Help picking a control system

Hi Dave!

I am planning for up to 4 simultaneous operators running single small engines on 34” diameter minimum curves.  No need for me to synchronize two engine speeds.  I won’t have ‘cruise control’ so will have to be involved with engines changing grades.  I want to maintain the ability to run one old loco at a time periodically using conventional control.  I also don’t want to break the bank, and want to keep wiring simple.  So I am running the layout using multiple variable voltage (traditional) transformers - all synched and at the same voltage.  Normal operation is set at 14VAC track power, using Lion Chief remote controllers for each engine.    Each of the 4 transformers powers a section of the single-track mainline layout.  Within each section there are switches etc, but the point is my layout is essentially a loop-to-loop - so dividing it into 4 sections is pretty straightforward.

When I want to run a conventional train, I have isolated the layout into 4 big sections, along with sidings that can be powered down/turned off.  So I run the old train using one of the conventional transformers in one of the sections.  When I’m done, I park the old loco back on its isolated track and power that siding down, return all 4 of the transformers to 14VAC, and turn on the sidings for the Lion Chief engines.

So I have local control panels with switching and rely on local uncoupling tracks or fingers.  Z-Stuff block signals work fine if your operators look at the light before barreling ahead!    Railsounds and Lion Chief sounds are good enough for me.  Also $20 Little Sounds from Ngineering.com for freight, cattle or more exotic noises work fine vs $400 3-car cattle car sets with TMCC or Legacy triggers.

How you plan to use the layout, your level of comfort with troubleshooting electronics and your budget all factor into your decision.  Hope that helps!

Given the fact that production of a volume of MTH product is somewhat uncertain, I'd be looking at Lionel Legacy to start.  The Legacy system runs TMCC and Legacy, so it covers a lot of ground.  Obviously, you can add DCS in the future as well.  I run both DCS and Legacy/TMCC on my layout, and I also have both the MTH and Lionel WiFi capability.

With my configuration, I have the ability to run pretty much anything, conventional, Legacy/TMCC, or DCS.  I personally use the Lionel PowerHouse 180 bricks to power my layout, the MTH TIU gives me conventional operation with it's two variable channels.

If you're going 3-rail, I personally wouldn't recommend DCC as that's incompatible with DCS or Legacy/TMCC at the same time.

Since I don't use SCARM, I can't comment on the track plan, you might consider posting a graphic of it for folks that don't have that track planning application.

track plan added, i am doing 3 rail o-gauge. What about the lionel layout control system, does that work with any of that, i like that too because of the ipad integration etc

Yes, the LCS works in conjunction with the Legacy system, I forgot to mention I also have that installed.

Well, I'm going to chime in here because eventually someone will.  There is a whole new method to power and control model trains and it's referred to as BPRC (Battery Powered Remote Control).  Unfortunately, no new equipment is currently sold using this operating method, so you would have to modify any engines you acquire.  On the plus side, you could acquire "dead" engines very cheaply, do the gutting and installing, and have a very nice engine that will not need a transformer of any kind to run.  The Remote Control part of this operation is through a smart phone or tablet.

Search the forum for BPRC and read the threads to see how it works and how its being constantly improved.

Chuck

@PRR1950

thats very interesting never even heard of that before but i will check that out, thanks!

@gunrunnerjohn

Ok thats cool LCS seems cool and i always look at the legacy stuff and because it says "legacy" i think its an older system or something not as current as LCS but that shows you how much i know. Do you know if rail sounds or things like digitrax is worth while or some type of adding sound and realism to the layout? i have been wondering if there are enhancements or things folks do to make the engines run like real locos and sound like them too along with track and animations etc

@Hannibal-St Joseph RR

Thanks for those tips i will look into those as well!

You can spend an infinite amount of time customizing and enhancing your locomotives and rolling stock.  I've done custom lighting and sounds for a variety of rolling stock and locomotives.  There are lots of folks doing stuff like that, and countless threads here detailing some of the work.  There are also tons of ways to add sound to the layout and rolling stock, even I have created a method.

MP3 Universal Sound Module

Since you're just starting, I'll second gunrunnerjohn's recommendation for Legacy; if I were just starting with command control, that's where I'd go, for one reason: designated remote control.  Once you learn where the keys are on a remote control, you will get used to the "feel" of it and can watch your trains run rather than watching your phone. Since MTH has discontinued the production of the DCS remote, you will essentially be forced to run your trains with your phone or tablet. Even if you can find a DCS remote for sale at a reasonable price, it won't be compatible with the new TIUs. Lionel is (at least for now) producing a designated remote, giving you more choices regarding the way you run your trains.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Given the fact that production of a volume of MTH product is somewhat uncertain, I'd be looking at Lionel Legacy to start.  The Legacy system runs TMCC and Legacy, so it covers a lot of ground.  Obviously, you can add DCS in the future as well.  I run both DCS and Legacy/TMCC on my layout, and I also have both the MTH and Lionel WiFi capability.

With my configuration, I have the ability to run pretty much anything, conventional, Legacy/TMCC, or DCS.  I personally use the Lionel PowerHouse 180 bricks to power my layout, the MTH TIU gives me conventional operation with it's two variable channels.

If you're going 3-rail, I personally wouldn't recommend DCC as that's incompatible with DCS or Legacy/TMCC at the same time.

Since I don't use SCARM, I can't comment on the track plan, you might consider posting a graphic of it for folks that don't have that track planning application.

I respectfully have to ask why production is uncertain? Atlas has already produced the first locomotive with PS 3.0 with the release of there new run of 44 ton switchers. Have already announced new Amtrak engines with PS 3.0 and there is still plenty of stock out there in Hobby shops. Atlas and MTH are still releasing products with DCS.

Now with that being said I agree with the other stuff John said about Legacy/TMCC lots products from Atlas, 3rd Rail and Lionel.

Do whatever floats your Boat.

I will state this if your go with DCS and you have a friend or someone you who can loan you a tmcc command base you add a cable and you can pretty much control all stuff until you go legacy for a little less money.   

@davehall83  A lot of good information has been presented so far in this topic.  You didn't specifically ask about Lion Chief, but since no one else has mentioned it so far, there are a couple of points about it that may interest you.

Using their own handheld remote (and in some cases Bluetooth control on a smart device) Lion Chief Locomotives can run concurrently with any of the typical 3-rail O gauge command control systems (TMCC, Legacy and DCS).  LC locomotives can run off the same fixed track power (14-18VAC) as other command Locomotives using the aforementioned control systems.

The original Lion Chief locomotives (now sometimes referred to as LC 1.0)  only run from their own dedicated remote or the Universal LionChief Remote.

Next came LionChief with Bluetooth which has the same capabilities as before with the addition of Bluetooth control, more sound options and the ability to be controlled from the LionChief app on a smart device.

After that came Lion Chief Plus which included the previous features and added remote controlled electro-couplers and more sounds.

Currently there's Lion Chief 2.0 that builds on previous features and adds the ability to respond to Legacy commands.

There's obviously more to the feature sets, but I think this gives a decent overview of LionChief control.  Most of the later Lion Chief locos have a good sound set: engine, chuffing, horn, bell, crew and tower communications, and a few others.  Most, if not all, of the steamers have smoke units as you'd expect.

In my opinion, the Lion chief locomotives lack some of the more elaborate detailing, features, and breadth of sounds as the Legacy Locos, but they also are significantly less expensive.  I have a mix of older conventional, Lion Chief, TMCC and Legacy on my layout and enjoy them all.

I hope this is helpful.

Firstly good luck on the new layout, as everyone says Legacy is a good start and covers a lot of ground. I certainly wouldn’t limit yourself and also look into DCS down the road. If your in 3 rail O I would just stay away from DCC. As far as sounds go we are limited to what each system has you don’t mix and match. DCS does allow you to change and upload some new and different sounds. Newer LEGACY locomotives are coming with a selection of whistles and bells. As far as sound system execution it’s hard to beat the sound and bass of a legacy locomotive.

this video is actually a year old now but here’s the start of my clubs new layout, hopefully some time soon we’ll get some more videos out. You can also look at other locomotive videos we have to hear the different sounds Lionel has to offer

It isn't an exclusive choice. One can start with either DCS or Legacy/TMCC  and add the other later if you wish, but at the moment it is difficult to get components for either system. It seems March - June may be when we start seeing units. There is time to explore.

If you think you will ever have DCS there are some wiring best practices that it would be wise to follow as you are laying track. I know you have a wiring thread going so I won't get into that here. Just giving you a heads up because it wouldn't be easy to do it after the track is down and wired. Legacy will work just fine with it.

@Shawn_Chronister posted:

I respectfully have to ask why production is uncertain? Atlas has already produced the first locomotive with PS 3.0 with the release of there new run of 44 ton switchers. Have already announced new Amtrak engines with PS 3.0 and there is still plenty of stock out there in Hobby shops. Atlas and MTH are still releasing products with DCS.

Until the "new" MTH demonstrates it has staying power in the marketplace, I remain skeptical. 

• The fact that the new MTH has absolutely no repair capability and are depending on dealers and ASC's for all the repairs is a bad sign.
• There are no new current or planned MTH ASC training classes.
• The price of electronic parts for repair skyrocketed, making any repairs more expensive.
• Right now, most electronic repair boards are unavailable.
• New releases have been relegated to a few locomotive and rolling stock types with different paint jobs.
• Atlas has never been a major player in the O-scale market, so it remains to be seen if they'll pick up the pace.

And the beat goes on...

IMO legacy is the way to go.  Connection to the layout is simple, upgrade to  command is easy.  The fact that atlas picked up the mth control system muddies the water since earlier atlas products were all tmcc.  I personally have no interest in building out control panels that look like they belong on star trek.  That isnt why im in this hobby.

"I respectfully have to ask why production is uncertain? "

We don't even know the address or email address of the proposed MTH successor company that will be producing DCS components such as the TIU/WIU.  That's reason enough for some caution over a year after the initial announcements and the multiple changes in plans that have occurred since then.  Lots of questions that haven't been answered as yet and lots of capabilities that haven't been demonstrated as yet.  Maybe everything will go fine.  Let's hope so.

On the positive side, I don't think the effort and expense would have been expended on the new MTH parts site if there was no hope of a future.

@turkey_hollow_rr posted:

On the positive side, I don't think the effort and expense would have been expended on the new MTH parts site if there was no hope of a future.

I think there's certainly "hope" for the future.  OTOH, "hope" isn't a guarantee of success.  I also "hope" for the success of MTH in the market place.  While I don't ever expect it to come back to it's former glory, I would like to see more than a dribbling of different paint jobs on a few products, IMO that's not going to support the company long term.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I think there's certainly "hope" for the future.  OTOH, "hope" isn't a guarantee of success.  I also "hope" for the success of MTH in the market place.  While I don't ever expect it to come back to it's former glory, I would like to see more than a dribbling of different paint jobs on a few products, IMO that's not going to support the company long term.

Maybe "hope" isn't the right word. There must have been some business case that made sense. I don't disagree it won't ever be like it was. If the model of licensing of DCS components doesn't keep that group in business it will certainly fall away. Atlas may never have been a major player in O but they must see some potential business there, and they can now offer models with either control system. I've never heard of a guarantee in business.

You should also know that most, if not all, of Lionel's newer command control loco's come with Voice Control and Blue Tooth availability to operate the engine via Lionel's App (a free download), so that at least partial integration with iPhones and other devices is possible, albeit not as elaborate, without having to add their LCS system.

I would recommend that you get a current Lionel catalogue and look at the Legacy features as well as the chart of features for the various LC models.   

Speaking only for myself, I intend to use both DCS and Legacy systems. I've had the new DCS WTIU in pre-order for a while now, so really I'm just waiting for that to come. There are rumors of a new Legacy system coming out, so I'm likely to get that at some point. With that being said, the LionChief app works great for my Legacy steam locomotives, but I don't have all of the features available to me there. So, really, when it comes down to it: I want the best of both worlds because I have both MTH and Lionel locomotives that I want to run, which is why I will end up having both systems.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I think there's certainly "hope" for the future.  OTOH, "hope" isn't a guarantee of success.  I also "hope" for the success of MTH in the market place.  While I don't ever expect it to come back to it's former glory, I would like to see more than a dribbling of different paint jobs on a few products, IMO that's not going to support the company long term.

Well, the "old" MTH is gone and has been replaced by three successor companies.  That in itself makes for a riskier operation by violating the old military adages of "unity of command" and "unity of effort."  Do all three successor MTH companies fall under the same ownership team?  How closely do they work together? Why was it even necessary to break up the old MTH into three companies?

I do like some of the new MTH specials runs of rolling stock from Mr. Muffins (and others) and have begun to order some. I do wish they would branch out a bit to more to eastern/ New England or Canadian road names though.  I do check their websites regularly to see what's new.  I would like also to see an easy way to make requests for specific road names and rolling stock.  I have some ideas!

Some of the uncatalogued locomotives from the "new" MTH look interesting but I'm not interested in having two major control systems on my layout.  I don't get a good vibe on how warranty issues are now being handled by the new MTH. It's low risk when talking about rolling stock but to invest $500 or more in a locomotive without a solid warranty plan I am comfortable with... no thanks.

"dribbling of different paint jobs on a few products," is an interesting choice of words. Without a major catalog its hard to say how much stuff is really being produced.  Although stuff does get announced at regular intervals in a variety of road names, it doesn't feel like the quantity of new stuff available the market is very large.  Not having a published catalog masks that.

@Up & Down the Monon posted:

Speaking only for myself, I intend to use both DCS and Legacy systems. I've had the new DCS WTIU in pre-order for a while now, so really I'm just waiting for that to come. There are rumors of a new Legacy system coming out, so I'm likely to get that at some point. With that being said, the LionChief app works great for my Legacy steam locomotives, but I don't have all of the features available to me there. So, really, when it comes down to it: I want the best of both worlds because I have both MTH and Lionel locomotives that I want to run, which is why I will end up having both systems.

I had not heard that before .... care to disclose where those rumors originated ?

"I had not heard that before .... care to disclose where those rumors originated ?"

Apparently the electronic version of the next OGR issue contained an article by Dave Olson at Lionel that was removed until the catalog appears in the next week or so.  Was discussed briefly on the forum until a request was made to remove the thread.  It's apparently not an entirely new system, but rather a device for enabling the control of LionChief, Bluetooth, TMCC and Legacy locos through a single command base.  New app, presumably as well, tentatively labelled the cab3 system.  We will find out the details shortly.  One main feature that will appeal to some is the ability to control LionChief locos via the cab2 Legacy handheld, as I read the reports on YouTube based upon those who saw the catalog page before publication.

I don't like "investment" with regards to a hobby, more like re-directing disposable income. Investments are in more serious places and allow me to have disposable income. So far I've spent $4000 building Turkey Hollow over the last year and still have a second level to go. I have around $1200 "invested" in DCS all together. There are engines that cost more than this.

davehall83

Your layout plan allows for one direction running only I think.  You may have dismissed this but if you could add two more switches to make a Wye or a reversing loop out of the large semi- loop track to the right, in the other room, you could reverse  your trains.

Charlie

Maybe because I am something of a newbie, I can try and break it down and get rid of some of the confusion. Right now you have more than a few choices:

1)Conventional. With conventional, you use a transformer to vary voltage to the track via a handle or some such, has a button to allow reversing the train, and another usually spring loaded switch or button for the whistle. Every type of engine, outside the original lionchief (and it looks like Menards) support conventional operation. From a cost standpoint, prob the cheapest, just requires a transformer with the right power. If you want to run multiple engines, requires block wiring (isolating sections of track, and a selector switch between like A and B output on a transformer). You select in each block which transformer arm controls what.

2)Lionchief - uses constant voltage to the track, like any command control. Has its own remote that comes with the engine, has a remote that allows controlling up to (I think) 3 engines. Lionchief + allows operating via bluetooth from an app on a pad or phone. Lionchief 2.0 adds the ability to be controlled from legacy.

3)Legacy/TMCC TMCC was the original version of Lionels control system and is what is in the ERR upgrade package you can use to convert engines to command control,Atlas and Third rail offered it as well. Legacy is the next generation of this, has more features. A legacy command base can control any tmcc or legacy engine.  The system itself broadcasts its signal through the house ground wiring, the only connection is to the ground for the layout.

There is also something called a power master that can vary voltage to the track, the way a transformer handle does. It is fed constant voltage, can be addressed via the legacy remote and it varies the output to the track, allowing speed control, reverse and whistle for a conventional engine. It has the same limitations as conventional, you would need block wiring for multiple engines, each transformer output would have its own powermaster attached.

It cannot control DCS equipped engines or Lionchief or lionchief +

4)DCS DCS is MTH command control system, their engines (PS 2.0/3.0, roughly analagous to TMCC/Legacy) are equipped to get the signal. With DCS, the command signal is sent through the middle rail.On a larger layout requires multiple power districts, each with only 1 dcs connection to it

DCS also can control a TMCC command base (I assume a legacy base as well), so it can control engines with tmcc or legacy installed. However, I don't believe it can operate all the functions, it is limited (someone else can fill in the details). So in theory you could install DCS, buy a legacy command base and hook it up to the DCS TIU (Track interface unit, thing that gets wired to the rails), and do it with one, some people do that. Atlas has started offering DCS equipped engines as well.

You can have dcs and legacy running together, they don't interfere with each other.

A lot of the answer is what engines you plan on buying, if you think you will buy lionel and MTH engines or Atlas or Third Rail products, you my want to run both. If you plan or have a lot of MTH engines and a few legacy or tmcc, then maybe go with the DCS running TMCC.

5)DCC is a standard command control that came out of the NMRA around the time TMCC came out or thereabouts. It is used in the 2 rail scale world in N, HO and O, and is an industry standard.Not an expert, but it means that you can buy a dcc control system from Digitrax and it will control any dcc equipped engine. I believe there are extensions that some companies build into their decoders and command systems that other decoders or command systems won't support, but there is a hard core standard they have to support to be compliant. (for example, if some company comes up with a decoder that supports the engineer making a rude gesture, might only work with their command control system) .

MTH in their later engines had DCC support (prob for those buying for the 2 rail market). However, DCC and DCS and Legacy are three totally different systems, so makes no sense to go DCC unless you plan on doing what some have, convert their engines over to DCC.

Hopefully this helps a bit. Me, I  haven't quite gotten to this point, plus I only have one command control engine at the moment, but I plan on eventually running DCS and Legacy. When I wire I'll wire the layout as if I have DCS and Legacy, then hookup should be easy later on (yeah, I hear you GRJ, snickering with the others over there

I'm right there standing next to you, bigkid. Let'em snicker. 

DCC:

I see people  in previous replies -- advising against DCC.

However, if you're starting with a "clean slate", I would ask to you at least give DCC a fair evaluation -- before you "follow the herd" down the "proprietary path".

DCC is the "open-source" system used by just about every digital loco manufacturer in the world, from N to G, and including 2-rail O gauge -- so why would it not work equally well on 3-rail O-gauge??

• This includes MTH locos since 2011 when they released Proto 3.
• All Proto 3 locos can operate on DCC.
• Many of Lionel's new S gauge locos can operate on DCC.

The major computer-control systems that are used world-wide (TrainController, iTrain, JMRI, etc) are written for DCC -- not for somebody's proprietary system.

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If you're interested in automatic control, you can do interesting automatic control programming by using the NCE Corporation's simple DCC 'programmable model train controller'-- see below image.

My amateur TrainProgramming.com video https://vimeo.com/654736533  tries to demonstrate some of the O-gauge programming experiments you can do -- to hopefully interest your grandkids in programming.

Wow, I know there’s many good choices in command Control systems for three rail model railroaders. Long story short, I grew up with Lionel and American Flyer trains, (1950’s forward) conventional control with a modest control panel with a ZW Lionel transformer in a fixed position to operate the layout. That’s history, we live in the best of times, train control is so much more precise, the Lionel rail sounds so realistic and the dialogs, the feature rich diesels and steamers, all the neat ways to simply share the hobby with family and friends. I got out of the hobby in 1989 (sold all of my post war collection do to losing my job and had to do a lot of re-grouping and thinking my days of having another layout wasn’t in my future. After many years, around 1996, a good friend told me about Lionel introducing TMCC, Command Control, and that we could run our trains with wireless walk around control, I looked into this new system and found it simply Amazing. I began buying the new TMCC Cab 1 System, and my wife bought me the Century Club Engines and built us a home with a nice basement for a new beginning in toy trains. At the time, Atlas O began making their new track, ta da, I was back into realistic three rail model railroading. I’m happy to say, I love the Lionel Legacy System, my layout is totally operated by the Cab 2 and the Cab 1L, everything, track power, switches, trains, all locomotives, blocks of track, and many of the newer engines have Blue Tooth, and now voice control, it’s a Wow. I stay with one system, Lionel, I trust that they will be in business for many more years. Belonging to the LCCA, TCA, and a member of the OGR Forum, and being very involved with many friends all over the country with our model trains is so rewarding. The rumor of the Lionel Cab 3 App is exciting as everything is backwards compatible, that’s so cool. Another really fun part of the Lionel System is, I can take my Cab 2/Cab 1L remote to my friends home and We can run trains together. We can take our trains to their homes, or they can bring trains to my home and have a really great time running our trains. I’m fortunate that I can run trains on Dr. Jack Fishers layout, and Farmerjohns layout, and everything runs fine. It’s a hobby of men and women having fun with childhood dreams with this amazing modern technology making running our toy trains in a realistic way so much more exciting.  So, I highly recommend the Lionel System as once you learn how to work the remotes, the accessories like the ASC’s, BPC’s, PowerMasters, and the Blue Tooth capabilities, IPad control, it’s so neat. Yes, it’s a hard decision, but you can find answers here on this great forum. Happy Railroading Everyone.

I like what you've done with DCC.  But realistically, the only ready to run locos with DCC in three rail were by MTH and their production of locomotives has dwindled dramatically over the last year plus with the downsizing.  Lionel, now by far the largest producer of three rail O gauge locos, does not have DCC built into any of their O gauge locos, to my knowledge.  Just a caveat.  American Flyer S gauge, as you point out, is another possibility if DCC is your preference.

@James Ingram posted:

DCC:

I see people  in previous replies -- advising against DCC.

However, if you're starting with a "clean slate", I would ask to you at least give DCC a fair evaluation -- before you "follow the herd" down the "proprietary path".

DCC is the "open-source" system used by just about every digital loco manufacturer in the world, from N to G, and including 2-rail O gauge -- so why would it not work equally well on 3-rail O-gauge??

• This includes MTH locos since 2011 when they released Proto 3.
• All Proto 3 locos can operate on DCC.
• Many of Lionel's new S gauge locos can operate on DCC.

The major computer-control systems that are used world-wide (TrainController, iTrain, JMRI, etc) are written for DCC -- not for somebody's proprietary system.

|-------+---------+

If you're interested in automatic control, you can do interesting automatic control programming by using the NCE Corporation's simple DCC 'programmable model train controller'-- see below image.

My amateur TrainProgramming.com video https://vimeo.com/654736533  tries to demonstrate some of the O-gauge programming experiments you can do -- to hopefully interest your grandkids in programming.

Not knocking DCC at all, it is a powerful system and you can do a lot with it you can't with DCS and Legacy. There are significant downsides:

1)In three rail the only standard support was MTH in PS 3.0, so if you want to do it 'off the shelf'  there won't be as much available.

2)Modifying an engine to work with DCC sounds easy enough if it has a DC can motor. In O at least space isn't an issue, in smaller scales that can be fun (from my reading of Model Railroader when they do projects to add a DCC controller to an engine originally DC only). You could run the layout on DC, or have a rectifier in the engine if still running AC (why you would IDK, though).  It also isn't necessarily that easy to wire from watching what happens when they try to upgrade an older DC HO model to DCC. Not that many people would want to, but older pullmor equipped engines would likely be impossible to convert , if for the current draw and their operating characteristics.

There are also features in DCS or Legacy that you would likely need to give up or do some severe mods to achieve (yeah, if speed control is the primary aspect of what you care about, likely won't matter). On the other hand DCC probably with the sound decoders probably has a much larger base of sound clips you can use (and I am not an expert in this area, just what I have read in the scale world in MR and other places).  And yes, DCC being open source means you if you want to do the work, can interface all kinds of things like arduino based controllers to it and the like.

The advantage is obvious, having a system that is open source and also is supported by a ton of companies and isn't likely to go anywhere given the size of their market.

@Landsteiner posted:

I like what you've done with DCC.  But realistically, the only ready to run locos with DCC in three rail were by MTH and their production of locomotives has dwindled dramatically over the last year plus with the downsizing.  Lionel, now by far the largest producer of three rail O gauge locos, does not have DCC built into any of their O gauge locos, to my knowledge.  Just a caveat.  American Flyer S gauge, as you point out, is another possibility if DCC is your preference.

Here's just my humble  *OPINION*  about how Lionel approaches DCC:

All DCC systems will operate with any manufacturers DCC decoders-- from tiny Marklin Z scale --up to the massive LGB Largescale locos.

Lionel is forced to include DCC capability with many of their S-gauge and HO-gauge locos -- because a lot of S & HO-gauge users are familiar with DCC -- and they would refuse to be  *TRAPPED* into using an expensive proprietary system.

BTW, I've been told the Lionel DCC is "seamless"; the loco "recognizes" it's a DCC signal, and not a Legacy signal, and it just runs as usual.

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However, my opinion is that Lionel does NOT include DCC capability with their O-gauge locos -- because they can "get away with it".

If a significant percentage of Lionel O-gauge buyers were to INSIST on DCC capability before they bought an O gauge loco (I know, I'm "pipe dreaming") -- then you probably would soon see Lionel O-gauge locos with DCC capability.

If Legacy is so great, then Lionel should not be afraid to compete "head-to-head" with the DCC manufacturers. (Such as MTH does.)

"However, my opinion is that Lionel does NOT include DCC capability with their O-gauge locos -- because they can "get away with it".

When Neil Young and Dick Kughn started development of command control for three rail O gauge almost 30 years ago, DCC was not a practical consideration as there were no devices that could handle the 5-10 amp draw of these AC open frame motor locos.  There was no sound (very important to Neil Young).  So they developed TMCC and Railsounds. There are 25+ years of sunk costs that hobbyists have in three rail TMCC/Legacy that are simply not going to be ignored to use DCC, which might now be practical.  The people who have three rail O gauge trains simply have no practical reason for using DCC in my opinion.  No one is getting away with anything. Just history and economics.  Not to mention that no DCC manufacturer (e.g., NCE, Digitrax) has put together a comprehensive line of decoders, boosters, sound boards, etc. that are specifically designed for three rail trains.  And the reason for that is the sheer impracticality of DCC in the marketplace,  given history and economics in the O gauge three rail world.

"If Legacy is so great, then Lionel should not be afraid to compete "head-to-head" with the DCC manufacturers. (Such as MTH does.)"

Not about greatness or fear in my opinion; see above. MTH introduced DCC into its locos because they wanted to appeal to the 2 rail O gauge hobbyist and the HO hobbyist, nothing more, nothing less. DCC in three rail O gauge cannot be operated simultaneously with PS2 or PS3 locos in command mode and PS2 and PS3 were MTH's focus in O gauge, when they were a full line company.  In any case, MTH wasn't competing with DCC, except in HO.  DCS was pretty much a complete failure at displacing DCC in HO locos, so DCC was absolutely essential to MTH's HO products one guesses.  Furthermore, MTH isn't competing with anyone these days, DCC or otherwise. They have apparently become a boutique manufacturer focusing on their O gauge three rail DCS locos.  DCC is present for the two rail O gaugers, but is not designed to capture any part of the O gauge three rail market.  No argument that in two rail O gauge, DCC makes sense.  But it's my opinion it makes no sense to most three rail O gauge hobbyists due to costs and effort involved in conversion of the huge supply of existing TMCC/Legacy locos.

I think the vast majority of O gauge 3 rail hobbyists are happy using either Legacy and/or MTH's DCS.

@James Ingram posted:

If Legacy is so great, then Lionel should not be afraid to compete "head-to-head" with the DCC manufacturers. (Such as MTH does.)

James,

Thanks for your incite.  I agree with all of it, almost.

I don't understand your comment above though.  Lionel is already competing with DCC, and winning, in the Traditional O Gauge market, and much of O Scale (essentially all of 3-Rail).

Why would they need, or want, to compete in DCC?  Perhaps to show off their engineering prowess to a market they do not compete in, and have no interest competing in?  Why waste the time and money?

What are they "afraid" of?  Losing their main market of 122 years (or about 30 years for the control system)?  Not gonna happen.  DCC would have to blow TMCC and Legacy out of the water, and while it's very efficient, quite good, and perhaps technically superior, it doesn't rise to that level.

Why?  Because this isn't about engineering prowess.

People like TMCC and Legacy for emotional reasons, not technical ones.  Because of this they won't switch from TMCC and Legacy unless and until someone pries them "out of their cold, dead hands".

BTW -- You're welcome to continue to try to convince the rest of us that Lionel needs to abandon TMCC and Legacy and switch to DCC, but it will not happen anytime soon, unless perhaps because the electronic components for it are no longer made.

Mike

@James Ingram posted:

If Legacy is so great, then Lionel should not be afraid to compete "head-to-head" with the DCC manufacturers. (Such as MTH does.)

If DCC is so great, why hasn't it made a dent in the 3-Rail market?  We can come at this issue from both ends.

Let's face it, Legacy, DCS, and DCC all perform the basic requirements of control and sound for model trains.  If there were a burning market for DCC in 3-Rail trains, then the DCC manufacturers would have products targeting the market.

FWIW, Lionel does compete with DCC manufacturers in S-scale, yet Legacy operation is far more popular than DCC for the Lionel products that will run both.

Looks at it from a different viewpoint.  Why doesn't Caterpillar compete with Tesla?  Simple, they're in different product arenas, and they're perfectly happy doing what they do best.  Would you buy a Caterpillar electric sedan?  How about a Tesla bulldozer?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

If DCC is so great, why hasn't it made a dent in the 3-Rail market?  We can come at this issue from both ends.

Let's face it, Legacy, DCS, and DCC all perform the basic requirements of control and sound for model trains.  If there were a burning market for DCC in 3-Rail trains, then the DCC manufacturers would have products targeting the market.

FWIW, Lionel does compete with DCC manufacturers in S-scale, yet Legacy operation is far more popular than DCC for the Lionel products that will run both.

Looks at it from a different viewpoint.  Why doesn't Caterpillar compete with Tesla?  Simple, they're in different product arenas, and they're perfectly happy doing what they do best.  Would you buy a Caterpillar electric sedan?  How about a Tesla bulldozer?

I don't know, last I heard they are building an E-Hummer *lol*....

The answer with Legacy is Lionel created it like 30 years ago ( w TMCC), they made a lot of engines with it and basically you had no choice if you wanted command control. Plus it was quite good and it went well beyond speed control and sound. 

The downside? If boards go on older engines can be difficult to repair them, get parts, and the universal replacement ( ERR boards) are only TMCC level. With DCC the control module goes you have options that are plug and play.

In S DCC was long established there so it would be cutting their nose off to spite their face not to offer it ( and if theyever offered HO, same thing).

MTH offered DCC w ps 3.0 if I recall correctly when they got into the HO market ( also allowed those who bought the 3 to 2 rail convertible models to use DCC on 2 rail).

DCC does offer things as an open source system legacy does not, you can upgrade controllers to use newer features, you can customize DCC settings a lot more than Legacy from what I can tell, you can interface computerized control through it via various interfaces and you can fix DCC engines a lot easier bc of the nature of DCC.

Again in 3 rail DCC doesn't grab on bc Legacy and DCS are what people know, does what they want and is built in,and has been around a long time so faced w having to convert engines over and learn a new system, they stay where they are.

In the scale world Lionel and MTH wouldn't get away w proprietary systems, they were too big a market for one proprietary system to become dominant ( or two as in 3 rail). DCC became the province of the NMRA and rest is history.

If 3 rail had been a huge market, rather than a niche dominated really by one manufacturer, with a lot of players, something like DCC would have happened, an open source system, but it wasn't.

I adapt to the realities of today.  The reality of today is DCC is at best a bit player in the 3-Rail O-gauge market, and I doubt that's going to change anytime soon.  Given that reality, I work with Legacy, TMCC, and DCS, they're the 800 pound gorillas of the 3-rail command control world.

If DCC were capable of operating with Legacy/TMCC at the same time like DCS, I suspect it could make inroads.  However, that ship has sailed, and I don't see any way that's going to change given the nature of the two incompatible control systems.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Why doesn't Caterpillar compete with Tesla?  Simple, they're in different product arenas, and they're perfectly happy doing what they do best.  Would you buy a Caterpillar electric sedan?  How about a Tesla bulldozer?

That may happen sooner than you think