I have read about the commutators sections of the Lionel prewar armatures commutators letting go (blowing up) and destroying the armature. I tried to look in th forums search but could not locate on being proactive and to epoxy the commutator. What type of epoxy to use (JB weld any good?). Where to glue? Where to run a epoxy bead? Does this only happen on the Lionel prewar standard gauge or could this happen on the Lionel O gauge?

 

RonH

Don't Junk it, Make it Work!

 

Original Post

I replace the phenolic ring on the barrel communtators with one cut from either phenolic sheet or tube.  That us what actually holds it together.

Jon G TCA 95-41020

Independent Lionel Service Tech

MTH Service Technician at MTH

Last edited by Jon G

I'm also very interested in what Ron is asking about.

Jon if you have any pictures that would certainly be  appreciated. I've been inside a few old SG motors but don't recall a phenolic ring but that's probably because I didn't know to look.  When I shred one I get a whole rebuilt armature from Bob Hannon but a little preventative maintenance might save me from having to do that.

Wow does this take me back to early slot car racing..  Any epoxy will work the thicker the consistence the better. I did the whole armature covering all the wires (not the metal)  right down to the commutator and even it a little. Let it dry really good, try to rotate armature while epoxy is still loose so you don't get a big glop somewhere.  Once dry but it in a drill motor or a drill press if you don't have a lathe, turn on the drill and carefully file down the epoxy.  While your at it now would be a good time to balance the armature.  You can really increase the voltage to the motor once you do this.

Pete in Kansas posted:

I'm also very interested in what Ron is asking about.

Jon if you have any pictures that would certainly be  appreciated. I've been inside a few old SG motors but don't recall a phenolic ring but that's probably because I didn't know to look.  When I shred one I get a whole rebuilt armature from Bob Hannon but a little preventative maintenance might save me from having to do that.

I just repaired one for Clem Clement, but returned it to him at the Chantilly train show.  Will have to dig out some motors and take a picture.

Jon G TCA 95-41020

Independent Lionel Service Tech

MTH Service Technician at MTH

Would love to see it. Question is this just a prewar standard gauge problem or are the prewar O gauge subject to the same armature problems? Would JB weld work?

RonH

Don't Junk it, Make it Work!

 

IMG_2308Barrel communtators were not used on Lionel O gauge (except later can motors) just super motors and early build-a-loco motors.  The phenolic ring is highlighted above.  There is a small step in the communtator that the ring fits snugly over to retain the segments.  If the ring cracks or is missing, the segments will fly apart like the weights on a governor, tearing off the leads to the armature.  I don't think glue or JB weld will be strong enough to resist the centrifugal force.

Jon G TCA 95-41020

Independent Lionel Service Tech

MTH Service Technician at MTH

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Last edited by Jon G

JB is attracted to magnetics, but I didn't get 15v4a to flow anything to a bright 3v bulb. (cant find the meter lol)... not even a 1v element glow.

"Still trying to not shoot my eye out"

 

"Nursing insomnia one railcar at a time"

My aroma therapy? Smoke Pellets.

 





If fairly thick, JB is hard as a rock.  With small dimensions, it can be brittle but if 360° I bet it'd hold.

Long cure version is stronger.

Some masking tapes will pull free of wet, now dry JB. Smooth stuff like plastic wrap and foil too can be used too. (wrinkle free or it's stuck... Trimable though.

Wait for 5minJB to set up some, then carve and push, sculpt with wet (or oiled) fingers and tools. It's like clay mid-set. Stress cracks upon movement mean you are done with major shaping and have about a minute tops to fine tune.

For a "glue" I'd call Locktite. I have never been able to glue to a shaft and have it hold except for locktite green(bearing retainer). (so bravo for anchoring it to the coils; genius).  Even JB will like not adhere to the shaft without removing the polish. Even then, that's some hard, smooth metal to bond to. 

"Still trying to not shoot my eye out"

 

"Nursing insomnia one railcar at a time"

My aroma therapy? Smoke Pellets.

 





A five minute two part epoxy (flow mix) works fine on O gauge. Harry Henning suggested using it on a previous thread discussing 152 motors. A small bead on the outside of each segment will do it. You can put a bit in the middle around the shaft or underneath each section depending on how much original material is missing but be careful to make it even all the way around. Magnifying glass and toothpicks really help.

If it was easy, anybody could do it!

Jon G posted:

IMG_2308Barrel communtators were not used on Lionel O gauge (except later can motors) just super motors and early build-a-loco motors.  The phenolic ring is highlighted above.  There is a small step in the communtator that the ring fits snugly over to retain the segments.  If the ring cracks or is missing, the segments will fly apart like the weights on a governor, tearing off the leads to the armature.  I don't think glue or JB weld will be strong enough to resist the centrifugal force.

Great information, so it looks like the best thing to do is to use a slow cure epoxy which is stronger and to place the epoxy between the ring and windings/coils and to build it up as necessary. The next question is cleaning this ares. Could a spray type electronic cleaner (that does not effect plastic) can be used? Not sure if alcohol can be used as one does not want to remove the covering on the windings.

RonH

Don't Junk it, Make it Work!

 

@RonH Did you ever epoxy your commutator segments? What did you use to clean and epoxy? Were you successful? I’m re-wheeling a 10E along with some wire insulation sleeving and was contemplating taking this preventative action. Thanks for any information. 

Regards

 

Rich

TCA 82-17718

Intracoastal Model Railroad Club Member

 

Lionel Trains’s the hobby that gets better with age!!!

@Jon G can you share any additional information on replacing the phenolic ring. My first thought was to look on line to replace it but didn’t see any. Than I had reread the thread and saw that you cut your own. Great idea. Any additional information on the size of the tube and supplier? Was the original already gone or did you have to remove by prying off? Was the new one a press fit or glued? Thanks for any information on the process.

Regards

 

Rich

TCA 82-17718

Intracoastal Model Railroad Club Member

 

Lionel Trains’s the hobby that gets better with age!!!

I have not yet.

I also have a 10E that I think I will start with. It is apart and in a Labele 10E project plastics shoe box (best way to keep my projects together) projects in. 
I have some electronic cleaner that does not affect plastic (bought at home depot) and will try that to clean the area (used it on other prewar O gauge engines to clean the motors).

I will try to take some pictures of the epoxy of the commutator and add then to this post.
Very busy with work and what is going on in the world. If work closes to a work a home scenario, I will have a lot opf time for my train hobbies.

RonH

Don't Junk it, Make it Work!

 

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