Hidden Treasure Located After 15 Years (Important Update 4-2-12

Awesome!  That is a treasure!

WOW!

 

there are a few guys on this forum who will be drooling!

 

(e.g. scale rail, southwest hiawatha)

If you don't have room on the wall, I have tons of room. Great find. Don

As a Milwaukee Road fan you're killing me!

 

Is it real or was made for you?

some of the real ones had the car number stamped on the back side of the logo for what car it was to go onto.

 

Here's a Hiawatha ad inside a Super Dome on the Napa Valley Wine Train

That's beautiful, It's going to look awesome in your gorgeous train room

 

Alex

Brian - That is fabulous! It is exactly like the one I saw in the Milwaukee Road full dome car that we rode in from Chicago to Quincy earlier this year. The Milwaukee Road was a very classy railroad and had great logos and unique passenger cars.

 

This is right up there with your El Capitan drumhead for railroad memorabilia.

 

Perfect addition to the train room of a man that loves passenger trains.

 

Art 

Brian what a WONDERFUL TREASURE to reunite with!!!! C O N G R A T 'S!!!!!!

Hope once you have it mounted in your place of HONOR you will share some pictures with us.

Mike:

The number forged into the back of my emblem is "7723". Thanks for the info.

 

One of these days, it will be good to visit my Chicago area buddies, I guess the last time I saw you was at a Dupage meet.

That is sweet!

 

Love the Hiawatha.

 

You are very priviledged to have that Hiawatha emblem! The closest I have to it is a photo of the one on the skytop observation car that was on display at the Milwaukee Museum of Art a few years back. As a fervid Milwaukee Road fan, that would be a treasure for me. I am old enough to have ridden on the passenger trains of the Milw. Rd when I was a young boy. As Chugman said, "classy railroad with great logos and cars, the Hiawatha emblem is just one of many pieces of the Milw. Rd. that made that railroad really stand out from the rest of the crowd. Enjoy it! Paul 

Wow, thats cool. What a find!

Wow Brian, what a beautiful piece to have in a train room.  Especially for a passenger train enthusiast.
That is as sharp as the classic automobile hood ornaments of the thirties...like from Pierce Arrow, Pontiac, etc...

Yes! Now that's what I call a collectible.

Mike Slater turned me on to this. So a big thanks go to Mike. The emblem # is 7723 and after some research, this car is alive and well at a museum in Daytona Beach. It is a Sky-Top which is one of my favorite styles of passenger cars (I have two, one in orange/red and one in yellow/grey.

 

This tuned out better than I could have possibly imagined.

Brian - Here are a couple pictures of the Milwaukee Road full dome car that we recently rode in. The Hiawatha symbol in it is a brushed nickel or chrome instead of the brass color of yours. I like yours better, it has a richer look to it in my opinion.

You have a wonderful treasure and I bet it is going to look really great on your wall.

 

The Hiawatha emblem is probably the best looking of all Railroad symbols.

Unlike the PA, UP, NYC. ect, ect it is a piece of Modernism art that  is going to to a appeal to a very wide variety of people.

Have you given any thought to the type of framing you are going to use? A black and white photo of a train station behind it would bring it out and add some subject depth to it.

 

In any case it is a beautiful thing and I'm sure it will look great no matter what you do with it.

Without question its definitely a valuable collectors item and don't let anybody tell you otherwise. There are plenty of antique dealers and collectors out there who'd love to get their hands on one. Just guessing - most likely worth somewhere between $1000 to $1500 give its excellent original condition - i.e. no discoloration or missing pieces. Whatever you decide to do with it please don't repaint it or try to clean it!

 

It's a real keeper................

 

Mario:

 

What I thought I would do is to have it professionally framed with the Hiawatha orange in the center of the emblem and the appropriate red surrounding it. I would have the framer simply screw the emblem (where there are holes) into the back of the frame and have a glass cover over the face of the wall hanging.

 

nyc, etc., I agree, it is a real keeper. It is special to me as it was a gift from a valued employee. I will be most proud to display it in my train room. Although I have several nice train pictures on the wall, this will have a place of honor.

 

Art, thanks for the advice. I will leave it it's original (perfect) condition.

Brian maybe consider an art light also on the frame.

Brian, Your concept of the framing sounds great. I hope you can post a picture of it when it is up and on the wall.

I am also glad that Art brought up the subject of not trying to make it look new. With something like this the patina is everything, It tells a story of true historic value.

 

In any case I hate to admit it but I am more taken with this piece then if you said your employee gave you a Big-Boy. It is really cool!

typically they where mounted on the outside of the cars,  as they where repainted to the UP colors many cars lost them.  If it was mine I would mount to an orange board mounted to the frame

 

enjoy it as I wish I had one

Brian - I really like your idea of using Milwaukee Road Orange as a background color and trimming it in red. I believe that will bring out the real beauty of the piece. When you look at the logo it is piece of real beauty and could stand on it's own as a piece of art unrelated to trains.

 

I can't wait to see it when it is finished and displayed in your train room. It will keep your Santa Fe Chief lighted drumhead good company. A very classy addition to a great layout. Nice job!

 

Art

Amazing piece. Im wondering how many offers you have had since you started this thread.

I can always suggest a little railroad museum in Sturtevant WI that he can always donate it to if he gets tires of looking at it .  No its not in my basement .  The museum is in a village park where I live.  We will be fixing up a 50' boxcar to place additional dispalys into .  Enjoy taking care of these items, and to think all the museum has of the Milwaukee Road Passanger cars is a floor tile and some windows

Zett:

 

I think that everybody got the correct idea that it is not for sale. It is always nice to know that it is valuable, but it is more valuable to me in my train room as a piece of passenger train history. I have two K-Line Sky-tops and it is nice to know where it originated.

You may want to check the area you live in to see if there is a casting foundry that will make a sand mold(sand just for molding) and see what it would cost to have a brass casting done from the mold, looking at the size I am thinking mold and casting 300.00 bucks another 100.00 to polish it. I did it for the retired navy guys when I was in CA. If it is as rare as you think it may make you enough for that new MTH Hudson Hiawatha I bought. That would depend how much you would charge for the castings.
The Maritime museum got request from time to time to have duplicates of the ships plaques if they had the original, They really were small about 12"x 6" and they charged a 100.00 donation to the museum. Now keep in mind that was 15 years ago when I was a volunteer there who got the work done for them, I am sure it is a little more expensive today.I am told they do not do that since I left. Just a thought.
I got one of them,love it!
.

John

A replica would be pretty cool.  How big is it?

Oh I definitely got that, but I also know there are some huge Milwaukee Road fans on these forums that may sell an arm or two to get an incredible piece like that.

John P, Jr.

 

The overall dimensions are 13 1/2 " by 18 1/2 ". I like your idea of a casting. I wonder how many Milwaukee Road fans would have an interest in having a copy.

 

Thanks for your response and to all of our Forum members who have shown an interest. It is truly a wonderful collectible.

I for one would be interested in a copy of the emblem as long as the cost wasn't horrendous. What kind of metal is it made from? Could it be cast in resin also?

MilwRdPaul

Paul:

 

Stainless steel I believe, but I am not a metallurgist.

 

As far as cost, I have no idea. If enough have an interest, I will get a quote before I do anything.

Thought I would pass this pic along of my better half.

 

A stainless steel reproduction would be an excellent idea except for one big problem - cost. I'm not an expert when it comes to metal casting techniques but I do think it might be less expensive to look into making a reproduction using either bronze or brass or perhaps some other material. Stainless steel is an expensive and difficult material to work with and there might not be many metal foundries in the US willing to do the work.

 

I'm well aware a brass or bronze casting won't look the same as the original but the cost might be more in line with what people are willing to pay for a reproduction. Maybe the metal repro. could then be plated to look somewhat similar to the original. Plating would also allow the use of several different casting materials - not just metal.

 

Anyway its just a thought..........

I agree with "Collectors" thoughts above. That said, any reproduction must be marked as such, so as not to devalue any orginals out there.

If you do decide to have castings made, I recommend aluminum. It can be polished to look very close to chrome. Also made sure the back is stamped "reproduction" so down the line somebody does pay a real price for a re-pop.

I agree with NJC JOE as to casting it in aluminum. The shipping costs would be lower because the castings would be lighter.  There would be no rust issues either. MilwRdPaul 

If the logistics can be worked out an aluminum casting is a great suggestion. As Joe said, it could even be polished to resemble a chrome finish. Come to think of it, it would make perfect sense that the original might have been made of cast aluminum to begin with, which would have been both economical and practical when the car was originally built.

 

Hope you're able to get the unit cost down to something near reasonable. And it's also an excellent idea to include a reproduction stamp on the backside of each piece cast.

i would sure be interested in a replica!!!

Hi Passenger Train Collector, I think by now you can see that a poll should be taken to see how many in this Forum would seriously want one. Besides this Forum, I'm sure the Milwaukee Road Historical Association would be another huge source for this emblem. I definitely would want one barring a huge price tag. Do you have a Tech school or University where you live? They might have an art course that could get you started or even do the project for you. Maybe the student could use this as a project for their grade. MilwRdPaul

You might try making a copy out of plexiglass by mounting the original to the plexiglass using its existing screw holes.  Then taking a router with a trim bit and roller to follow the edges.  This will give you a copy the same size with the addition of some silver paint.

 

Jan

If you can send an cad drawing i can price out lazer cut stainless replicas. Or mail a template.

 

Bill:

 

Thanks for the suggestion and the offer to help. I had a train buddy (IBE Jim) who suggested the CAD drawing approach with laser cut replicas.

 

I will keep you in mind if this goes further.

Here is a photo that was given to me of a skytop at the Milwaukee Museum of Art. The Hiawatha logo was fastened on the outside of the car. Again Mr. PCC, I would be a candidate for a copy of yours. Give it some thought.

Paul:

 

I most certainly will give this more than a thought. I have someone working on the project now. If it is feasible, I will make it happen.

A laser-cut reproduction from stainless steel plate might actually work but something tells me the cost of the stainless steel plate + finishing might be very pricey due primarily to excessive waste of material. And 1/4" to 3/8" thick stainless steel plate isn't exactly an inexpensive material compared with other metals. So maybe laser-cut aluminum plate might be the way to go.

 

Clearly the best approach would be to compare the costs of a laser cut repro. to that of a more traditional sand casting using aluminum to see which is less expensive and looks more like the original. And it's also worth keeping in mind a laser-cut version won't look the same as a cast aluminum version.

 

Of course all of the above comments assume that any reproduction will be the exact same size as the original.

"And it's also worth keeping in mind a laser-cut version won't look the same as a cast aluminum version."

what would the difference be?

Cast verses laser-cut:

1. An aluminum casting and a laser-cut stainless steel reproduction look very different. Sheet stainless steel comes in at least 7 different finishes none of which resemble genuine cast aluminum. The aluminum casting will have a nice patina and can be polished as desired or left as it comes out of the mold. 

 

2. The cast aluminum version will visually have a somewhat somewhat 'softer' look. The edges won't appear to be overly sharp - not hard edged - and a well done casting will be a very close approximation of the original. Whatever imperfections are on the original, scratches, blemishes or pit markers, will be transferred to the cast reproduction which I think is desirable.

 

3. The laser -cut version will look 'machine' made which in reality it is. The edges will be square and absolutely uniform given current laser-cutting technology. The results will certainly approximate the original but lack any surface 'patina' or 'soul' of the original - something like 1938 verses 2012 looks.

 

4. In the end its all about personal preferences and cost.......

Put me down for one.

Bill is a good contact as he builds some of the best ocean going yachts in the world and has many contacts in China. Don

Please be so kind as to add me to the list of prospective buyers of a replica. One of these would look beautiful mounted in a nice frame and displayed upon the wall of my railway room.  

I was looking at one of the other threads - how about a 3-D printer?  Finished product would be plastic I guess, but could be painted or chromed.  I have no idea what the cost would be, but it might be worth looking into.

 

KC

The 3-D printers which are relatively new to the market are fabulous for certain 'tasks', but not the right 'tool' for this job. Overall, the 3-D printer process is quite remarkable but I think the price per unit would be more than anyone is willing to pay for a repro.

 

There has been a lot of talk about what 3-D printers are capable of doing and not a whole lot of discussion as to the cost per unit which can be an real eye opener. 'Old' technologies like metal laser-cutting and or sand castings techniques are still the most appropriate 'tools' for this project.

 

I still think an aluminum casting is the best approach.

geez, i really hope this works out!   

I also own one of these original and fabulous Hiawatha castings and I too plan to frame it and mount it on my train room wall after I build my train room.  So I will be interested in following how you mount yours inside a frame.  Please keep all of us posted on your results.

 

Did you know there are actually two versions of this casting that the Milwaukee Road bolted to their passenger cars?  The first version is like yours and mine and has four holes drilled completely through the casting.  It is through these four holes that four bolts were passed to attach it to the outside of a passenger car.  It's my understanding the hole locations while similar on each casting but in fact were unique to each casting and the passenger car on which it was mounted.  As a result, to ensure the Milwaukee Shops could remount each emblem on the same car after a Hiawatha consist was repainted, on the back side of your casting you should find a stamped number, a written number, or both, which indicates the car number of the Hiawatha passenger car from which your casting was removed.  If it's there, with a little work you should be able to locate a photo of the exact Hiawatha car from which your casting was removed and see it actually mounted on that car.    

 

It's also my understanding that the ability to easily unbolt and remove these casting from the outside of a Hiawatha car became a problem for The Milwaukee Road as vandals regularly stole these castings.  To prevent this from happening, The Milwaukee Shops created the second version of this casting in which the emblem was attached to the outside of the car from the inside'  Specifically, the four holes were not drilled completely through the casting.  Rather, starting on the backside of the casting, the Shops drilled holes only half way through and then taped those holes for bolts.  This second version was then bolted to the outside of the car from the inside.  I understand this procedure was much more time consuming for The Milwaukee Shops but significantly reduced the loss of Hiawatha castings to vandals.     

 
Lastly, new aluminum castings of this emblem have recently been made.  It's my understanding that several were produced during the restoration of the various Hiawatha passenger cars now being pulled by The Milwaukee Road's famous #261.  I occasionally see some of these new, holeless, and unpolished castings up for sale at the various Railroadiana shows I attend but it's possible that the "Friends of the 261" may also have some extras for sale.  Anyone interested may want to contact them.  http://261.com/

 

Bob

Bob:

 

Thanks for your very interesting report. Perhaps you did not catch it earlier in this thread but I traced my emblem back to a Sky-Top that has been refurbished and is on display at a museum in Daytona Beach. It is really neat to have this wonderful passenger car available for public inspection.

That is really a lovely find. Please put me down as a prospective buyer if you are able to reproduce it. When I was in 8th and 9th grade I rode the Milwaukee Road frequently and the one way ticket price was 31 cents. I don't remember seeing one of these emblems, guess it wasn't the Hiawatha. haha!

Rich

Several of you expressed interest owning a copy of the brass Hiawatha logo.

For those who might be interested, we were selling these logos at the Milwaukee Trainfest and still have a few in our inventory.

 

These logos look like the original brass logo - and are mounted on an orange and maroon background that is ready to hang from a nail on a wall.  The artwork is large - 15 inches tall by 12 inches wide.  The "brass" portion sticks out from the background by a quarter inch.  The logos are constructed of layers of laser cut wood parts.  Even though they are wood, the painted logo looks convincingly like the actual brass logo - and is probably a lot more affordable ($49) and easier to display than the original metal version.

Unfortunately, the "three-dimensional" railroad logos that we produce (this is one of many) aren't available on our website yet.  (Our website only shows our "3-D" locomotive wall art - which several OGR forum members already own).  So, if you are interested in one of these logos, you can contact us through our website:  www.stoddartsltd.com

Alison Stoddart
Stoddart's Ltd Company

Brian,

 

Can't wait to see the logo framed up. Should really look sharp.

Joe:

 

It is a work in progress. Hope to finish this project in December. I will post photos. Thanks for reminding me to get this done.

Please put me down also as a prospective buyer. I'm sure it will look great when it is all painted and mounted. MilwRdPaul

Paul, I have not lost sight of you. I have a friend who is looking into replicating this piece at a reasonable cost. I am not in the sign business but he has connections that may work. It would be nice if this can be produced so that it can be enjoyed by many at a cost that is very affordable. I will let you know as soon as I hear more.

That is so cool!

We ended up with a section of engraved glass panel from the lower level lounge from a Milwuakee Superdome.

I'll get around to framing it some way.

We also had a curved section from another car,  but gave it to the people who ended up with the car.

"Several of you expressed interest owning a copy of the brass Hiawatha logo.

For those who might be interested, we were selling these logos at the Milwaukee Trainfest and still have a few in our inventory."

FWIW

i got one of these from stoddart's and it is a nice piece of work.  the surface of the emblem really does look metallic.