How safe is model train smoke?

I think if you’re worried about it don’t turn it on. It’s a pretty simple solution for anyone concerned.

Im sure Dr. Neil has some insight. Me. I run smoke.

I'm pretty sure I'll die of something else before vaporized mineral oil kills me, I'm running my smoke!

@MartyE posted:

I think if you’re worried about it don’t turn it on. It’s a pretty simple solution for anyone concerned.

Im sure Dr. Neil has some insight. Me. I run smoke.

Thanks for your input, Marty. If I'm worried at all, it's only a tiny bit. As I mentioned before, I love the smoke feature. I plan to continue to enjoy it in moderation.

Still, I wonder about its safety, and am curious what others think. Arnold

Arnold, I run an engine one time with smoke - when it’s brand new and I’m making sure that function works. After I’ve confirmed it works, it is turned off and stays off.

Now, my youngest son, who still maintains a layout in my basement till his wife gives him room in their basement, loves smoke. When he’s in my basement running trains he is a true believer in maximum smoke output. When he is downstairs running, I can’t go down there. While everything I’ve read on the topic indicates model train smoke isn’t harmful, it makes it difficult for me to breathe. It may be purely psychological on my part but, if I can’t breathe in a roomful of train smoke that’s MY reality.

Curt

I know it is dangerous to people with respiratory conditions like asthma.  I posted on this about 3+ years ago and learned a lot because my wife has asthma.  A lot of good came out of that post because I purchased an awesome air purifier out of Canada and put it in my train room.  When I run smoke, my train room is sealed beneath the door with a rag and the purifier cleanses the air 100% using a heavy-duty carbon filter.

Since then, because I run the purifier on low 24 hrs. a day, the air quality in our home is remarkably better and my wife ran it high during Covid whenever we had an unexpected visitor or contractor visiting.  It also removes a lot of dust in the train room and the rest of the basement.

Mike

Curt, I greatly appreciate your above post. If model train smoke affects your breathing at all, it's certainly best for you to shut off the smoke feature on your trains.

I'm more like your youngest son. Like him, I set the smoke at maximum output, and never turn it off. Whenever I don't want smoke, I simply run trains that don't have the smoke feature. Arnold

It's not smoke. It is vapor; fog, if you will. There's no combustion.

@Arnold D. Cribari posted:

Thanks for your input, Marty. If I'm worried at all, it's only a tiny bit. As I mentioned before, I love the smoke feature. I plan to continue to enjoy it in moderation.

Still, I wonder about its safety, and am curious what others think. Arnold

I have an assortment of comments.

A fellow TCA member who is also an MD did suggest that a sign be posted on public display layouts warning that asthmatics may be sensitive to the smoke.  I have the exact wording somewhere.

I do know that Rich Melvin does not want the contents of smoke fluids revealed in detail.

Most fluids are petroleum distillates which cover a long list of chemicals.  Many, when vaporized, are near harmless.

Having designed fluids for the TAS smoke unit, I can tell you that many folks I have talked with have used fluids that are toxic and dangerous.  There is no room for experimentation here, just use what the marketplace offers.

Regards,

Lou N

Back in the 50's, I used to inhale the smoke directly out of the engine stack and exhale it to make believe I was smoking a cigarette. 

I'd be more concerned about the pesticides in your oatmeal.

Smoke ‘vapor’ is indeed a valid concern and I am surprised every manufacturer is not required to have an MSDS for it, we have to have one for EVERY minor chemical we use at most places I do maintenance as a precaution against any possible legal action with the public we serve in Motels and apartments.

I’ve also been around ‘fog’ a lot in my small part in the live entertainment industry (play music, volunteer at our local independent radio station and act as roadie/ sound man/ videographer for friends’ bands).

Commercial fog is just glycerin of various percentages, but even this basic chemical causes trouble in people with asthma and other issues that cause sensitive lungs, indeed there is building proof of simple vaporized glycerin causing this and it may get to a point we have to post signs around, which is no problem for me, I want to keep friends, family and fans safe and comfortable!

I know there have been many formulations of model train ‘smoke’ over the years, many ‘patent’ or at least ‘trade secret’ products, I would not doubt that sooner or later MSDS sheets will need to be made available for liability concerns.

I don’t know what these cost manufacturers  to generate but personally, I feel much more comfortable knowing if there are ANY concerns, I can pull out my binder and show it to anyone concerned and that generally is the end of the story. Insurance companies love full disclosure, tort lawyers generally don’t pursue action where full disclosure is made.

Though it has never been asked of me, if an attorney wanted more information about what I use I would be glad to flood them with a deluge of technical documentation that would make their head spin. 😊

Mine is a non-smoking house.  I learned from our gas company technician that women have 10x better sense of smell than men, so I respect her wishes of no model train smoke.

I've run smoke for years and still going strong....

But seriously, I have allergies and it does not irritate my nose or eyes. I think after all these years if there were a correlation between train smoke and health issues, it would have surfaced by now..

Arnold - this is a "Very interesting" post -as always!

I never inhale...

I don't really have a dog in this hunt inasmuch as  I only have two steam locos and there is no black smoke available for my six Alcos. In both instances I have cut the wires to those two smoke units to permanently disable them. Why? Because the smoke makes my eyes water and stings my nostrils; while a former member of our Thursday night train group loved smoke and in spite of being asked not to, turned the smoke units on whenever I wasn't looking or elsewhere in the room.

I've inhaled much worse than train smoke many, many years ago and I am still here. Might have killed and/or dusted some brain cells but the amount of smoke we inhale from running trains is a lot less than what was consumed in the "hey man, this is good s--t" days.

Besides, we can buy all kinds of flavor/smell!

Keep running those trains.

Arnold, I applaud you for having the courage to raise this issue. I imagine a lot of readers are rolling their eyes at this question, IMO mostly because they love their smoke and don't want to entertain the possibility that this great hobby could pose a hazard to their health. But common sense tells us that breathing in foreign substances in a confined space can at best be neutral and at worse be hazardous. I think yours is a very valid concern, and that makers of smoke generators (not just Lionel but Seuthe and others) should be transparent about what's in their smoke and what the potential health effects are.

Is there a safety data sheet available?

I found this in about 2 seconds:

https://mthtrains.com/news/006

I may be misreading this MSDS, but it appears to indicate the material's properties in its liquid form. Since the oil is vaporized in the smoke generator, is it the role of the MSDS to indicate expected impacts of the substance in its vaporized form?

The above is from www.megasteam.com. 

A PDF from supersmoke that was brought to my attention under my "asthma" post a few years ago also says if a contaminated room bothers you, leave it.  Good advice for health reasons for anyone that is affected by it.

I love smoke and run my trains with smoke because it doesn't bother me at all.  But I have a system to separate it from the rest of the house.

It’s probably not all that different than burning a candle, and surely not as bad as sitting next to a camp fire.

As with anything, everything in moderation.

This is one of those subjects that comes up at least once a year, for over two decades in fact, the entire life of this forum..  It’s been discussed to death every which way, up and down, left to right.  

And what have we learned?  Nothing of any importance, use them if you like the effect or don’t.  That simple.

Over the decades I've used Floquil, Diosol, tube glue, Solvaset, gasoline, lacquer thinner,  trichloroethylene, and more...

An' I ain't got no dain bramage yet.

erdnA

As a former cigarette smoker since 2008 and retired baker since 2003, I have a mild case of COPD but the smoke vaper doesn't bother me but I did install a bathroom exhaust fan above my layout, and it pulls the smoke right up and out. 99% of the time I run trains with the smoke turned off or on low volume on the MTH steamers. I never run smoke units in my diesels.

@superwarp1 posted:

This is one of those subjects that comes up at least once a year, for over two decades in fact, the entire life of this forum..

Seem to recall one such discussion many years ago where one forum member, in all seriousness, decided that toy train smoke was the root cause of all of his health issues at the time and announced that he planned to sue Lionel, MTH, and one or two smoke fluid makers. iirc he disappeared from the forum soon after, but pretty sure that lawsuit never got anywhere…

redrockbill

Smoke ! Oh no !!!

If only I could get black smoke from my Alcos.

Seriously though, don't use it if you are sensitive to it. Obviously I'm not.

@Ron H posted:

Smoke ! Oh no !!!

If only I could get black smoke from my Alcos.

Seriously though, don't use it if you are sensitive to it. Obviously I'm not.

Love them smokin Alcos! Though white smoke would indicate a coolant leak generally!

When I was a kid on the San Francisco Peninsula the smoking FM Trainmaster’s were ‘honorary steam locos’ because all steam was gone to scrap or parks before I was born in 64, though we did see The Flying Scotsman on a foggy November day in about 1971…

@rplst8 posted:

It’s probably not all that different than burning a candle, and surely not as bad as sitting next to a camp fire.

As with anything, everything in moderation.

If you are using mineral oil, a.k.a. paraffinic oil, in your smoke unit, it produces exactly the same type of "smoke" that a paraffin candle produces AFTER being blown out, which is why you get the same smell. In fact, a "sooty" burning paraffin candle (wick not trimmed properly) produces more hazardous particulates (including "buckyballs", apparently) than the vaporized paraffinic oil micro-droplets from your smoke unit, even with a fan.

@Lou N posted:

I do know that Rich Melvin does not want the contents of smoke fluids revealed in detail.

Regards,

Lou N

Why?

@Gene H posted:

but I did install a bathroom exhaust fan above my layout, and it pulls the smoke right up and out

My air purifier does that, too, at 600 cf per minute, like a commercial grade bath fan.  It also enhances the look of smoke coming from my engines by pulling the steam from across the room into it. I like the look of that, and the smoke isn't in my face. 

Tempest in a teapot.

@Lou N posted:

I do know that Rich Melvin does not want the contents of smoke fluids revealed in detail.

Regards,

Lou N

I’m pretty sure Rich doesn’t care if anyone knows what’s in smoke fluid but OGR always frowned upon talk of any home brew smoke fluid when there are safe and manufacturer recommended fluids available for purchase.

There are no definitive answers as the issue has never been studied in any way. This material (neutral fats) is very different than the products of combustion and microparticulate matter, which clearly are associated with heart and lung disease (and earlier death).   Neutral fats do not interact with the body's cells by and large and thus do not directly cause inflammation as do products of combustion.  Very large amounts of mineral oil or mineral oil like substances (i.e., neutral fats) in liquid form that find their way into the lung can cause serious or even fatal pneumonia.   But vapor phase mineral oil has never been studied to my knowledge.  The dose is much lower, but penetration into the lung is probably much greater than liquid phase. Probably a modest or zero risk for occasional exposure.  For daily exposure for longer periods of time, maybe not such a good idea.  Particularly for those with lung or heart disease, and for children.

The observation that asthmatic individuals react badly to model train "smoke" in some instances tells us two things, if correct. The vapor phase lipid (fat) makes its way down into the "tubing" (bronchi) and perhaps into the functional units of the lung (alveoli) and can cause at least irritation in susceptible individuals.  Everyone will just have to make their own choices and risk assessments, since there are no data whatever.  My own choice is to only rarely use smoke units.

@Mark V. Spadaro posted:

Tempest in a teapot.

BOY......YOU SAID IT!!!!!!!

I love smoke and it doesn’t bother me. It does bother my wife and when she comes to the basement I stop the smoke. Wearing a mask might help those who want smoke but find it irritating. I’m going to ask my wife to try one out to learn if it helps.

Ed

Doubt everyone will be happy as it appears there are 2 distinct camps. It was mentioned about candles, what about those Glade style plug in air fresheners? How do they get the scent out? Have a friend that smokes 2 packs a day, went to a restaurant with a group and they asked for cooked on the grill hot dogs. When his arrived with some minor charring he said it causes cancer and he avoids it. They all stared in disbelief.

Over the years, I've often pondered your question Arnold.   I do like the smoke, especially from the steam locomotives,  because the visual enhances the realistic thrill!    I also enjoy the scented smoke especially the Christmas Pine Scent.  

I am, however, sensitive to the fact that some folks are physically sensitive to smoke.  When visitors come see my layout I first run locomotives with the smoke off and ask visitors if they are physically sensitive  to smoke or have a health issue that smoke may irritate.  If someone does I leave the smoke off and of course if no one has objections I turn smoke on one locomotive at a time.  I also keep a window AC unit ( with an exhaust setting ) in my train room year round for the purpose of evacuating the smoke ... even in winter months.

As for running trains by myself, I leave the smoke on and use the AC unit for smoke evacuation accordingly.

@BobbyD posted:

Doubt everyone will be happy as it appears there are 2 distinct camps. It was mentioned about candles, what about those Glade style plug in air fresheners? How do they get the scent out? Have a friend that smokes 2 packs a day, went to a restaurant with a group and they asked for cooked on the grill hot dogs. When his arrived with some minor charring he said it causes cancer and he avoids it. They all stared in disbelief.

Yes, that gate swings both ways.  I used to be a 2 pack a day smoker.  I was annoyed when overweight people would look down at me or comment on my smoking habit.   Now I'm 50 pounds heavier without cigarettes.  Not sure if I'm any healthier as I pop multiple pills a day to help protect my heart

Are there really 2 distinct camps? Seems like the lines are blurred.  If you smoke train smoke like me, don't care, but warn or protect others that may be allegic to the scent or the burning mineral oil vapor you're putting in the air when you run your trains, aren't you just being courteous?  Seems like common sense without controversy.

The only constructive comment I can make on this subject is to always include an exhaust fan, with an on-off switch, in the design of your train room. It reduces the probability that your spouse will be bothered by the smoke while also reducing the possibility of ill effects.

@Landsteiner posted:

Everyone will just have to make their own choices and risk assessments, since there are no data whatever.

And being there is no data we revert to ‘be reasonable and courteous’. I think your detailed analysis covers it well! Thank you.

"Yo!  Finally!  A thread we can dig, man!  Now, if only there was a 'Mary Jane' flavor!  High-Rail would be  whole new feature-realm!"

-------------------

Just kidding, of course.  Ours is a smoke-free house...period. 

The flip side of all that smoke is that it doesn't totally dissipate...it deposits!!...over your engines, rolling stock, lineside structures/scenery, etc., etc., etc., blah, blah. 

And yet, the worst 'smoke' problem wife and I encountered was in tearing down a huge room-size layout for a widow.  Her husband had added a room onto the house...IMMEDIATELY adjacent to the kitchen.  We're talking 'open-concept', 'flow-through' home design, folks.  So EVERYTHING was coated with cooking oils/smoke debris...made that much more interesting by a curious mixture of steam/smoke pills and oils from years of choo-choo poo-poo...as evidenced by the bottle line-up left sitting on the control panel.  (In retrospect, I wish I'd taken a photo of that!)  So, aside from the pulmonary aspects of Pullmor puffing power...and beyond...the crud-coating is hard to ignore in the long haul.  Dust, alone, is bad enough.  Dust added to the oily residues??...OMG!, not for me/us!

But, TEHO.  'Whatever keeps your boat afloat', they say.

@IRON HORSE posted:

My air purifier does that, too, at 600 cf per minute, like a commercial grade bath fan.  It also enhances the look of smoke coming from my engines by pulling the steam from across the room into it. I like the look of that, and the smoke isn't in my face.

Can you do a video for us.

25 (or so) years ago, the Toy Train Mailing List had an ongoing discussion on Lionel smoke pellets and smoke fluids. One of the contributors, Dr. Chip Miller, a chemist at a research facility, analyzed the pellets and determined that they were Terphenyl.  At a Friday morning York TTML breakfast, he gave the attendees packets of the white powder with a caveat of "don't let LEOs catch you with it".  I believe Dr. Miller's identification of the Lionel chemical led to the re-manufacture of pellets.  This article is a description of Lionel's smoke pellet development and Dr. Miller's identification of the chemical.

MTH delivered it's (IIRC) first diecast articulated engine in 1996 - the Railking Challenger - with a motorized smoke generator that replaced the Seuth units used previously.  The new MTH unit generated billows of smoke.  I first ran this engine at a holiday show and quickly ran out of smoke fluid.  Once the fluid bottle distributed with the engine ran out, one of the other show operators, a musician who used smoke generators, brought in a gallon jug of his smoke fluid which worked great.  Of course the MTH instructions demanded only MTH smoke fluid (unavailable at the time) so I was interested in what the musician/theater guys used to generate smoke.  The chemical is usually propylene glycol.  In TTML discussions, Dr. Miller said that a propylene glycol mist was used to prevent infections in labs (here is an NIH paper on the subject).  Dept 56 smoke fluid is scented propylene glycol.  So, assured that propylene glycol mist is not a health risk I started using readily available Dept 56 fluid as a substitute.

Highly refined lamp oil was recommended by some in the years before MTH began shipping their own smoke fluid.  A bottle of lamp oil can be mineral oil or kerosene.  A smokestack fire from vaporized kerosene is not something to want under an xmas tree layout and this forum had warnings against using lamp oil.

Mineral oils are the basis commercially available smoke fluids.  Mineral oil flash points vary (they are higher than kerosene) as well as the persistent of the oil particle cloud.  I hope that a "food grade" mineral oil is used.  They are scented to disguise the fact that the cloud is vaporized oil particles.   Your sensitivity may vary.

At shows, my clubs use smoke fluids from several manufacturers.  We host up to 1,000 guests a day and the ventilation of the venues is sometimes inadequate.  We like to have all the sight and sound features of our trains active.  Some guests have to get away from the layout when several steamers are operating so when we see this happening, we turn the smoke down, or off, to let the air clear.

At home I usually turn smoke off so I don't have oil particles settle on everything.  (I have too many dust collectors as is).

@Darrell posted:

I found this in about 2 seconds:

https://mthtrains.com/news/006

This is an MSDS sheet,  Material Safety Data Sheet for MTH smoke fluid.

Not addressing the health aspect  but my wife has an scent tolerance concern.

I have side stepped that issue by using UNSCENTED versions of MTH and MEGA.

@BobbyD posted:

what about those Glade style plug in air fresheners? How do they get the scent out? Have a friend that smokes 2 packs a day, went to a restaurant with a group and they asked for cooked on the grill hot dogs. When his arrived with some minor charring he said it causes cancer and he avoids it. They all stared in disbelief.

Those air "fresheners" give me a major headache.

Your friend sounds like a wacko, but probably a lovable one.

@BobbyD posted:

...what about those Glade style plug in air fresheners?

When I'm not looking, my wife plugs them in. When she's not looking, I unplug them. And we don't talk about it. 😅

@Mike CT posted:

This is an MSDS sheet,  Material Safety Data Sheet for MTH smoke fluid.

Yes, someone asked if one existed.

What was the base for the original Lionel SP pellets.  They seemed to have hardly any smell when I was using them In the 1950's.

@Patrick1544 posted:

What was the base for the original Lionel SP pellets.  They seemed to have hardly any smell when I was using them In the 1950's.

This detailed history was posted earlier: https://www.trains.com/ctt/beginners/smoke-pellets/

@Patrick1544 posted:

What was the base for the original Lionel SP pellets.  They seemed to have hardly any smell when I was using them In the 1950's.

M-Terphynel or however it is spelled.

Anybody remember putting aspirin in Lionel stacks?

Folks all this is great information and leave it to Arnold to come up with these off the wall topics. All kidding aside we only live once so enjoy life while we can and let them locomotives smoke in the end it most likely make a "HOOT" any way!!!! Me I keep the all set at the low range due to smoke dictators in the basement train room going off.

Since the MSDS says it’s mineral oil. Would using Mineral Oil from the pharmacy be the same as unscented

At the local club layout, the smoke attracts the children and drives away the HO modelers. I would call it a win-win.

@Mark V. Spadaro posted:

Anybody remember putting aspirin in Lionel stacks?

That's one I've never heard. So, what did an aspirin in the stack produce, Mark? (aside from pain relief for the engine…)

I can only offer anecdotal evidence:  it affects my asthma much, much less than the heavy perfumes most women and many men wear nowadays.  Toy train smoke--even the scents I have encountered--hardly creates any effect, but the perfume--like cigarette smoke--sends me stumbling from the room coughing.   I'll take Oil-fired over Channel No. 5 ANY day.

@redrockbill posted:

That's one I've never heard. So, what did an aspirin in the stack produce, Mark? (aside from pain relief for the engine…)

Smoke that didn’t cause headaches?

Actually dropping in an uncoated aspirin in a PW engine gave smoke indistinguishable from Lionel smoke pellets, and a bottle of aspirin was cheaper than a bottle of smoke pellets. Since aspirins were ingested, I can’t imagine vaporized acetylsalicylic acid would be in any way toxic.

@Mark V. Spadaro posted:

Smoke that didn’t cause headaches?

Actually dropping in an uncoated aspirin in a PW engine gave smoke indistinguishable from Lionel smoke pellets, and a bottle of aspirin was cheaper than a bottle of smoke pellets. Since aspirins were ingested, I can’t imagine vaporized acetylsalicylic acid would be in any way toxic.

Heat and atmospheric moisture will hydrolyze acetylsalicylic acid to acetic acid and salicylic acid. I would be concerned the corrosivity of these organic acids would have a negative effect on heater wiring and diecast zinc and cause the kind of damage one sees around the wiring and smokestacks of pellet-smoke steamers. This damage would likely be exacerbated in regions with consistently higher absolute humidity, such as the southeastern states.

My father was thrifty; we used aspirin. I still use aspirin when I, infrequently, run postwar lokes. Haven’t noticed any deleterious effects.

@yardtrain posted:

Can you do a video for us.

I'll try but my layout is currently under construction.  I took a video awhile ago but I'm having a hard time finding it.  Thanks for your interest. 

@palallin posted:

I can only offer anecdotal evidence:  it affects my asthma much, much less than the heavy perfumes most women and many men wear nowadays.  Toy train smoke--even the scents I have encountered--hardly creates any effect, but the perfume--like cigarette smoke--sends me stumbling from the room coughing.   I'll take Oil-fired over Channel No. 5 ANY day.

Interesting experience as an asthmatic.  Thanks for sharing this.  The scented smoke was the issue with asthma with my wife.  So I run only unscented, but still keep it entirely isolated from her.

@IRON HORSE posted:

Interesting experience as an asthmatic.  Thanks for sharing this.  The scented smoke was the issue with asthma with my wife.  So I run only unscented, but still keep it entirely isolated from her.

My wife and children have asthma, I don’t but am sensitive to many chemicals.

As kids we loved riding the Redwood Valley Railway in the Oakland, California hills. One day about 1972 we each got a cab ride and got to fire the coal burning loco. I was thrilled and amazed at these shiny black rocks that burned and still love a bit of the smell of coal smoke!

I wonder if a scent similar to coal, oil or diesel burning locomotives is available, I don’t suppose any of the Dept 56 companies sell such a thing!

Once I get my garden railroad up again, I have found a source of coal and intend to use it! If not to fire the locos, at least as an ‘engineer warmer’!

To preserve the elements, I use mineral oil-based fluid in my PW and MPC-era steamers in which the heater cannot be turned off, per the instructions. In the newer locos with a switch for the smoker, I turn it off. For example, I just got a $1400 Legacy Veranda Turbine and I can't bring myself to put fluid in it and get oil all over the turbine and diesel exhaust ports. I know the fan-driven smoke units give a spectacular display, but I just can't do it.

I thought about this all day. You heat up mineral oil which converts the liquid into a gas......but instead of collecting the gas in another container (like say we were distilling EtOH from a water/ehanol mixture), we allow it to flow freely in the air.

The air is obviously cooler and it changes form back into a liquid but the gas is spread over a large area where we can't really see it changing back. Then, we discover it as the oily residue that builds up on the rails ( and, I imagine, other surfaces if we looked for it).

Peter

@palallin posted:

I can only offer anecdotal evidence:  it affects my asthma much, much less than the heavy perfumes most women and many men wear nowadays.

There seem to be two major chemistries in women's perfumes. One gives me a headache and the other makes me nauseous. Neither one makes me feel good.

@RoyBoy posted:

There seem to be two major chemistries in women's perfumes. One gives me a headache and the other makes me nauseous. Neither one makes me feel good.

Hmmm... I thought it was women who get the headaches (or say they do), and when they put perfume on it, is supposed to make us feel good

@Russell - Idaho USA posted:

Smoke ‘vapor’ is indeed a valid concern and I am surprised every manufacturer is not required to have an MSDS for it,

Do you have MSDS for everything in your home? Lighter fluid? Ivory soap? Comet cleanser? Shoe polish? Vinegar? Why would anyone need that for their home? We're not talking about Draino or wasp killer here, it's mineral oil, you know, the stuff you can take internally when you can't go. Most homes don't have a binder full of MSDS paperwork on everything they have in the house.

I think we've pretty much beaten this dead horse to a pulp on this and a number of other topics, plywood vs OSB, kitty litter ballast et al but like Jason Vorhees it will rise again in the future.

If you have a medical condition that can be aggravated by it, THEN DON'T USE IT! ( valid concern, the only one actually )

If your spouse doesn't like the smell, THEN DON'T USE IT!

If you're paranoid about growing a third eye or a symbiotic twin, THEN DON'T USE IT !

We are all grown adults here and this isn't that complicated.

To paraphrase Linus Van Pelt "Some people can manage to take a wonderful hobby like model railroading and turn it into a problem!"

Jerry

I think the purpose of Arnold's post was to better understand the nature of the stuff hobbyists (and their grandkids) are inhaling and being deposited all over their layouts.  I think knowing is better than not knowing. And the extent of the responses to his post tells me that there is definite interest in knowing. If you don't want to know, then there's no reason to keep following the thread.

And it has been discussed ad nauseum here on the forum. No one is posting any new information on the subject just a rehash of a rehash of a rehash so in all reality it benefits no one. In fact none of the replys have any info on the medical effects of the smoke/fog on us humans so it provides no real info to anyone who is interested in the subject.

I really believe they need to have a forum topic called "Not This Crap Again" for just such things.

Jerry

@baltimoretrainworks posted:

In fact none of the replys have any info on the medical effects of the smoke/fog on us humans so it provides no real info to anyone who is interested in the subject.

Sadly, this is true.

@West Side Joe posted:

Sadly, this is true.

I will add though, I have appreciated the info here as I am not a regular on this forum.

To add my 1.7¢ (inflation you know), I love smoking locos, especially the newer fan driven units with steam leaking out other places too, though I don’t use them often because of the oily residue mostly.

I will be using the glycerine based solution we use on stage, pretty harmless to most anything, just adds a bit of humidity to the air generally…

Here are detailed instructions on making your own. https://stagebibles.com/how-to-make-fog-juice/

@Putnam Division posted:

I thought about this all day. You heat up mineral oil which converts the liquid into a gas......but instead of collecting the gas in another container (like say we were distilling EtOH from a water/ehanol mixture), we allow it to flow freely in the air.

The air is obviously cooler and it changes form back into a liquid but the gas is spread over a large area where we can't really see it changing back. Then, we discover it as the oily residue that builds up on the rails ( and, I imagine, other surfaces if we looked for it).

Peter

Ethanol (C2H5OH), ??? may be the only potable alcohol??? Some say the scourge of the earth.  IMO.

Ethanol has a boiling point, (temperature at which it changes state from a liquid to a gas), that is lower than water, allowing for separation of water and alcohol.

Like any other potentially harmful exposures, frequency, concentration and length of exposure are the key facets. I can’t believe any model railroad hobbyist(s), can spend enough time in and around toy train smoke to affect their health one iota.

People with reactive airways - different circumstance. Mild asthmatics MAY have no symptoms or a mild reaction. Moderate asthmatics MAY have no symptoms, mild symptoms or moderate symptoms. Severe asthmatics should use caution, and most know what their triggers are. I can imagine a severe asthmatic getting blindsided by walking into a club’s open house unaware he would be confronted with toy train smoke. In my limited experience, I have never heard of this happening. I welcome any poster to let us know if they’ve seen this scenario unfold.

@West Side Joe posted:

I think the purpose of Arnold's post was to better understand the nature of the stuff hobbyists (and their grandkids) are inhaling and being deposited all over their layouts.  I think knowing is better than not knowing. And the extent of the responses to his post tells me that there is definite interest in knowing. If you don't want to know, then there's no reason to keep following the thread.

@baltimoretrainworks posted:

And it has been discussed ad nauseum here on the forum. No one is posting any new information on the subject just a rehash of a rehash of a rehash so in all reality it benefits no one. In fact none of the replys have any info on the medical effects of the smoke/fog on us humans so it provides no real info to anyone who is interested in the subject.

I really believe they need to have a forum topic called "Not This Crap Again" for just such things.

Jerry

Well, Jerry if you really believe what you say about this thread, then please take West Side Joe's advice and ignore the thread!

I submit that there is NOTHING WORSE on a forum than to complain about other people's threads! If you don't like what people are talking about, move on!

There are plenty of newcomers, folks that didn't even know that something could be hazardous, or those just interested in sharing their experiences (and/or reading other's) that provide valid reasons for discussing a topic again.

Granted, this is an oft requested subject and in a certain sense it is valid.

When you look at the upper right corner of the profile page you will see a large group listing of new members.  I imagine many of them have not had an opportunity to inquire about what is old hat here.

For those of us who have experienced waves of similar questions posted we need to remember when we were just beginning.

Demographically, I have been told that the majority of us are in the North East US.  Many close to train clubs, frequent train shows and train stores where cross pollination of information readily flows.  However others can be hundreds  of miles from such places, somewhat isolated.

One of the good/bad aspects of a on line forum is that questions can be posted and the author has a degree of anonymity.

Good because you can ask a question about something you may think you should know, thereby save face.

Bad because instead of a repeated flow of positive in put you are ridiculed.  Things are said on line that would never be said face to face.

The horse is most assuredly DEAD, we can stop beating it!!

@Mike CT posted:

Ethanol has a boiling point, (temperature at which it changes state from a liquid to a gas), that is lower than water, allowing for separation of water and alcohol.

Yup! That is it exactly....

As you know, Mike, I have spent my adult life dealing with small molecular weight, water soluble molecules......that can go through a dialysis membrane.

Peter

Given that indoor air quality in American homes is generally poor; the fact that the artificial materials, coatings, plastics, preservatives in wood, and so on in homes are constantly giving off volatiles such as formaldehyde and other chemicals; not to forget particulates, dust mites, and so forth, I think the short and intermittent use of train smoke is probably of little concern vs. just living and breathing in your home everyday, your car on the roadway, or outside air in some locations.

I like smoke but I don't know if it's safe our not. I do know my nose doesn't like it, so I don't leave smoke on very long.

All and @Arnold D. Cribari

Short answer according to OSHA is "maybe but really no".  OSHA Guideline for Mineral Oil Mist

While OSHA has 8 hour worker exposure limits and suggests PPE be worn in certain conditions and there may be respiratory symptoms with high exposure, they further acknowledge  "pulmonary effects ... are rarely reported". Animal (mouse) studies have not detected any deleterious effects.  Toward the end of the document they note there is a striking lack of cases in exposed workers across several industries with such exposure over years.

Back in the day I had to go to an industrial library to access this kind of information. Today figuring out the right search string is the challenge.

FWIW - I used to work in a wire factory with lots of rotating equipment slinging oil into the air. After an 8 or 12 hour shift, my skin would be coated with a thin film of oil. I could not wait to get into a shower to get that stuff off.  Always wondered what it was doing to my lungs - apparently nothing 40 years later. I don't use the smoke all that much, but the fact is the oil is going to settle out somewhere in the train room unless you have a decent exhaust. Maybe the stage smoke using glycerine is a better idea - but having to empty the smoke unit every time would not be my first choice.

@ScoutingDad posted:

All and @Arnold D. Cribari

Short answer according to OSHA is "maybe but really no".  OSHA Guideline for Mineral Oil Mist

While OSHA has 8 hour worker exposure limits and suggests PPE be worn in certain conditions and there may be respiratory symptoms with high exposure, they further acknowledge  "pulmonary effects ... are rarely reported". Animal (mouse) studies have not detected any deleterious effects.  Toward the end of the document they note there is a striking lack of cases in exposed workers across several industries with such exposure over years.

Back in the day I had to go to an industrial library to access this kind of information. Today figuring out the right search string is the challenge.

FWIW - I used to work in a wire factory with lots of rotating equipment slinging oil into the air. After an 8 or 12 hour shift, my skin would be coated with a thin film of oil. I could not wait to get into a shower to get that stuff off.  Always wondered what it was doing to my lungs - apparently nothing 40 years later. I don't use the smoke all that much, but the fact is the oil is going to settle out somewhere in the train room unless you have a decent exhaust. Maybe the stage smoke using glycerine is a better idea - but having to empty the smoke unit every time would not be my first choice.

Thanks for that document link. Basically ‘breathing this can’t be good for you, but no one had died from it because they die from all the other nasty stuff we breathe in first.’

Excellent link. Thank you.

Regarding smoke oil mist, most of my train running is on modular layouts at public shows.  We run hard and bring the modules home to store "wet".  In my case, in a non-climate controlled garage.  I observe that since the advent of smoke oil steamers, my tinplate track does not rust.  Instead, it gets a layer of grunge that gets cleaned with a metal polish (Brasso) before the next show.

I love smoke and always use it when I'm by myself. But it does cause a lingering smell in the basement. Luckily I will have an exhaust system to counteract that when I get the permanent layout built. I would turn it off without a question for anybody who was bothered by it though.

This is likely a dosage problem. It's infrequently inhaled so it's not an issue. I'm sure huffing it all day every day would cause issues.

Fun fact, I'm apparently still new enough that I haven't seen this topic come up before.

@baltimoretrainworks posted:

Do you have MSDS for everything in your home? Lighter fluid? Ivory soap? Comet cleanser? Shoe polish? Vinegar? Why would anyone need that for their home? We're not talking about Draino or wasp killer here, it's mineral oil, you know, the stuff you can take internally when you can't go. Most homes don't have a binder full of MSDS paperwork on everything they have in the house.

I think we've pretty much beaten this dead horse to a pulp on this and a number of other topics, plywood vs OSB, kitty litter ballast et al but like Jason Vorhees it will rise again in the future.

If you have a medical condition that can be aggravated by it, THEN DON'T USE IT! ( valid concern, the only one actually )

If your spouse doesn't like the smell, THEN DON'T USE IT!

If you're paranoid about growing a third eye or a symbiotic twin, THEN DON'T USE IT !

We are all grown adults here and this isn't that complicated.

To paraphrase Linus Van Pelt "Some people can manage to take a wonderful hobby like model railroading and turn it into a problem!"

Jerry

I just learned mineral oil helps you go!  Perhaps we can flush the fiber supplements and use that fine oil we burn through our trains instead

So are we really beating a dead horse?  When you peer through the smoke, let it smoke, and talk about the smoke, sometimes we see new tidbits on old topics.

Certainly a lot safer then eating at mcDonalds in NYC-

Interesting detail (as it applies to this topic) from the new Menards structure. Gonna be interested to see how this works…

"There is also an operating smoke unit (to simulate frying those burgers) utilizing water vapor (no smoke fluid needed)."

Given my years of experience reading warning labels, I am currently under the assumption that it's only a hazard for people living in California!!!!!

Cheers, Dave  

IRON HORSE: The dead horse pix was really gross and has nothing to do with our hobby.

I think if you follow the old saying "Everything in moderation" which means avoid extremes you'll be fine.

There are much more important things to worry about in this day and age!

And yes the

@john in western pa posted:

IRON HORSE: The dead horse pix was really gross and has nothing to do with our hobby.

I'm not making this up.  I found the picture online and clipped it.  It is a LIVE horse faking that he is dead, which I thought was pretty funny.  That's why I posted it.  Look closely:  He doesn't look dead to me!  I was torn, though, between that picture and this one:

i'm more worried about getting diagnosed with colon cancer at 27 than my train smoke being safe

although i don't have anything that smokes yet

i really want an lc 2.0 diesel and diesel scented smoke fluid so my bedroom smells like a real locomotive but i know my dumb self would either fill it too much or too little

i'm eyeballing a GP20, rs3 , gp7 or tier 4 from trainworld to be wrapped for me under the tree this year but i really don't see it happening

@RoyBoy posted:

M-Terphynel or however it is spelled.

Close. m-Terphenyl.

I like smoke but my wifes asthma doesn't.  I run the vent fan that pumps it outside and keeps it down.

Attached is an older video clip of my Airpura air purifier running with my MTH engine at full smoke.  The Airpura unit was recommended from a fellow forum member.  It's a little hard to see.  The smoke rises toward the ceiling but then shifts downward toward the black air purifier on the floor. Once it travels to it, it disappears.  And within a few hours after running trains the smell of smoke is completely gone.  It also reduces dust and works great when you're painting or use foam burning tools or soldering.

As I stated earlier, I like it because you can physically see where the smoke is and disappearing, allowing you to stay away when you don't want to breathe it.

@IRON HORSE posted:

Attached is an older video clip of my Airpura air purifier running with my MTH engine at full smoke.  The Airpura unit was recommended from a fellow forum member.  It's a little hard to see.  The smoke rises toward the ceiling but then shifts downward toward the black air purifier on the floor. Once it travels to it, it disappears.  And within a few hours after running trains the smell of smoke is completely gone.  It also reduces dust and works great when you're painting or use foam burning tools or soldering.

As I stated earlier, I like it because you can physically see where the smoke is and disappearing, allowing you to stay away when you don't want to breathe it.

Very cool! Thanks for that demo!

We had a similar air purifier (though a much simpler device) we used at the daycare near the diaper changing area, worked wonders!

@MartyE posted:

I think if you’re worried about it don’t turn it on. It’s a pretty simple solution for anyone concerned.

Im sure Dr. Neil has some insight. Me. I run smoke.

You got that right Marty!-Another "psycho- worry" looking for a place to exist. Nick