Heinz Pickle Cars

Lobaugh's MOBILGAS decals were white with black outline.  I believe the real tanks were silver with black outline.

You would have thought that people LIVING at the time would have been able to get it right. And it is really hard to look at a black and white photo and guess what the colors are. Now WAS there a Mobilgas tanker painted white with black that existed, who knows! And were the crude oil tankers really silver when they began life, who knows! For that matter, the roofs of green Southern steam engines seem to verifiably NOT be oxide red, except for MAYBE one or two of the 6xxx series engines. But there sure are a lot of them painted that way as models.

The real problem I have with pickle cars is that the decals I have happen to be blue end lettering, and that should be white. I seriously do not believe that they ever put blue paint lettering on boxcar red / brown ends. And some of the cars abbreviated the word "COMPANY" as "CO" along the bottom in white while other car numbers used the whole word. The photos I have also shows that different car numbers had different lettering on the sides as to capacities on the left and car info written on the right hand panel of each side.

Another issue is that the color scheme written for the car in 1941 says that the words HEINZ VARIETIES are blue but specifically says NOT OUTLINED in white. The imported OMI cars were decaled with outlines as well as the decals I have reflect that also. 

From a printers point of view, all may be correct. There are usually more than one color version of any given design while in the print production phase. You make samples for approval. The samples are usually at least 50-100 each, but a ream wouldn't be unheard of; just enough to get the process rolling well is the goal. These variations are seldom just thrown away, but saved for use where a deviation isn't all that important; or for a different color background; for when the prime version runs low, etc..  Heinz used a large number of logos with minor variations.

Good luck with locking it down, but keep that in mind along with "a protype for everything"

And again, the old Lobaugh ad for it says that the lettering across the bottom is YELLOW on brown...and "red roof and ends", whatever that means.

Adriatic posted:

From a printers point of view, all may be correct. There are usually more than one color version of any given design while in the print production phase. You make samples for approval. The samples are usually at least 50-100 each, but a ream wouldn't be unheard of; just enough to get the process rolling well is the goal. These variations are seldom just thrown away, but saved for use where a deviation isn't all that important; or for a different color background; for when the prime version runs low, etc..  Heinz used a large number of logos with minor variations.

Good luck with locking it down, but keep that in mind along with "a protype for everything"

Probably NEVER be able to lock it down!

You know, I think someone here may have worked or works for Hienz. It was posted in the last few months if I'm not mistaken. Maybe a search and contact could get you an inside scoop?

Ok, from Leider's book, Pickle and Vinegar Makers of the Midwest, p 134.  For the H. J. Heinz series 70-80:

"The side panels other than the side sills are painted chrome yellow with the "57" in dark blue, outlines in white, the words "Heinz Varieties" in dark blue, not outlines. The side sills, end panels, and top hatches are brown and lettering is white.  The running gear is painted black."

There are several photos on pages 55-56 with color ones on page 55.

If you have any interest in the Pickle and Vinegar business and how that pertained to the RR's, then you should own this book.

Another excellent source of information on this topic is in the NMRA SIG newsletters, "Pickles in Miniature" in which detailed plans were published long ago.

mwb posted:

Ok, from Leider's book, Pickle and Vinegar Makers of the Midwest, p 134.  For the H. J. Heinz series 70-80:

"The side panels other than the side sills are painted chrome yellow with the "57" in dark blue, outlines in white, the words "Heinz Varieties" in dark blue, not outlines. The side sills, end panels, and top hatches are brown and lettering is white.  The running gear is painted black."

There are several photos on pages 55-56 with color ones on page 55.

If you have any interest in the Pickle and Vinegar business and how that pertained to the RR's, then you should own this book.

 

Another excellent source of information on this topic is in the NMRA SIG newsletters, "Pickles in Miniature" in which detailed plans were published long ago.

 

Never heard of the book. Ordered one though...Wonder where the author got his painting info.

To add insult, here is a OMI in HO scale with data lettering in white...

https://www.brasstrains.com/Br...ads-HEINZ-PICKLE-CAR

oscaletrains posted:

mwb posted:

Ok, from Leider's book, Pickle and Vinegar Makers of the Midwest, p 134.  For the H. J. Heinz series 70-80:

"The side panels other than the side sills are painted chrome yellow with the "57" in dark blue, outlines in white, the words "Heinz Varieties" in dark blue, not outlines. The side sills, end panels, and top hatches are brown and lettering is white.  The running gear is painted black."

There are several photos on pages 55-56 with color ones on page 55.

If you have any interest in the Pickle and Vinegar business and how that pertained to the RR's, then you should own this book.

 

Another excellent source of information on this topic is in the NMRA SIG newsletters, "Pickles in Miniature" in which detailed plans were published long ago.

 

Never heard of the book. Ordered one though...Wonder where the author got his painting info.

Once upon a time, you could access the Heinz archives personally and years ago this was actually done by several models, members of that NMRA SIG, and folks like Al Westerfield

Where did you get your decals???

mwb posted:

oscaletrains posted:

mwb posted:

Ok, from Leider's book, Pickle and Vinegar Makers of the Midwest, p 134.  For the H. J. Heinz series 70-80:

"The side panels other than the side sills are painted chrome yellow with the "57" in dark blue, outlines in white, the words "Heinz Varieties" in dark blue, not outlines. The side sills, end panels, and top hatches are brown and lettering is white.  The running gear is painted black."

There are several photos on pages 55-56 with color ones on page 55.

If you have any interest in the Pickle and Vinegar business and how that pertained to the RR's, then you should own this book.

 

Another excellent source of information on this topic is in the NMRA SIG newsletters, "Pickles in Miniature" in which detailed plans were published long ago.

 

Never heard of the book. Ordered one though...Wonder where the author got his painting info.

Once upon a time, you could access the Heinz archives personally and years ago this was actually done by several models, members of that NMRA SIG, and folks like Al Westerfield

Where did you get your decals???

Good question.  I think they came from Rails Unlimited also. I recall that they were meant to be for the vinegar car and pickle all on one sheet, copies of the OMI decals as far as I can tell except for the blue end lettering. I know I have a Champ set someplace but cannot locate it at the moment.

I have real photos of car 73 and 80. I wonder if there are any other photos out there of other car numbers.

The Westerfield pickle cars were an earlier style of car that this one though.

oscaletrains posted:

Good question.  I think they came from Rails Unlimited also. I recall that they were meant to be for the vinegar car and pickle all on one sheet, copies of the OMI decals as far as I can tell except for the blue end lettering. I know I have a Champ set someplace but cannot locate it at the moment.

I have real photos of car 73 and 80. I wonder if there are any other photos out there of other car numbers.

The Westerfield pickle cars were an earlier style of car that this one though.

 

Thought that Anson did those decals for Rails Unlimited?

Leider's book has photos of other cars in it; the other series of cars have slightly different lettering.  Just what series cars do these models really represent? How many panels are there on the sides? I wonder if the decals you have are really for a slightly later series of coffin pickle cars and not for the 70-80 cars?

oscaletrains posted:

mwb posted:

Ok, from Leider's book, Pickle and Vinegar Makers of the Midwest, p 134.  For the H. J. Heinz series 70-80:

"The side panels other than the side sills are painted chrome yellow with the "57" in dark blue, outlines in white, the words "Heinz Varieties" in dark blue, not outlines. The side sills, end panels, and top hatches are brown and lettering is white.  The running gear is painted black."

There are several photos on pages 55-56 with color ones on page 55.

If you have any interest in the Pickle and Vinegar business and how that pertained to the RR's, then you should own this book.

 

Another excellent source of information on this topic is in the NMRA SIG newsletters, "Pickles in Miniature" in which detailed plans were published long ago.

 

Never heard of the book. Ordered one though...Wonder where the author got his painting info.

Martin is spot on - You'll love it.  

It's a great reference book and great reading.

mwb posted:

oscaletrains posted:

Good question.  I think they came from Rails Unlimited also. I recall that they were meant to be for the vinegar car and pickle all on one sheet, copies of the OMI decals as far as I can tell except for the blue end lettering. I know I have a Champ set someplace but cannot locate it at the moment.

I have real photos of car 73 and 80. I wonder if there are any other photos out there of other car numbers.

The Westerfield pickle cars were an earlier style of car that this one though.

 

Thought that Anson did those decals for Rails Unlimited?

Leider's book has photos of other cars in it; the other series of cars have slightly different lettering.  Just what series cars do these models really represent? How many panels are there on the sides? I wonder if the decals you have are really for a slightly later series of coffin pickle cars and not for the 70-80 cars?

Well, if Mr Anson did the these decals, they are somewhat in error.

Rule292 posted:

oscaletrains posted:

mwb posted:

Ok, from Leider's book, Pickle and Vinegar Makers of the Midwest, p 134.  For the H. J. Heinz series 70-80:

"The side panels other than the side sills are painted chrome yellow with the "57" in dark blue, outlines in white, the words "Heinz Varieties" in dark blue, not outlines. The side sills, end panels, and top hatches are brown and lettering is white.  The running gear is painted black."

There are several photos on pages 55-56 with color ones on page 55.

If you have any interest in the Pickle and Vinegar business and how that pertained to the RR's, then you should own this book.

 

Another excellent source of information on this topic is in the NMRA SIG newsletters, "Pickles in Miniature" in which detailed plans were published long ago.

 

Never heard of the book. Ordered one though...Wonder where the author got his painting info.

Martin is spot on - You'll love it.  

It's a great reference book and great reading.

Should be a good read from the sounds of it.

According to this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrome_yellow

schcool bus yellow is "chrome yellow".  Wonder what OMI color was...

oscaletrains posted:

According to this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrome_yellow

schcool bus yellow is "chrome yellow".  Wonder what OMI color was...

Floquil supposedly has 2 matches, CSX yellow and CN yellow.  Any others?

oscaletrains posted:

mwb posted:

oscaletrains posted:

Good question.  I think they came from Rails Unlimited also. I recall that they were meant to be for the vinegar car and pickle all on one sheet, copies of the OMI decals as far as I can tell except for the blue end lettering. I know I have a Champ set someplace but cannot locate it at the moment.

I have real photos of car 73 and 80. I wonder if there are any other photos out there of other car numbers.

The Westerfield pickle cars were an earlier style of car that this one though.

 

Thought that Anson did those decals for Rails Unlimited?

Leider's book has photos of other cars in it; the other series of cars have slightly different lettering.  Just what series cars do these models really represent? How many panels are there on the sides? I wonder if the decals you have are really for a slightly later series of coffin pickle cars and not for the 70-80 cars?

Well, if Mr Anson did the these decals, they are somewhat in error.

I'm not sure that they are in error for the later series of cars - just maybe not right for the 70-80 cars

Messy workbench but I got this far on them.

http://i1074.photobucket.com/a...s7/1_zpsy1dnylxw.jpg

Hello pickle lovers 

Here is a photo of a Lobaugh  pickle car , appears to be factory built ..cheers Carey 

Carey Williams posted:

Hello pickle lovers 

Here is a photo of a Lobaugh  pickle car , appears to be factory built ..cheers Carey 

Does the other side show a car number?

This one has one. (These two?) Different paint schemes?

http://www.tcawestern.org/lobaugh.htm

http://modeltrainjournal.com/p...t=16066&start=15

Notice on the models how the HEINZ VARIETIES lettering skips the bracing?  I have two different photos of real cars that show the lettering applied ON the braces. One has the I in Heinz and the T in varieties on the bracing and the other has the Z in Heinz on a brace. Unfortunately the photos are both taken at an angle or far enough away that you can't tell the car number.

BobbyD posted:

This one has one. (These two?) Different paint schemes?

http://www.tcawestern.org/lobaugh.htm

http://modeltrainjournal.com/p...t=16066&start=15

 

I think the model on the right, car 73, is just missing lettering. Car 73 is one of the most photographed cars apparently and it is supposed to look very much like the model on the left. As for the car on the left, car 70, I don't know if it is correct or not for its number yet.

BobbyD posted:

This one has one. (These two?) Different paint schemes?

 

Those 2 are quite different - framing interior to the panels is missing on the right and the roof angles are different. Beyond the missing lettering to the right, the fonts appear different in size as well. Then there's that drunken "5" on the left.....

The photos in Lieder's book show #73 w/o lettering on the braces. A photo of #80 shows lettering on the braces.  So, within that series of cars there was an inconsistency.

Photos of 117 & 119 both show lettering on the braces; the I and T, specifically. But those cars were a later series and were 4 panel cars.  115 and 116 were 8 panel cars and also show lettering on the braces. 81 was an 8 panel car with lettering on the braces. 84 was a 6 panel car with lettering on the braces.

It might be that you need to letter for very specific car numbers

mwb posted:

BobbyD posted:

This one has one. (These two?) Different paint schemes?

 

Those 2 are quite different - framing interior to the panels is missing on the right and the roof angles are different. Beyond the missing lettering to the right, the fonts appear different in size as well. Then there's that drunken "5" on the left.....

The photos in Lieder's book show #73 w/o lettering on the braces. A photo of #80 shows lettering on the braces.  So, within that series of cars there was an inconsistency.

Photos of 117 & 119 both show lettering on the braces; the I and T, specifically. But those cars were a later series and were 4 panel cars.  115 and 116 were 8 panel cars and also show lettering on the braces. 81 was an 8 panel car with lettering on the braces. 84 was a 6 panel car with lettering on the braces.

It might be that you need to letter for very specific car numbers

I think you are right, each car number may be lettered slightly different.  I also hear that Rails Unlimited might have a Vinegar car to match these eventually.

So supposedly the car numbers for the HJHX cars were 43, 70, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78,79,80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 106, 107, 109, 110, 112, 113, 114.

Photos of the actual cars so far include car 73,  80, 81, 84, 115, 116, 117, 119.

You would think colorful cars like these would have had lots of photos taken of them.

Car number 70, looks the same as 73.

Car 73 says new 9-25. The HEINZ VARIETIES does not appear to be outlined in white and the letters skip the bracing on the car. The word COMPANY is not abbreviated on the sides. 6 panel sides.

Car number 80 also has the HEINZ VARIETIES outlined in white with the Z and the I ON the bracing, end lettering is white. The word COMPANY is abbreviated on the sides as CO. 6 panel sides.

Car number 81, same as 80

Car number 84, same as 80.

Car number 115 is pictured in the Freight Car Pictorial by Wayner on page 31. It has steel ends but still wood sides, 8 panels. It clearly has the words HEINZ VARIETIES outlined in white as well as the 57, and the I and T are placed ON the side bracing. Says it was built 10-48, end lettering is white. The word COMPANY is abbreviated on the sides as CO.

Car number 116, same as 115 except placement of the white lettering at the bottom on the side sill.

Car number 117, same as 116 but 4 panel sides.

There is one later steel end car that does have white data lettering, but can't read the car number for sure.

Interestingly, they all seem to have slight variations in the data lettering.

oscaletrains posted:

I think you are right, each car number may be lettered slightly different.  I also hear that Rails Unlimited might have a Vinegar car to match these eventually.

I scratchbuilt one years ago and the Overland car requires negotiations with my loan officer.

I wonder which vinegar car since there are a lot of varieties of those, too. I would actually buy one regardless of which prototype, particularly if it had a set of correct decals!

mwb posted:

oscaletrains posted:

mwb posted:

oscaletrains posted:

Good question.  I think they came from Rails Unlimited also. I recall that they were meant to be for the vinegar car and pickle all on one sheet, copies of the OMI decals as far as I can tell except for the blue end lettering. I know I have a Champ set someplace but cannot locate it at the moment.

I have real photos of car 73 and 80. I wonder if there are any other photos out there of other car numbers.

The Westerfield pickle cars were an earlier style of car that this one though.

 

Thought that Anson did those decals for Rails Unlimited?

Leider's book has photos of other cars in it; the other series of cars have slightly different lettering.  Just what series cars do these models really represent? How many panels are there on the sides? I wonder if the decals you have are really for a slightly later series of coffin pickle cars and not for the 70-80 cars?

Well, if Mr Anson did the these decals, they are somewhat in error.

I'm not sure that they are in error for the later series of cars - just maybe not right for the 70-80 cars

I figured out the decal sheets I have, they are correct for the vinegar car but are missing the end lettering for the pickle car.

oscaletrains posted:

I'm not sure that they are in error for the later series of cars - just maybe not right for the 70-80 cars

I figured out the decal sheets I have, they are correct for the vinegar car but are missing the end lettering for the pickle car.

That makes sense!  All the more reason to get those vinegar cars into production!

Hello all Here is the other side ...pickle #70

Carey Williams posted:

Hello all Here is the other side ...pickle #70

I am wondering if that is the first of 2 different Lobaugh versions of this car now.

oscaletrains posted:

I am wondering if that is the first of 2 different Lobaugh versions of this car now.

Now I'm getting curious about there being different Lobaugh versions - sold off the one that I had rebuilt, but somewhere on the shelf of kits I'm pretty sure that there's an unbuilt one resting quietly.  I'm going to disturb its slumber and see just what's in the box.

I had two different pickle cars. One went to Art Hayes.  I never considered the possibility that it might have been prewar Lobaugh.  Hand-painted.

Got the pickle book, but it really brings up more questions because of the difference in lettering schemes. It also makes you want more photos of different numbered cars. Out of the 27 give or take cars of this type, we still only have photos of 8 of them.

Left - Lobaugh.  Right - hand lettered.  Probably scratchbuilt - to Art in Oklahoma.

Pretty good hand lettering, if I did that it's be a mess.

Pickle Art

Are you offering decals for Standard Brands?

Gene D posted:

Are you offering decals for Standard Brands?

I was just making up some decals for the cars I am building up after sitting on them for 20 years or so, what do you mean by "standard brands"?

Gene D posted:

Are you offering decals for Standard Brands?

After a little reading, I assume you are referring to a vinegar car?

Hello Pickle people ...I was very lucky at the March Meet to find a prewar Lobaugh Heinz car ...here are the pre and post war versions ..Cheers Carey 

Nice.  Now which one, if either, is the correct color?  Since the cars existed back then, you would have hoped they knew what color to paint them.