Got a fix for a noisy brush plate?

Replacing it is the only permanent fix. The armature hole has worn too large. If you take tweezers to the armature shaft and can wiggle it at all, even a tiny amount, it needs replacing, the lube will just spin off or run down to the commutator face. I suppose if someone wanted to make a bushing to fit the worn out brushplate it can be done, but hardly worth the trouble. Lionel tried in the late seventies adding a bushing to the 2035 style beushplate, but they never repeated it.

Clean off the old oil and grease, and try Labelle 106.

I have some red N tacky loaded into a large syringe (similar to a turkey baster). Went to use a bit today on fiber whistle motor brush plate and found that the stuff near to nozzle was very thin and watery. Maybe Labelle 106 does the same thing, if so I haven't noticed it.

You'll probably wind up wanting that replacement brush plate.

Chuck Sartor posted:

Replacing it is the only permanent fix. The armature hole has worn too large. If you take tweezers to the armature shaft and can wiggle it at all, even a tiny amount, it needs replacing, the lube will just spin off or run down to the commutator face. I suppose if someone wanted to make a bushing to fit the worn out brushplate it can be done, but hardly worth the trouble. Lionel tried in the late seventies adding a bushing to the 2035 style beushplate, but they never repeated it.

I thought that was probably the case. I just measured the slop, about 4-5 thousandths, much more than my uncalibrated fingers would have guessed! I considered a bushing or even (crude, I know) an eyelet, but there really isn't much space to work with between the commutator and the brush plate or brush holders, I think something would rub!

I think a better idea would be a piece of hardened metal, drilled with the appropriate size hole, then JB Weld applied to hold the metal plate on the top surface of the brush holder. The only caveat is that there is precious little room around that hole as the brush holders are so close to the hole - exactly 1/16" from armature to each brush holder! That would take some really careful crafting - much easier to get a new plate!

Thanks Chuck

C W Burfle posted:

Clean off the old oil and grease, and try Labelle 106.

I have some red N tacky loaded into a large syringe (similar to a turkey baster). Went to use a bit today on fiber whistle motor brush plate and found that the stuff near to nozzle was very thin and watery. Maybe Labelle 106 does the same thing, if so I haven't noticed it.

You'll probably wind up wanting that replacement brush plate.

Very interesting, I have never seen Red n' Tacky separate, but that's good to know it can. I agree, I think a new plate is in order. Thanks CW!!!

A new brush plate isn't very expensive.  Dr. Tinker's price for a 224 is $10.00.  Others may charge less.

I don't know if there is enough room. But, you could put a bushing in. I've done this with most of my whistle tenders. I would give Jeff Kane a call. I think I bought a bunch from him just for this purpose

shawn posted:

I don't know if there is enough room. But, you could put a bushing in. I've done this with most of my whistle tenders. I would give Jeff Kane a call. I think I bought a bunch from him just for this purpose

Funny you should mention Jeff - I wrote him earlier this evening and he replied back already with the part number and description for a brushplate bearing, 622-216. It's .001" over the diameter of my armatures, so it looks like an excellent fit and a longer lasting solution, assuming I install it correctly! I like simple!!!

How would one go about adding a bearing to a fiber brush plate?  In particular, I am wonder about how to get the proper alignment.

Also, how would a 622 bearing be affixed?
When Lionel put metal bearing on fiber plates, I believe they typically used a flanged bearing. The Oilite site does show some 1/8 inch ID flanged bearings, ID:  .1250 -.1260

C W Burfle posted:

How would one go about adding a bearing to a fiber brush plate?  In particular, I am wonder about how to get the proper alignment.

1) Square up the plate on a drill press.

2) Drill out the bearing with an appropriate bit (in this case, a #12 bit, .1890 inch diameter).  

3) Press bushing into place.  Secure with ACC or epoxy glue.  

4) Reassemble, lubricate and run!  

In a pinch, one can simply drill out the bearing hole with a hand drill or Dremel, but precision is not guaranteed using this method.  ;-D 

Mitch 

Oilite sintered bronze is the best but I have machined shoulder bearings out of brass too or bronze from old valve guides. One problem with pre sized bearings is they will be oversize for the worn shaft. Reinforced phenolic which the brush plate is made of is pretty abrasive. If you measure the armature shaft where it contacts the plate I will bet you will find it undersize.

Pete

1) Square up the plate on a drill press.

2) Drill out the bearing with an appropriate bit (in this case, a #12 bit, .1890 inch diameter).  

3) Press bushing into place.  Secure with ACC or epoxy glue.  

Maybe I am over thinking this.
Getting the drill bit square with the brush plate is no big deal. positioning the hole is what I was thinking about. I guess one would assume that centered on the worn hole is the correct position?
Oilite bearing are oil impregnated, will glue stick?

I saw some .125 ID flanged oilite bushing on EBay. As was pointed out earlier, they might not fit between the brush holders.

Some time ago I thought somebody wrote about using brass eyelets.

Machining my own parts is not possible for me, and I suspect for many other folks. I don't have any machine tools.

C W Burfle posted:

1) Square up the plate on a drill press.

2) Drill out the bearing with an appropriate bit (in this case, a #12 bit, .1890 inch diameter).  

3) Press bushing into place.  Secure with ACC or epoxy glue.  

Maybe I am over thinking this.
Getting the drill bit square with the brush plate is no big deal. positioning the hole is what I was thinking about. I guess one would assume that centered on the worn hole is the correct position?
Oilite bearing are oil impregnated, will glue stick?

I saw some .125 ID flanged oilite bushing on EBay. As was pointed out earlier, they might not fit between the brush holders.

Some time ago I though somebody wrote about using brass eyelets.

Machining my own parts is not possible for me, and I suspect for many other folks. I don't have any machine tools.

It's as if you guys reached out and probed my brain!! That is one of two methods I was considering, the other being to leave the armature hole as is, and just slip the bushing over the shaft  and glue in place. Not as physically strong as pushing the sleeve into the brush plate, but it might hold. I don't think I would use any super glue, too thin, might run down into places it doesn't belong. Epoxy is the ticket for me.

So in an effort to see just how much room I have, between the brush holders, I used a 600-129 nylon thrust collar as a test gauge, and had to trim the edges to fit between the solder tabs. This nylon collar measures 0.212" OD. It seems to fit ok and if it were metal, wouldn't short the brushes. I think it's quite possible to flatten (Dremel) two sides of the 622-129 (metal) bearing sleeve near one end, just enough to clear the solder tabs, then glue in place with epoxy.

If I thought that epoxy would hold the nylon collar in place, I might give that a go also, just to see how it does! Nylon wouldn't be much of a bearing surface, but then neither is the fiber board Lionel used! Must not be much in the way of side loads on that shaft.

Norton - to your point, I found one very thin band of wear on the armature shaft, and it measured 0.001" smaller than the outer portion (0.024" vs. 0.025") Best I can do, measurement-wise!

I just read through this entire topic, and am awed by the collective expertise here. Here's my 2 cents:

All these opinions assume we have the same objective. We don't.

If your objective is solely to get the armature spinning freely on its axis, then buy a new brush plate assembly (Part # 289E-23) and be done with it. Train Tender sells a used one for $3.00. Olsen's sells a new one for $9.90.  Others are probably all in the same range.

If you get satisfaction and enjoyment, however, overcoming challenges and tinkering and fashioning your own solutions, then enjoy spending a dozen hours creating a bearing for the armature axis. If you are going this route it seems like cheating to buy a bearing from Jeff. Why not bore the tip of a cheap ball point pen to an acute tolerance, cut it,  and adhere it to the brush plate? No doubt there are many items around the house which could serve equally well.

Old fiber brush plates tend to warp slightly with exposure to repeated wet and dry cycles over decades. Going to all this effort, when the foundational piece itself might not be squared,  seems a bit much.

Bottom line: do what you want and enjoy the process.

Pete, et al, I just finished ordering three different bearing sleeves, one of which is shouldered and was a Lionel experiment on the 8801 Blue Comet brush plate, per Jeff. I'll get them installed later this week and will update.

In the meantime, I'm still eyeballing that nylon thrust washer and my JB Weld … 

And I will be looking at my supply of ball point pens!!

No doubt Jeff will come through but if you try the nylon option, forget the JB Weld. Nothing sticks to nylon.

As for making one if you have a lathe, its a 5 minute job, not days. Probably about the same amount of time as it takes to order one from Jeff.  

Pete

HAHAHA!

Norton posted:

No doubt Jeff will come through but if you try the nylon option, forget the JB Weld. Nothing sticks to nylon.

As for making one if you have a lathe, its a 5 minute job, not days. Probably about the same amount of time as it takes to order one from Jeff.  

Pete

Actually, while waiting for my bearings to arrive from Jeff, I amused myself by gluing a nylon thrust collar to the brush plate. Knowing that it wouldn't stick, I used the epoxy to surround and encompass the nylon washer, and it held! It totally quieted the bearing and made things run smooth as silk. Thought I'd give it a life test (short life test) before the real bearings arrive. Looky here

Pretty sure I will use the Oilite flanged bearings that should be here today, but I just had to see if this would work. It Did!

I have this engine. Have had the same problem. Replacing the brush plate did not help as the armature shaft had worn down where it goes through the plate. Ending up having to replace the armature as well. That involved pulling the wheels as there is no room to get the armature out. If your bushing idea works from Jeff let me know. I may do the same to mine which would give it a much longer life.

I tried that once and wasn't successful. There was not enough clearance between the bushing and commutator face.