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I have been looking at the auction websites and the Buy-Sell forum and I am seeing a lot of modern used trains at a fairly low cost. I am not one to go out and buy just for a newer technology. For instance when a newer version of the N&W J #611 comes out with Proto 3 or Legacy, I am not wanting to toss aside my current J for the new version. Maybe some of us on this forum do just that; I am just not one of them.
     So if you are trying to sell trains to get that new item, that means your used train is bringing in less money. Does this effect the ability to buy more new stuff? Is the fact that used stuff is going cheap make you want to buy the used trains instead of the new trains? The pre-war/post war market has changed, now the modern train market is dropping as well. A friend of mine use to say, just expect .50 on the dollar when selling your trains. .50 on the dollar is no longer the reality. How does this new reality effect you?

Scott Smith

 

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I only pre-order and pay full price if it's a must have item for me. Otherwise it's stupid to preorder right now on most items.

For example I heald off on purchasing the legacy light mikado mainly because it wasn't released in an EJ&E version. I waited a year and paid hundreds less than if I would have purchased it right away.

I'm preordering the new Lionel EJ&E SD 38s because they are a must have for my layout. If there's not enough preorders they may never be built. With that said the pre order pricing for them is around 520 for each unit right now. I'm guessing next year at this time they will be going for 420.

I am a huge fan of the trains Lionel offered around 2002 to 2006 (just before Legacy).  I think many of the sounds are far superior to the Legacy versions of the same engines.  Therefore, I have been buying a lot of very nice engines from that period that I never felt I could afford.  But at prices of 35 to 50 percent of what they originally sold for, I do not seem to be able to pass them up. Even some of the first Legacy offerings are popping up with really good prices. 

 

I do purchase some new items but 60 to 75 percent of my purchases in the last few years have been 10 to 12 year old Lionel.

 

By the way, I hardly ever purchase a new car either.  My last auto purchase was a 6 year old car with only 6,000 miles (it still smelled new) for 30% of it's list price.

 

Always glad t find a deal!

 

Happy railroading,

Don

 

For me, we are not able to afford to buy new engines, especially for what they are asking for them.

I think the "newest" engine I have is from 2007, I just picked up a Lionel 1645 for 40 dollars at the first train swap of the year. Before that I "splurged" on a 565 for 75 after a trade in at my local shop. I'm finding a lot of the modern stuff being on par expense wise with some Postwar and MPC era stuff, which is fine by me. As long as it runs and pulls some trains, I don't care when it is from.

I don't know if I'll ever be in the new train market, but what I'm happy for is being able to buy some fairly inexpensive trains to run around the layout for myself and my three year old. I can actually let him play with them and have fun and let him have the train bug.

Originally Posted by Balshis:

I don't buy new locomotives.  The "newest" locomotive I own was made in 1990.

 

Same here. With that said, I'd still buy primarily used if I were buying modern Lionel items. There's really little reason to buy a super-expensive item if it'll be a fraction of the cost on the second-hand market.

I think I just have too many trains, but the new sound systems has made me re-think buying trains that are 10 years old.

 

I do not buy Kline trains with TMCC any more... the electronics are just too unstable.

 

PROTO1 and PROTO 2 5 volts are on the same issue line.

 

I think I'm at the point now where I am looking for a certain few remakes with the latest Legacy updates and I'm done buying....

 

Major negative effect. I have about all I want and my storage space is full, which means that I need to clear out some space in order to accommodate anything "new" (new or used) that I buy. So, with prices depressed and nothing moving even at depressed prices, space is not opening up. I currently have nothing on pre-order. I'm adjusting my expectations for what I can get out of what I have for sale, but I will be buying very, very little that is new for the foreseeable future. 

 

Fall is coming and demand should pick up some, but I think the lower prices on the secondary market will be with us for a while. I see a lot of very unrealistic asking prices on the Bay, but the items don't sell. What actually changes hands mostly goes pretty cheap, except for a few very desirable items like Lionel PS-4 flatcars. 

 

The combination of escalating prices for new trains and falling prices for used will not be good news for the manufacturers. Buyers will be price-shocked out of the new market and look to the very attractive prices for used trains.

So if you are trying to sell trains to get that new item, that means your used train is bringing in less money. Does this effect the ability to buy more new stuff? 

Scott Smith

My collection is so big that new to me means a new model that has not been offered- such as the SD38. Will pre order to make sure it's made. I wil not sell off my Blowout TMCC equipped PRR M1a for the Latest PRR legacy M1a model though or the TMCC PRR Y3 2-8-8-2 version compared to the current Weathered Legacy version.

Is the fact that used stuff is going cheap make you want to buy the used trains instead of the new trains?

Scott Smith

Yes! NOT only are the trains bargains but the "thrill of the Hunt" comes to mind! Most of the used items that I seek are the "hard to find" ones that I missed out on the original order. However some items when compared to new may and I stress MAY take a back seat to new. Case in point are MTH PRR Centipedes. Recently a shop was "blowing out" the new PS3 versions and I would take them over many PS2 version and any PS1 version.

 

The pre-war/post war market has changed, now the modern train market is dropping as well. A friend of mine use to say, just expect .50 on the dollar when selling your trains. .50 on the dollar is no longer the reality. How does this new reality effect you?

Scott Smith

Well I am now curious as to what the current price is if $0.50/$$ is not the avg.

With the baby boomers aging or dying off I have noticed a glut of pre/post war trains selling for pennies on the dollar. Unfortunately as this community of hobbyists age there doesn't seem to be any younger generation hobbyists to fill their shoes. It doesn't seem as if the interest is there or the money is there either. Next time you are at a show take the time to look around at who is at that show. Nothing but blue and gray hairs mainly with maybe a few grand kids thrown in. Same with local old car shows, same thing. A bunch of 60 and 70 year olds reliving their youth sitting around telling stories.

 

I have seen too many families where the hobbyist has died off leaving them the burden of ridding themselves of a collection of this or old car that, that the family has no interest in. Thus the overabundance of pre/post war trains available rather cheaply. I think it is great myself because I can not afford to buy Lionel's new train asking prices but I sure can fill a shopping bag of old used Lionel rather affordably at the shows and on ebay. I know most of what I buy is common older Lionel but when the economy was booming 15-20 years ago it was priced out of my affordability range.

 

Moral of this story enjoy getting deals on used while it sells cheaply. If Lionel sees that no one is willing to purchase at their inflated prices for new, sooner or later they will have to drop their prices or they will be stuck with a bunch of over priced inventory.

 

I will keep buying and playing with cheap used post war trains!!!!!! They may not have all the bells and whistles with fancy electronics but hey sooner or later that Chinese electronics will fail anyhow and you will be left with basically a post war train anyhow less the accessories.......

 

Happy Hunting!!!!

What is surprising is I have boughten 2 locos that are hard to find and MTH will not make another run of these. I picked up a Railking Mountain and Hudson from the same guy all together for 429.99 both had less than and hour of running time. Fair enough to say the used modern locos are sold cheaper because the miles on them and the hours. I have seen a weathered Lionel Dash 9 with TMCC a few years ago sell at TTOS Cal-Stewart meet in California for 125. 

 

I try to buy something that has been made that MTH sells at retail that I can get cheaper. Proto 2.0 is just as good a Proto 3.0. Sounds are nicer but I have 8 Proto 2.0 locos, they run just as good as Proto 3.0. Now I know that I will get 3 more Proto 3.0 locos and  my question is MTH uses a "wireless tether" but I do not consider it wireless, your still hooking it up not by a electric eye.

Last edited by SDIV Tim

 

quote:
 So if you are trying to sell trains to get that new item, that means your used train is bringing in less money.



 

My observations are a bit different.

IMHO, the prices on early MPC are on the rise. That is, after you factor out the "instant collectable" prices that some of them hit.

The prices on the 18005 (700E reissue) Hudson have bottomed out and are up a bit.

In general I think the pieces with electromechanical e-units, and perhaps some of the pieces with simple electronic e-units are holding or going up.

Maybe the prices on more recent "older" trains with electronics are

dropping.

 

I will agree that prices on most rolling stock are soft, but with the ever increasing price of new trains, they may start going up too.

Last edited by C W Burfle

When it comes to locos, I have always maintained that preordering is the way to go to ensure that you get what you want.  I passed on a couple of items and now I am kicking myself because it has been several years and I have yet to see them come up for sale.

Rolling stock, not so much.

And I am at the point now where my wish list is VERY short and I don't buy trains nearly as much as I used to, as I am seeing reruns of a lot of previously released items, and they are not being offered in the road names I want.

Engine if its something I really want and not available used, I'll buy new. But cars, accessories I buy used, many times a 1/3rd what a new car cost.

I do weight in adding or replacing command systems, lights, etc. upgrades to make the decision.

But many of the high priced items are just same old same old rehash. "O" is not "HO" when it comes to manufacturers taking a chance to produce something new and bold.

I guess like J Daddy alluded to, it comes down to the electronics. I purchase older modern locomotives myself due to the prices, but how much longer will 10 year or older locomotives still function? I have bought some Atlas locomotives that were a little beyond 10 years, but I wanted them for my collection.

 

Prices are down because of the market for new offerings, but it may also be due to the uncertainty of electronics and parts replacement. If I have to pay $200-$300 to upgrade a locomotive, I will definitely find the least expensive used ones to make it worthwhile. 

I purchased a few new diesels from Western/Central PA dealers over the winter.  They came down off of their sticker price and I was happy.    I wanted to go back and buy a few more heritage diesels.   However; I decided to attend the York show and picked up another new heritage diesel at a much cheaper price.  It was $75 cheaper at the show.   I've picked up 3 or 4 really good used deals on this forum as well.   They were half price of a new diesel and I've had no issues with the units.   I've definitely thought twice about buying new diesels since my subsequent purchases.

It doesn't affect me at all.  Suviving manufacturers almost never build a prototype

(much less roadname, but decals and paint fix that) I want, and above "rehash" comment applies.  Interesting comment above about vintage (antique) cars:  the prices on those have not dropped, but seem to always go up, and that includes what I consider "late model junk" (after 1940).  A friend of mine blew big bucks and traveled across the country for a 1957 Chevrolet.  I wonder who is paying the very big bucks, and they are big, for 1910 brass cars? Somebody is.  But are we talking about older trains such as, say, an in-the-box Blue Comet (I'd guess not cheap), or stuff they seemed to crank out in great numbers over the last decade?  Anything defined as

"antique" seems to always have a market of new and younger fanciers.

No affect so far. I got back in the hobby a few years ago and pre-ordered all the engines and rolling stock I have so far. In the beginning, I ruled out steam as too expensive, so everything is diesel. I like the command control engines and have little interest in anything older. Also I now have just about all I need and/or want, so new orders for engines and rolling stock are tapering off rapidly. The budget is now going to layout accessories and expansion.

 

As someone else stated in another recent post, in considering a used electronic engine I would figure on replacing the electronics. That would figure in to the price I would be willing to pay. I have one Railking scale engine that I am thinking about trading in at my LHS for a Premier version. That is the only thing I have even thought about selling or trading in. Everything else will be staying.

 

I am hoping my grandson will want my trains when I am gone. If not and the trains are worthless by then, would I really be out any more than I would have spent playing 18 holes of golf every week? I expect I would be out considerably more with the weekly rounds of golf than I will be with the trains. Of course surviving family would have a lot less to dispose of had I chosen golf instead.

When I placed my preorder for the GGD Powhatan Arrow seven car set, I sold off all but three of my MTH 18" N&W Passenger cars. One set each heavyweight, and streamlined. It all came down to "what do you really want". For me, I would prefer to have fewer, but correct cars for my consist.

 

It wasn't either a money or "newer is better". I also have a lot of 70 Ton MTH Premier N&W hoppers. They're as good as gone if affordable N&W proper coal hoppers become available. My focus has changed to prototypical, scale.

Last edited by Gilly@N&W

"...steam is too expensive...everything is diesel..."

Well, as one nice steamer costs about as much as, say, 2 nice diesels, just skip your next 2 diesel purchases and buy that big Pacific that you want...same outlay.

========

 

Anyway:

 

It (low used-equipment prices) does lower my New purchases - except when it doesn't. If the loco is truly new (like the Lionel USRA Heavy Mike) I will simply pre-order it. I got my Heavy Mike, and it's nice, and I will be able to find it later at a lower price, I'm sure, but when, I don't know, so I don't care. Also, I helped make sure that it was actually produced.

 

If the item is important enough to me I'll just get it. Things like the always-expensive Lionel scale Mogul I did not pre-order, though I wanted it. With TMCC, but even the Conventional ones were high. Actually, the Mogul price was not too high, if you passionately wanted it - but for me, it was a desirable but "second-string" piece.

(This also demonstrates one reason that we don't have more nice, small, scale steamers - they cost as much to develop as a Hudson, as much to market, and nearly as much to build, but the customers won't spend as much - it's "only a 2-6-0".)

 

Then, last week, on Mr Bay, I offered on and won a NYC (which I wanted - it's close to a NYC 2-6-0 look) - with TMCC - for well under $400 (s/h was a tad high, though). So, in that case, I waited. (The Mogul runs well, BTW.)

 

Nice second-hand and earlier-production items are inevitably going to bring new sales down - how could they not? My concern is - and it's happening, already - that new designs and models of new prototypes are getting more and more rare. There are things that will never be modeled that would have been viable 5 or 10 years ago, but, among other factors, the "nice; Mint; NIB" and the like stuff is just too low-priced, now. 

 

I'm seeing things on Mr Bay that I can't believe.

Last edited by D500

The lower price has a huge impact on me.  I have never bought a brand new engine from a dealer or LHS and kept it.  A very few pieces of rolling stock maybe, but that was it.  I could never justify keeping any of the big ticket MPC and LTI offerings back then.  I bought several engines back in the 80s and 90s, but only for resale as a weekend train show dealer and to make 100-200 dollars.  But now I can pick some of that stuff up for 15-25% of the original price.  So now the big Hudsons, Mohawks, B&A "618", Santa Fe 3158, N&W "612", S.P. GS-2, Rock Island "5100", the B6, the GG-1s, FMs and F3s are welcome to stay and run for a while.

 

But I also prefer the sound and operation of the mechanical e-unit.  With the electronic e-units I can't change directions on the engine very fast.  ( My RR operation can make breakneck changes of directions to get where the grandson can or cannot reach it).

I got a bag full of e-units and a bag full of drums at York one trip.  I've only had to repair one of my e-units, but it was much simpler than the electronic ones.

 

Looking at posts like:

- Losing DCS control with signal at 10
- Just Delivered New MTH LIRR 2-8-0 H-10 Not Working. Anyone else have issues?
- Remote doesn't recognize engine after powerup
- MTH engines do not run on MTH transformers but work with Lionel
- PS2 sounds are intermittent
- Can't Turn Off Clickity Clack
- Cab 2 Back-light not working
- GP7 Electro couplers buzzing very loud
- DCS / TMCC / LEGACY PROBLEM
- TMCC engine takes off at full speed
- Voltage drops through ZW, TIU and layout.
- MTH engines work with Lionel but not MTH Transformers
- How do you turn off a DCC decoder?
- Direction change problem
- How do I know if the TIU is worth saving?
- Cab2 "Base Not Found" sometimes.
makes me stand and salute those who can indure and conquer these issues.  I just could never justify that much money for a train.

 

I do marvel at the craftsmanship, look, and features of the newer stuff.  The newer stuff includes some very detailed, classy train models. 

 

I take good care of my trains, but in the end, my trains are just toys.

Originally Posted by D500:

"...steam is too expensive...everything is diesel..."

Well, as one nice steamer costs about as much as, say, 2 nice diesels, just skip your next 2 diesel purchases and buy that big Pacific that you want...same outlay.

========

 

I actually have lost a lot interest in steamers for the most part. I now like the diesels, it's what I see every day where I live. My grandson likes diesels over steam too, as that is what he sees too, I guess. He has HO and I got him a nice UP steamer for his birthday a few years ago. It stays in the box and he runs his diesels. He has an Army F-unit, that's his favorite. A lot of the stuff I get for my layout is what he likes and really for him when he comes over to visit. 

 

I have been thinking about maybe a small steamer like a camelback or something just to have one. I like shays too, like to watch them run, the gearing, linkage, etc. And then there is the MTH Premier UP Challenger in the greyhound paint scheme at my LHS that they keep dangling in front of me. If I ever get a big steamer (I am just about caught up on diesels) that will be it.

I go for a mix of both new and older. When I see a great bargain on something I like, I often get it. I am very selective when ordering new production items and buy mostly rolling stock rather than engines when I do order. I have a zillion steam and diesel locos already, anyway. And space in my train room is almost non-existent, so that plays a big role in my purchasing decisions, too.

Scott,

This is an excellent thread and when I see you at York I would like to follow up on this conversation. The problem I have is that buying "used" trains is SO dependent on the veracity and reputation of the seller. Sure, there are huge discounts on the "used" trains but if there is a problem, will the seller back them up?

 

I know Lionel prices are high now, but if I have a problem, Mike and company take good care of me. I bought a "used" Vision Challenger here on the Forum for big $ only to find it DOA. If it was not for Mike Reagan backing me up and repairing the loco I would have been DOA, too. 

 

Used is OK as long as I have a solid understand with the seller. Period.

Last edited by Scrapiron Scher

I function as a "roach motel" for trains. Trains check in but they don't check out. When I buy them they stay bought. That said, for the last few years, I have been mulling over the idea of getting into selling, but I don't need to in order to finance new trains. That's a good thing too, because what I want to get rid of is mostly MPC and has little value.

 

When it comes to new trains, I don't buy steam engines, and I don't care about new technology. All I want is TMCC engines that run well. I don't care about Legacy, or sound, or smoke, and DCS and conventional are not allowed on my railroad.

 

I actually have a pretty good fleet built up. My main focus for new purchases is really on cars. I'm getting more discerning as the fleet grows. That's why I just ordered 6 sets of the new Atlas Maxi IV sets.

 

Anyone want some MPC cheap?

Buying new old stock for bargain prices is a no brainer. Both MTH and Lionel big steam can be bought for slightly more than 50% of their original price. At our recent show at Dupage County I saw a N&W Lionel Class A sell for $500.00 in like new condition. An MTH 2000 Proto 2  UP FEF sold for $500.00. Looked like new. So, with new catalog prices going out of sight there is a great place in the market for vintage, like new MTH & Lionel pieces. Another vendor had a six pack of MTH premier rebuilt reefers for $120.00. The demographics of the hobby favor a lot of new and like-new product in the market place. These pieces will be the strongest competition to the new stuff , not the other companies making similarly expensive new trains.

This post is interesting.  People who say that they mostly buy used out number those who indicate that they mostly buy new by about 3 to 1.

 

My friends that attend York, however, tell me that the vast majority of the sales are being made in the dealer halls.  People are walking out with tons of new trains.  There is not nearly as much action in the member halls.  (I assume that members would be selling mostly pre-owned trains.)  I see the same thing happening at west coast trains shows.  Dealers are selling new trains but used trains don't sell as well.

 

I also see many posts on this forum telling what people are ordering from the most recent catalog.

 

I think that there may be a disconnect between what people they say they do and what they actually do.   Then again, the people who are on this forum may be not be representative of  the train purchasing public.  Forum members are heavily into the hobby and many have the capability to fix a used train.  Therefore, they are more likely to buy used than most people.

 

NH Joe

This is an interesting subject.

 

I never have bought anything with the intentions of selling. However, with that said I have been bit hard by the tinplate bug. I still like my o-gauge trains, but have sold off a few pieces to acquire some of the tinplate. I still like running both.

 

I do find however that yes there are some items that might be going for less, but there are also other items that people believe are worth a mint, and on top of that with the shipping charges as high as they are, I am very careful now as to what I buy, so hopefully I do not have to sell.

Good points New Haven Joe.

 

If you are a conventional and traditional trains operator, there's no shortage of used stuff on the market. If you want to move up a little bit, then there's LionChief and LionChief Plus, which are basically the same sort of engine with the added sound and control.

 

In my thinking, the high-end scale operators are the ones hit most by this question. Right now, there's another thread "Engines we will (probably) never see in O scale" which in my reading has turned into another "wish list thread." They want it (in reality), but are they going to be willing to actually commit to BTO and pay the prices required to have the stuff made?

 

This isn't a criticism, but some operators do want the latest electronic features with ever increasing scale accuracy. But there is a price to be paid for this. These are small production runs to begin with, and nearly all now is being built to order by all manufacturers.

 

It's early in Lionel's BTO policy, so time will tell how willing dealers will be to continue to order extra units beyond actual customer orders. Right now the big dealers are doing this, but they'll learn very quickly how much of a risk this will be, and will adjust their quantities ordered accordingly. Which will not benefit the folks decide to wait. 

 

I don't know how much Lionel (and the others) can drop prices on high end products that are from either brand new or recent new tooling. Folks may say they aren't going to pay those prices, but if you want the increased scale accuracy and the latest features, what other option is there? Then again, more and more are "saying" that their buying limit has been reached.

 

Though it isn't talked about much here, I think the rises in prices for the traditional products will help folks to consider buying used, aside from LC and LC+. And unlike the more recent scale products, there is plenty of used traditional product out there at a fraction of even discounted prices for recent new products.

 

Lionel pretty much owns the majority of the starter set market. This is one area that needs to have prices held to attractive levels to entice newcomers, along with some of the basic add-on's. Many have already mentioned the shrinking customer base. The bonafide train guy might not like the higher prices, but we're already in the choir.

 

Higher prices on the basic stuff could have the effect of sending would-be customers looking for another hobby, especially those unfamiliar and not acclimated with the general overall costs of the hobby.

Last edited by brianel_k-lineguy

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