Help picking a control system

Hi Dave!

I am planning for up to 4 simultaneous operators running single small engines on 34” diameter minimum curves.  No need for me to synchronize two engine speeds.  I won’t have ‘cruise control’ so will have to be involved with engines changing grades.  I want to maintain the ability to run one old loco at a time periodically using conventional control.  I also don’t want to break the bank, and want to keep wiring simple.  So I am running the layout using multiple variable voltage (traditional) transformers - all synched and at the same voltage.  Normal operation is set at 14VAC track power, using Lion Chief remote controllers for each engine.    Each of the 4 transformers powers a section of the single-track mainline layout.  Within each section there are switches etc, but the point is my layout is essentially a loop-to-loop - so dividing it into 4 sections is pretty straightforward.

When I want to run a conventional train, I have isolated the layout into 4 big sections, along with sidings that can be powered down/turned off.  So I run the old train using one of the conventional transformers in one of the sections.  When I’m done, I park the old loco back on its isolated track and power that siding down, return all 4 of the transformers to 14VAC, and turn on the sidings for the Lion Chief engines.

So I have local control panels with switching and rely on local uncoupling tracks or fingers.  Z-Stuff block signals work fine if your operators look at the light before barreling ahead!    Railsounds and Lion Chief sounds are good enough for me.  Also $20 Little Sounds from Ngineering.com for freight, cattle or more exotic noises work fine vs $400 3-car cattle car sets with TMCC or Legacy triggers.

How you plan to use the layout, your level of comfort with troubleshooting electronics and your budget all factor into your decision.  Hope that helps!

Given the fact that production of a volume of MTH product is somewhat uncertain, I'd be looking at Lionel Legacy to start.  The Legacy system runs TMCC and Legacy, so it covers a lot of ground.  Obviously, you can add DCS in the future as well.  I run both DCS and Legacy/TMCC on my layout, and I also have both the MTH and Lionel WiFi capability.

With my configuration, I have the ability to run pretty much anything, conventional, Legacy/TMCC, or DCS.  I personally use the Lionel PowerHouse 180 bricks to power my layout, the MTH TIU gives me conventional operation with it's two variable channels.

If you're going 3-rail, I personally wouldn't recommend DCC as that's incompatible with DCS or Legacy/TMCC at the same time.

Since I don't use SCARM, I can't comment on the track plan, you might consider posting a graphic of it for folks that don't have that track planning application.

track plan added, i am doing 3 rail o-gauge. What about the lionel layout control system, does that work with any of that, i like that too because of the ipad integration etc

Yes, the LCS works in conjunction with the Legacy system, I forgot to mention I also have that installed.

Well, I'm going to chime in here because eventually someone will.  There is a whole new method to power and control model trains and it's referred to as BPRC (Battery Powered Remote Control).  Unfortunately, no new equipment is currently sold using this operating method, so you would have to modify any engines you acquire.  On the plus side, you could acquire "dead" engines very cheaply, do the gutting and installing, and have a very nice engine that will not need a transformer of any kind to run.  The Remote Control part of this operation is through a smart phone or tablet.

Search the forum for BPRC and read the threads to see how it works and how its being constantly improved.

Chuck

@PRR1950

thats very interesting never even heard of that before but i will check that out, thanks!

@gunrunnerjohn

Ok thats cool LCS seems cool and i always look at the legacy stuff and because it says "legacy" i think its an older system or something not as current as LCS but that shows you how much i know. Do you know if rail sounds or things like digitrax is worth while or some type of adding sound and realism to the layout? i have been wondering if there are enhancements or things folks do to make the engines run like real locos and sound like them too along with track and animations etc

@Hannibal-St Joseph RR

Thanks for those tips i will look into those as well!

You can spend an infinite amount of time customizing and enhancing your locomotives and rolling stock.  I've done custom lighting and sounds for a variety of rolling stock and locomotives.  There are lots of folks doing stuff like that, and countless threads here detailing some of the work.  There are also tons of ways to add sound to the layout and rolling stock, even I have created a method.

MP3 Universal Sound Module

Since you're just starting, I'll second gunrunnerjohn's recommendation for Legacy; if I were just starting with command control, that's where I'd go, for one reason: designated remote control.  Once you learn where the keys are on a remote control, you will get used to the "feel" of it and can watch your trains run rather than watching your phone. Since MTH has discontinued the production of the DCS remote, you will essentially be forced to run your trains with your phone or tablet. Even if you can find a DCS remote for sale at a reasonable price, it won't be compatible with the new TIUs. Lionel is (at least for now) producing a designated remote, giving you more choices regarding the way you run your trains.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Given the fact that production of a volume of MTH product is somewhat uncertain, I'd be looking at Lionel Legacy to start.  The Legacy system runs TMCC and Legacy, so it covers a lot of ground.  Obviously, you can add DCS in the future as well.  I run both DCS and Legacy/TMCC on my layout, and I also have both the MTH and Lionel WiFi capability.

With my configuration, I have the ability to run pretty much anything, conventional, Legacy/TMCC, or DCS.  I personally use the Lionel PowerHouse 180 bricks to power my layout, the MTH TIU gives me conventional operation with it's two variable channels.

If you're going 3-rail, I personally wouldn't recommend DCC as that's incompatible with DCS or Legacy/TMCC at the same time.

Since I don't use SCARM, I can't comment on the track plan, you might consider posting a graphic of it for folks that don't have that track planning application.

I respectfully have to ask why production is uncertain? Atlas has already produced the first locomotive with PS 3.0 with the release of there new run of 44 ton switchers. Have already announced new Amtrak engines with PS 3.0 and there is still plenty of stock out there in Hobby shops. Atlas and MTH are still releasing products with DCS.

Now with that being said I agree with the other stuff John said about Legacy/TMCC lots products from Atlas, 3rd Rail and Lionel.

Do whatever floats your Boat.

I will state this if your go with DCS and you have a friend or someone you who can loan you a tmcc command base you add a cable and you can pretty much control all stuff until you go legacy for a little less money.   

@davehall83  A lot of good information has been presented so far in this topic.  You didn't specifically ask about Lion Chief, but since no one else has mentioned it so far, there are a couple of points about it that may interest you.

Using their own handheld remote (and in some cases Bluetooth control on a smart device) Lion Chief Locomotives can run concurrently with any of the typical 3-rail O gauge command control systems (TMCC, Legacy and DCS).  LC locomotives can run off the same fixed track power (14-18VAC) as other command Locomotives using the aforementioned control systems.

The original Lion Chief locomotives (now sometimes referred to as LC 1.0)  only run from their own dedicated remote or the Universal LionChief Remote.

Next came LionChief with Bluetooth which has the same capabilities as before with the addition of Bluetooth control, more sound options and the ability to be controlled from the LionChief app on a smart device.

After that came Lion Chief Plus which included the previous features and added remote controlled electro-couplers and more sounds.

Currently there's Lion Chief 2.0 that builds on previous features and adds the ability to respond to Legacy commands.

There's obviously more to the feature sets, but I think this gives a decent overview of LionChief control.  Most of the later Lion Chief locos have a good sound set: engine, chuffing, horn, bell, crew and tower communications, and a few others.  Most, if not all, of the steamers have smoke units as you'd expect.

In my opinion, the Lion chief locomotives lack some of the more elaborate detailing, features, and breadth of sounds as the Legacy Locos, but they also are significantly less expensive.  I have a mix of older conventional, Lion Chief, TMCC and Legacy on my layout and enjoy them all.

I hope this is helpful.

Firstly good luck on the new layout, as everyone says Legacy is a good start and covers a lot of ground. I certainly wouldn’t limit yourself and also look into DCS down the road. If your in 3 rail O I would just stay away from DCC. As far as sounds go we are limited to what each system has you don’t mix and match. DCS does allow you to change and upload some new and different sounds. Newer LEGACY locomotives are coming with a selection of whistles and bells. As far as sound system execution it’s hard to beat the sound and bass of a legacy locomotive.

this video is actually a year old now but here’s the start of my clubs new layout, hopefully some time soon we’ll get some more videos out. You can also look at other locomotive videos we have to hear the different sounds Lionel has to offer

It isn't an exclusive choice. One can start with either DCS or Legacy/TMCC  and add the other later if you wish, but at the moment it is difficult to get components for either system. It seems March - June may be when we start seeing units. There is time to explore.

If you think you will ever have DCS there are some wiring best practices that it would be wise to follow as you are laying track. I know you have a wiring thread going so I won't get into that here. Just giving you a heads up because it wouldn't be easy to do it after the track is down and wired. Legacy will work just fine with it.

@Shawn_Chronister posted:

I respectfully have to ask why production is uncertain? Atlas has already produced the first locomotive with PS 3.0 with the release of there new run of 44 ton switchers. Have already announced new Amtrak engines with PS 3.0 and there is still plenty of stock out there in Hobby shops. Atlas and MTH are still releasing products with DCS.

Until the "new" MTH demonstrates it has staying power in the marketplace, I remain skeptical. 

• The fact that the new MTH has absolutely no repair capability and are depending on dealers and ASC's for all the repairs is a bad sign.
• There are no new current or planned MTH ASC training classes.
• The price of electronic parts for repair skyrocketed, making any repairs more expensive.
• Right now, most electronic repair boards are unavailable.
• New releases have been relegated to a few locomotive and rolling stock types with different paint jobs.
• Atlas has never been a major player in the O-scale market, so it remains to be seen if they'll pick up the pace.

And the beat goes on...

IMO legacy is the way to go.  Connection to the layout is simple, upgrade to  command is easy.  The fact that atlas picked up the mth control system muddies the water since earlier atlas products were all tmcc.  I personally have no interest in building out control panels that look like they belong on star trek.  That isnt why im in this hobby.

"I respectfully have to ask why production is uncertain? "

We don't even know the address or email address of the proposed MTH successor company that will be producing DCS components such as the TIU/WIU.  That's reason enough for some caution over a year after the initial announcements and the multiple changes in plans that have occurred since then.  Lots of questions that haven't been answered as yet and lots of capabilities that haven't been demonstrated as yet.  Maybe everything will go fine.  Let's hope so.

On the positive side, I don't think the effort and expense would have been expended on the new MTH parts site if there was no hope of a future.

@turkey_hollow_rr posted:

On the positive side, I don't think the effort and expense would have been expended on the new MTH parts site if there was no hope of a future.

I think there's certainly "hope" for the future.  OTOH, "hope" isn't a guarantee of success.  I also "hope" for the success of MTH in the market place.  While I don't ever expect it to come back to it's former glory, I would like to see more than a dribbling of different paint jobs on a few products, IMO that's not going to support the company long term.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I think there's certainly "hope" for the future.  OTOH, "hope" isn't a guarantee of success.  I also "hope" for the success of MTH in the market place.  While I don't ever expect it to come back to it's former glory, I would like to see more than a dribbling of different paint jobs on a few products, IMO that's not going to support the company long term.

Maybe "hope" isn't the right word. There must have been some business case that made sense. I don't disagree it won't ever be like it was. If the model of licensing of DCS components doesn't keep that group in business it will certainly fall away. Atlas may never have been a major player in O but they must see some potential business there, and they can now offer models with either control system. I've never heard of a guarantee in business.

You should also know that most, if not all, of Lionel's newer command control loco's come with Voice Control and Blue Tooth availability to operate the engine via Lionel's App (a free download), so that at least partial integration with iPhones and other devices is possible, albeit not as elaborate, without having to add their LCS system.

I would recommend that you get a current Lionel catalogue and look at the Legacy features as well as the chart of features for the various LC models.   

Speaking only for myself, I intend to use both DCS and Legacy systems. I've had the new DCS WTIU in pre-order for a while now, so really I'm just waiting for that to come. There are rumors of a new Legacy system coming out, so I'm likely to get that at some point. With that being said, the LionChief app works great for my Legacy steam locomotives, but I don't have all of the features available to me there. So, really, when it comes down to it: I want the best of both worlds because I have both MTH and Lionel locomotives that I want to run, which is why I will end up having both systems.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I think there's certainly "hope" for the future.  OTOH, "hope" isn't a guarantee of success.  I also "hope" for the success of MTH in the market place.  While I don't ever expect it to come back to it's former glory, I would like to see more than a dribbling of different paint jobs on a few products, IMO that's not going to support the company long term.

Well, the "old" MTH is gone and has been replaced by three successor companies.  That in itself makes for a riskier operation by violating the old military adages of "unity of command" and "unity of effort."  Do all three successor MTH companies fall under the same ownership team?  How closely do they work together? Why was it even necessary to break up the old MTH into three companies?

I do like some of the new MTH specials runs of rolling stock from Mr. Muffins (and others) and have begun to order some. I do wish they would branch out a bit to more to eastern/ New England or Canadian road names though.  I do check their websites regularly to see what's new.  I would like also to see an easy way to make requests for specific road names and rolling stock.  I have some ideas!

Some of the uncatalogued locomotives from the "new" MTH look interesting but I'm not interested in having two major control systems on my layout.  I don't get a good vibe on how warranty issues are now being handled by the new MTH. It's low risk when talking about rolling stock but to invest $500 or more in a locomotive without a solid warranty plan I am comfortable with... no thanks.

"dribbling of different paint jobs on a few products," is an interesting choice of words. Without a major catalog its hard to say how much stuff is really being produced.  Although stuff does get announced at regular intervals in a variety of road names, it doesn't feel like the quantity of new stuff available the market is very large.  Not having a published catalog masks that.

@Up & Down the Monon posted:

Speaking only for myself, I intend to use both DCS and Legacy systems. I've had the new DCS WTIU in pre-order for a while now, so really I'm just waiting for that to come. There are rumors of a new Legacy system coming out, so I'm likely to get that at some point. With that being said, the LionChief app works great for my Legacy steam locomotives, but I don't have all of the features available to me there. So, really, when it comes down to it: I want the best of both worlds because I have both MTH and Lionel locomotives that I want to run, which is why I will end up having both systems.

I had not heard that before .... care to disclose where those rumors originated ?

"I had not heard that before .... care to disclose where those rumors originated ?"

Apparently the electronic version of the next OGR issue contained an article by Dave Olson at Lionel that was removed until the catalog appears in the next week or so.  Was discussed briefly on the forum until a request was made to remove the thread.  It's apparently not an entirely new system, but rather a device for enabling the control of LionChief, Bluetooth, TMCC and Legacy locos through a single command base.  New app, presumably as well, tentatively labelled the cab3 system.  We will find out the details shortly.  One main feature that will appeal to some is the ability to control LionChief locos via the cab2 Legacy handheld, as I read the reports on YouTube based upon those who saw the catalog page before publication.

I don't like "investment" with regards to a hobby, more like re-directing disposable income. Investments are in more serious places and allow me to have disposable income. So far I've spent $4000 building Turkey Hollow over the last year and still have a second level to go. I have around $1200 "invested" in DCS all together. There are engines that cost more than this.

davehall83

Your layout plan allows for one direction running only I think.  You may have dismissed this but if you could add two more switches to make a Wye or a reversing loop out of the large semi- loop track to the right, in the other room, you could reverse  your trains.

Charlie

Maybe because I am something of a newbie, I can try and break it down and get rid of some of the confusion. Right now you have more than a few choices:

1)Conventional. With conventional, you use a transformer to vary voltage to the track via a handle or some such, has a button to allow reversing the train, and another usually spring loaded switch or button for the whistle. Every type of engine, outside the original lionchief (and it looks like Menards) support conventional operation. From a cost standpoint, prob the cheapest, just requires a transformer with the right power. If you want to run multiple engines, requires block wiring (isolating sections of track, and a selector switch between like A and B output on a transformer). You select in each block which transformer arm controls what.

2)Lionchief - uses constant voltage to the track, like any command control. Has its own remote that comes with the engine, has a remote that allows controlling up to (I think) 3 engines. Lionchief + allows operating via bluetooth from an app on a pad or phone. Lionchief 2.0 adds the ability to be controlled from legacy.

3)Legacy/TMCC TMCC was the original version of Lionels control system and is what is in the ERR upgrade package you can use to convert engines to command control,Atlas and Third rail offered it as well. Legacy is the next generation of this, has more features. A legacy command base can control any tmcc or legacy engine.  The system itself broadcasts its signal through the house ground wiring, the only connection is to the ground for the layout.

There is also something called a power master that can vary voltage to the track, the way a transformer handle does. It is fed constant voltage, can be addressed via the legacy remote and it varies the output to the track, allowing speed control, reverse and whistle for a conventional engine. It has the same limitations as conventional, you would need block wiring for multiple engines, each transformer output would have its own powermaster attached.

It cannot control DCS equipped engines or Lionchief or lionchief +

4)DCS DCS is MTH command control system, their engines (PS 2.0/3.0, roughly analagous to TMCC/Legacy) are equipped to get the signal. With DCS, the command signal is sent through the middle rail.On a larger layout requires multiple power districts, each with only 1 dcs connection to it

DCS also can control a TMCC command base (I assume a legacy base as well), so it can control engines with tmcc or legacy installed. However, I don't believe it can operate all the functions, it is limited (someone else can fill in the details). So in theory you could install DCS, buy a legacy command base and hook it up to the DCS TIU (Track interface unit, thing that gets wired to the rails), and do it with one, some people do that. Atlas has started offering DCS equipped engines as well.

You can have dcs and legacy running together, they don't interfere with each other.

A lot of the answer is what engines you plan on buying, if you think you will buy lionel and MTH engines or Atlas or Third Rail products, you my want to run both. If you plan or have a lot of MTH engines and a few legacy or tmcc, then maybe go with the DCS running TMCC.

5)DCC is a standard command control that came out of the NMRA around the time TMCC came out or thereabouts. It is used in the 2 rail scale world in N, HO and O, and is an industry standard.Not an expert, but it means that you can buy a dcc control system from Digitrax and it will control any dcc equipped engine. I believe there are extensions that some companies build into their decoders and command systems that other decoders or command systems won't support, but there is a hard core standard they have to support to be compliant. (for example, if some company comes up with a decoder that supports the engineer making a rude gesture, might only work with their command control system) .

MTH in their later engines had DCC support (prob for those buying for the 2 rail market). However, DCC and DCS and Legacy are three totally different systems, so makes no sense to go DCC unless you plan on doing what some have, convert their engines over to DCC.

Hopefully this helps a bit. Me, I  haven't quite gotten to this point, plus I only have one command control engine at the moment, but I plan on eventually running DCS and Legacy. When I wire I'll wire the layout as if I have DCS and Legacy, then hookup should be easy later on (yeah, I hear you GRJ, snickering with the others over there

I'm right there standing next to you, bigkid. Let'em snicker. 

DCC:

I see people  in previous replies -- advising against DCC.

However, if you're starting with a "clean slate", I would ask to you at least give DCC a fair evaluation -- before you "follow the herd" down the "proprietary path".

DCC is the "open-source" system used by just about every digital loco manufacturer in the world, from N to G, and including 2-rail O gauge -- so why would it not work equally well on 3-rail O-gauge??

• This includes MTH locos since 2011 when they released Proto 3.
• All Proto 3 locos can operate on DCC.
• Many of Lionel's new S gauge locos can operate on DCC.

The major computer-control systems that are used world-wide (TrainController, iTrain, JMRI, etc) are written for DCC -- not for somebody's proprietary system.

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If you're interested in automatic control, you can do interesting automatic control programming by using the NCE Corporation's simple DCC 'programmable model train controller'-- see below image.

My amateur TrainProgramming.com video https://vimeo.com/654736533  tries to demonstrate some of the O-gauge programming experiments you can do -- to hopefully interest your grandkids in programming.

Wow, I know there’s many good choices in command Control systems for three rail model railroaders. Long story short, I grew up with Lionel and American Flyer trains, (1950’s forward) conventional control with a modest control panel with a ZW Lionel transformer in a fixed position to operate the layout. That’s history, we live in the best of times, train control is so much more precise, the Lionel rail sounds so realistic and the dialogs, the feature rich diesels and steamers, all the neat ways to simply share the hobby with family and friends. I got out of the hobby in 1989 (sold all of my post war collection do to losing my job and had to do a lot of re-grouping and thinking my days of having another layout wasn’t in my future. After many years, around 1996, a good friend told me about Lionel introducing TMCC, Command Control, and that we could run our trains with wireless walk around control, I looked into this new system and found it simply Amazing. I began buying the new TMCC Cab 1 System, and my wife bought me the Century Club Engines and built us a home with a nice basement for a new beginning in toy trains. At the time, Atlas O began making their new track, ta da, I was back into realistic three rail model railroading. I’m happy to say, I love the Lionel Legacy System, my layout is totally operated by the Cab 2 and the Cab 1L, everything, track power, switches, trains, all locomotives, blocks of track, and many of the newer engines have Blue Tooth, and now voice control, it’s a Wow. I stay with one system, Lionel, I trust that they will be in business for many more years. Belonging to the LCCA, TCA, and a member of the OGR Forum, and being very involved with many friends all over the country with our model trains is so rewarding. The rumor of the Lionel Cab 3 App is exciting as everything is backwards compatible, that’s so cool. Another really fun part of the Lionel System is, I can take my Cab 2/Cab 1L remote to my friends home and We can run trains together. We can take our trains to their homes, or they can bring trains to my home and have a really great time running our trains. I’m fortunate that I can run trains on Dr. Jack Fishers layout, and Farmerjohns layout, and everything runs fine. It’s a hobby of men and women having fun with childhood dreams with this amazing modern technology making running our toy trains in a realistic way so much more exciting.  So, I highly recommend the Lionel System as once you learn how to work the remotes, the accessories like the ASC’s, BPC’s, PowerMasters, and the Blue Tooth capabilities, IPad control, it’s so neat. Yes, it’s a hard decision, but you can find answers here on this great forum. Happy Railroading Everyone.

I like what you've done with DCC.  But realistically, the only ready to run locos with DCC in three rail were by MTH and their production of locomotives has dwindled dramatically over the last year plus with the downsizing.  Lionel, now by far the largest producer of three rail O gauge locos, does not have DCC built into any of their O gauge locos, to my knowledge.  Just a caveat.  American Flyer S gauge, as you point out, is another possibility if DCC is your preference.

@James Ingram posted:

DCC:

I see people  in previous replies -- advising against DCC.

However, if you're starting with a "clean slate", I would ask to you at least give DCC a fair evaluation -- before you "follow the herd" down the "proprietary path".

DCC is the "open-source" system used by just about every digital loco manufacturer in the world, from N to G, and including 2-rail O gauge -- so why would it not work equally well on 3-rail O-gauge??

• This includes MTH locos since 2011 when they released Proto 3.
• All Proto 3 locos can operate on DCC.
• Many of Lionel's new S gauge locos can operate on DCC.

The major computer-control systems that are used world-wide (TrainController, iTrain, JMRI, etc) are written for DCC -- not for somebody's proprietary system.

|-------+---------+

If you're interested in automatic control, you can do interesting automatic control programming by using the NCE Corporation's simple DCC 'programmable model train controller'-- see below image.

My amateur TrainProgramming.com video https://vimeo.com/654736533  tries to demonstrate some of the O-gauge programming experiments you can do -- to hopefully interest your grandkids in programming.

Not knocking DCC at all, it is a powerful system and you can do a lot with it you can't with DCS and Legacy. There are significant downsides:

1)In three rail the only standard support was MTH in PS 3.0, so if you want to do it 'off the shelf'  there won't be as much available.

2)Modifying an engine to work with DCC sounds easy enough if it has a DC can motor. In O at least space isn't an issue, in smaller scales that can be fun (from my reading of Model Railroader when they do projects to add a DCC controller to an engine originally DC only). You could run the layout on DC, or have a rectifier in the engine if still running AC (why you would IDK, though).  It also isn't necessarily that easy to wire from watching what happens when they try to upgrade an older DC HO model to DCC. Not that many people would want to, but older pullmor equipped engines would likely be impossible to convert , if for the current draw and their operating characteristics.

There are also features in DCS or Legacy that you would likely need to give up or do some severe mods to achieve (yeah, if speed control is the primary aspect of what you care about, likely won't matter). On the other hand DCC probably with the sound decoders probably has a much larger base of sound clips you can use (and I am not an expert in this area, just what I have read in the scale world in MR and other places).  And yes, DCC being open source means you if you want to do the work, can interface all kinds of things like arduino based controllers to it and the like.

The advantage is obvious, having a system that is open source and also is supported by a ton of companies and isn't likely to go anywhere given the size of their market.

@Landsteiner posted:

I like what you've done with DCC.  But realistically, the only ready to run locos with DCC in three rail were by MTH and their production of locomotives has dwindled dramatically over the last year plus with the downsizing.  Lionel, now by far the largest producer of three rail O gauge locos, does not have DCC built into any of their O gauge locos, to my knowledge.  Just a caveat.  American Flyer S gauge, as you point out, is another possibility if DCC is your preference.

Here's just my humble  *OPINION*  about how Lionel approaches DCC:

All DCC systems will operate with any manufacturers DCC decoders-- from tiny Marklin Z scale --up to the massive LGB Largescale locos.

Lionel is forced to include DCC capability with many of their S-gauge and HO-gauge locos -- because a lot of S & HO-gauge users are familiar with DCC -- and they would refuse to be  *TRAPPED* into using an expensive proprietary system.

BTW, I've been told the Lionel DCC is "seamless"; the loco "recognizes" it's a DCC signal, and not a Legacy signal, and it just runs as usual.

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However, my opinion is that Lionel does NOT include DCC capability with their O-gauge locos -- because they can "get away with it".

If a significant percentage of Lionel O-gauge buyers were to INSIST on DCC capability before they bought an O gauge loco (I know, I'm "pipe dreaming") -- then you probably would soon see Lionel O-gauge locos with DCC capability.

If Legacy is so great, then Lionel should not be afraid to compete "head-to-head" with the DCC manufacturers. (Such as MTH does.)

"However, my opinion is that Lionel does NOT include DCC capability with their O-gauge locos -- because they can "get away with it".

When Neil Young and Dick Kughn started development of command control for three rail O gauge almost 30 years ago, DCC was not a practical consideration as there were no devices that could handle the 5-10 amp draw of these AC open frame motor locos.  There was no sound (very important to Neil Young).  So they developed TMCC and Railsounds. There are 25+ years of sunk costs that hobbyists have in three rail TMCC/Legacy that are simply not going to be ignored to use DCC, which might now be practical.  The people who have three rail O gauge trains simply have no practical reason for using DCC in my opinion.  No one is getting away with anything. Just history and economics.  Not to mention that no DCC manufacturer (e.g., NCE, Digitrax) has put together a comprehensive line of decoders, boosters, sound boards, etc. that are specifically designed for three rail trains.  And the reason for that is the sheer impracticality of DCC in the marketplace,  given history and economics in the O gauge three rail world.

"If Legacy is so great, then Lionel should not be afraid to compete "head-to-head" with the DCC manufacturers. (Such as MTH does.)"

Not about greatness or fear in my opinion; see above. MTH introduced DCC into its locos because they wanted to appeal to the 2 rail O gauge hobbyist and the HO hobbyist, nothing more, nothing less. DCC in three rail O gauge cannot be operated simultaneously with PS2 or PS3 locos in command mode and PS2 and PS3 were MTH's focus in O gauge, when they were a full line company.  In any case, MTH wasn't competing with DCC, except in HO.  DCS was pretty much a complete failure at displacing DCC in HO locos, so DCC was absolutely essential to MTH's HO products one guesses.  Furthermore, MTH isn't competing with anyone these days, DCC or otherwise. They have apparently become a boutique manufacturer focusing on their O gauge three rail DCS locos.  DCC is present for the two rail O gaugers, but is not designed to capture any part of the O gauge three rail market.  No argument that in two rail O gauge, DCC makes sense.  But it's my opinion it makes no sense to most three rail O gauge hobbyists due to costs and effort involved in conversion of the huge supply of existing TMCC/Legacy locos.

I think the vast majority of O gauge 3 rail hobbyists are happy using either Legacy and/or MTH's DCS.

@James Ingram posted:

If Legacy is so great, then Lionel should not be afraid to compete "head-to-head" with the DCC manufacturers. (Such as MTH does.)

James,

Thanks for your incite.  I agree with all of it, almost.

I don't understand your comment above though.  Lionel is already competing with DCC, and winning, in the Traditional O Gauge market, and much of O Scale (essentially all of 3-Rail).

Why would they need, or want, to compete in DCC?  Perhaps to show off their engineering prowess to a market they do not compete in, and have no interest competing in?  Why waste the time and money?

What are they "afraid" of?  Losing their main market of 122 years (or about 30 years for the control system)?  Not gonna happen.  DCC would have to blow TMCC and Legacy out of the water, and while it's very efficient, quite good, and perhaps technically superior, it doesn't rise to that level.

Why?  Because this isn't about engineering prowess.

People like TMCC and Legacy for emotional reasons, not technical ones.  Because of this they won't switch from TMCC and Legacy unless and until someone pries them "out of their cold, dead hands".

BTW -- You're welcome to continue to try to convince the rest of us that Lionel needs to abandon TMCC and Legacy and switch to DCC, but it will not happen anytime soon, unless perhaps because the electronic components for it are no longer made.

Mike

@James Ingram posted:

If Legacy is so great, then Lionel should not be afraid to compete "head-to-head" with the DCC manufacturers. (Such as MTH does.)

If DCC is so great, why hasn't it made a dent in the 3-Rail market?  We can come at this issue from both ends.

Let's face it, Legacy, DCS, and DCC all perform the basic requirements of control and sound for model trains.  If there were a burning market for DCC in 3-Rail trains, then the DCC manufacturers would have products targeting the market.

FWIW, Lionel does compete with DCC manufacturers in S-scale, yet Legacy operation is far more popular than DCC for the Lionel products that will run both.

Looks at it from a different viewpoint.  Why doesn't Caterpillar compete with Tesla?  Simple, they're in different product arenas, and they're perfectly happy doing what they do best.  Would you buy a Caterpillar electric sedan?  How about a Tesla bulldozer?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

If DCC is so great, why hasn't it made a dent in the 3-Rail market?  We can come at this issue from both ends.

Let's face it, Legacy, DCS, and DCC all perform the basic requirements of control and sound for model trains.  If there were a burning market for DCC in 3-Rail trains, then the DCC manufacturers would have products targeting the market.

FWIW, Lionel does compete with DCC manufacturers in S-scale, yet Legacy operation is far more popular than DCC for the Lionel products that will run both.

Looks at it from a different viewpoint.  Why doesn't Caterpillar compete with Tesla?  Simple, they're in different product arenas, and they're perfectly happy doing what they do best.  Would you buy a Caterpillar electric sedan?  How about a Tesla bulldozer?

I don't know, last I heard they are building an E-Hummer *lol*....

The answer with Legacy is Lionel created it like 30 years ago ( w TMCC), they made a lot of engines with it and basically you had no choice if you wanted command control. Plus it was quite good and it went well beyond speed control and sound. 

The downside? If boards go on older engines can be difficult to repair them, get parts, and the universal replacement ( ERR boards) are only TMCC level. With DCC the control module goes you have options that are plug and play.

In S DCC was long established there so it would be cutting their nose off to spite their face not to offer it ( and if theyever offered HO, same thing).

MTH offered DCC w ps 3.0 if I recall correctly when they got into the HO market ( also allowed those who bought the 3 to 2 rail convertible models to use DCC on 2 rail).

DCC does offer things as an open source system legacy does not, you can upgrade controllers to use newer features, you can customize DCC settings a lot more than Legacy from what I can tell, you can interface computerized control through it via various interfaces and you can fix DCC engines a lot easier bc of the nature of DCC.

Again in 3 rail DCC doesn't grab on bc Legacy and DCS are what people know, does what they want and is built in,and has been around a long time so faced w having to convert engines over and learn a new system, they stay where they are.

In the scale world Lionel and MTH wouldn't get away w proprietary systems, they were too big a market for one proprietary system to become dominant ( or two as in 3 rail). DCC became the province of the NMRA and rest is history.

If 3 rail had been a huge market, rather than a niche dominated really by one manufacturer, with a lot of players, something like DCC would have happened, an open source system, but it wasn't.

I adapt to the realities of today.  The reality of today is DCC is at best a bit player in the 3-Rail O-gauge market, and I doubt that's going to change anytime soon.  Given that reality, I work with Legacy, TMCC, and DCS, they're the 800 pound gorillas of the 3-rail command control world.

If DCC were capable of operating with Legacy/TMCC at the same time like DCS, I suspect it could make inroads.  However, that ship has sailed, and I don't see any way that's going to change given the nature of the two incompatible control systems.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Why doesn't Caterpillar compete with Tesla?  Simple, they're in different product arenas, and they're perfectly happy doing what they do best.  Would you buy a Caterpillar electric sedan?  How about a Tesla bulldozer?

That may happen sooner than you think

DCC will never be a player in 3 rail O gauge. That ship has long sailed past.

As I've stated before on numerous occasions.

The Lionel Legacy handheld is the ONLY control system where the "meat and potatoes" of train operation solely by feel due to the clever design of the various tactile controls.

Some folks say it's " big and clunky" but only once you realize the genius behind how it allows you to look at your trains when you run them can it really be appreciated.

  I guess it's kinda like singing and playing harmonica and guitar at the same time.

I personally don't care to look at a handheld to find numbers to punch in to bring up sounds or features much less my phone screen,iPad etc.

I get plenty of screen time outside of the train room.

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

<SNIP>   BTW -- You're welcome to continue to try to convince the rest of us that Lionel needs to abandon TMCC and Legacy and switch to DCC, but it will not happen anytime soon, unless perhaps because the electronic components for it are no longer made.

Mike

Please note: I am NOT trying to convince any of the Legacy users to change ANYTHING -- just keep using and enjoying Legacy the SAME as always.

I'm just advocating some way to "force" Lionel to simply include the SAME DCC capability with their O gauge locos -- that they already include with their S and HO gauge locos -- which I'm pretty sure they could do with *no cost*. (Yes, a "pipe dream" for sure.)  

This would allow the estimated 1 in 50 (estimate edited from 500 to 50) of us that want to, the option to run a Lionel 3-rail O-gauge loco on EITHER DCC or Legacy.

An Example - One Reason Why DCC Capability Is Desirable: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

• The below "Chuggington Central RR" photo shows a 2-day-long public display I set up last November.
• When the kids push the "start" button, the NCE DCC 'Programmable Model Train Controller' automatically ran each of the 2 analog Chuggingtons (using DCC-controlled relays), then ran the MTH Proto-3 diesel in the center point-to-point and back. ( Youtube |Vimeo )

To my knowledge, there's no way to set up such a simple, automated display with Legacy or DCS; but you can with DCC -- by using a DCC 'Programmable Controller'.

It would useful to have the option of using these DCC Programmable Controllers with Lionel locos -- as well as MTH locos.

• Thus, I opine that someone such as the Original Poster (starting with a "clean slate") thinks they may EVER want to do some simple automatic control, that's another reason that they should consider DCC as an option.

@James Ingram posted:

Please note: I am NOT trying to convince any of the Legacy users to change ANYTHING -- just keep using and enjoying Legacy the SAME as always.

I'm just advocating some way to "force" Lionel to simply include the SAME DCC capability with their O gauge locos -- that they already include with their S and HO gauge locos -- which I'm pretty sure they could do with no cost. (Yes, a "pipe dream" for sure.)  

This would allow the estimated 1 in 500 of us that want to, the option to run a Lionel 3-rail O-gauge loco on EITHER DCC or Legacy.

An Example - One Reason Why DCC Capability Is Desirable: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

• The below "Chuggington Central RR" photo shows a 2-day-long public display I set up last November.
• When the kids push the "start" button, the NCE DCC 'Programmable Model Train Controller' automatically ran each of the 2 analog Chuggingtons (using DCC-controlled relays), then ran the MTH Proto-3 diesel in the center point-to-point and back. ( Youtube |Vimeo )

To my knowledge, there's no way to set up such a simple, automated display with Legacy or DCS; but you can with DCC -- by using a DCC 'Programmable Controller'.

It would useful to have the option of using these DCC Programmable Controllers with Lionel locos -- as well as MTH locos.

• Thus, I opine that someone such as the Original Poster (starting with a "clean slate") thinks they may EVER want to do some simple automatic control, that's another reason that they should consider DCC as an option.

You are suggesting Lionel add a feature to all their locomotives that is only used by 1 out every 500 of its customers?? So have 499 out of 500 of Lionel’s customers pay extra for a feature only used by 1 out of every 500?

@James Ingram posted:

Please note: I am NOT trying to convince any of the Legacy users to change ANYTHING -- just keep using and enjoying Legacy the SAME as always.

I'm just advocating some way to "force" Lionel to simply include the SAME DCC capability with their O gauge locos -- that they already include with their S and HO gauge locos -- which I'm pretty sure they could do with *no cost*. (Yes, a "pipe dream" for sure.)  

This would allow the estimated 1 in 50 (estimate edited from 500 to 50) of us that want to, the option to run a Lionel 3-rail O-gauge loco on EITHER DCC or Legacy.

First off, I doubt it's "free" to Lionel to add DCC.  Also, you're not going to "force" Lionel to do anything, they're the 800 pound gorilla in the room right now.  I also would have to say that your one in fifty estimate is probably off by a considerable margin.  Since running TMCC/Legacy/DCS is incompatible with DCC on the same tracks, it's likely very few 3-rail folks actually go for DCC.  I personally know of only one, and it's you.

My long term involvement in OGauge included the usual:  3rail track, conventional control and TMCC. Recently, as part of my support work for a number of system suppliers, I was introduced to DCC.  After carefully studying DCC and operating in this format in OGauge for some time, I have concluded that it is a well designed system concept with an enormous amount of useful operating features.

@BOB WALKER posted:

My long term involvement in OGauge included the usual:  3rail track, conventional control and TMCC. Recently, as part of my support work for a number of system suppliers, I was introduced to DCC.  After carefully studying DCC and operating in this format in OGauge for some time, I have concluded that it is a well designed system concept with an enormous amount of useful operating features.

But you are not saying it is better than Legacy and you are not saying that you are going to convert your locomotives to DCC. Or have you converted your locomotives to DCC?

@BOB WALKER posted:

My long term involvement in OGauge included the usual:  3rail track, conventional control and TMCC. Recently, as part of my support work for a number of system suppliers, I was introduced to DCC.  After carefully studying DCC and operating in this format in OGauge for some time, I have concluded that it is a well designed system concept with an enormous amount of useful operating features.

Mr. Walker - I disagree with you to some extent on the "well designed system concept" of DCC.  There is clearly gaps in the design; the elephant in the room being two way communication.  I know there is RailCom and the cut-outs that introduce the two way communication but it is such a horrible kludge.  Even the electronics used to push/pull the RailCom signal during the cut-out has yet to being fully integrated and finalized.  What would be nice at this point in history would be for the development of a DCC2 protocol.

Having said that, the customization/programming aspects of DCC are much more advanced than TMCC or DCS.  The introduction of the LokSound 5 line from ESU really opens up the field.  One of the biggest features is their superb software to customize your own sound experience and, essentially, build your own firmware.  I have debated creating a discussion topic related to the fact that MTH made a grave error in not, at the very least, opening up their system for customizable sound.  (If you see a MTH CSX ES44AC go flying through the air, it's mine.)

The other area that DCC needs to be cleaned up in is Consists.  While they support consists, it is a graft onto the existing DCC protocol.  This makes it clumsy none to say the least.

However, DCC does lend itself well to automation and the number of controllers available leaves no one wanting.

Anthony

I think DCC is getting far more air time on this thread than it deserves. I mean,  is DCC really a realistic option for the OP? He was asking about what O gauge control system he should build he layout with. He isn’t going to do it with DCC.

@Madockawando posted:

I think DCC is getting far more air time on this thread than it deserves. I mean,  is DCC really a realistic option for the OP? He was asking about what O gauge control system he should build he layout with. He isn’t going to do it with DCC.

We all know where you stand nothing is better than Lionel and Legacy you have stated many times.

@Shawn_Chronister posted:

We all know where you stand nothing is better than Lionel and Legacy you have stated many times.

Okay, am I wrong:?

The OP asked about a control system for his new layout. Is DCC a realistic option? Yes or no. If no, why are we talking about DCC? Lionel will never, ever install it in their locomotives. The MTH DCS company isn’t going to support it. I’m not sure what the point is and talking about it doesn’t answer the OP’s question.

I have no axe to grind against DCC, but for 3-rail O-gauge you give up an enormous amount of product to make that choice.  If you're not planning on rolling your own when it comes to all the 3-rail locomotive electronics, then DCC simply isn't a smart choice.  This is not a choice between the "best" and "worst" control systems for model trains, it's simply a matter of adjusting to the reality of the present day market.

I may be way off base, but it sure doesn't sound to me like Dave wants to start ripping the guts out of his Legacy locomotives and installing DCC!

Let's review the OP's desires and see if we can't adjust the recommendations to the reality of the commercial products available in the 3-rail world.

@davehall83 posted:

Hello,

So i have a topic in another forum and we have decided on a layout but now the question is, what transformer and what type of control system for this layout. TMCC, Lionel Layout Control System, DCC, DCS?

I also have seen people talk about rail sounds and things like that to get realistic effects from your trains. I know alot of loco's and diesels do this but is there any suggestions on that part , i know alot of times you want to wire things as you go because it may require a solder connection to the track or some type of sensor installed. I havent tried any of these things yet but there are so many options out there picking the right one or best one is always tricky

Heres a link to the track planning we came up with from doubledaz and others but suggested i start in this forum to figure out which way to go.

Since i havent done anything more than a conventional transformer in the past this is all new to me and what is the most current thing IE is lionel layout controls sytem on the ipad the best way to go and for power and all that?

Scarm drawing attached

@Madockawando posted:

Okay, am I wrong:?

The OP asked about a control system for his new layout. Is DCC a realistic option? Yes or no. If no, why are we talking about DCC? Lionel will never, ever install it in their locomotives. The MTH DCS company isn’t going to support it. I’m not sure what the point is and talking about it doesn’t answer the OP’s question.

I am not taking sides I think this has been a very enlightening discussion. You have a clear defined side and nothing anyone can say or do will change it. MTH DCS company clearly already supports it because every PS 3 board has DCC!!!

The fact that this was posted to the Lionel TMCC , Legacy & ERR Forum is probably a good indication where the original poster is leaning. I don't see how DCC is an affordable and practical option in 3-rail for most folks.

@Shawn_Chronister posted:

I am not taking sides I think this has been a very enlightening discussion. You have a clear defined side and nothing anyone can say or do will change it. MTH DCS company clearly already supports it because every PS 3 board has DCC!!!

My point has been simply that DCC is not a realistic option for the OP to build a layout with. Beyond that, I have made no recommendation to the OP on what system he should use. There really isn’t any point  in talking about DCC. Do you use it? If MTH is so into DCC, why do they even bother to offer their own proprietary system? I suspect that the vast majority of MTH fans don’t bother with DCC either. So why should the OP even consider it?

"every PS 3 board has DCC!"

True, but there are some caveats.  One is that you cannot operate MTH locos simultaneously on a layout with DCC and PS3.  The two systems are not compatible.  PS3 was designed to include DCC to appeal to the 2 rail O gauge hobbyist and the HO hobbyist (HO is no longer an MTH product line).  And to be optimistic we are assuming that PS3 boards are now available and will be available for the long haul.  That remains to be demonstrated for the future.  Thus however much one might like and respect DCC's capabilities, they are not relevant to most people who own or will own three rail O gauge trains in the near future.  That's the opinion of a fair number of experienced and/or technically expert hobbyists who have commented.  Things could change, but I'm guessing DCC for three rail O gauge is only slightly more likely as a trend than that warm place freezing over. No offense intended to those who love DCC.    I have a nice NCE system for N gauge trains myself.

@Madockawando posted:

My point has been simply that DCC is not a realistic option for the OP to build a layout with. Beyond that, I have made no recommendation to the OP on what system he should use. There really isn’t any point  in talking about DCC. Do you use it? If MTH is so into DCC, why do they even bother to offer their own proprietary system? I suspect that the vast majority of MTH fans don’t bother with DCC either. So why should the OP even consider it?

DCS came first so they have their own proprietary system for that very reason. But chose to add DCC with the HO line to help break into HO and the it became pat O gauge line and that where we 3/2 and Fixed pilot versions. I personally think HO was a mistake for MTH and they kill themselves in the G Scale market buy not making there system work LGB magnetic triggers and trying to stay proprietary. I too think DCC is unlikely to revolutionize O Gauge.

But you answers are always based on bias.

I do not use DCC because I am entrenched in DCS and Legacy systems do I wished I had some feature to build my own sound sets yes for both platforms.

I’m with RickO,   I like Lionel Legacy, possibly get an extra Cab 1L remote,  fun to run trains with friends. The KISS system, keep it simple. Check out Lionel’s new 2022 Signature Catalog soon, around January 19. Happy Railroading Everyone

@Landsteiner posted:

"every PS 3 board has DCC!"

True, but there are some caveats.  One is that you cannot operate MTH locos simultaneously on a layout with DCC and PS3.  The two systems are not compatible.  PS3 was designed to include DCC to appeal to the 2 rail O gauge hobbyist and the HO hobbyist (HO is no longer an MTH product line).  And to be optimistic we are assuming that PS3 boards are now available and will be available for the long haul.  That remains to be demonstrated for the future.  Thus however much one might like and respect DCC's capabilities, they are not relevant to most people who own or will own three rail O gauge trains in the near future.  That's the opinion of a fair number of experienced and/or technically expert hobbyists who have commented.  Things could change, but I'm guessing DCC for three rail O gauge is only slightly more likely as a trend than that warm place freezing over. No offense intended to those who love DCC.    I have a nice NCE system for N gauge trains myself.

Yeah I know this as I am certified ASC and I took the time to read every comment.

@Shawn_Chronister posted:

DCS came first so they have their own proprietary system for that very reason. But chose to add DCC with the HO line to help break into HO and the it became pat O gauge line and that where we 3/2 and Fixed pilot versions. I personally think HO was a mistake for MTH and they kill themselves in the G Scale market buy not making there system work LGB magnetic triggers and trying to stay proprietary. I too think DCC is unlikely to revolutionize O Gauge.

But you answers are always based on bias.

I do not use DCC because I am entrenched in DCS and Legacy systems do I wished I had some feature to build my own sound sets yes for both platforms.

How is my contention that DCC is not a realistic option for three rail O gauge “biased”?  From reading the comments here, I would say the majority of people in the thread agree with me that DCC is not realistic.  I think I am in good company.

@Madockawando posted:

How is my contention that DCC is not a realistic option for three rail O gauge “biased”?  From reading the comments here, I would say the majority of people in the thread agree with me that DCC is not realistic.  I think I am in good company.

It's not just this thread where your comments are biased.

In fact considering this guys asked for help and only a few people have been unbiased and given him useful and helpful information making a choice is why I usually limit post on here.

This place used to be fun anymore it's just like the same politics I have to listen too daily.

DCC does not have any appreciable traction in the 3 rail O gauge world and therefore it really doesn't matter how it shapes up against the incumbents. Generally speaking, it would be an irresponsible recommendation for just about any realistic use case despite the fact that it can be done.

@bmoran4 posted:

DCC does not have any appreciable traction in the 3 rail O gauge world and therefore it really doesn't matter how it shapes up against the incumbents. Generally speaking, it would be an irresponsible recommendation for just about any realistic use case despite the fact that it can be done.

Now if you could just convince all the DCC fans of that point...

@Shawn_Chronister posted:

It's not just this thread where your comments are biased.

In fact considering this guys asked for help and only a few people have been unbiased and given him useful and helpful information making a choice is why I usually limit post on here.

This place used to be fun anymore it's just like the same politics I have to listen too daily.

LoL, do you really track my posts that closely? I think the vast majority of my posts recently have been on on the wish list for Lionel’s catalog. Oh, and I made a post about some new QNS&L ore cars offered by Pat’s trains. And I think I asked about how can we submit suggestions for MTH special freight car runs.  Since you are tracking my posts, did I miss any? 😁

@Shawn_Chronister posted:

It's not just this thread where your comments are biased.

In fact considering this guys asked for help and only a few people have been unbiased and given him useful and helpful information making a choice is why I usually limit post on here.

This place used to be fun anymore it's just like the same politics I have to listen too daily.

I'm going to chime in at this point and speak my mind.

1) @Shawn_Chronister brings up some valid points.  Here we have someone new to forum posting for help (@author) and look what he is seeing.  I wonder if we'll see any more posts from him?

2) I get a fair amount of emails from members who don't feel welcome on this forum.  The most common phrase I hear is "if you've not been a member of this forum for 20 years, you're not welcome".  I definitely felt that way when I first joined and I still do to some extent.  But I just ignore the politics and the haters and carry on.  I feel that there is a lot of push back to thinking outside of the box.  It's a must adhere to the old standards sort of ball game.  Well, I'm having none of it.  <<Next comment withheld>>

3) I think an apology needs to be made to @BOB WALKER and @James Ingram from some of you.

Anthony

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Now if you could just convince all the DCC fans of that point...

If I had that kind of influence, maybe DCC would have a place in 3 rail O gauge

@A. Wells posted:

I'm going to chime in at this point and speak my mind.

1) @Shawn_Chronister brings up some valid points.  Here we have someone new to forum posting for help (@author) and look what he is seeing.  I wonder if we'll see any more posts from him?

2) I get a fair amount of emails from members who don't feel welcome on this forum.  The most common phrase I hear is "if you've not been a member of this forum for 20 years, you're not welcome".  I definitely felt that way when I first joined and I still do to some extent.  But I just ignore the politics and the haters and carry on.  I feel that there is a lot of push back to thinking outside of the box.  It's a must adhere to the old standards sort of ball game.  Well, I'm having none of it.  <<Next comment withheld>>

3) I think an apology needs to be made to @BOB WALKER and @James Ingram from some of you.

Anthony

I'm curious Anthony... which system do you recommend for the OP? Legacy? DCS? or DCC? Or do you recommend that he start with transformer control first?

I took some time reading all of the posts and my thoughts are just this, i believe in an open forum and i believe any and all possibilities should always be considered which is why the forum exists right? I dont favor DCC, DCS, Legacy etc etc over any other system or each other. I just like to look at the pros and cons of each system and what it can do for me. I asked about all of them only because i want to know what the folks out here who have experienced personally using each type of system thinks about their systems and how those features may benefit my layout. I realize there is some folks who really feel one system is better than the other and there is some political heat over this as well. I am neutral to everything and always will be. I will consider DCC or any of the other systems if it can be used without ripping apart the locos i have from lionel. The thing is while ripping up lionel locos and making it work with DCC could be interesting, voiding a warranty from lionel on brand new expensive loco's is just not something that i am willing to do. For it to work for me i look at all of these aspects if i have to modify the train, if i have to do something rather unusual and how hard is it to get something like that to work. If it ends up being a science project that fails i definitely dont want anything to do with it because that can be one expensive science project.

I respect everyone's replies i am not biast or against anything said here, i feel that this is why the forum exists lets hear the good and bad thats why we are here on this forum. This allows me to make informed decisions and not waste my time and money trying to experiment with each system at home when i can ask and find out the pros and cons. Now that i have heard from everyone it sounds like the Lionel Layout Control System with Legacy and TMCC is the way to go based on what i have. I know alot of the lionchief stuff with the brand new lionel locos i have is what is preferred and the good thing is from what i hear it works with all that. I will have to ready what the difference is between legacy and TMCC and all that. But i need to start figuring out now how to wire all this up if i want to add it all. I prefer to just wire my layout and add all of them so i am not limited to what can be run on the layout IE wire it for legacy, TMCC and LCS. If i need to do DCS as well to run MTH stuff then fine too i just need to make sure the wires are done right first to make sure when i am laying track wiring is already being done as i go. Sounds like though maybe DCS should be off my list though with the state of MTH

After reading all the above alphabet soup I am staying with KISS and staying with Conventional Control and easily fixable and affordable post war trains.

Charlie

@davehall83 posted:

<SNIP> I will consider DCC or any of the other systems if it can be used without ripping apart the locos i have from lionel. The thing is while ripping up lionel locos and making it work with DCC could be interesting, voiding a warranty from lionel on brand new expensive loco's is just not something that i am willing to do.>

You're making the exact point -- that I have been trying to make for this whole discussion.

I'm opining that the 800 pound gorilla is AFRAID to give a NEW user like Dave Hall the CHOICE of using DCC or Legacy to run his O-gauge Lionel locos -- so they're "TRAPPING" him into having to use their proprietary Legacy system.

Although apparently very few {edited} members of this Forum uses DCC to run 3-rail O-gauge -- if you did, you'd be part of the very LARGE group of people all around the world -- that use DCC to control their MANY brands of Z, N, HO, S, O-ga. 2-rail, and Largescale trains.

Whether your trains are 3-rail or 2-rail doesn't really matter for control purposes; you've got the same "+" and "-" rails for both.

Cost: ====

I still believe that Lionel could provide this DCC capability at essentially NO cost -- since it's already engineered for their HO and S locos.

I'm betting that it's a setting of a "bit" in some electronic chip in the Lionel decoder -- that controls whether or not the decoder will recognize DCC.

((I know others DISAGREE about this COST issue, and I don't know enough to prove my claim.))

Stay Calm: ====

• There's NO need for people who use and prefer Legacy or DCS to get UPSET about this discussion.
• To paraphrase former Pres. Barack Obama, "If you like the control system you've got, you can KEEP the control system you've got."

@James Ingram posted:

You're making the exact point -- that I have been trying to make for this whole discussion.

I'm opining that the 800 pound gorilla is AFRAID to give a NEW user like Dave Hall the CHOICE of using DCC or Legacy to run his O-gauge Lionel locos -- so they're "TRAPPING" him into having to use their proprietary Legacy system.

Although apparently almost nobody in this Forum uses DCC to run 3-rail O-gauge -- if you did, you'd be part of the very LARGE group of people all around the world -- that use DCC to control their MANY brands of Z, N, HO, S, O-ga. 2-rail, and Largescale trains.

James,

In regards to "Although apparently almost nobody in this Forum uses DCC...", there were a few members who made replies to this topic (in favor of Legacy none the less) who in fact do use DCC with 0-gauge!  Don't believe me??? check out the "DCC: 2-rail or 3-rail" topic.

At this point, after this "distgussion", I'm in favor of Dave building his own control system.

Also, I'm still buying MTH HO locomotives.  That way I can run my test bed with my only TIU but switch to DCC when I buy my ESU Controller in the near future.

And, in all honesty, I loathe the way DCC switches the voltage back and forth between the rails.  I mean, what did the voltage do to DCC to deserve that?  Of course I plan to do something about that.

Regarding 800 pound gorillas...well, let's just say I used the "Block Member" feature for the first time last night.  I suspect I'll be using it again.

Anthony

The idea that Lionel is "afraid" of letting people use DCC is rather amusing to say the least.  DCC, as least as far as O gauge 3 rail, is a very small niche that the vast majority of 3 railers don't care about, don't want, don't use and at this point won't switch over to under any circumstances.  DCC is certainly not a first control system for a newcomer to build his layout around. 

I would recommend that DCC advocates for three rail start a new thread and present all the reasons why everyone should make DCC their operating system. Discussing it here really isn't presenting realistic options for the OP.

I would find that thread very interesting myself.

Is there a way i can wire my layout for all of them so i can run DCC , DCS, TMCC, Legacy and other lionel stuff? That way i can get the wire ready so i can essentially tap into all the wiring at once by doing some splices and just turn on the controls i need at the current time IE i run something that will work with DCC then i use that. Or maybe i just have DCC does some layout animations or controls or sounds while running LCS etc?

Strategic use use rotary switches comes to mind...

It isn't an emotional preference for tmcc or legacy, it is the hard fact the on board electronics that plat nicely with tmcc and legacy dont play with dcc.  Why would i want to gut all of my locomotives to switch?  I see no value at all.  Ill stick with the lionel platform, easy set up, easy to upgrade conventional locomotives and a wide selection of locomotives.  Off topic but i wonder why atlas decided to shift to dcs, my existing atlas locos that are tmcc are among my favorites.  Im sure im not alone in my resistance to buying multiple control systems. 

This has been discussed ad nauseum, but here goes:  Most of my locos are MTH so naturally I use DCS.  I also have a smattering of Weaver, Lionel, and Atlas locos, so I use TMCC via the cable plugged into my TIU.  It allows me to run all of my engines, and it’s worked for me for decades.  The guys who originally designed DCS were geniuses, IMHO.

@davehall83 posted:

Is there a way i can wire my layout for all of them so i can run DCC , DCS, TMCC, Legacy and other lionel stuff? That way i can get the wire ready so i can essentially tap into all the wiring at once by doing some splices and just turn on the controls i need at the current time IE i run something that will work with DCC then i use that. Or maybe i just have DCC does some layout animations or controls or sounds while running LCS etc?

If you wire your layout to run DCS you will be able to run TMCC no problem. AFAIK DCC will interfere with the other two systems.
When MTH was going full steam the question was which trains do you prefer, then go with that manufacturers control system. Now that decision has been clouded with uncertainty with changes coming rapidly whether its due to technology or supply issues.
I don’t envy your position.

Pete

@davehall83 posted:

Is there a way i can wire my layout for all of them so i can run DCC , DCS, TMCC, Legacy and other lionel stuff? That way i can get the wire ready so i can essentially tap into all the wiring at once by doing some splices and just turn on the controls i need at the current time IE i run something that will work with DCC then i use that. Or maybe i just have DCC does some layout animations or controls or sounds while running LCS etc?

Hi Dave, if I may make a suggestion. What you are proposing sounds like you are adding multiple layers of complexity to your layout. The more complex it is, the more frustrating and unreliable it can become. If you enjoy spending more time trouble shooting than running trains then well and good. But speaking for myself, I chose my control system because it's simple, reliable, and has a wide variety of locomotives available.

While I will not tell you what control system to use, I do suggest that you use a similar criteria when selecting yours. Above all else, don't feel any pressure from anyone to select multiple control systems just to make the various factions here happy. Select the one that is going to make YOU happy:  Finding one that is simple, reliable and lots of locomotives to chose from is where I would start!

@necrails posted:

It isn't an emotional preference for tmcc or legacy, it is the hard fact the on board electronics that plat nicely with tmcc and legacy dont play with dcc.  Why would i want to gut all of my locomotives to switch?

@necrails,

People do.  In fact a surprising number do a swap out.

And It certainly is emotional.  Within reason DCC, TMCC/Legacy and DCS all do the same thing from a technical perspective.  After you've chosen one of them there is no technical need to have it "play nicely" with another one.   It's a "nice to have" not a "gotta have".  This is a marketing challenge for the manufacturers of the individual systems, not a technical one, for them or for you.  Therefore the choice between the three is largely, but not completely, an emotional one.

Yes, you can argue about a few technical features, but by-and-large there is little technical difference between them -- except to the kind of folks we usually call rivet counters.

Mike

@davehall83 posted:

Is there a way i can wire my layout for all of them so i can run DCC , DCS, TMCC, Legacy and other lionel stuff? That way i can get the wire ready so i can essentially tap into all the wiring at once by doing some splices and just turn on the controls i need at the current time IE i run something that will work with DCC then i use that. Or maybe i just have DCC does some layout animations or controls or sounds while running LCS etc?

Dave,

The idea that some bit somewhere can be flipped to enable Lionel engines to run DCC is amusing but highly unlikely.  Real companies don't expend engineering capital and manufacturing funds to build things they may never need or use - the accountants see to that.

DCC is a non-starter in the 3-rail world that you can safely ignore.  Period.

As for wiring to meet control system requirements, there are 2 options:

• Star or Home-Run wiring:  This involves a pair of wires from the transformer to regional pairs of terminal strips.  Feeder wire pairs go from the terminal strips to the track.  That entire segment of track is electrically isolated (center pin) from the rest of the layout.  In its early years, star-pattern or home run wiring was recommended for DCS.  That may still be true, I don't know.
• Bus wiring:  This involves a pair of wires (the bus) running along the length of the layout with feeder pairs going to the track at regular intervals.

If you want to run DCS in the future, I would recommend home-run wiring (consult the DCS "brain trust" over on that sub-forum for the current thinking).  TMCC/Legacy will work with either bus or star wiring.

George

@davehall83 posted:

Is there a way i can wire my layout for all of them so i can run DCC , DCS, TMCC, Legacy and other lionel stuff? That way i can get the wire ready so i can essentially tap into all the wiring at once by doing some splices and just turn on the controls i need at the current time IE i run something that will work with DCC then i use that. Or maybe i just have DCC does some layout animations or controls or sounds while running LCS etc?

You can wire so that any of these control systems would be viable, just keeping in mind when you've switched to running DCC, you will be unable to run DCS or Legacy/TMCC at the same time.  OTOH, running DCS  and Legacy/TMCC together at the same time on the same tracks is no problem, I do it all the time.

As Pete says, doing the STAR wiring for DCS is probably the best idea, that will be compatible with any of the control systems.

@necrails posted:

It isn't an emotional preference for tmcc or legacy, it is the hard fact the on board electronics that plat nicely with tmcc and legacy dont play with dcc.  Why would i want to gut all of my locomotives to switch?  I see no value at all.  Ill stick with the lionel platform, easy set up, easy to upgrade conventional locomotives and a wide selection of locomotives.  Off topic but i wonder why atlas decided to shift to dcs, my existing atlas locos that are tmcc are among my favorites.  Im sure im not alone in my resistance to buying multiple control systems.

Because whether all you that say Lionel is so easy and should be the only control system there are people who still love DCS and there is a market for it. I like Both control systems they both have their quirks. I usually buy Lionel Steam because of the sounds and features and I purchase diesels from MTH or 3rd rail because of the fixed pilots i can get for that scale look.
Plus Atlas gets the benefits of using the MTH factory which so far has proved they can get the products out quicker than with there old factory.

They have not completely gone PS3 I believe in the recent catalog release they have TMCC equipment in there.

@A. Wells posted:

James,

In regards to "Although apparently almost nobody in this Forum uses DCC...", there were a few members who made replies to this topic (in favor of Legacy none the less) who in fact do use DCC with 0-gauge!  Don't believe me??? check out the "DCC: 2-rail or 3-rail" topic.

Re your above comment, I edited my post to say "Although apparently very few {edited} members of this Forum uses DCC to run 3-rail O-gauge . . . ".

Question 1:  Do you have any way to GUESS, how MANY 3-railers in this forum use DCC ??

~~~~~~~

Question 2: Re your comment, "check out the "DCC: 2-rail or 3-rail" topic":   I think you mean this one, right ??

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...cc-o-vs-2-rail-dcc-o

Thanks.  - Jim Ingram

Re switching between Legacy and DCC, I just saw this post on the other forum that @A. Wells mentioned, at https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...0#158251952107475460

This guy joedaddy appears to be already doing  it

It’s absolute malpractice to recommend to a new guy in the hobby that they immediately go to DCC. Dave (OP) go with Legacy or DCS or both. I would tell you though, you don’t need both to enjoy the hobby. Good luck! I have twenty locomotives and counting from one company and one control system. You can find plenty of variety in sticking with either Legacy or DCS.

The only thing is when it comes to major locomotive purchases. Make sure you understand what the warranty and repair program for that company. A locomotive is a sizable investment if you can’t get it fixed under warranty. Research and then choose.

Well it seems Lionel  may have  the above  a mute point , and go to you tube for the Leaked , new Lionel control system

@James Ingram posted:

Re your above comment, I edited my post to say "Although apparently very few {edited} members of this Forum uses DCC to run 3-rail O-gauge . . . ".

Question 1:  Do you have any way to GUESS, how MANY 3-railers in this forum use DCC ??

~~~~~~~

Question 2: Re your comment, "check out the "DCC: 2-rail or 3-rail" topic":   I think you mean this one, right ??

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...cc-o-vs-2-rail-dcc-o

Thanks.  - Jim Ingram

James,

Regarding Question 1: Not at this time, but I think there is a silent minority that has grown somewhat larger with the mess surrounding the MTH DCS and now Lionel Legacy systems.

Regarding Question 2: That is correct.  I assume you're familiar with the ESU Lok Sound 5L?

Anthony

@James Ingram posted:

Re switching between Legacy and DCC, I just saw this post on the other forum that @A. Wells mentioned, at https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...0#158251952107475460

This guy joedaddy appears to be already doing  it

My aim is to take that one step further and run DCC, DCS and Legacy on the same track at the same time.  I really need to go full on BORG and start assimilating others to function as auxiliaries to finish my projects.

@A. Wells posted:

My aim is to take that one step further and run DCC, DCS and Legacy on the same track at the same time.

DCC is electrically incompatible with DCS and Legacy/TMCC. You will never have them on the same rails at the same time.

Not advocating for any particular control system here, and like many who've been silent thus far, I think it would be great if there were ways to incorporate additional compatible control systems into 3-rail O gauge.

This discussion led me to wonder why exactly DCC and TMCC on the rails are electrically incompatible.  While searching, I found this reply from @gunrunnerjohn in this other topic TMCC and DCC which I think explains the electrical incompatibility fairly well.  That discussion continues and more is revealed about the whys and why nots for anyone interested.

The end of the thread left open the possibility of using bluetooth or RF wireless DCC concurrently with TMCC on the rails, but at present, there is no conclusive follow-up in that thread on the results of testing.

@BOB WALKER and @sinclair do you have any updates to the question of Wireless DCC compatibility with TMCC?

It is interesting (to me), that the problem seems to be with DCC having too much power on the rails. That answered a fundamental question I had, how could DCC signals corrupt TMCC or Legacy given they generate their command signal over house wiring. I could see it interfering with DCS signal, since both are put through the rails (though operate differently, I don't know if DCC is 2 way the way DCS is).

Anyway, you learn something every day on here. Me, personally, given that it isn't that hard to wire for legacy, and DCS isn't rocket science, if I want to run engines from both I'll put in both *shrug*.  The OP could also just install DCS and wire it to a Lionel track interface unit, and control both sets of engines (albeit not fully using legacy commands....). DCC to me doesn't make much sense given the context of three rail O as it stands.

To avoid the often cited incompatibility issues with track based DCC vs track based TMCC or DCS, as one of the forum members mentioned, a wireless DCC system could be an effective workaround. As reported earlier in this thread, my work with DCC was with a wireless system and it performed flawlessly. I was able to keep all of my other layout operating systems intact. I could not avoid being impressed with what DCC brought to the party. Over the past few years, I have tested and compared a number of different wireless based operating systems and DCC stood out. I am not suggesting that anyone tear out their existing operating system in order to implement DCC. My intention was to point out that there is another option, which when properly implemented can provide some really high level results.

@BOB WALKER posted:

To avoid the often cited incompatibility issues with track based DCC vs track based TMCC or DCS, as one of the forum members mentioned, a wireless DCC system could be an effective workaround. As reported earlier in this thread, my work with DCC was with a wireless system and it performed flawlessly. I was able to keep all of my other layout operating systems intact. I could not avoid being impressed with what DCC brought to the party. Over the past few years, I have tested and compared a number of different wireless based operating systems and DCC stood out. I am not suggesting that anyone tear out their existing operating system in order to implement DCC. My intention was to point out that there is another option, which when properly implemented can provide some really high level results.

Do you have any information or demonstration of this wireless DCC set-up?

@A. Wells posted:

Do you have any information or demonstration of this wireless DCC set-up?

Well this should be interesting…

@davehall83 posted:

Is there a way i can wire my layout for all of them so i can run DCC , DCS, TMCC, Legacy and other lionel stuff? That way i can get the wire ready so i can essentially tap into all the wiring at once by doing some splices and just turn on the controls i need at the current time IE i run something that will work with DCC then i use that. Or maybe i just have DCC does some layout animations or controls or sounds while running LCS etc?

This has been an interesting thread to say the least. I'm probably one of the few forum members who has all three (DCC/DCS/Legacy) systems on their layout (not that it's any special accomplishment). Unfortunately you can't have DCC and DCS/Legacy active on the rails at the same time even though the wiring to the track is common to all three. I select between DCC and DCS/Legacy via a toggle switch.

I also model in HO and already had a Digitrax system. Long story short I ended up with a new Digitrax system and my old Digitrax Empire Builder was put in retirement. During the rebuild of my O scale layout I decided to pull the old Digitrax system back into service. I am perfectly happy with DCS and Legacy. Both have their individual pros and cons but I enjoy using either of them.

My motivation for adding DCC was:

1. I already had a spare system

2. Most of my former model railroad club friends are in HO scale and all either own Digitrax systems/remotes or are very familiar with their operation. When they visit they don't have to worry about learning a new system. The HO club I was in had a large Digitrax system.

3. I have a ProtoThrottle by Iowa Scaled Engineering that I wanted to use on a few of my O scale engines. Those engines have the stock control boards removed and TCS WoW Sound decoders installed. They are then strictly DCC.

I like the fact that my PS3 engines have an on board DCC decoder. It's not the greatest and isn't as customizable as most other decoders but we still operate with them. They don't have a brake function and I find setting their speed steps to be difficult so I don't use them with the ProtoThrottle.

Knowing how you want to operate your layout and how much powered rolling stock you hope to acquire will go a long way in determining the type of system you end up with. A few engines, or sticking only to engines equipped with a PS3 board and DCC is definitely doable. If you hope to have shelves full of locomotives or only buy Lionel then DCC will be a little more difficult because you have to switch out the control boards. There's a bit of a learning curve there but if I can do it anybody can do it!  

I like DCC and it is my preferred control system to use but if I hadn't had a spare system sitting on a shelf I doubt I would have purchased one to add to my layout. We can argue all day about how things "should" be but at the end of it we're forced to deal with things how they are. Good luck with whatever system you decide on and rest assured that when/if you run into a problem someone around here will be more than willing to help you solve it.

Joe Shipbaugh

My DCC testing program incorporated BlueRailTrains DCC for wireless control. Included were SoundTraxx, TCS and ESU DCC decoders. The test program included track power and battery power operation. Details regarding the BlueRailTrains control module including a wiring diagram were published in an article in OGRR magazine Run314 Oct./Nov. 2020. All DCC decoders tested performed well, the major difference between decoders was the variation in CV programming methods. The adjustable CV's is one of the major unique features of DCC, but takes some time to fully understand.

My two cents, get a used TMCC set which are fairly inexpensive, hook up the one wire that will control your whole layout, buy a TMCC or Legacy loco or two and have fun! I'm not necessarily a Lionel over MTH guy but TMCC still after all these years delivers the most bang for your buc and for the little effort needed to get much satisfaction. Railsounds even on the older TMCC models are still pretty fantastic.

If you want get more technical down the road, go for it!

@BOB WALKER posted:

My DCC testing program incorporated BlueRailTrains DCC for wireless control. Included were SoundTraxx, TCS and ESU DCC decoders. The test program included track power and battery power operation. Details regarding the BlueRailTrains control module including a wiring diagram were published in an article in OGRR magazine Run314 Oct./Nov. 2020. All DCC decoders tested performed well, the major difference between decoders was the variation in CV programming methods. The adjustable CV's is one of the major unique features of DCC, but takes some time to fully understand.

Sigh.  I should have known someone would have already thought of the concept and implemented it.  Very good choice for the full bridge for the 5 Amp version.  I try to add to my collection of the L6205's every year before they reach EOL.  Looks like we chose differently for the full bridge chip for the 2 Amp version.  I wonder if this add-on is not more popular and well known because of the blue tooth aspect.  (BT is the work of Satan as far as I'm concerned.)  I see a few other minor differences from my spec and I doubt very much BRT intended to support RailCom.  I was intending just to shove something on the end of the ESU Controller output and have it "decoded" and RFed to the appropriate locomotive to start with.

I don't see any for sale though.

Oh well, I can put this aside and move on to something else now.

Anthony

thank you Gerry.. here is what I have going right now..and from this point ..all suggestions welcome. I have a small 1033 transformer. After speaking with some I guess the perfect use for that will be accessories. I just got a ZW that was all rebuilt by a local train guy here where I live. From what I've been told this will have enough power to run the layout. I was told by my local "O" dealer that the TIU needed to run my MTH engine is out of stock, bloated prices on the secondary market and sometime in spring a new platform will be released that will be the TIU, a wireless system and the platform will use a smart phone or tablet..no hand held is spoken of at this time. All of this said.. I can run conventional with the ZW.. I want to know more about the TMCC that you speak of. And, I guess I'll see what happens in the spring with this new Atlas/MTH platform. Thank you for your reply Gerry.. it's greatly appreciated.. oh by the way.. I have about all the track that I need for my complete three loop track plan. I'll be posting a video about that announcement in a few days on my YouTube channel.

Based on the 2022 catalog, in the area of control systems, Lionel is moving further in the direction of wireless control (RF, Bluetooth & Wi-Fi)  and smart device based apps. Another key positive move is that the Bluetooth short range issue will be rectified.

I just saw this too with the Lionel Base 3 & Cab3 and the fact they are integrating a bunch of technologies in one and making it the all in one solution with the Cab 3 is awesome, i think this is my goto setup for controls at least "1" of my setups lol

I do wonder what is this feature that they mention "The Cab3 App will open doors for brand new features like our 4 digit addressing feature - available for the first time on our new Vision Class A"

I wonder what a Vision Class A is and what addressing feature will mean IE address of remote switches of all vendor types, maybe some DCC similarities here or DCS?

One other question i have if i buy the Base 3 Lionel system how does the track power work? What power bricks do or can i buy from lionel the powerhouse ones, the legacy ones , the zw-l ? With all that i am trying to understand where you hook it up to the base 3 system and i did see the have a power distribution module for it as an LCS module but that doesn’t answer my question really because that’s just LCS if i want to use the other features lion chief , tmcc etc etc how do you hook the power up and this thing control it

@davehall83 posted:

One other question i have if i buy the Base 3 Lionel system how does the track power work? What power bricks do or can i buy from lionel the powerhouse ones, the legacy ones , the zw-l ? With all that i am trying to understand where you hook it up to the base 3 system and i did see the have a power distribution module for it as an LCS module but that doesn’t answer my question really because that’s just LCS if i want to use the other features lion chief , tmcc etc etc how do you hook the power up and this thing control it

Track power doesn't change at all with the BASE3 addition.  It doesn't handle any power, other than low power for the LCS stuff.  Track and accessory power will be handled exactly the same as with the original TMCC or the newer Legacy command systems.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Track power doesn't change at all with the BASE3 addition.  It doesn't handle any power, other than low power for the LCS stuff.  Track and accessory power will be handled exactly the same as with the original TMCC or the newer Legacy command systems.

So i have always been confused on this particular idea i know how conventional power taps and bus wiring works but how do you hook the power up with these systems ie tmcc lcs cab and all that? Is it just wire the transformer to the track and this controller somehow controls those transformers?

@davehall83 posted:

So i have always been confused on this particular idea i know how conventional power taps and bus wiring works but how do you hook the power up with these systems ie tmcc lcs cab and all that? Is it just wire the transformer to the track and this controller somehow controls those transformers?

Dave - I think you're thinking of the Lionel Powermaster's.

@A. Wells posted:

Dave - I think you're thinking of the Lionel Powermaster's.

Are those the preferred ones to use ? or the legacy’s ? That’s what i’m trying to figure out is how it controls the power of it’s just wired to the track without some type of controller

Since you're just starting out, in my humble opinion, I'd get one 180W brick and a TMCC Lock-On.  (If you purchase a Fastrack terminal section, you may or may not have to buy a different attachment "cable".  I can track the part number down later.)  The U wire from the CABn conroller goes to a screw terminal in the TMCC Lock-On.  I found this route a good method to feel comfortable with what I was doing.  I did notice the TMCC Lock-On's have went up in price but once your comfortable with everything, you can always sell it.  FYI: The TMCC Lock-On's have short circuit protection.  While the 180W bricks also have protection, I find the Lock-On triggers before the brick.

This is all just my opinion.

Anthony

I'd forget the TMCC Lockon.  It really doesn't bring anything to the party, the PH180 brick has an excellent circuit breaker.  In addition, the TMCC Lockon kills the DCS signal, if you plan on running MTH DCS equipment, it's a really bad choice!

Finally, a long time ago, I was actually using the TMCC Lockon with my bricks.  Indeed it would trigger before the bricks, and it even triggered when it shouldn't!  To dispel the notion that it was just a defective lockon, I tried three of them, all had the same issue.  Out of a couple dozen TMCC & Legacy locomotive (and one MTH DCS model), it would trip on four of them when the locomotive passed close to the connection point of the lockon, but not other track drops that fed off of it.  There was nothing wrong with the engines it was triggering on.  It was an equal opportunity failure, a couple were factory new Legacy, one was a TMCC upgrade using ERR components, and one was a factory PS/2 engine.  This didn't happen every pass, just once about every three or four times by.  When we found out at the club that the TMCC Direct Lockon was killing our DCS signal, that was the last straw, I sold all mine, and I removed all the lockons at the club.

So what your saying is take the power house bricks and solder wires to the track correct ? Do the power house bricks connect to the base system first then go to the track or just take wires and wire to track ?

I'm confused by the difference between PowerMaster and the 'Direct Lock On' also.   Do they accomplish basic the same thing?

@Cathryn Mataga posted:

I'm confused by the difference between PowerMaster and the 'Direct Lock On' also.   Do they accomplish basic the same thing?

Not even close!  The PowerMaster controls track power.  It takes in a constant voltage, typically 18 VAC, and under command control it varies the voltage from 0 to 18VAC.

The TMCC Direct Lockon is a glorified circuit breaker, and IMO not worth the money.

@davehall83 posted:

So what your saying is take the power house bricks and solder wires to the track correct ? Do the power house bricks connect to the base system first then go to the track or just take wires and wire to track ?

For a TMCC/Legacy only setup, you can route the PH180 power directly to the track.  The TMCC/Legacy command system signal post is then simply connected to the outside rail anywhere on the layout.  The command base signal post carries no power, it's just a command signal.  Any power has to go directly to the track.

Obviously, if you run MTH DCS and have a TIU, there are other considerations to wire the TIU into the picture.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Not even close!  The PowerMaster controls track power.  It takes in a constant voltage, typically 18 VAC, and under command control it varies the voltage from 0 to 18VAC.

The TMCC Direct Lockon is a glorified circuit breaker, and IMO not worth the money.

For a TMCC/Legacy only setup, you can route the PH180 power directly to the track.  The TMCC/Legacy command system signal post is then simply connected to the outside rail anywhere on the layout.  The command base signal post carries no power, it's just a command signal.  Any power has to go directly to the track.

Obviously, if you run MTH DCS and have a TIU, there are other considerations to wire the TIU into the picture.

Does that apply to this new base 3 hub for lion chief and LCS or is that different ?

@davehall83 posted:

Does that apply to this new base 3 hub for lion chief and LCS or is that different ?

The BASE3 is the Legacy command system on steroids.  The LC and LCS stuff is tacked onto the Legacy command base functionality.  As for LCS, it appears they have integrated the functionality of the LCS SER2 module and the LCS power supply cord into the BASE3.  As for LC and LC+, I think the big takeaway is you'll be able to run them from your command system remotes or the new CAB3 software for the phones.

Truthfully, we probably won't know all the in's and out's of the BASE3 until a more complete description of it surfaces.

One thing is certain, it has zero power handling capability and doesn't impact at all how you connect and manage power on your layout.

Oh I see, our collection is mostly TMCC, pre-Legacy, but we have a few MTH, mostly original Protosound, and I'm considering a powerMaster, just to run the the MTH trains conventional with the remote.  Was just intrigued by that Lock On, because it comes in that little building., but looks like I'm going to have to figure out a place to put the powermaster.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The BASE3 is the Legacy command system on steroids.  The LC and LCS stuff is tacked onto the Legacy command base functionality.  As for LCS, it appears they have integrated the functionality of the LCS SER2 module and the LCS power supply cord into the BASE3.  As for LC and LC+, I think the big takeaway is you'll be able to run them from your command system remotes or the new CAB3 software for the phones.

Truthfully, we probably won't know all the in's and out's of the BASE3 until a more complete description of it surfaces.

One thing is certain, it has zero power handling capability and doesn't impact at all how you connect and manage power on your layout.

How many watts of power does a layout need ? For example the one double daz setup for me

@davehall83 posted:

How many watts of power does a layout need ? For example the one double daz setup for me

How long is a road Dave, it's a similar question?

The power required is entirely based on what you intend to run and the specific track layout.  Also, the power requirements will depend on how you organize your power districts.

I have about 500 foot of track, and I power mine with four 180 watt PowerHouse bricks.  I'm sure I have more than enough power for the whole layout.  My mainline is 140 feet of track, and it is powered by one 180 watt brick.  I've run three trains with smoke and two sets of lighted passenger cars on the mainline without issue.  The other three bricks power yards, my turntable and access loop, and the two smaller loops on the bi-level end of the layout.  They're also probably overkill for the power required, but I just really like the PH180 bricks and their excellent circuit protection.

@Cathryn Mataga posted:

I'm confused by the difference between PowerMaster and the 'Direct Lock On' also.   Do they accomplish basic the same thing?

Hey Cathryn,

I see you are new to the forum - Welcome, and I hope you have great fun with you and your father's trains!  The folks on this forum are very helpful and will steer you in the right direction with your questions. 

have a great day - JHZ563

@jhz563 posted:

Hey Cathryn,

I see you are new to the forum - Welcome, and I hope you have great fun with you and your father's trains!  The folks on this forum are very helpful and will steer you in the right direction with your questions.

have a great day - JHZ563

Agreed.  A warm welcome is in order.

We're all pleasant people here, and easy to work with -- well, most of the time.

Please don't hesitate to ask away.  We're here to help each other.

Mike