GP7 - What is happen? My Layout with a big problem!?? 05/23/21

Hello!

Make sure the wheels are clean, as well as the track. 

Please post the maker and model number from the box. It will aid in troubleshooting...

Tom

try removing it from the legacy and reinstall it. Also, can you run it in conventional somewhere and see if it still does it. Just a couple of ideas, second one to see if its a signal problem, and I would do that first

@Krieglok posted:

Hello!

Make sure the wheels are clean, as well as the track. 

Please post the maker and model number from the box. It will aid in troubleshooting...

Tom

Hi, This number is 6-28570 !

Thanks!

@rtraincollector posted:

try removing it from the legacy and reinstall it. Also, can you run it in conventional somewhere and see if it still does it. Just a couple of ideas, second one to see if its a signal problem, and I would do that first

Hi, I did the test and in mode conventional is perfect !

So where I did the test in legacy again I touch an antenna and for my surprise it works !!! 

Please look my video !

I thought in to disassemble every the locomotive for look fail or other problem ! 

follow the antenna wire and see if it may be loose from the mainboard. this is definitely a signal problem

@rtraincollector posted:

follow the antenna wire and see if it may be loose from the mainboard. this is definitely a signal problem

1. The solder joint, wire to the antenna plate, could also be the problem. 

2. You could have a ground plane problem.  The layout, rail part of the signal system, that supplies the signal, could be the problem.  Easy to check with another TMCC engine/unit.  

HEY Leandro ,

Don't know how to help with locating the problem🤔,.......but excellent video on the operation of the problem engine and the subsequent video on how you could make it temporarily work.    We need good videos and engine numbers like your post.

Good luck 🙄

May be a ground plane issue as mentioned above.  Do you have track under the track where your video shows the test.  If you do, move engine to track area where no other track is above or below & test your engine.  If it works ok, you have a ground plane issue.  I had this problem with a couple engines, not all, placed fingers on cab & no problem.  Fix: I installed aluminum foil tape under upper level plywood, problem solved.  You can use aluminum foil also.  Signals get confused when track is over/under another track.  There are other fixes that have been discussed on this forum, but the aluminum foil tape was the easiest fix for me.  Hope this works for you.  

@W&W posted:

May be a ground plane issue as mentioned above.  Do you have track under the track where your video shows the test.  If you do, move engine to track area where no other track is above or below & test your engine.  If it works ok, you have a ground plane issue.  I had this problem with a couple engines, not all, placed fingers on cab & no problem.  Fix: I installed aluminum foil tape under upper level plywood, problem solved.  You can use aluminum foil also.  Signals get confused when track is over/under another track.  There are other fixes that have been discussed on this forum, but the aluminum foil tape was the easiest fix for me.  Hope this works for you.  

 

Relooked you’re first video, appears engine on tracks adjacent to each other.  May be ground plane issue again. 
Test engine on different areas of your layout or test on a track outside your layout.  If it works it is a ground plane issue.  You can lay wire along track also to solve this issue.  Check OGR FORUM for ground plane issues. It’s been discussed numerous times, or someone may comment here.  It’s frustrating, but workable.

Your hand is acting as a ground when you touch the top of your engine.  Below is a diagram from lionel of your wiring. This shows two antenna connections, wonder if switching to other connection would help. 

Also check or replace the batteries in the remote.

@Mike CT posted:

1. The solder joint, wire to the antenna plate, could also be the problem. 

2. You could have a ground plane problem.  The layout, rail part of the signal system, that supplies the signal, could be the problem.  Easy to check with another TMCC engine/unit.  

 

 

Mike

Only this one has a problem. Other locomotives is normal !

Have you eliminated ground plane as the problem????

@W&W posted:

Have you eliminated ground plane as the problem????

Craig !

No yet ! Tomorrow I will check and I will test the locomotive in only flex track !

@Leandro Garcia posted:

Craig !

No yet ! Tomorrow I will check and I will test the locomotive in only flex track !

If engine works on flex track test, I’m thinking you have ground plane issues, which are weird.  Also, if using a power strip, change around positions of plugs for your cab-2, etc.  I’ve found that helps.    Where engine is having problem, if you have aluminum foil, hold a piece between tracks, see what happens.  Good luck.

@Leandro Garcia posted:

Mike

Only this one has a problem. Other locomotives is normal !

 

Not uncommon. Typically a ground plane issue will effect the locomotive with the weakest antenna. This isn't saying theres anything wrong with the locomotive. I.E.  steamers are less likely to have this issue because they have stronger antennas using the long handrails along the boiler.

Heres an informative video done by Mike Reagan about the ground plane issue. Go To the 12:36 mark:

@RickO posted:

Not uncommon. Typically a ground plane issue will effect the locomotive with the weakest antenna. This isn't saying theres anything wrong with the locomotive. I.E.  steamers are less likely to have this issue because they have stronger antennas using the long handrails along the boiler.

Heres an informative video done by Mike Reagan about the ground plane issue. Go To the 12:36 mark:

Agree with RickO, my experience with the ground plane issue only a couple engines had a problem.   You can just hold your hand over the top of engine, not touching, where engine stops and it will start moving.   Dependent on layout, you may have ground plane issue(s) in certain areas or none.  Various solutions fix the problem on each layout, as stated in Mike’s video.   My fix of aluminum foil tape placed on underside of plywood on upper track works.  Did not put directly under track, since track had been installed.  Also, move your command base plug in power strip if used, see if that helps.

@RickO posted:

               I.E.  steamers are less likely to have this issue because they have stronger antennas using the long handrails along the boiler.

 

 

Hey guys ,

Would it be possible to use a jumper wire from the internal antenna connected to the handrails  ( assuming they are metal  ) on the loco shell to help with the issue ?  🤔

Atlas SW9's had a very small antenna piece.  Eventually the antenna was moved, to the roof of the plastic cab, and made much larger.  

TAS (Train America Studio) TMCC upgrade kits had a copper foil, sticky-back, piece that was to be used for the antenna. 

Original TMCC antenna, metal angle plate, lower picture center in front of the Engineer. 

My Atlas GP7 has a stick-backed foil antenna, the last part to be crammed under the shell.  Designed to attach to the top of the plastic engine shell, I left the peal-off on.  It's with the rest of the interesting wire mess.  Works fine. 

Last time I had significant signal problems, all engines, I had done an extensive ballast/ground cover application with diluted white glue.  It took several weeks for the glue to dry.   Signal strength did return  

Leandro, sure looks like it could be a signal issue, as others have said. Particularly if holding your hand over the engine makes it run normally. Is it affected in other areas of the layout, or only that location?

The fact that it runs fine in conventional mode also sounds like signal/antenna trouble.

Very nice looking layout and trestlework by the way. Looking good!

Rod

@Rod Stewart posted:

Leandro, sure looks like it could be a signal issue, as others have said. Particularly if holding your hand over the engine makes it run normally. Is it affected in other areas of the layout, or only that location?

The fact that it runs fine in conventional mode also sounds like signal/antenna trouble.

Very nice looking layout and trestlework by the way. Looking good!

Rod

Rod

Yes other areas of the layout also same problem.

I hope today I get to do all test it discussed this topic.

Thanks

Leandro, another thing you can try is attach a short piece of wire, something like a test lead with an alligator clip to the antenna plate. If the engine works with that, that is pretty conclusive that you have an antenna problem. A couple of times I have permanently fixed this problem by soldering a 15-20 cm long piece of very light wire to the antenna plate, and taping it up inside the plastic shell or wherever it fits. Usually on a diesel you can only use the handrails as an antenna if they are attached to the plastic shell only. If attached to the frame plate, they are grounded, and will not work as an antenna of course.

Rod

@Dallas Joseph posted:

Hey guys ,

Would it be possible to use a jumper wire from the internal antenna connected to the handrails  ( assuming they are metal  ) on the loco shell to help with the issue ?  🤔

@Rod Stewart . Usually on a diesel you can only use the handrails as an antenna if they are attached to the plastic shell only. If attached to the frame plate, they are grounded, and will not work as an antenna of course.

Rod

HEY Rod ,

no big deal , but wouldn't the handrails on the steamers be grounded ? 🤤

@Dallas Joseph posted:

 

HEY Rod ,

no big deal , but wouldn't the handrails on the steamers be grounded ? 🤤

That's a very big deal Dallas. Steamer handrails that are built for TMCC or Legacy have the handrails set in insulated standoffs and entrance thimble, so that they ARE insulated from the shell. In fact one of the first things to check on a steamer that has signal problems is that the handrails are not shorted to the boiler shell.

Rod

SOOOO  Rod ,

your idea about soldering the thin wire to the antenna plate and attaching it to the inside of the plastic shell sounds like an excellent place for Leandro to start. 😉

One up-grade, to TMCC, that I did, was a very small brass, Rich Yoder, GE 44 tonner.  All brass, ???  where is there a part that is isolated/insulated that can be used as the antenna???    The antenna has been rolled, in a small rope, for some time. 

@Rod Stewart posted:

Leandro, another thing you can try is attach a short piece of wire, something like a test lead with an alligator clip to the antenna plate. If the engine works with that, that is pretty conclusive that you have an antenna problem. A couple of times I have permanently fixed this problem by soldering a 15-20 cm long piece of very light wire to the antenna plate, and taping it up inside the plastic shell or wherever it fits. Usually on a diesel you can only use the handrails as an antenna if they are attached to the plastic shell only. If attached to the frame plate, they are grounded, and will not work as an antenna of course.

Rod

Hi Guys!

Rod I did and perfect ! Thanks.

So, Should I put the wire between tracks? I don't now !

Thanks for help !

Glad you solved your problem.   My guess is you don’t need wire.    You may find another engine in the future will have a problem, deal with whatever you need to do at that time.

Yaaaaay  Leandro  🤗

Really good looking bench work .  Can't wait to see the finished layout. 🤓

Have fun and above all stay safe.

Leandro,

Since your layout is not finished it would be a good idea to run ground planes. You may have other engines in the future with he same issue and while we do regular maintenance on them have to remove the shell to add something to make it function does not makes since especially with the newer legacy engine with all the complicated wiring. 

Ground planes seem like the best surefire fix to me.

Leandro, I see you have gotten two different opinions about if you need ground plane wires or not. My opinion is don't bother installing them unless proven that you need them. If no other engienes are having trouble then I don't think you need them. 

Many tmcc and Legacy users never install them, myself included. I have several areas on my layout where tracks run over and under each other, with no problems at all. I have used tmcc and Legacy together with DCS for several years now.

Rod

My vote goes for putting in ground planes in now . Could avoid problems down the road.

@Rod Stewart posted:

Leandro, I see you have gotten two different opinions about if you need ground plane wires or not. My opinion is don't bother installing them unless proven that you need them. If no other engienes are having trouble then I don't think you need them. 

Many tmcc and Legacy users never install them, myself included. I have several areas on my layout where tracks run over and under each other, with no problems at all. I have used tmcc and Legacy together with DCS for several years now.

Rod

Rod /  Craig

Bad news! Today I went in train room and I was to do a new test and this problem back it !

I don't know that think !

I don't getting understand the real failure. Why yestardy it's good today it's not!

I'm upset now and I don't know to do !   

Thanks,

Hi Leandro; this is very strange behavior. It sounds like something has changed since you last ran the engine successfully. Has something in or on the engine changed? Has any of your track or transformer wiring changed in any way? Is the engine getting power and coming up in conventional mode? Or is it sitting dark and silent waiting for a command? Is the power supply for the Legacy base plugged into a different wall socket, or extension cord, or power bar? Is it plugged into a grounded 3 wire socket?

The reason that I ask about the Legacy power supply is that the return side of the legacy signal is provided by the ground wiring in your house wiring. So it is essential that the power supply is plugged into the correct 3 pin grounded power socket and that any extension cord is also 3 wire, so that the return signal is connected to your house ground wire.

Rod

Leandro, something else I thought of. Does Brazil use 240VAC power? And if so you are using a converter to step it down to 120 VAC, correct? If so, the converter must carry the connection from the legacy power supply ground pin (the round one) through to the ground wiring in  your house, in order for the system to work properly. Check with  your local electrician if needed to make sure this is done properly.

Rod

Votage is different, also frequency can be different.  50hz v.s. 60hz.  

HEY guys,

Don't know how this will play out but my travel info states that Sao Paulo has 127 v and 60hz.🤔

Further checking shows certain area of Sao Paulo may be working with 220v.😕

@Rod Stewart posted:

Hi Leandro; this is very strange behavior. It sounds like something has changed since you last ran the engine successfully. Has something in or on the engine changed? Has any of your track or transformer wiring changed in any way? Is the engine getting power and coming up in conventional mode? Or is it sitting dark and silent waiting for a command? Is the power supply for the Legacy base plugged into a different wall socket, or extension cord, or power bar? Is it plugged into a grounded 3 wire socket?

The reason that I ask about the Legacy power supply is that the return side of the legacy signal is provided by the ground wiring in your house wiring. So it is essential that the power supply is plugged into the correct 3 pin grounded power socket and that any extension cord is also 3 wire, so that the return signal is connected to your house ground wire.

Rod

Rod, 

Nothing did changing. I simply turn off and another day turn on and GP7 stop again!

Yes my train room is plugged into the correct 3 pin grounded power socket !

So I did other test in only one flex track with other power and to put my hands this problem fix ! Watch the video

@Rod Stewart posted:

Leandro, something else I thought of. Does Brazil use 240VAC power? And if so you are using a converter to step it down to 120 VAC, correct? If so, the converter must carry the connection from the legacy power supply ground pin (the round one) through to the ground wiring in  your house, in order for the system to work properly. Check with  your local electrician if needed to make sure this is done properly.

Rod

Rod, 

127v - 60Hz !

Ok Leandro, so it all comes back to the antenna in the GP7 is not communicating with the ground wiring in your house for some reason again. I would remove the shell once again and start there. Check all antenna connections, especially where it connects to the motherboard. I don't know what else to suggest. 

Rod

Leandro have you tried running a ground plane like the video says. I mean you seem to be following one person opinion instead of the gentleman in the video who is really the guy you should be listening too. Just because some people state they have never used them or needed the does not mean you do not or could not benefit from it.

I can tell you I am in the planning stages and will put ground planes in for this reason.

NJ Hi railer use them because they have issues with only certain engines.

@Leandro Garcia posted:

Rod /  Craig

Bad news! Today I went in train room and I was to do a new test and this problem back it !

I don't know that think !

I don't getting understand the real failure. Why yestardy it's good today it's not!

I'm upset now and I don't know to do !   

Thanks,

Believe problem is ground plane issue.  I also experienced that one day engine(s) would run fine where tracks were over/under each other in my case, another day they would show ground plane symptoms, where they stopped, I wold hold my hand over engine, it worked fine.  In video showing you ran wire along track, did engine run in that area???  If so, does not explain why it doesn’t run on isolated test track.  You should not have to touch antenna wire, just hold your hand over engine.  Move around plugs in power strip, see if it makes a difference.         I’m by no means an EXPERT on this, just making suggestions from my experiences w/ground plane issues on my layout with both steam & diesel engines of mine.  Haven’t had a problem since installing aluminum foil tape EXCEPT if I remember correctly, once I moved around plugs on my power strip to get things working.      Don’t give up, you will solve your issue.   Keep us posted..

       Put the ground plane in.  It won't hurt anything and should improve operation of the problem engine and could avoid trouble with other engines you might acquire in the future.                                                                                                 

I agree with Phil. I used to build and/or repair personal computers. I don’t recall how many times I’ve had issues with proper grounding - actually the lack there of.

Steve

You haven't began using another household item with radio or noise potential have you?  Fan, smart appliance, etc.. neighbor with short wave/CB transmitter, etc.

Could it be an interference of some kind? (Gr. Plane may shield that too, but shielding the item would be better.

As a side note, I've had processors freak out based on Y or delta high voltage before the stepdown.  Only some of them, of the same design and build batch, were sensitive to it.

Leandro,

I have to agree with the folks recommending the ground plane. I run Legacy in S gauge. I was running a pair of diesels, Legacy U-33s, there were places on my layout where I was operating them as a consist or lash-up if you prefer, and one of the locomotives would lose the signal and the other engine would continue to pull. I did add the ground plane and that solved the problem. I did at a later date also add the signal booster designed by Dale and John for added insurance.

Ray

Leandro, something else you might want to consider (in addition to the ground plane wiring and whatever else you decide to do), is a TMCC/Legacy Signal Booster distributed by gunrunnerjohn. They come as either a kit (requires soldering) or a completed product. Very easy to add into your current setup and greatly boosts the track signal. Just a thought.

Rod

Hi guys !

I 'm back !

I think it fixed the problem!
I think was a cold weld in pc board, I recover the weld, but I not win yet!
I will wait more time before winning the trophy!

Thanks for help !

Boy I hope you got it this time Leandro . 🙄  

Good job .

Hi guys!

I think that my layout should have a big problem!

Fisrt my GP7 with problem!

Now my mikado with problem, but it's diferent !

Mikado runs 1, 2 laps and the sounds stopped, but the commands is normal !

So I clic in (R) reset is sound will back !

I really I don't know what is problem!

Mr. Garcia, double check the drawbar between the loco & tender.  Make sure the infra-red (IR) emitter and receiver are lined up properly.  Other than that, I'm not sure what the problem might be.

Hey guys. Just put a buffer un that you can get from gunrunner john and it should take  care of you're  problem . I have a 2600 foot layout with several levels and it cured my problems. 

Hola  Leandro ,

I'm seeing a lot of track on your layout.  How many track connections are soldered or crimped from your power supply with 16 gauge or larger wire ? 

I use MTH's / DCS  .  On larger layouts the recommended SOLDERED or CRIMPED connections with at least 16 GAUGE WIRE should be made EVERY 20 or 25 FEET . ..........Not sure about Lionel's system.

Is there someway with Lionel's system that you can measure the voltage , amperage and signal strength at the engine as it goes around the layout when the sound drops out ?       Does this happen at certain speeds or in the same areas most of the time .  Does it happen with the smoke unit on or off ?    Are ALL the LIGHTS on the layout LEDs ?

The Mikado losing sound is now something different. 🤔

@farmerjohn posted:

Hey guys. Just put a buffer un that you can get from gunrunner john and it should take  care of you're  problem . I have a 2600 foot layout with several levels and it cured my problems. 

I got to go along with farmerjohn, this definitely sounds like a signal problem. Ground plane and signal booster should solve these issues.

Leandro, if you don't get this fixed you may get frustrated enough to quit the hobby

Ray

Hi guys, I 'm Back !

I left on the shelf for some time and last week I tried to fix my GP7 again !

The good news I found this problem oxidation in R4LC Board plug-in terminals I wiped them.
Now I don't have more the fail to run with legacy! But !!!

Bad news !
I don't know what I did because in railsounds power board the electrolytic capacitor burst and I not have more sounds!
I used the clean contact product all boards I really don't know what happened but I am going to repalce the board !

I searched in web site Lionelsupport.com I not found parts for my GP7#5101 - 6-28570 ( https://www.lionelsupport.com/...;submitButton=Search )

Now I don't to know if I buy only railsounds power boardor or twice or both railsounds 5.5 because I don't to know where was the problem!

What do you think?