Help with two old Lionel engines

 It may be something simple to fix. If you are able to work on these with some guidance it will save on shipping them.

Describe the problem(s) and give the engines' numbers and/or a couple of pictures, I'm sure you will get replies.

Dave

First, welcome home.  I was in the Seabees, Dong Ha, Vietnam, 1968/69.  We had the utmost respect for you Marines.  

You have come to the right place for help.  As Dave said, try to post some photos and maybe a brief description of what the locos are doing or not doing.  Maybe we can guide you through the repair.

Welcome to the forum;  The gents here can advise you on just about any Lionel issue.

Thank You for your service!!

Thanks guys for your responses.  Neither engine will run properly.  They just sit on the tracks and buzz.  I'm going to try to post some photos of the two engines.  The plastic one is #8040 and the die cast 0-4-0 is #8506.  The die cast engine has a wire out the back for a whistle tender which I have.  I noticed the wires to the bulb--one side has come loose.  Does the whistle tender have to be connected for it to run?  I just uploaded a few photos.  Just hope I did it right.  Thanks again.  Yeah, I had quite a few Seabee friends when I was in Vietnam.  You guys are a very special group.  When I went to Manassas, VA. to see the battlefield, there was a Seabee convention in our hotel.  They invited me to come and drink with them.  What a wonderful bunch of guys!  I really had a good time.  They sure know how to party.

The 8506 normally came with what is called a slopeback tender, the wire is for the backup light on the tender.  If you have a whistle tender, it didn't come with the engine originally. Here is the catalog photo of the 8506, its from 1975.

Thanks, Ed, for the photo and info.  I guess I'll use a different tender with the engine if I ever get it running.  I bought several Lionel engines and there was no slope tender with the group.  Nice to have a date on the engine.  Thank you.

Do they move freely when you try to turn them by hand or feel like they want to move? Some engines you can't turn by hand. The 8040 has a manual direction lever. You have to move it from one position to the other to go forwards and backwards. Have you tried both positions?  The 8506 has a electronic E unit and reverses automatically when the power is cut/transformer handle shut off momentarily.

Yes, both engines' wheels turn freely when you turn them by hand.   Nothing is binding the wheels; they turn freely.  I pulled out the brushes on both engines and they look good.  The armatures turn freely as well when you turn the wheels.  I tried the switch from the reverse to the forward positions and the engines still just sit and buzz on the tracks.  There is a wire loose on the 0-4-0 that goes to the light bulb and I don't know where to solder it back to.

The whistle tender may work out for now.  I'm going to assume just the ac vs dc is new to you. Ask if we loose you .

What are you using for power?  (watts, amps, voltamp, and voltage max)

  The engine could actually run on a beefy dc supply (4 amp-ish) but the whistle tender would want to blow non stop. (whistle/bell uses a dc offset (ac with unequal polarity waves))

Can you turn the motor/wheels freely? (dont push it if it is a worm drive, they dont all spin free)

Trace the buzz. Likely a good thing, the switch and coil on top ofe the E-unit, which is a ratcheting cycled 2position (F/R) or 3 postion relay (F/N/R/N/etc). 

 The switch turns it on and off. You can lock the loco in one direction by turning it off. (or locks in neutral on a 3 position E-unit) Each power up should turn the contact drum. Watch it happen to at least confirm it works. Turning it on, and leaving on, may be all thats needed.

  It just may start working if you cycle the e-unit; tarnish. Also look, maybe poke, very GENTLY at the e-units contact fingers and inspect the drum to make sure there isn't dried clumpy grease there and the fingers make contact. Do the contact pads shine? Do contact fingers look dark and heat stained or nice and bright?

You have two motor brushes. Remove them, wipe them well, wipe the brush tube with a Q-tip. Note brush spring strength (stronger is better) clean the grooves between the 3 armature plates by LIGHTLY by dragging a toothpick thru it or flushing it with wd or e-cleaner. Clean old grease with wd or e-cleaner, etc.  Inspect that the armature plate contact area is nice and smooth & clean.  Re assemble, try again.. (a good e unit really doesn't need any lube.)

  Do you own a multi-meter? Looking for power, or finding shorts is next.

Okay.  I took both apart and tried them on a straight piece of track.  I got the 8506 to run in one direction by flipping the lever several times.  I think it will be okay when I put it back together.  I just don't know where to solder the bulb wires back.  The light bulb is darkened and probably is no good.  I want to put an LED bulb in place of the stock bulb and I know I will have to use a current limiting resistor in line with one of the legs of the LED bulb.  I just don't know where to solder the other end of the wire to the motor.  So, it looks like the cast iron 8506 will work if I can get it back together.  Will I need to use a full wave bridge rectifier to power the LED for the front light?  I have several SMD full wave bridge rectifiers that I use on my HO scale engines and passenger coaches.  The SMD packages are less than an inch square.  I use them in conjunction with a 3300uF capacitor to maintain flicker free lighting on my coaches and they work quite well.  I was able to conceal the caps in a non-window section of the coaches.  The SMD full wave bridge rectifier mounts directly onto my LED light strips and they have adhesive on the back so they all mount to the underside of the roofs of the coaches.  I do have one diesel Lionel engine that I put an LED in for the front light.  Guess I'll have to take it apart and see how I did it.  The Texas special only runs forward since there's no e-unit nor lever to change the direction.  I filled the hole for the lever with super glue and baking soda for a filler and sanded it down and painted it.  Now it looks like there was never a hole for the lever to protrude through.

The 8040 plastic engine still refuses to do anything.  I have another 2-4-2 scout engine that I bought years ago and I'm using the 50 watt transformer that came with the scout engine package.  I bought the train set used for $20.00 years ago.  The transformer works as it ran my scout engine that came with the train set.  And now I believe the 8506 will run properly once I reassemble the engine.  I guess the e-unit had some corrosion on it so it wasn't making good electrical connection.  The 8040 plastic scout engine does nothing, not even buzzing.  It's simply dead on the tracks.  I'm gonna pull the brush plate off and do some investigating as you suggested, checking the brushes and spaces between the armature.  Thanks for all your suggestions.  1 down and 1 to go!

8040 doesn't have an E unit so that rules that out. Sounds like something's just disconnected. You should trace the wiring starting at the pick up rollers.

Nice post, very revealing on ability .You can run a full wave BR, or run one diode for half wave (pulsed dc+, cap. optional), or use two led back to back so one works each polarity of an ac cycle. 

  Connection of a headlamp should be to track power unless you have 3 position and want the light off in N . But this also adds electric load to those thin contacts. "wipers"/fingers/contacts on the drum. If it only moves one direction then something is wrong with the eunit contacts.  They will warp from overheating or just loose thier sping sometimes. Clean the drum contacts and wipers.

Adding a big enough BR might allow directional lighting. (An ac motor can run on dc)

There are only a few ways to wire an ac motor. Switching leads on either brushes or field coil reverses it. (the field is an electromagnetic instead of "real" ones. Switching leads reverses its poles, like flipping the magnets.)

A plastic MOTOR scout is a totally different animal.(motor or shell is plastic?) Kind of a hard motor to deal with on brushes.and two or three versions (two big seperations of design). Tell us what you have first; is it turning brush holders or plain looking brown brush plates..then; does it reverse? 

Try just rolling the rollers with a little oil on them(and oil the square fuzzy wick a couple drops if one is there. Wipe clean, repeat till the black kinda stops. Try a flush with WD40 vs take it apart,(always re-oil after it dries).  Same on axles. You want to break down any tarnish or old oil varnishes ti make contact. If you suspect brushes, just go slow and steady. It's a juggling act, but not impossible by any means. 

You didn't say if you had a multi-meter but the reason I ask is for chasing down what may be wrong with an armature. 1. bushes out, the shaft makes no connection to the three armature sections. 2. the ohms should read very similar from section to section around the plate (it may run unbalanced in two legs).  On the field coil, there is no contact to the plates from the wire; just contact wire to wire 2-16ohm. Weak magnetism might be a short.

  There is also a possibility of an armature plate slipping, and turning just a hair wich can upset the motors timing a great deal. If the plate slips on the shaft under slight pressure that's an issue.

God Bless Rusty and all Veterans.

Good luck with your engine project.

I like the Top Hat and Tails!

Buzz

Yes, I have a digital volt/ohm meter as well as an analogue one.  I got the 8506 (0-4-0) to run but it will only run backwards.  I believe the e-unit is bad.  Still a no go on the 8040.  I guess it is not a scout since the motor is made of metal and not plastic.  I have just about given up on this project.  I guess I'll just use the two engines as a display/static display on the tracks on a siding or something.  Thanks for all your help.  You can refer to the photos I posted previously.  The motors are quite clean since they are newer Lionel engines.  Just wish I could make them work.

Semper Fi from a "guest Marine" - I was 1st Bn 4th Marines navy dentist in the 1975 Cambodia and Vietnam evaluations.

  The definition of Scout has blurred some to also refer to generic small 4 driver steamer, often with plastic shell or bakelite motor.

  The basics are simple. You have to either reverse the brushes or field to reverse a motor. E unit drum contacts in orange/ coil in green(on top), exactly how each loco is wired varies slightly, but the basics are here.