press my luck on this one. 

IMG_1936

On this old style bearing plate from a prewar whistle (2689W), Lionel used an oil wick retainer, which reduces the frequency of need for lube. But most motors I repair don't have this wick retainer which is why I want to adopt your oil wick method.

I obtained the bushing from McMaster-Carr, and it measures as you have noted, they are 1/8"ID, and 3/16"OD, and only 1/8"L - I will get some longer ones next time to try your very ingenious oil wick. So where did you get the wick material? I see Jeff Kane has wicks, just wondering if Joanne's Fabrics or Michael's might have some locally?

I am also very interested in the RC car roller bearing installation you did, I wonder if you might provide some detail on how that was done? And did you think it was worth the effort?

George

On prewar equipment I am familiar with, the little sheet metal box along side the armature shaft was called the “grease box” and was filled with grease, not felt. I do not think Lionel made much use of oilite bearings prewar. I believe their bearings were high lead bronze like C972. 

I have always wondered about the use of the felt wick with oilite bearings. In most oilite applications the bearing is supposed to provide the lubrication. 

I regularly regrease the grease boxes.  I think this is probably the first time this has been done since they are completely dry. Modern grease like red-n-tacky should last a long time in these application. I never use white lithium base grease as it turns to concrete in a year or two, providing no lasting lunrication. 

Hi David - yeah, they are grease boxes, but with an Oilite bushing in there, I would think it needs oil, not grease. And I have found the same thing you did, these are usually filled with rock hard grease that dates back to the Egyptian era! 

Your comments, "I do not think Lionel made much use of oilite bearings prewar. I believe their bearings were high lead bronze like C972. I have always wondered about the use of the felt wick with oilite bearings. In most oilite applications the bearing is supposed to provide the lubrication. 

I don't know about the lead bronze, but it sounds plausible. I found info in the service manual (Olsen's site) under "Whistles" in the Cleaning and Lubrication section where it describes applying oil directly to the "...phosphor bronze bearing (I think this is bearing number WS-7) located in the whistle chamber cover", applied externally because it is porous. I wonder if that's the same as an Oilite bearing? 

Here's a pic from that service manual, describing a very similar wick - not the same motor I modified, but similar certainly in principle.

Also, I'm not sure how well red n tacky works in this environment - you have a straight, smooth armature shaft spinning inside a glob of highly viscous grease. I think it will quickly be spun off the shaft, leaving a small, narrow hole in the grease. I don't see how it can migrate down inside the bushing? I like red n tacky for gears, because it does seem to stay directly on them for a while.

OK, stick a fork in me, I'm done!

 

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  I agree. Grease is more for gears; high pressure/temp. roller/ball bearings. Oiling will help flush debris better. Heavy machine oils are a possibility, should last in wells if clearence is tight, too.)

  Zippo wick for oil wick. A sliver of fiberglass cigarette filter. Tea light oil/fuel ''candle" wicks.

  I find red & tacky a bit thick and have been using Lubriplate Aero more in/on most the last few years. It's softer than heavy wheel bearing grease, with a 190-220° weep temp, safe lithium base, I haven't ever seen Areo get crusty.

 I also have a few plastic safe teflon lubes that I like, a thin, very light clear grease in various sqeeze tubes and brands; I'd trust it to slowly migrate down in a tiny well. T-9, Boeing's teflon dry wax spray is great, plastic safe, so far paint safe (oh, the awesomeness. Let one drop permeate a bearing, etc., let it dry 5 -10 minutes .  Looks like water stains on glass or spoon untouched; slick like graphite. Lasts .)

Plastic safe Reel-Butter oilings, Birchwood Casey Sheath metal wipe & slow but sure oil, agitate, oil, wipe for casual removing, treating, & preventing more.

'Bannana oil", good stuff else where, sometimes turns to a thick sludge on electric motors ...I'm thinking about that because it clogged a big motors wick and bearing. 

A hole is all any bushing needs for a lube boost. It doesn't hurt to have more lube on an oil-lite than I know of. It's more like some things dont need more and it's not gonna wear fast... but why not slow it more? Significant drag is about all I can imagine..but more than R&T grease?

 A tiny piece of metal/plastic/etc.. tube (hobby,pnumatic,weedwacker/etc,is all you need for a well. Maybe a dot of super glue outside of the tube.(I just saw loc-tite has a flexible/shock proof gel super glue!?!)

RC fuel plumping/fittings would make nice wells if you have/buy small tap. (& bottoming/seat angle on the bit & a bottoming tap to get "serious")

The right hole or fitting and you could force flushing bearings by spray lube nozzle-straw, or use blunt syringe geaser, squeeze oiler, etc. 

I liked where these repais went. Printers and media players, tape/VCR/cd/dvd/camera drawers/lids provide another source of all kinds of tiny bushing and bearing "wonders". (Surprisingly strong motors the size of pencil erasers etc.)

My MPC General has low profile,flat, armature end play/thrust's, ball bearings that I bet you someone interested here might like to see (there are two bearings/cages & hard washers/machine shims for arm. thrust surface races)(Fishing reels are another source of tiny goodies like these too   )

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 R.I.P CW.  😔

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