How do you think MTH trains changed the O gauge market?

In the mid-1990s I started buying MTH Railking locomotives. My recollection is that they were about two-thirds the price of modern Lionel locomotives then, and their quality was comparable to Lionel, so I felt I was getting a good deal. 

Did MTH shake things up by doing the above? That may be an overstatement, but I believe MTH did significantly impact the market for O Gauge trains by doing the above.

I also believe modern Lionel and MTH trains have caused Postwar Lionel trains to become more affordable. 

Have Postwar trains kept modern Lionel and MTH trains to be more affordable? I'm not sure if that is true, but I believe it's possible that the Postwar trains have helped keep the prices of modern Lionel and MTH from going through the roof. Arnold

MTH changed the toy train market the way General Motors changed the market for railroad locomotives.  No need to list the innovations. We all know them.  All I can say is congratulations to Mike W. for his courage and success.

Lew Schneider

For me, it was the Williams brass USRA series that changed the market.  The USRA Mikado was a model of a prototype l could relate to, and diverted me from old trains to "scaleplate" models.  MTH did make some new prototypes, but l thought made too many redos, as did Lionel.  New and different rings my chines.

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

In the mid-1990s I started buying MTH Railking locomotives. My recollection is that they were about two-thirds the price of modern Lionel locomotives then, and their quality was comparable to Lionel, so I felt I was getting a good deal. 

Did MTH shake things up by doing the above? That may be an overstatement, but I believe MTH did significantly impact the market for O Gauge trains by doing the above.

I also believe modern Lionel and MTH trains have caused Postwar Lionel trains to become more affordable. 

Have Postwar trains kept modern Lionel and MTH trains to be more affordable? I'm not sure if that is true, but I believe it's possible that the Postwar trains have helped keep the prices of modern Lionel and MTH from going through the roof. Arnold

O.k. lets that a look at mth train sets.You got a locomotive that could have been a rs11 or a 2-8-0.With track that had its own road bed.Meaning you could set up any where.A the sets had good sounds.Mike once said."Train sets are our way to get more people to come back for more.

colorado hirailer posted:

For me, it was the Williams brass USRA series that changed the market.  The USRA Mikado was a model of a prototype l could relate to, and diverted me from old trains to "scaleplate" models.  MTH did make some new prototypes, but l thought made too many redos, as did Lionel.  New and different rings my chines.

I have heard things about williams train.I have a conrail wc dash 8 and a few boxcars.I do not have any steam locomotives from williams.There is one williams by bachmann and that is the 4-6-2 locomotive.Have one of the coolest whistle.

colorado hirailer posted:

For me, it was the Williams brass USRA series that changed the market.  The USRA Mikado was a model of a prototype l could relate to, and diverted me from old trains to "scaleplate" models.  MTH did make some new prototypes, but l thought made too many redos, as did Lionel.  New and different rings my chines.

It was Jerry Williams that got Mike Wolf started in O gauge trains.

Competition breeds innovation.  Just look at cell phones, cellular service, computers, cars, TVs, etc.

Kline, Williams, Atlas, Weaver, 3rd rail, MTH,  and others have all impacted the industry. Better detail, graphics, variety, and hopefully quality.  Without the re-issues of pre and postwar stuff we would still be stuck in the escalating prices of postwar trains.

It's nice to have more options for sure.

aussteve posted:

Competition breeds innovation.  Just look at cell phones, cellular service, computers, cars, TVs, etc.

Kline, Williams, Atlas, Weaver, 3rd rail, MTH,  and others have all impacted the industry. Better detail, graphics, variety, and hopefully quality.  Without the re-issues of pre and postwar stuff we would still be stuck in the escalating prices of postwar trains.

It's nice to have more options for sure.

Well I still MTH did a lot of first.The first diecast 4-6-6-4 steam locomotive with both sets of drivers powered.I will always remember that seeing that locomotive in railking.And its sounds system blew me away.

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

colorado hirailer posted:

For me, it was the Williams brass USRA series that changed the market.  The USRA Mikado was a model of a prototype l could relate to, and diverted me from old trains to "scaleplate" models.  MTH did make some new prototypes, but l thought made too many redos, as did Lionel.  New and different rings my chines.

It was Jerry Williams that got Mike Wolf started in O gauge trains.

True he brought the stuff to make tinplate trains.

MTH was the first to start offering frequent variety of prototypes we all wanted.  Full credit to Jerry Williams for his contributions to the hobby, and introducing Mike Wolf to the business.   Also credit to Richard Kughn at Lionel for sparking interest in modern rolling stock and locomotives.  Mike Wolf took things to a level that in many ways went beyond everyone else.  MTH managed to make O Gauge trains mainstream.  Easily available catalogs and a dealer network.  No longer did we have to hope falsely for trains we wanted to show up in a sparse annual catalog.  Instead, a steady stream of trains we all were waiting for became standard MTH.  I loved the ads in MTHs early years, one featured a C&O Steam locomotive and an O scale man looking at his watch, the caption said something like "you have waited 48 years for this locomotive, " implying MTH will now be making trains we were all waiting for would be finally made.  They have had a few stumbles, and my Turbotrain experiences with MTH are still sore wounds. But 99% of my MTH is flawless and I am glad to have it.  MTH, certainly the most influential part of this true golden age of O Gauge. 

VistaDomeScott posted:

MTH was the first to start offering frequent variety of prototypes we all wanted.  Full credit to Jerry Williams for his contributions to the hobby, and introducing Mike Wolf to the business.   Also credit to Richard Kughn at Lionel for sparking interest in modern rolling stock and locomotives.  Mike Wolf took things to a level that in many ways went beyond everyone else.  MTH managed to make O Gauge trains mainstream.  Easily available catalogs and a dealer network.  No longer did we have to hope falsely for trains we wanted to show up in a sparse annual catalog.  Instead, a steady stream of trains we all were waiting for became standard MTH.  I loved the ads in MTHs early years, one featured a C&O Steam locomotive and an O scale man looking at his watch, the caption said something like "you have waited 48 years for this locomotive, " implying MTH will now be making trains we were all waiting for would be finally made.  They have had a few stumbles, and my Turbotrain experiences with MTH are still sore wounds. But 99% of my MTH is flawless and I am glad to have it.  MTH, certainly the most influential part of this true golden age of O Gauge. 

Yep!MTH meant to me you longer had to pay $600.00 for a mid size locomotive.My first locomotive was an erie berkshire.I have had it pull 25 to 41boxcars.And smoke really good and makes me think of watching an old movie from the 1940s.All in all I am happy with what I have.

aussteve posted:

Competition breeds innovation.  Just look at cell phones, cellular service, computers, cars, TVs, etc.

Kline, Williams, Atlas, Weaver, 3rd rail, MTH,  and others have all impacted the industry. Better detail, graphics, variety, and hopefully quality.  Without the re-issues of pre and postwar stuff we would still be stuck in the escalating prices of postwar trains.

It's nice to have more options for sure.

I totally agree with this. In addition, it brings to mind the old expression "It keeps the competition honest;" because it seemed to me that once MTH entered the marketplace - as they did on a big scale - over and above new innovations Lionel's attention to detail/quality even on smaller issues improved (eg. plastic couplers changing to more die-cast ones that don't pop open as frequently, more die-cast prototypical 'sprung' trucks etc.)

I wasn't really in the hobby when MTH was establishing themselves, but I always assumed that Lionel, under Richard K, was primarily producing reissues for the collector market and charging a premium. MTH was pushing technology and detail that Lionel was slower to adopt in their products.

Quoting Dick Maddox circa 1999, "They're eating our lunch."

I still have my first two MTH Locomotives the first "J" and the first "Hudson" they introduced around 1990 or so and they still run. As far as product support my Hudson took a dive off the layout and bent the cab roof pretty bad several years after I bought and my service center (no longer in business) took down to MTH and they repaired/replaced (not sure which) for no charge. I would challenge you to find the damage today. MTH made a big impact in several areas and still does today. All of my 50+ MTH locomotives were still operating when packed up for the move two years ago and after replacing all of the batteries I bet the will operate again. The only disappoint I have with MTH is my P5 and the Zinc Rot issue. MTH may still make that right TBD.

RJT posted:

I still have my first two MTH Locomotives the first "J" and the first "Hudson" they introduced around 1990 or so and they still run. As far as product support my Hudson took a dive off the layout and bent the cab roof pretty bad several years after I bought and my service center (no longer in business) took down to MTH and they repaired/replaced (not sure which) for no charge. I would challenge you to find the damage today. MTH made a big impact in several areas and still does today. All of my 50+ MTH locomotives were still operating when packed up for the move two years ago and after replacing all of the batteries I bet the will operate again. The only disappoint I have with MTH is my P5 and the Zinc Rot issue. MTH may still make that right TBD.

I got a railking j that has american flyer type smoke unit.Its a great puller that runs very good.The only thing I am very happy with my MTH trains.

My favorite newspaper headline was something like "when the wolf took on the lion and won".

I got back into the hobby in 1997 and began buying MTH Premier scale-sized locomotive models, which are the predominant brand that I have continued to buy during the intervening years. If I remember correctly, back when I started, MTH was producing a wide variety of new scale-sized models and Lionel was not. A few years later, Lionel began to catch up. I would say that Mike Wolf has been a wise business man and a visionary who has revitalized and innovated in the O gauge train market. The success of his company speaks for itself and, I think, the hobby has benefited from the presence of MTH as a major producer. Over the years, I have always been satisfied with the MTH trains that I have purchased.

MELGAR

To me MTH raisex the bar and took straight on the status quo!!!

MTH and others flooded the market with new product. This drove down prices of older Lionel - especially. MPC - over time. But it also made entry into the hobby more affordable.

MTH also pushed Lionel to innovate with new features, especially electronics. However, this came at a cost as prices increased on newer stuff.

MTH forced the move of production to China. That was a two-edged sword as we all now realize. 

All in all, MTH has been a very positive influence, but not without some fallout along the way. Consumers  certainly have a lot more product choices than ever before; whether that is sustainable over the long haul is a real question.

"MTH was pushing technology and detail that Lionel was slower to adopt in their products."

One's perspective depends on when one re-entered or entered the hobby.  MTH's major contribution was making more scale-like locomotives and rolling stock, particularly well decorated and relatively lower cost.  Lionel had done a bit of this, but nothing like what Williams, Weaver and Right of Way did with large complex steam locos in the 1980s and early 1990s.

MTH advanced that much further and added a lot more variety.  In the early 1990s Dick Kughn and Neil Young at Lionel were creating the first command control and high quality sound systems with TMCC and Railsounds. These were and remained far ahead of what MTH had to offer until about 2002, when DCS, was introduced to accompany PS2 (2000) which was an equivalent system in many ways.  Many found DCS to be more feature rich, but the sound quality of PS2 was generally not quite up to the sound quality of the equivalent generation of Railsounds.   DCS has many more functions but also was substantially more difficult to implement in some settings, as generalizations.  So I don't think most would agree that MTH has been the leader in terms of technology during the last 25 years, but they clearly have been the value leader and variety leader. 

During the early 1990s to about 2000, MTH used a lower end QSI sound and control system (PS1) that many thought was decidedly inferior to Railsounds in a number of respects.  It didn't provide command capability for one thing,  which had been present in Lionel products (and then K-Line, Atlas, Weaver and 3rd Rail) for about 6 years at that point (2002). 

But there is no denying that the variety of road names and prototypes that MTH introduced, particularly in large steam locos, was unprecedented, and great value for money, but Williams, Weaver and Right of Way also deserve some credit for this innovation.  MTH took this to an entirely higher level in variety of prototypes/road names,  and capabilities.

Competition from MTH certainly was absolutely the key factor encouraging Lionel to control their prices and do more variety and further technical innovation (Legacy, LionChief, etc.). It also led to the move of production to Asia and closing the USA factory Lionel had maintained for a century.

MTH also led the industry in lawsuits, for those who missed the 1990s and early 2000s.   That led to a fair amount of ill will in the hobby and industry, but finally settled down in the later 2000s. 

Thus it's a complex story, with MTH having played a large role in innovation and value proposition.  Perhaps not as large a role as MTH's most enthusiastic fans claim,  and not as minor a role as MTH's most enthusiastic detractors claim .

Mike Wolf and Jerry Williams saved - and created - the modern 3RO hobby. They both leveraged the Lionel image (if not the name) far better than Lionel did for a long time. Maybe ever. Without their "extension" of 3RO into scale and scale-like product, even Richard Kughn could not have saved Lionel - there was really nothing to save, had it remained what it was.

Let's not forget Maury Klein, and a host of others (R-O-W's founder comes to mind).

Lionel, though - they got the command control right. Not sure now that it's as "right" as it once was.

We have family garage sales now and then.  I have never had a person come up to me and ask "Do you have any MTH trains" but every single time someone comes over and asks "Do you have any Lionel trains."

Not sure that means anything, just saying..

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

It was Jerry Williams that got Mike Wolf started in O gauge trains.

If Lionel had stopped Jerry Williams from making knockoffs of their out of production 6464's neither Lionel nor MTH would be around today.

This is very easy to answer. Just looking back at Lionel's catalogs from the 1990's you can start to see a change from what they were making. I can remember some time back in the early 90's, my then LHS was close by and Jack was the proprietor. Jack was a very nice fellow and he would tell me what was coming out in Lionel(since that was what I was buying). Well, he happen to have some of the Newest MTH scale stuff in and was telling me about it. Well, at the time money was tight for me and I didn't want to overextend myself but you could definitely tell that the hobby was changing for the better.

The scale Class J's when they first came out looked like Big Boys to Lionel's engines. I can remember checking out another store(which is my current LTS) and the MTH scale engines dominated the shelves. I did inquire as to what the makes were in my field of vision and almost everything was MTH. I really don't remember too much of what was on the shelves that was Lionel, but understand that the ideas were beginning to take place in what the next big thing was.

For my part, I did pick up a Railking Daylight, the passenger cars to go with it, some UP Coal Hoppers and the N&W passenger cars that would have gone behind the Class J. Unfortunately I didn't get it, but that's okay. Needless to say the whole market changed for the better.

I will agree with others that state that Williams in and Weaver really started the change in the O gauge market.  Nothing against MTH products as I have many.  However the shift to scale trains on 3 rails really started sooner than MTH.

Granted Mr. Wolf was involved at some level with the introduction of budget priced brass steam locomotives at both Willams and Weaver. 

I resumed my interest in electric trains in 1987. I had had American Flyer as a young boy but in 1987 Lionel was the only show in town. Until Jerry Williams sold his tinplate business to a young friend and neighbor named Mike Wolf. His formation of MTH subsequently changed the hobby in the most profound way since Joshua Lionel Cowan at the turn of the last century. Initially working with Richard Kughn when he purchased Lionel the two came up with beautiful new steam engines from a manufacturer in South Korea that we all came to know and respect as Samhongsa. When the relationship deteriorated in the early nineties Mike was faced with a dilemma. How do I keep Samhongsa busy. The answer came in 1994 at York when Mike rolled out his first O gauge locomotive, the Dash 8. From 1994 to the early 2000's Mike produced three Railking and three Premier catalogs a year with a dizzying assortment of new tooling with engines and cars and accessories that heretofore we could only dream of. The Turbine series, the die cast Challengers, the big boys, and my favorite engine, the Erie Triplex. When Bill Benson made his brass steamers with Pittman motors from America, Mike Wolf followed suit. When Lionel came out with TMCC, Mike answered with DCS. One could argue that Lionel has had better sound in their steamers compared to MTH, but no one would argue who has the best smoke units. And, the current diesel sounds from MTH are second to none. As the demographics of our hobby changes, each company has had to make concessions eg. infrequent new tooling and reliance on fantasy schemes and well known entertainment brands. But, through it all Mike Wolf has remained at the helm with great help from his two supporting generals, Rich Foster and Andy Edelman. To my mind Mike Wolf is second only to Joshua Cowan regarding contributions to our beloved hobby.

It absolutely got me into O gauge. My father in law worked for Electro Motive after the war and took me to the La Grange plant for I believe their 75th anniversary in the mid 90's. While there they had a O Gauge layout setup and I was very impressed with the detail of these locomotives. I asked and they told MTH, never heard of them. Like the original post I too was a HO guy until the eyes started fading but didn't think much of Lionel due to the non scale size. I was instantly hooked on O gauge. Went to my local hobby shop and started buying MTH, until the fall of 1999 and wham, out of nowhere Lionel comes out with the Allegheny, then by Christmas the Big Boy. Wow! Scale stuff with command control from Lionel!  So, to sum it up if MTH was not around I don't believe Lionel would have introduced those models, which we all now enjoy.

Jonathan 

 Good point on Weaver.  Certainly a big part of the O gauge market for a period of years.  MTH was able to expand with increasingly realistic sound, details, and product lines.  Kind of left Weaver and Williams behind in these ways.  I must say I am a huge fan of Williams and own many of their passenger locomotives.  I vouch for their reliability and affordability.  Same with Weaver.  

  In the 1990s I lived in an apartment very near the Norfolk Southern's ex NKP line.  In those years the CSX had an intermodal train coming from the NYSW operating thru on NS with NYSW power, trains 290 & 291.  There was also an intermodal train from the CP with Soo Line, CP, and Milwaukee Road bandit power, trains 083, and 084.  My O Scale train buys were mainly aimed at recreating the real NS operations I enjoyed nearby.  Lionels first Dash8 in NS and NYSW Dash8 were some of my first O scale buys.  Then, MTH offered the SD60M in Soo Line, and a C30-7 in NS.  They were scale and had real sounds instead of awful buzzer horns.  The MTH C30-7 had a very accurate sort of hoarse sounding horn just like the ones rolling by up the street from my O scale carpet central.  Weaver provided me with a nice Soo Line SD40-2 but it had an awful electronic horn.  And so MTH began being my main source for trains.  Those early MTH locos had a lot of mileage. I must say, that Soo Line SD60M eventually suffered P1 death, as did the C30-7.  (I still operate many P1 locomotives that somehow avoided the known problems of that era).  I was for a while hesitant on MTH locos, but with P3 my MTH roster has swelled and all (exception being the Turbotrains) are excellent trains.  MTH is about 50% of my collection with Atlas, Williams,  Lionel, Weaver,  K-line, GGD, making up the rest. I recently finally replaced the SD60M with an even more accurate Lionel Legacy version with correct windows.   Competition brought about increasingly better trains.  But I firmly believe that MTH raised the bar, and brought life to O Gauge, and competition which forced more detail, features.  

MELGAR posted:

I got back into the hobby in 1997 and began buying MTH Premier scale-sized locomotive models, which are the predominant brand that I have continued to buy during the intervening years. If I remember correctly, back when I started, MTH was producing a wide variety of new scale-sized models and Lionel was not. A few years later, Lionel began to catch up. I would say that Mike Wolf has been a wise business man and a visionary who has revitalized and innovated in the O gauge train market. The success of his company speaks for itself and, I think, the hobby has benefited from the presence of MTH as a major producer. Over the years, I have always been satisfied with the MTH trains that I have purchased.

MELGAR

I have always liked the pulling power of the locomotives.I have had my first few railking locomotives pull 42 boxcars.And I have had railking ps2 mountain type steam locomotives pull some long trains as well.Here is a few videos of my locomotives pulling a long train.

RJT posted:

I still have my first two MTH Locomotives the first "J" and the first "Hudson" they introduced around 1990 or so and they still run. As far as product support my Hudson took a dive off the layout and bent the cab roof pretty bad several years after I bought and my service center (no longer in business) took down to MTH and they repaired/replaced (not sure which) for no charge. I would challenge you to find the damage today. MTH made a big impact in several areas and still does today. All of my 50+ MTH locomotives were still operating when packed up for the move two years ago and after replacing all of the batteries I bet the will operate again. The only disappoint I have with MTH is my P5 and the Zinc Rot issue. MTH may still make that right TBD.

I got a railking j that has american flyer type smoke unit.Its a great puller that runs very good.The only thing I am very happy with my MTH trains.

turbgine posted:

I resumed my interest in electric trains in 1987. I had had American Flyer as a young boy but in 1987 Lionel was the only show in town. Until Jerry Williams sold his tinplate business to a young friend and neighbor named Mike Wolf. His formation of MTH subsequently changed the hobby in the most profound way since Joshua Lionel Cowan at the turn of the last century. Initially working with Richard Kughn when he purchased Lionel the two came up with beautiful new steam engines from a manufacturer in South Korea that we all came to know and respect as Samhongsa. When the relationship deteriorated in the early nineties Mike was faced with a dilemma. How do I keep Samhongsa busy. The answer came in 1994 at York when Mike rolled out his first O gauge locomotive, the Dash 8. From 1994 to the early 2000's Mike produced three Railking and three Premier catalogs a year with a dizzying assortment of new tooling with engines and cars and accessories that heretofore we could only dream of. The Turbine series, the die cast Challengers, the big boys, and my favorite engine, the Erie Triplex. When Bill Benson made his brass steamers with Pittman motors from America, Mike Wolf followed suit. When Lionel came out with TMCC, Mike answered with DCS. One could argue that Lionel has had better sound in their steamers compared to MTH, but no one would argue who has the best smoke units. And, the current diesel sounds from MTH are second to none. As the demographics of our hobby changes, each company has had to make concessions eg. infrequent new tooling and reliance on fantasy schemes and well known entertainment brands. But, through it all Mike Wolf has remained at the helm with great help from his two supporting generals, Rich Foster and Andy Edelman. To my mind Mike Wolf is second only to Joshua Cowan regarding contributions to our beloved hobby.

You have covered all my friend.I have 2 railking locosound steam locomotives.I have a berkshire and a mohawk.That will smoke like the best of them.And will pull a long train.They do not have the best sound.But that is o.k. with me.I can buy a sound car.Mies challengers and big boys knocked the o gauge world for a loop.He made lionel had to get up and take notice.You now could have a good sized locomotive.And not go broke.

jeff55 posted:

It absolutely got me into O gauge. My father in law worked for Electro Motive after the war and took me to the La Grange plant for I believe their 75th anniversary in the mid 90's. While there they had a O Gauge layout setup and I was very impressed with the detail of these locomotives. I asked and they told MTH, never heard of them. Like the original post I too was a HO guy until the eyes started fading but didn't think much of Lionel due to the non scale size. I was instantly hooked on O gauge. Went to my local hobby shop and started buying MTH, until the fall of 1999 and wham, out of nowhere Lionel comes out with the Allegheny, then by Christmas the Big Boy. Wow! Scale stuff with command control from Lionel!  So, to sum it up if MTH was not around I don't believe Lionel would have introduced those models, which we all now enjoy.

 

 

 

You are right they would have kept pumping out.Hudsons FT units switch locomotives and the little 4-4-2.Mth came along with a 2-8-0,DASH 8 SD 40-2.Yea Mth came along with the railking bigboys.Trains lionel did not make.So lionel had to step it up.

graz posted:

I wasn't really in the hobby when MTH was establishing themselves, but I always assumed that Lionel, under Richard K, was primarily producing reissues for the collector market and charging a premium. MTH was pushing technology and detail that Lionel was slower to adopt in their products.

Not true, keep in mind it was Lionel that introduced command control to the O gauge 3 rail market, MTH came up with DCS after. Plus Lionel under Kuhn did start producing a lot more scale items as well, so Lionel wasn't in effect what Williams did ie producing new versions of old post war trains. No knock on MTH, not meant as that, just correcting a misperception. 

Any time you introduce competition to a market, as long as it is not predatory competition, it is a good thing. Having more people enter a market means more interest in it as the choice grows, and I think MTH did that. Kughn IMO gets credit for kickstarting a revival in three rail O and I think MTH helped make it gather steam. Others of course produced some neat products, the WIlliams repros and their brass offerings, Weaver, K Line, all helped as did Atlas entering the market later. I suspect if the 3 rail market had been Lionel only we just wouldn't have seen the breadth of the current market we do today. 

bigkid posted:

Plus Lionel under Kuhn did start producing a lot more scale items as well,

And Mike Wolf was the sub-contractor.  (Reading T-1, Southern 2-8-2, and others)

Rusty

I think one of the innovations that MTH did was lower the price of non scale engines and rolling stock.  My first purchase in over 30 years was a Rail King GG1 at the Big E show in Mass and after that a Rail King Genesis set.    But I think the big game changer, for a very short time, was when K-Line started to introduce incredibly low cost scale engines with command control just before their demise.  I believe that it was price and scale which changed everything.

Marty

GG1 4877 posted:

I will agree with others that state that Williams in and Weaver really started the change in the O gauge market.  Nothing against MTH products as I have many.  However the shift to scale trains on 3 rails really started sooner than MTH.

Granted Mr. Wolf was involved at some level with the introduction of budget priced brass steam locomotives at both Willams and Weaver. 

 

You probably should give Mike a little more credit on the Weaver brass scale offerings and the scale diesels.  Without Mike they would not have been produced.  Basically they were sold under the Weaver Brand.

With Samhongsa he really had the ball rolling for Williams, Weaver and subcontracting for Lionel scale items. That was the stuff most of the people I knew were buying so that is where I saw the big change. It all seemed like a natural evolution to take it all under his own name brand. I used to stop by the store as often as I could. Sometimes they'd bring out pilot models and test shots to show the locals at evening gatherings. The Railking stuff seems to have become their bread and butter, good for them.

GVDobler posted:

We have family garage sales now and then.  I have never had a person come up to me and ask "Do you have any MTH trains" but every single time someone comes over and asks "Do you have any Lionel trains."

Not sure that means anything, just saying..

I think that's because Lionel has existed for about 120 years and dominated O Gauge for most of that time.

Mike Wolf certainly revolutionized  the o gauge hobby.  Both with MTH and his previous work for Lionel.  Mike and Jerry Williams brought about the move from post war like reissues to modern 3 rail scale, while also expanding reproductions of tinplate and postwar trains. Keep in mind that mike was doing some of this work for Lionel before setting out on his own, so he also deserves credit for a lot of Lionel’s success while working for them.  In summary, they saw a pent up market for better o gauge trains and went after it.  

After every revolution, there is a conservative counter-revolution...

Williams was making 3-rail O gauge throughout the '80s, although it took until '87 or so for quality and robustness to approach the better Lionel stuff.  Williams stepped out around 1990, and Weaver took over the relationship with Samhongsa.  With help from small players like Right-of-Way and 3rd Rail, by 1992 there was a decent variety of 3-rail brass.  As far as I know, Mike Wolf was a retailer, and had little to do with making or importing these locos.

MTH began selling O gauge under their own label in '93.  Although many items were scale-proportioned, the engineering design was toy-like, and in some ways a step backwards from what Williams, Weaver, and 3rd Rail had been doing.  Gear ratios were straight out of the Fisher Price aisle, and early Premier steam didn't coast well at all.  Their diesels lacked the realistic fixed pilots or single-digit scale speeds of the Weaver Ultra Line or Red Caboose GP9.  So yes there was a contribution, but also a lost opportunity.  After several years, HO, G scale, and even S-gauge still had better-engineered, more realistic, more affordable mass-produced models.  Instead of continuing the "revolution of realism" begun by Weaver and even Atlas with its excellent SW switcher, MTH opted to design for producibility, not necessarily realism or ultimate performance.  These were more affordable but still high-priced, and operationally, still very much toy trains.

Circa 2011, MTH turned away from North American 'O', and shifted its product development focus to HO scale.  What's ironic is that their HO steam locos were "made right" from day one, embracing best accepted engineering practices.  Split chassis with a "bottom plate," replaceable wheels and axles, an optional non-rubber-tired wheelset in the box, etc.  They obviously had the know-how.  Yet in fifteen years, they never saw fit to retool and incorporate these improvements into their O scale product lineup.

This post may be perceived as critical.  I don't hate MTH, and I'm not partial to any one brand.  But as someone who lived through this era and spent some of my first paychecks on early MTH products, I'm trying to bring some objectivity to this thread.  My mind is open, but my wallet generally isn't, until someone builds a "better mousetrap."  I'm impressed by quality engineering and built-in performance, not failure-prone gimmicks or tack-on features. Big, quality motors. Low gear ratios--30:1 or bust!  Big flywheels or back-drivable gears with plenty of coasting.  Everything easily replaceable, customizable, and upgradeable.  Parts-is-parts: put an exploded diagram on the web, and sell me as many as I want!  Run 'em till the dies fold, none of that "limited production" collector B.S.

The opportunity is still there... The ultimate O gauge trains haven't been produced yet!  Google some parts diagrams for the American Models 4-6-2, or look under the hood of one of their S-gauge diesels.  Heck, look at a US Hobbies 2-rail loco from the 1960s.  First one that builds a semi-scale loco like this gets my money!  So which one of you is the next Mike Wolf!?

Ted S posted:

As far as I know, Mike Wolf was a retailer, and had little to do with making or importing these locos.

 

I think you are wrong about this point, but if you see them, ask Andy or Rich. They are pretty straight shooters and would probably tell you straight up what their involvement was.

Many local friends were regulars at the shop during that time and I was as well. I don't think any of the locals I knew thought anything other than that the guys at MTH were very involved with what happened with Samhongsa and Weaver, even before 1993.

Ted S posted:

After every revolution, there is a conservative counter-revolution...

Williams was making 3-rail O gauge throughout the '80s, although it took until '87 or so for quality and robustness to approach the better Lionel stuff.  Williams stepped out around 1990, and Weaver took over the relationship with Samhongsa.  With help from small players like Right-of-Way and 3rd Rail, by 1992 there was a decent variety of 3-rail brass.  As far as I know, Mike Wolf was a retailer, and had little to do with making or importing these locos.

MTH began selling O gauge under their own label in '93.  Although many items were scale-proportioned, the engineering design was toy-like, and in some ways a step backwards from what Williams, Weaver, and 3rd Rail had been doing.  Gear ratios were straight out of the Fisher Price aisle, and early Premier steam didn't coast well at all.  Their diesels lacked the realistic fixed pilots or single-digit scale speeds of the Weaver Ultra Line or Red Caboose GP9.  So yes there was a contribution, but also a lost opportunity.  After several years, HO, G scale, and even S-gauge still had better-engineered, more realistic, more affordable mass-produced models.  Instead of continuing the "revolution of realism" begun by Weaver and even Atlas with its excellent SW switcher, MTH opted to design for producibility, not necessarily realism or ultimate performance.  These were more affordable but still high-priced, and operationally, still very much toy trains.

Circa 2011, MTH turned away from North American 'O', and shifted its product development focus to HO scale.  What's ironic is that their HO steam locos were "made right" from day one, embracing best accepted engineering practices.  Split chassis with a "bottom plate," replaceable wheels and axles, an optional non-rubber-tired wheelset in the box, etc.  They obviously had the know-how.  Yet in fifteen years, they never saw fit to retool and incorporate these improvements into their O scale product lineup.

This post may be perceived as critical.  I don't hate MTH, and I'm not partial to any one brand.  But as someone who lived through this era and spent some of my first paychecks on early MTH products, I'm trying to bring some objectivity to this thread.  My mind is open, but my wallet generally isn't, until someone builds a "better mousetrap."  I'm impressed by quality engineering and built-in performance, not failure-prone gimmicks or tack-on features. Big, quality motors. Low gear ratios--30:1 or bust!  Big flywheels or back-drivable gears with plenty of coasting.  Everything easily replaceable, customizable, and upgradeable.  Parts-is-parts: put an exploded diagram on the web, and sell me as many as I want!  Run 'em till the dies fold, none of that "limited production" collector B.S.

The opportunity is still there... The ultimate O gauge trains haven't been produced yet!  Google some parts diagrams for the American Models 4-6-2, or look under the hood of one of their S-gauge diesels.  Heck, look at a US Hobbies 2-rail loco from the 1960s.  First one that builds a semi-scale loco like this gets my money!  So which one of you is the next Mike Wolf!?

Sorry but I do not see your point here.MTH did a lot for the o gauge market.And Mr Wolf started working putting trains together working for williams trains.I happen to own a few of the first locomotives.And they are still operating pretty good.I never had any problems with locomotives not coasting.And I am sorry but I had one of my MTH locomotives head light stopped working.I went on line found a diagram on their website.I did the work my self and got the headlight fixed.The railking has always been upgradeable.Their are a few here who have done so.Using upgrades from MTH and some have installed upgrades from the electric rail road.On I have had to replace a traction tire one in a while.But as far as any thing breaking gear wise.Nothing yet and it been over ten years.Now here I used to be in h.o. but my eyes decided they no longer liked ho trains.So I went up in gauge and I never looked back.And I get the thing with the pay check.But seeing I wanted bigger trains.And MTH meet me half way money wise.The people at MTH work hard to put out good trains.Because if they did not they would not have gotten to this point.To where to give a big company a run for its money.Yes they have made a few miss steps but every company has.

Simply put, MTH put products out there that were every bit as good, and sometimes better than Lionel, which at the time, was content to rest on their laurels and kept recycling offerings using their existing tooling.  MTH forced Lionel to step up their game and actually compete for our O gauge dollars.  Thanks to Mike Wolf, we now have the huge array of O gauge product out there that IMO we wouldn't have otherwise.  Personally, I would not have the collection that I have now if it weren't for Mike Wolf, as MTH offered quality O gauge trains in the road names that I was interested in.  Thanks, Mike!

No question that competition improves the game for everybody.  The MTH competition has meant that Lionel had to innovate, and we consumers ultimately had more product to choose from. 

Lionel's image of quality but at a high, premium price goes back to the postwar and 1950's period when the competition's niche then (Marx) was generally lower prices, but with less detail.   At the time- there was other competition -American Flyer (more realistic 2-rail) , and the increasing popularity of HO as a more space-friendly size, and as being more realistic scale vs. approximately scale as well. 

MTH came to the market with equal or better detail, and at a generally lower price, maybe through and due to building product in Asia.   If so, Asian sourcing was a decision forced on everybody by the MTH competition, and has meant lower prices, and lower prices even with added features. It meant that Lionel had to go to Korea and China for product instead of simply re-issuing the postwar products as they did through the MPC and Kughn eras. 

However, IF Lionel had not been using the same manufacturers, from a small base of manufacturers as MTH- then the situation that resulted in the lawsuit, the legal battle and bad blood in the industry would not have happened. 

So you could argue that the current situation of the industry being controlled to a degree by the Chinese and Korean manufacturers as another result of the MTH competition.  This is inconvenient, or a disaster depending on your point of view.  Tooling that lasts for years, under the control of the Chinese, means that it is very costly to be flexible in your sourcing, and to change sources when market conditions (like tariffs) indicate you should.

I would summarize it as, WE have more choices of products at higher quality and with more features.  A win for the consumer.

But the model train and hobby industry is enslaved to the Chinese government.  They control the sources- and (I understand) that Lionel (I don't know about MTH) cannot buy train parts from the Chinese manufacturers, because the laws or the practices in China are set up to save jobs in China, and prevent US from using the parts to assemble trains anywhere but China.  I could be wrong but that is what I understand.

Jim S posted:

Simply put, MTH put products out there that were every bit as good, and sometimes better than Lionel, which at the time, was content to rest on their laurels and kept recycling offerings using their existing tooling.  MTH forced Lionel to step up their game and actually compete for our O gauge dollars.  Thanks to Mike Wolf, we now have the huge array of O gauge product out there that IMO we wouldn't have otherwise.  Personally, I would not have the collection that I have now if it weren't for Mike Wolf, as MTH offered quality O gauge trains in the road names that I was interested in.  Thanks, Mike!

And there you have it.The whole truth and nothing but the truth.Yes lionel got in a runt with their trains.I remember talking to a fellow train guy.He said lionel had made so many hudsons almost as many as macdonalds big macks.I recall MTH was the first to offer models of giant  steam locomotives.Diecast that is  I know their some brass models.But thats another book.Lionel had to step it up.Thank you Mike.

Mike Wyatt posted:

No question that competition improves the game for everybody.  The MTH competition has meant that Lionel had to innovate, and we consumers ultimately had more product to choose from. 

Lionel's image of quality but at a high, premium price goes back to the postwar and 1950's period when the competition's niche then (Marx) was generally lower prices, but with less detail.   At the time- there was other competition -American Flyer (more realistic 2-rail) , and the increasing popularity of HO as a more space-friendly size, and as being more realistic scale vs. approximately scale as well. 

MTH came to the market with equal or better detail, and at a generally lower price, maybe through and due to building product in Asia.   If so, Asian sourcing was a decision forced on everybody by the MTH competition, and has meant lower prices, and lower prices even with added features. It meant that Lionel had to go to Korea and China for product instead of simply re-issuing the postwar products as they did through the MPC and Kughn eras. 

However, IF Lionel had not been using the same manufacturers, from a small base of manufacturers as MTH- then the situation that resulted in the lawsuit, the legal battle and bad blood in the industry would not have happened. 

So you could argue that the current situation of the industry being controlled to a degree by the Chinese and Korean manufacturers as another result of the MTH competition.  This is inconvenient, or a disaster depending on your point of view.  Tooling that lasts for years, under the control of the Chinese, means that it is very costly to be flexible in your sourcing, and to change sources when market conditions (like tariffs) indicate you should.

I would summarize it as, WE have more choices of products at higher quality and with more features.  A win for the consumer.

But the model train and hobby industry is enslaved to the Chinese government.  They control the sources- and (I understand) that Lionel (I don't know about MTH) cannot buy train parts from the Chinese manufacturers, because the laws or the practices in China are set up to save jobs in China, and prevent US from using the parts to assemble trains anywhere but China.  I could be wrong but that is what I understand.

Now you have some fair points.The bad blood I think started with Richard Khunn.And the law suit did not help matters.How ever MTH makes tinplate trains for lionel.I thought I would never see these companies would never work together again.But there it is.That being said you are also right about the competition.Mth forced lionel to step it up.Along with kline atlas and williams.We now have menards in the mix now.With their being so much product.What I like is if money is tight.You can go for the used train market.I have gotten some good deals.So as I stated before you have good points here.

If MTH only made two things, the BEST smoke units in the business and the iconic Z-4000, they would have influenced the rest of the players!

I THINK that part of the judgement in favor of MTH was that they got to build and market the Lionel tinplate line using Lionel's name and designs, without compensation, and for X number of years.  I would not call  a court-ordered agreement "working together".  So I am not hearing the song "Kumbaya" here, exactly.

My guess is MTH will eventually buy Lionel. 

Interesting speculation, and not entitely implausible!

"I THINK that part of the judgement in favor of MTH was that they got to build and market the Lionel tinplate line using Lionel's name and designs, without compensation, and for X number of years.  I would not call  a court-ordered agreement "working together".  So I am not hearing the song "Kumbaya" here, exactly."

There was no judgment in favor of MTH. There was no court order. It was a negotiated settlement agreed to by both Lionel and MTH in which no finding of legal fault by Lionel was made. The original verdict finding liability by Lionel was set aside on appeal prior to this settlement. 

Then Lionel files for bankruptcy as a legal defensive maneuver, likely to get the lawsuit into a more neutral setting (NYC rather than Detroit). 

The agreement to settle the suit was negotiated in bankruptcy court by an individual judge, and involved Lionel agreeing to a cash settlement to make the lawsuit go away. 

The agreement for MTH to use Lionel trade dress and the Lionel name on their tinplate products was, I'm fairly certain, negotiated separately and did involve payment of licensing fees to Lionel.  The Lionel CEO at that time stated it was "just good business" or something to that effect.  Lionel had decided to make very few, if any, tinplate trains by then, because the volumes were too low. 

Mike Wyatt posted:

I THINK that part of the judgement in favor of MTH was that they got to build and market the Lionel tinplate line using Lionel's name and designs, without compensation, and for X number of years.  I would not call  a court-ordered agreement "working together".  So I am not hearing the song "Kumbaya" here, exactly.

As far as I know it wasn't part of the agreement when the law suit was settled, the announcement came more than a few years after the lawsuit was settled. FYI, that agreement has ended, MTH won't be making the lionel tinplate line any more. 

They should make DCS backwards compatible with DCC- (so you can run DCC with DCS) then they would have changed the market.

"My guess is MTH will eventually buy Lionel. "

My guess is that no such event will ever occur.  Lionel is owned by a private equity firm that would want a price premium.  Not a recipe for a bargain. 

MTH is a sole proprietorship, I believe, where the sole proprietor and his closest associates are approaching retirement age. 

The real question to me is what is MTH's succession plan, if any?  This is a static or even shrinking industry.  It remains to be seen if a buyer is willing to pay the asking price one could expect a sole proprietor who has devoted his entire life to the business might ask.  It would surprise no one if there turns out to be  a significant disconnect between the owner's perception of value and the market's assessment of value.

MTH didn't force Lionel to go to offshore, manufacturing was already shifting offshore and with the movement of China into the WTO that opened up its doors, it was inevitable that production was going to go there from Korea, the cost there was just too cheap for the owners of the companies to ignore it. I don't see much sign of Lionel even competing with MTH on price, while both have cheaper and more expensive lines, in general Lionel still in my view is more expensive than MTH across the lines (and obviously, there are going to be exceptions). They both build in China because they are relatively low volume manufacturing where maximizing the profit per unit is standard, and because it is low volume you can't use other techniques to improve productivity, just not worth the cost, so they go with low cost manufacturing that is pretty low tech. 

To the best of my knowledge, with the exception of the legally contracted Lionel Classics and Lionel Corporation Tinplate lines, MTH never used Lionel badging on their Tinplate Traditions line. ALL products were clearly badged and stamped MTH Lines. Besides, the Lionel patents on those designs were long since expired at any rate.

Yes, MTH changed the market, because he is competition and competition is good. If MTH did not exist, someone else would have come along.

Mark

Tinplate Art posted:

To the best of my knowledge, with the exception of the legally contracted Lionel Classics and Lionel Corporation Tinplate lines, MTH never used Lionel badging on their Tinplate Traditions line. ALL products were clearly badged and stamped MTH Lines. Besides, the Lionel patents on those designs were long since expired at any rate.

Yep, the licensing for the Tinplate and classics lines was because they called them "Lionel", that name is copyrighted. If you think about it, Williams made copies of Lionel postwar equipment, it is how they made their name, and that is because they don't mention Lionel, and probably because given that Lionel engines are themselves based on real engines, kind of hard to claim originality. The patents Lionel had likely were on things like the smoke units, the e-unit and prob the open frame motor, none of which Williams used, it is also very, very difficult to patent how something looks, just ask Apple about that one. I suspect had Williams copied things that could be argued were lionel originals, like the operating accessories, the motorized units like the fire car or the tie jector and so forth, possibly the original burro crane and the way it operated, they could have run into trouble...

colorado hirailer posted:

For me, it was the Williams brass USRA series that changed the market.  The USRA Mikado was a model of a prototype l could relate to, and diverted me from old trains to "scaleplate" models.  MTH did make some new prototypes, but l thought made too many redos, as did Lionel.  New and different rings my chines.

That Mikado you refer to was was developed under Mike Wolf's leadership.  By that point at Williams, Mike's Train House and Nicholas Smith Trains were taking the total Brass production at Williams.  They also controlled quantities, quality and product determination.  Mike at the time was the largest distributor of Williams Trains. 

GG1 4877 posted:

I will agree with others that state that Williams in and Weaver really started the change in the O gauge market.  Nothing against MTH products as I have many.  However the shift to scale trains on 3 rails really started sooner than MTH.

Granted Mr. Wolf was involved at some level with the introduction of budget priced brass steam locomotives at both Willams and Weaver. 

 

You are correct that 'Mr. Wolf was involved at some level, etc.'.  Mike financed, arranged for production at Samhongsa and took 50% of the production run of the Weaver 'Gold Edition' line.  That included over 20 brass engines, GG-1s, EMD E-8 AA's and other diesels. He also designed the boxes, designed and printed the catalogs.

Remember those really nice 'Custom Train' passenger sets and the FMs.  Yep, Mike involved again.

The early Lionel scale production was also produced by MTH.  NYC Mohawk and Railchief Cars, Southern Mikado, Chessie T-1, Pennsy S2 and other items.  As you will recall the detailing was done in the style of older Lionel detailing, not very much because Lionel was not yet in the game of highly detailed stock.

bigkid posted:

MTH didn't force Lionel to go to offshore,

Anybody remember Lionel's attempt in the 1980's to move production to Mexico to save on labor costs?

Rusty

PAUL ROMANO posted:

My guess is MTH will eventually buy Lionel. 

Your guess is probably very wrong.  Not going to happen.

The opposite may happen due to some regular business cycles.

rthomps posted:

PAUL ROMANO posted:

My guess is MTH will eventually buy Lionel. 

Your guess is probably very wrong.  Not going to happen.

The opposite may happen due to some regular business cycles.

I figured Mr. Muffin would eventually buy MTH...

cjack posted:

rthomps posted:

PAUL ROMANO posted:

My guess is MTH will eventually buy Lionel. 

Your guess is probably very wrong.  Not going to happen.

The opposite may happen due to some regular business cycles.

I figured Mr. Muffin would eventually buy MTH...

LMAO!  One of the funniest/best comments ever on the Forum!  Well Done!   

Good morning, If it wasn't for a fine gentlemen in Homer City Pa I would have never got back into this hobby.

I walked into his shop to get my wife's Lional Santa Fe repaired and he showed me then the new MTH trains and I was sold.

Mr Wolf and his crew has brought this hobby to a level never thought of 20 years ago.

The release of DCS was the icing on the cake in my opinion.

Thank you Mr Sutter and Mr Wolf for your insight in this great hobby and giving myself and my family so many hours of enjoyment.

Thanks !!!!!!!

Jim S posted:

Simply put, MTH put products out there that were every bit as good, and sometimes better than Lionel, whichat the time, was content to rest on their laurels and kept recycling offerings using their existing tooling.  MTH forced Lionel to step up their game and actually compete for our O gauge dollars.  Thanks to Mike Wolf, we now have the huge array of O gauge product out there that IMO we wouldn't have otherwise.  Personally, I would not have the collection that I have now if it weren't for Mike Wolf, as MTH offered quality O gauge trains in the road names that I was interested in.  Thanks, Mike!

Overall I believe that the presence of MTH in part made Lionel what is is today.  Just try to imagine what Lionel would be today if MTH never existed.

The drive and innovation Mike brought to the hobby gave Joe H. and Jim W.  the incentive to go strong in their lane.  All three of these had a much slimmer trimmer management system with cleaner crisper decision making capacity than the big L.

Without MTH it would seem to me that most of the offerings we have today would be repaints.  

Plus the 0 scale market today is somewhat of an Albatross to many local hobby shops.

Let’s not forget all the nice engines that mike wolf helped make for Lionel before he started mth. Like the first Lionel shay and some other scale engines. TMCC was great but it was outdated when dcs came out. I still think Lionel steam has got them all beat in sound. 

Lionel's excellent sound systems owe MUCH to Neil Young, who in turn, arguably knows a LOT about all kinds of sounds!

In so far as fidelity to actual locos goes Atlas and Sunset are very hard to beat. It is a shame that Atlas has had so many problems producing O scale locos (I am a 2 railer). There are so many different stories it is hard to understand was is really going on with them. Sunset continues to produce a very highly detailed loco that is a slightly more expensive loco without the dreaded China drive and usually on time. Shame on the rest.

Dick

MTH RK N&W 611 J made  me switch from HO to O3r. The size quality and heft made me do it. I didn't until I went to the LHS 'just to look at it' and when I found my dealer offered it at less than $300 brand new....I then jumped. But recent costs have stopped my buying any new trains.

Like most guys who grew up with Lionel Trains as a kid, it was all over by 16 and a driver's license, but the Williams 1985 brass Hudson and later Mikes and Pacifics got me back again. I loved the scale steam look in three rail and still do. I jumped on Weaver and Sunset's 3rd Rail brass engines. But when Mike came out with sound, I went for his Premier line of locos.  To me, he set the standard for Three Rail Scale and the rest followed.

No doubt the entry of MTH, K-Line, Williams, Weaver, Atlas, Right of Way, and Menard's into the O gauge market had a positive effect on things for the consumer. Choices of product were broadened significantly and in many cases the abundance of different brands, caused prices to become more competitive. While I view the model train market of today as flat, there are still numerous products to fill any need whether it be for price or features.  The bottom line is that no O gauge company now dominates the market.

I had a retail hobby shop and settled upon Mikes Train Shop as the best distributor of my O gauge train purchases (Lionel, Weaver, Williams) because Rich Foster was very helpful to me being new to trains as a business and they generally had the best prices by a small margin. When Mike introduced his MTH line, I was amazed at the first several catalog offerings with the F3s in many multiple road names instead of just two or possibly three previously available from Lionel each year. They were the the first with the scale die-cast Challengers and other large steam locomotives. Mine sold out within a few weeks. The RK Challenger with it's 'GG1 like' pivoting twin motors was a true stroke of genius - and they would smoke you out of the room!

Man!I got a lot of feed back with this one.But keep em coming guys.

The #1107 Railking Challenger was the biggest thrill for me when it was announced. I ordered it immediately because I believed something like that would only be a one-time run. A 031 Mallet just couldn't please enough buyers, right? Glad to be wrong.

MTH definitely turned up the heat for Lionel. When MTH released those Dash 8s in 1992 or 1993 it was a game changer. Lionel's only offerings were those horribly out of scale Dash 8s. MTH then followed up with: C30-7, SD45, FP45, GP9, SD9, Dash 9, GP20, SD60 - Good stuff for diesel guys.

MTH made Steam more affordable.

I still have my early MTH catalogs. One even offered live steam in G gauge. It was never produced. They had rows of F units sets that in fact where HO models. It takes a lot of guts to catalog product that worn't even made yet. Three layouts back I was running 50's Lionel and for electrics I had three Williams "Little Joes". I liked the Williams because they were longer and had six wheel trucks. All had the Ott sound system in them. WOW that was a big jump. I repainted my Williams because the colors were and I think still, way off. Then I saw a MTH RailKing 0-6-0 at Lee's Train Service in Oakland. It was amazingly cheap and when I got it home and heard the sounds, a better WOW than the Ott system. I loved it like I loved my 2026 as a kit. No more looking for used Lionel or new MPC. My next buy was RailKing's "huge" in my eyes then, Santa Fe steam engine. No plastic tender for me ever again. There must have been thousands of us longing for something new from Lionel. But no, just reruns of things we grew up with for years. This young kid, Mike, truly change the three rail world. Don

scale rail posted:

This young kid, Mike, truly change the three rail world. Don

The O gauge hobby, and model trains in general, would be nothing like they are if not for Mike. And he has made it immensely better in my opinion.

MELGAR

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

GVDobler posted:

We have family garage sales now and then.  I have never had a person come up to me and ask "Do you have any MTH trains" but every single time someone comes over and asks "Do you have any Lionel trains."

Not sure that means anything, just saying..

I think that's because Lionel has existed for about 120 years and dominated O Gauge for most of that time.

And because the name Lionel Trains has become synonymous with American traditions like Baseball and apple pie. Not very many people outside of the hobby know about MTH Trains. If I were going to garage or yard sale I too would ask for Lionel Trains even if I was looking for MTH, K-Line or Weaver, etc because this way the seller would know exactly what I was looking for. 

This is a known situation where a brand name becomes the name of a particular product.  Kleenex is one of these.   

Band Aid is another.

Mike Wolf is the closest incarnation, so to speak, of Joshua Cowen in terms of his true, and abiding passion for ALL model and toy trains, with an especial reverence for prewar tinplate. His logo is a Lionel Blue Comet 400E, which speaks volumes! His success, like Mr. Cowen's, rests largely on his hand-picked team of executives and innovative engineers much like Bonnano and Caruso. His development of arguably THE most reliable smoke units and the remarkable UL-approved Z-4000 are just two examples of his iconic contributions to our hobby. Not to mention DCS and Proto 3 battery-less sound and control systems. He has made some mistakes along the way, but overall, has done much to promote this hobby in a most innovative manner, much like the legendary Mr. Cowen!

rthomps posted:

PAUL ROMANO posted:

My guess is MTH will eventually buy Lionel. 

Your guess is probably very wrong.  Not going to happen.

The opposite may happen due to some regular business cycles.

Stranger things have happened.............

I don't know if MTH changed the O gauge market but it definitely had a pretty good impact on it.  I like MTH and think their equipment is pretty good, however, when it comes to scale equipment, I think Lionel whips up on them.  MTH needs more detail on their locomotives and cars.  I'd really like to see more details and better quality on some of their parts.  I have to thank Mike Wolf for bringing more variety into the O gauge market and I think he has been good competition for Lionel, maybe MTH's entry into the O gauge market made Lionel take notice and they made changes to their product lines.

As for me, I'm happy with the Lionel and MTH items I do have and hopefully after my move to the Dallas area I'll be able to get back into my trains again and pick up the last few items I have listed on my bucket list.  Some will be MTH and some will be Lionel.

Great thread, thanks for starting it.

IMO, there is now a healthy competition between Lionel and MTH, which benefits the consumers, including us, in many ways.

Personal preferences determine which company's products the consumer thinks is better.

J.MOTTS - I don't disagree with anything you said, but your statement "and pick up the last few items I have listed on my bucket list" brought a smile to my face because We All Say That! (lol) Then - over time - we change/add to our list because of Lionel, MTH etc. etc. releasing newer versions of engines with more innovative features and details. That quote of yours sounds very familiar to me, but for some reason my list becomes 'never ending'! (hah hah)

Good Luck on your move to Big 'D' and hopefully it won't be too long before you're able to get back to your trains!