How much space does 2R really need? (possible convert)

I faced the same issue's you are facing with the middle rail and such.  My first steps were just what you are doing, popping in here and looking, reading ect.   I finally made the plunge and haven't looked back.  I am hand laying all my switches and track...yep ALL. ....madness right?....LOL..  My basement is definetly average, My layout is 12X25 and I am getting about a 62" radius on my curves with leaving some space against the wall for something like....paint.  You have to ask yourself what do you want to run vs. what can you run?  I.E. large steam or small steam or modern diesels.?  You ask about modern diesels, the Atlas Dash 8-40CW will handle a 36" radius....so if ya got six feet plus a little your golden. These are just some pics of what I have going on currently....

 

 

Well, "Will Backer" for who?

 

My first 2 rail Atlas O layout in the in 99-01 era was a room 6'9" x 9'10",

so like 39" radius, 4 wheel diesels and Rivarossi steam at that point!

 

ncng

It's totally subjective Will, since people each have their own perceptions of what "looks" right to them. Some will never feel good about the way larger equipment looks being cranked around the most minimum radius possible just because it fits. Other demand truly scale appearance and realism and seek the most massive curves for their railroad. To me it is not about trying to jamb as much track as possible in a space...instead I was it to be a railroad that has that sort of elusive look I find appealing.  You can build a shelf layout in a small area just as you've done in 3 rail. I have a space that 10' 10" wide and I use curve radius of 50" on the main line and 46" on lesser tracks. This limits me to smaller engines but I never was a big engine guy for many reasons. Again this is entirely up to your tastes and available space and budget. But as others have pointed out a 36" radius has been used in certain situations. More time studying will be beneficial. A couple pics will show you what a 50"/46" radius curve looks like...see first photo. Second picture shows same train from the rear for perspective. Do your homework Will. There is no rush. But there is nothing that beat 2 rail either. Enjoy.

 

Bob

 

Will,

 

Take a look at Gary Schrader's layout:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...I7nY&feature=related

 

It is in a space approx. 40x20 and is proof you don't have to have an area the size of a football stadium to have a great layout.

 

Simon

Will, give us the dimensions you have to work with? It sounds like you want 6 axel multi unit...multi car trains. Lots of main line running. You won't be satisfied with a small switching layout.

 

A quick and easy way to get a feel for what you can do with O scale is to plan with construction ribbon. There is orange construction ribbon available at Lowes that is the width of O scale 2R track...its cheap too. Buy a roll and lay it out in the basement to get a feel for what you can do with the space. Run the layout in your mind...visualize what you can do with scenery etc in the space you have. For me this has been better than paper.....here are some shots from a recent planning session I had.....

 

 

 

The other issue is cost. O scale is very expensive compared to HO....$80 for a switch, $400 locos, $10 for a section of flex. With that said there is nothing like the presence of O scale. I was an HO modeler for many years and could never go back.

Don

2-rail O can be done in a modest space, and that's even true for a small shelf layout.  Here's a shelf layout that I designed for 2-rail O, that is done in the same space as 3-rail.  Yes, the 3-rail version could squeeze in a track or two more, but it would not increase the operational variety much.

 

http://2railoscale.blogspot.co...al-shelf-layout.html

 

Many of the O scale modelers in this area have modest Cape style houses (26'x 26') yet run some of the biggest O scale articulated locos, long trains and have many tracks for storage.  Most of these layouts were designed by, or influenced by, John Armstrong.  Armstrong was a O scaler and had a small basement as well.

 

My own layout is in a 26' x 36' basement, has two and three track main lines, a giant helix, and is designed to run large articulateds through sincere scenery. 

 

When you model in 2rail O there is less R-T-R and, therefore, there is less inclination to put down a lot of track to store a huge collection of locos and rolling stock.  It tends to be self-limiting.

 

TT

Will,

I would take one step back and look at what you want to achieve.

 

I gave up HO and all the dreams of modeling a Northern Pacific RR from Livingston to Helena then to Butte Montana. Even took a few trips out there, loved it...

But I released even in HO I could not do the Northern Pacific RR justice.

I acquired many brass engines, lots of scale pass sets and rolling stock, and planned my layout to a tee...

 

I took one step back and spent 3 years refinishing my basement. Then after seeing the latest sounds systems from Lionel I switched to O...

Along the same thread..  I've often wondered what the min radius would be for the steamers I like to run:

 

ATSF 4-8-4

ATSF 2-10-4

ATSF 2-8-8-2

ATSF 2-10-2

 

etc

 

I know there is a big difference between what is the min that you can force the engine around and what would be "comfortable".   So any insight into both?  :-)

Good advice!

 

Figure out what you want to do/achieve/goals and balance against real available space.  There are a number of variables to consider.  Cost can be quite a variable as well.  Much can be done quite economically and as can much can also be done by spending a lot fo money.  You might want to start out frugally to test out your plans, themes, space, etc before exercising the converse. 

 

40x20 and is proof you don't have to have an area the size of a football stadium

 

That might as well be a football stadium for a lot of folks,

 

 

 

 

 

 

Doesn't that all depend on what you want to do as a railroad - 125 car freight trains will take a heck of a lot of space.  Switching an 8 car consist well not so much.

Exactly.  Balance and boundary conditions are imposed by one's available space real or imaginary. 

 

And, how many individuals actually have the capability to run 125 car freight trains anyway?  I think that I may have a sum total of that many cars +/- a few percent, an that would literatly wrap around my layout room ~4 times.

Thank you everyone for all of the suggestions.  I do not have any specific dimensions, because I dont have a house yet! I am still in college, but I like to plan ahead.  I really do not like wasting money (as Im sure no one does) so I am trying to plan what I want to do in the future in an effort to keep from buying equipment that I will not want to use later on, like HO or 3 rail trains. I guess that I was just trying to see what possibilities there are to model modern O scale railroading in a space similar to a common home basement. 

Will, That being the case, your best bet (my opinion, of course) is to look at all the 2 rail layouts you can. You will soon get a very good concept of what you can do in a given area. That is the exact reason I suggested viewing Gary's layout, as it combines many of the things you mention in your question, and contrary to what our friend Martin might think, 20' x 40' ain't the Grand Canyon!

 

Simon

In that case my advice to you would be not to worry about that right now. In fact I wouldn't spend any money on model trains because your 32yr old self will probably be into something totally different than your present 22yr old self. Save your money and buy a house.

My college years in the late 80's were my most active railfan years. I would take off with a couple of friends and we would be gone for an entire weekend. Thats impossible now for my late 40's self.  I have a lot of slides to remember those years though.

Learn some track planning software and have fun planning layouts. Join a club and enjoy the hobby from that end.

Loading up on model trains now would be the last thing I would do......look at this guy...he is having a blast....

 

Simon thank you...Gary's layout is amazing and it looks very close to what I would like to create one day.  I would love to see more of his layout and a track plan.  Any idea where I could see these? 

Good advice!  See what can and can't be done per unit space vs. what you want to do...or think you want to do.  That may change over time,

 

It might as well be the Grand Canyon, Copper Canyon, and Cygnus x-1 all rolled into one if you can't get that kind of space....then again, after I retire I may engineer a pocket unverse for containg my layout.

 

And, I'n not sure what a "common home basement" defines - that's higly variable across the country.  If you get lucky, you get an unfinished one and can pretty much do as you like.  You may end up employed somewhere in the country where basements are quite rare.

I am not worried about specifics MWB I am simply trying to see what can be accomplished in common home situations.  I suppose that "common home basement" may be highly variable as you say but that is not what I was worried about.  I just wanted to know how people have modeled modern O scale in a space that could be feasible for a home layout.

Well, try to get out and see what others have done, best of luck with finishing college and being gainfully employed!

 

 

 

 

 

Will,

Great topic, I am struggling with the same issue, love the size and detail of O but, the space requirements are daunting and I am debating the same thing. I am planning my layout now and really only have about a 15' x 15' space to work with and I know what I want to run but, can I fit it and it still look good.  Ideally 2 track mainline, a subway, and a trolley line, and a yard.

Can I add a dimension to your topic? I have "heard" that more modern locos, let's say post 1980 diesel and electrics, are very limited in selection for 2 rail O, is that true?

Chris

[It is in a space approx. 40x20 and is proof you don't have to have an area the size of a football stadium to have a great layout.]

 

Seriously?!

How many of us in reality have that much space?

Send Gary an email. He sells a complete DVD set of his railroad.

 

Bob

Here you go.     gs-sj@earthlink.net

In addition to the Email address Bob (Flanger) gave you, Gary's layout is one of the tours at the "O Scale West" annual show, if you ever get out to California this time of year (it is going on as I post this).

 

http://www.oscalewest.com/

 

Like Bob, I highly reccomend the 2 DVD's!

 

Simon

Will - In the Model Railroader special issue, "Modeling Railroads of the 1950's", there is a layout designed by John Armstrong that is designed for a 23 x 32 around the wall, two level layout that is the BEST O scale layout I've seen for a modest space.  The two levels make for all the railroad one could ever want.  It is called the Blue Ridge Midland RR and is designed to be an Appalachian coal road in O scale. It would be a complicated railroad to build but is designed to accommodate passenger service and large C&O articulated s in O scale.  It has a number of grades, yards for switching and engine service and mines to be serviced.  The issue was published in 2005.

 

For anyone capable of building it, it's an O scalers dream!  If my basement was a bit different, I would have modified it and built it.

 

I am going to use my B&O Q4 Mike from Sunset as a guide to my answer to you.

 

It's a two rail engine. I have used it with 48" radius Atlas O track and would not want to force the issue any tighter. It wants 54 inch or greater radius.

 

Now in my situation Curve Radius from HO 36 to 40 worked out to about similar to 054 to 072 curve diameter and it will need a three rail version of the Sunset engine to run or some other engines.

 

With that in mind you have some big steam there I would expect 54 to 60 inch radius as a minimum. That works out to a 360 degree circle of track something like 12 feet across.

 

I only have 11 feet to turn around in so 2R will not work well for me.

 

As far as three rail 072 works out to 5 feet across allowing me to turn around twice in that same wall.

 

Then you have human considerations. A person is wide and usually wider with age.

 

My solution to the issue is to have a staging somewhere out of the way. That would be "The rest of the world" via say... Relay Maryland or what have you. Trains come on and depart that way to and from the railroad.

 

I do keep some 2R, but am in 3R scale as a way to defeat some of the space limitations.

For me it took 23'x25'.

 

My mainline minimums are 56" and 60". In storage the tracks get down to 36".

 

I was in 3 rail for 20 years or so, thought I'd be there forever, and then saw some 2 rail layouts in operation locally. It took about 5 minutes for me to change my mind and switch to 2 rail. I then had to sell off a bunch of 3 rail stuff. That is typically the trap.

 

Below is a link to videos of my layout in progress.

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/goingoscale?feature=mhee

 

HI  Willbacker45.  If you deside on  2 rail  let me know i would  help you  out  with some 2 rail  flex track  cheap, some hand made switches and  freight cars..  so  let me know.  Oscalecarl@hotmail.com

Well, sure you can fit more in with smaller scales and they are slightly cheaper when fully equipped. I'm amazed at what I can fit in with O gauge 2r. If you're into more scenery maybe HO would be better. If you enjoy larger trains as the focal point, O gauge 2r is the best. I still have my HO and I run G scale as well.

My favorite point has been in a recent OST issue about what 3RS really is. I would just say that for a newer person to just go to 2 rail for the effort.

 

Oops. I would add pics but I don't have flash player.

The decision is made easier when you realize that there is nothing that prevents 3-rail equipment from running on the same radius without the center rail.  For larger locomotives that means compromises.  Swinging pilots, missing tail beams,undersized cylinder blocks, blind center drivers and on and on will work in 2- rail the same as they do in 3-rail.

 

And now with new battery technology one can look forward to buying three rail trains and running them on two rail track without any modifications other than the battery and control circuitry.

 

But if you would like to run 4-10-2s with tail beams and proper cylinders, you will need 74"radius.  Nothing less will do - I had to expand a wall and re-build the railroad to run mine.

Wow... we've seen this before, haven't we?  A 3 rail modeler evolves away from traditional sized to Hi Rail... then it's not quite right with the "lobster claws" and "pizza cutter flanges" (not my terms), so it's off to 3RS next... then... that dadgum center rail rears its ugly head!!  Eventually said modeler starts looking at 2 rail options.  Yup, this is a familar song.

 

Willbacker:  What you're experiencing is not atypical.  As you have read, others have trodden the same path to two rail bliss.  You have two advantages: You're young and your 3 rail collection is not very extensive.  So, you have a lot of time to really learn what you like and want in your future layout, and you don't have a fortune tied up in your current equipment that so often keeps a modeler stuck in a medium he's not truly happy with. 

 

If you REALLY REALLY want to do something 2 rail NOW... consider a shelf switching layout with an urban theme.  Even once you have that "Grand Canyon" sized basement... your yard will still need a switcher, right?  So, no wasted money on an engine that you can't use "later".  This approach will let you see the differences first hand and begin enjoying the rewards of the true "scale" look.

 

FWIW: I went the same route, sans the 3RS.  Ended up struggling with the center rail for scale trains.  Went with S scale.  Though I am one of the laziest modeler's you'll ever meet, I find that S scale is perfect for my "givens n' d'ruthers".  Below is a quick pic of one of my S scale efforts.

 

Have fun!

 

 

Will

 

It is good to know that you are thinking now about what you want in the long run.  What you like may change over time but you can learn a lot along the way. 

 

The strongest case for three rail scale can probably be made for anyone interested in medium and large steam.  The curve requirements for 2 rail steam are to big for many.  Going with a 3 rail approach to scale model railroading allows layout designs to incorporate 36 in radius curves wherever it may be of advantage and still know that all locomotives will be able to operate through them.

 

If you are not interested in operating steam then you can have more design flexibility.  Six axle diesels may not be a design limitation, it might be your rolling stock.  Do you want to operate auto racks or 89 foot flat cars with body mounted couplers and couple them to shorter cars?   That might be your defining operating restriction.  There is no law that says 2 rail cars have to have body mounted couplers.  Many HO cars have been built with truck mounted couplers.  The trade offs are your to assess.  If you can live without either 89 footers cars or body mounted couplers you might be able to run 2 rail equipment on 36 to 40 inch radius curves and #5 switches. 

 

Careful and creative planning is essential to the design of a satisfying layout in any scale.  John Armstrong's Track Planning for Realistic Operation is an excellent reference and has inspired many, many designs.  I have had the good fortune to participate in the construction of a layout that originated with a preliminary design by John Armstrong.  The footprint of the layout is almost exactly what Mr. Armstrong conceived. He had a wonderful sense for the utilization of space and the flow of a layout through a room.  The track plan elements are quite different from the preliminary design and come from the layout owners evolving desire to model specific locations as well as operational considerations.  Some of the operational considerations were defined by locomotives and rolling stock.  The layout features quite a fleet of scale passenger cars.  A 10 car passenger set with A-B-A PAs or E Units became the defining limit on train length and therefore siding length.  A 300 inch long siding will allow for 10 car passenger trains or 20 car freight trains (with an average 40 foot car length)  to fit in a siding.  That freight train length then set the length for the arrival/departure yard.   The classification yard is used to make and break trains coming from and going out to industries and interchange points on the main lines and branches.  The layout and its locomotive and car fleet have been built to provide a compressed but still realistic operational scheme for manifest freight railroading from the 40s or 50s and it can keep a good sized crew hopping at operating sessions.

 

Since you are interested in modern intermodal and coal operations I would suggest considering what parts of those operations you would like to depict.  Do you want to have a dockside intermodal facility at a deep water port and a flood loader with unit trains that turn on a balloon track at a western strip mine?  If so, put a great deal of thought into how to model those convincingly on a compressed scale.  Or, think about modeling an inland truck to rail ramp and a carload coal mine.  And where will those containers and coal cars go?  A city terminal?  A power plant?  An export facility?  Or, do you only want to model the main line haul with either the origin or destination or both off line?  Perhaps a staging yard on or off scene could model a unit train crew change location where cars might be inspected and locomotives serviced but little or no switching takes place.  How long a train do you need to get a sense of length in the space you have?  Will 300 inches give a sense of a long freight?  Will 200 or 120 inches do it in a smaller space?  If you go longer than 300 inches and/or have mountain grades what will that mean for your motive power requirements and what will that mean for your control system and power supplies?  Can your locomotives and control system model DPUs? How will all those considerations change if comparing O to HO?

 

Fortunately thinking is still free and doodling or playing around with electronic designs only cost as much as a pencil and paper or software.  Get out and see as many real operations and layouts as you can.  If you have a few things you are sure that you want on a future layout go ahead an get them if the opportunity presents itself.  Build structures, especially if they fit in as the origin or destination for cars you like.   I have heard Steve Brenneisen say that the layouts that provide lasting enjoyment are the one that have a purpose and are "model transportation systems."  If you can build a model transportation system in O scale you will likely be happy with it.

 

Ted

 

P.S.  AAAs flood loader and rotary car dumper rock!  Take a look at them and consider fitting one or both into a layout.  They look great and will keep a crew busy and a dispatcher or yardmaster hounding them to get the train turned.  Unit train ops are all about utilization. 

As one running in a similar direction, the quick answer is that you can do a 2-rail layout in the same space as a 3RS layout. A large number of the 3RS crowd is already 2/3 of the way there since 36" radius (O-72) is the starting point in many cases. 36" radius can accommodate 4-axle diesels and cars up to about 60' with Kadees. For 3-axle, you're looking at 42" radius (O-84) but things work better at 48" radius (O-96.) My MTH scale-wheeled 6-axle diesels all make it through 36" radius with cars coupled, but I think they're the exception rather than the rule. Steam gets a bit more complicated because there are a lot of variables with respect to pilot trucks, driver spacing/size, and other factors. The manufacturers usually indicate the minimum radius for their products, so you'd be restricted to locomotives that fit your curves.

 

That said, look at your space and see what fits. I started looking at the "less is more" philosophy with layout design -- less track, more complex running and less emphasis on "loop running." I've been embracing Free-Mo styled modular/sectional designing for elongated point-to-point operation. I've also been looking at outdoor operation, but the problem here is that the track gets beaten up by the elements.

 

Hope this helps a bit.

 

With that in mind you have some big steam there I would expect 54 to 60 inch radius as a minimum. That works out to a 360 degree circle of track something like 12 feet across.

 

 

That makes sense and is the info I needed.    I could do a huge single loop around the walls and that's about it!   So ya..    SO ya, I'm in 3R(s) by necessity.

Will,  I went through the same process that you are experiencing now.  One thing you may want to consider is trying 2 rail through a club before you make the switch.  IIRC, there is a pretty good 2 rail club in Youngstown, Oh. and I would think they would be happy to share thier experience.  Currently, I'm dong the something similar with a local HO club. It has been a very good experience for me and I have learned alot of new things.   IMO, this is where getting your feet wet at a club really comes in handy.

 

Also, as someone that has moved 5 times in the last 6 years, you really want to consider the size requirements for 2 rail O if you, like me, enjoy running the big stuff. I would say that if you are going to run modern, 6 axle diesels and 89' flats (I guessing at what is probably your longest equipment) then think about what radius curves and what # crossovers they will need. From there, you can start to think about track spacing, siding length and yard ladders.  I would say you are looking at about 60 - 65" radius and possibly a #8 crossover if you body mount the couplers.   When my wife and I lived in Louisville, we had to look at about 80 - 1oo homes before finding one that had a good usable space and was what we could afford. 

I bought some 2 rail track years ago with the idea that something would come of it.  Small Layout Scrapbook offered ideas and I now have (although my scenic skills leave something to be desired) a 8ft x 2ft switching layout.  Older Atlas turnouts  work just fine given the area, 40ft Weaver boxcars, 38ft PS2 hoppers and an Atlas SW switcher plus old plymouth swicher are everything I own in 2 rail.  It serves as a great test bed for learning, the trackplan actually works although I wish I had twice the length.  If I every get more space there are very creative plans available for 2 rail depending on what floats your boat. 

My basement layout is 3 rail but due to space constraints I am limited to 042 reverse loops.  Sort of rules out 2 rail for this house.

Has any three railer ever gone into 2 rail and simply two railed their 3r engines?

 

Three rail engines by and large have flexible and compressed features that will work on very small curves.

 

If you will allow yourself to work with small curves in 0 scale. Why not just take it a step further and use the Rail King baby articulateds.

 

IMO, nothing looks sillyer than big scale engines sweeping around curves with their boiler extended way over the scenery.  You can avoid that by using the Rail King Bigboys, Challengers and Cab Forwards which all have double swivel engine sets like a GG-1. 

 

That feature coupled with a compressed overall body allow very small curves and no rediculous overhang.  Hey, with small curves and circle running on an island layout we are not talking scale or prototype anything here except two rail track. So, IMO, have at it and enjoy the theme of big RRing on a Disney scale.  Most of us do that in one way or another anyway when you look critically at any of our efforts.

 

Bottom line here is having fun in what ever way fun strikes you.

 

For me that meant switching over to point to point running with peddler freights with scale 2 rail equipment. 

 

When I first started my RR with a class 1-A 0 scale RR, the passsenger trains with 80' cars looked like an adult in a baby pool. It was either downsize the scale or down size the equipment.  tt

I model O 2-R in a small space. Below is my trackplan and some pictures--the overall length and width of the layout is 132"x77", and part of the layout is removable so I don't block an aisle to my upper flat neighbor's storage closet.

 

My rational is that I won't be in this flat forever--hopefully next year we'll be buying a home, so I'm going to build this small layout and have fun NOW. I'll also be improving my modeling skills in preparation for building a larger layout.

 

By the way, my minimum mainline radius is 36", and I'll be using 27" minimum on the industrial spurs.  The Atlas RSD15 will run on these curves as long as I use easements where the curve diverges from the straight track on the layout.

 

Is this an ideal layout? No, but it is so much better than not having a layout at all....

 

Jeff C

 

 

I would also mention this--a lot of your 3RS equipment can be converted to 2-R.

 

I also think radio control is quickly becoming a viable option for people like us who need to be able to run equipment on small radius curves. All of this great looking scale 3-R equipment could be converted to radio control and allow modelers to get rid of that center rail!

 

I plan to try this myself with a 3rd Rail SP Mogul--would anyone know if the flange depth is shallow enough to where the 3rd Rail locos will run on Atlas 2-R track? It would be nice if I could convert the locomotive without turning down the flanges...

 

Jeff C