Hudson Premier Smoke stopped working

open the smoke unit and take a look inside, maybe burned up.

Do I need to remove the front truck?  I can't find all the mounting screws.

What's the exact product number?  If you look in the manual, they usually have the locations of the shell screws.

@SteveG posted:

Do I need to remove the front truck?  I can't find all the mounting screws.

I tried looking this up yesterday to give you advice but without a product number there are a lot of different Premier Hudsons.

Some have 4 screws, 2 in front, 2 in back, (example PREMIER DREYFUS HUDSON)

some have 3 screws, 1 under the front truck (sometimes visible if truck is swung far to the side- other times a hole in the truck allows access).

The body mount screws of the Hudson are normally two near the rear of the cab and one in the middle in the front, under the pilot truck.  There is usually a hole in the pilot truck you can reach through to get that screw, or you can just take the pilot truck off.

Also, just to be sure, you blew down the stack to ensure there was not a drop of freshly added fluid blocking the stack port?

It tends to form a meniscus due to surface tension of the fluid.

Trying to save a complete teardown.

Also, if and when you do open up the unit, another possible failure is a cracked smoke impeller that is just letting the motor shaft spin without actually blowing air. It's not a super common failure, but being a PS2 model this is an older engine.

I agree with Timmy if you ran it dry you possible burnt up the wick and if you open heater the wick will be Black being burnt up so wick can't wick the fluid thru the wick material! p.s wicks are very cheap I believe $2.00 MTH price you order online! what current do you see on your z4000 when you turn smoke on and off, that will tell you if resister is open!

MTH Electric Trains (mthpartsandsales.com)

item 41 is the wick!

Alan

It's 20-3135-1

The manual shows two mounting screws in the back.  Those are easy to identify.  It's the middle or front where I am stuck.

Manual diagram shows a pivet screw for the front truck and a mount screw under the truck.  I didn't remove front truck.

I saw two screws under the front truck holding a metal plate which didn't help when I removed them.

The single screw is centered under the pilot truck.  Take the pilot truck off and it'll be obvious.

On my https://mthtrains.com/20-3584-1 NYC 4-6-4 J-1e Hudson, technically you could access the screw through the hole in the truck but it is very narrow. So removing the front truck washer and screw allows it to swing out.

I pulled down your manual and again, it's highly likely the screw lines up with the hole in the truck. You also appear to have a smooth "wear plate" such that the rivet and spring that puts downward pressure on the truck allows the head of that rivet easy sliding surface. That said, there likely is a hole through it or stamped as such the screw location holding the body shell is more clearly seen if the truck is removed.

Again, zoomed in and from your manual (note, I feel they may have done a bad job with that line for the screw location "under the truck" as it is most definitely centerline of the engine, not off to one side.

Mine looks a bit different.

I removed the front truck.  There was a screw not in the middle, but just in front of the large topside wheel that I removed.  Then I removed two screws in front center.  You can see a red wire through the hole of one of them that was removed.

Still does not come off.

Ok, possible that i was wrong, again, there can be engine specific details and changes.

That implies this remaining screw is the one

Another possible option is that the wear plate lifts out (might be a snap fit around the die cast), and reveals a screw centered- about where the matching hole in the front truck would line up to, just behind the wear line that the rivet was sliding in.

I'll be very surprised if that offset screw is the one that holds the boiler shell on, I've never seen a single offset screw on any of these.

The screw should be right in the orange circle.

FWIW, I just checked my entire fleet, and could not find a similar Premier with a wear plate like that. Again, just went through several shelves of engines trying to find that style of arrangement.

Honestly, I agree should be centered in that area @gunrunnerjohn circled

The remaining screw I pointed at could be that air compressor detail mounting screw on the front frame/pilot area.

Darn, this isn't helping either, an engine specific parts diagram doesn't yet show up for this model. That kind of implies it was "special" or unique.

Somebody’s added a brass strip across the frame of that Hudson, ….that’s not stock, to my knowledge, ….hopefully it’s just held on with super glue, or similar,….you’ll have to pry that off to access the elusive screw,…

Pat

This is odd.  bought new from an authorized dealer, North East Trains.  It should not have any custom pieces.

Anyway, the screw was under that shiny plate.  The ends of the plate are bent 90 degrees down to hold it in place.  I removed the plate and screw. 

At this point, I wonder if I should keep going.  I've got post-it notes for all the screws so I don't mess up putting it back together.

What would I l do next?

Well, remove the single screw holding the smoke unit just like any other hudson and service the unit. It tilts and lifts out after removing that single  screw. Again, remove the screw, slightly tilt so the smoke cup clears the smoke stack protrusion inside the boiler shell, then the entire unit slides back and out of the opening.

He’s got a Santa Fe Hudson, not a NYC type, …..that plate is factory to keep the pilot truck tension pin from hanging up in the screw hole, and derailing it on curves,..

Pat

Also, opening the front might give you more visual when tilting and removing

Page 20 of the manual

Also, likely, the factory wick was between the elements, I do it more like this method

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTdc44HW9C8

and yet another video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPwULsnzzd4

I either use 3/16 or 1/4 inch fiberglass rope wick material unbraided, or OEM wick

Bottom of this common parts page https://www.mthpartsandsales.c...ts/240?type=products

I also normally pull out the impeller using needle nose pliers to grip a blade and pull straight out, to lube the motor bushing hidden by the impeller. When I press it back on the motor shaft, I also ensure it's not cracked and spinning freely on the motor shaft.

And while this is video primarily about a Lionel, there are details such as lubing the fan motor bushings and so forth that are similar on an MTH unit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ie1ByI3Z4Y

You can also unplug the two connectors to allow you to freely work on the smoke unit.  When I have them out, I replace the wick, and I also check the impeller.  If it doesn't fit firmly on the motor shaft, I replace it.  A common issue is the impeller gets loose on the motor shaft due to the sudden starts and stops of the chuffing.  This happens more with MTH than Lionel as MTH uses dynamic braking on the smoke motor to enhance the chuff appearance.  That braking operation puts sudden torque changes on the impeller and causes it to slightly slip and wear on the shaft.  Eventually, you'll only get smoke at idle and no chuffing smoke.

Here we go.

I will view the youtube videos posted here for more info.

Is there any wick I can buy locally?  A Walmart or Home Depot?

or should I just cut the black part off and move the whiter part to the top?

Just ordered other things from MTH parts.  Want to wait on that route before I spend another $10 on shipping.

The impeller is fitted in firm, looks okay and spins if using needle nose pliers.

YUK!  You need a new wick.

@SteveG posted:

Here we go.

I will view the youtube videos posted here for more info.

Is there any wick I can buy locally?  A Walmart or Home Depot?

or should I just cut the black part off and move the whiter part to the top?

Just ordered other things from MTH parts.  Want to wait on that route before I spend another $10 on shipping.

While not optimal, you can use Tiki Torch wick in a bind.

You could reuse that wick as a last resort if you truly have none handy. Like I said, I carefully remove the wick jammed between the resistors, then fold and fluff to form a little folded "pillow" sitting in the bottom of the smoke cup. I ensure at all costs the little slot rear entry from the fan is not blocked, and then put the PCB back on. This provides a large clean airflow space above the resistors and allows the smoke to rise off of them and then be caught in the outgoing airflow.

Again, first things first, no more wick jammed between the resistors. That creates a hot spot on the resistors and just chars the wick. Not only that, but I've seen brand new engines with no or low smoke output because the wick was blocking most of the airflow from the fan.

You could search for Tiki torch wick but basically you ideally want the soft fiberglass type. Avoid cotton.

@SteveG posted:

The impeller is fitted in firm, looks okay and spins if using needle nose pliers.

Pull it and lube the motor anyway while you have it apart. Being PS2 this is at least 10-15 years old at this point.

Oh yeah, ….that’s yummy looking, ….with a side order of the crunchies,,,,better check those resistors with a meter while you’re right there….

Pat

Replace the wick and measure the resistance of the resistors (should be ~8ohms). If the resistance of the resistors isn't 8ohms replace them while you are in there.

Hi, I live in new jersey and i have the wicks you need 1 if i can help you!

Alan

Thanks Alan.  I'm in Monmouth county.  If you're not close, I will just clean or remove the black part, reposition and reuse the wick. 

The wire leads broke off while I was cleaning the area around the resistors.  Two purple leads.  Does it matter which lead goes to which solder point?

Exactly where did they break off from?  Yes, the colors are important, but I don't recall two purple leads going to the smoke unit.

At the point they solder to the board with the two resistors that look like coils.

I was cleaning the charred area under the resistors and pulled up too hard.

It’s actually a purple and brown wire that broke off those small solder points.

Since it's totally isolated there, they can go on either way.  For other functions, the color matters, just not for the smoke resistors.

Did you measure those resistors with the values mentioned by our esteemed colleague Lou?…nothing more frustrating to do all this work, put it all back together, and no result,……MTH resistors are pretty hardy, but I have seen them take a poop,……

Pat

Also, I am getting 8.5 ohms if I put multimeter to those two solder points, infinity/no change if putting it to each resistor.

i think because they are soldered underneath in parallel.

so I think the resistors are good.

Well, if you're truly getting infinity between any  two resistor connections on the smoke unit, something is seriously wrong!

Well, I re-soldered the two wires connecting the smoke unit.  I removed impeller, checked it, lubed the pin underneath, then put back on and it moved freely both ways.  Cleaned whatever I could to the wick, repositioned it in the chamber like a pillow, left the opening for the fan unobstructed.

Reassembled everything and the smoke is similar to before I started.  I get a little smoke just out of the top, but no chuffing.  Barely any smoke at all, even with MAX smoke on the DCS.

you can test the smoke motor try a 2 vdc voltage source if motor does not start you need a new motor! I have them in stock and wick also! make sure you unplug connect to board, so you don't damage the electronics on the board!

Alan

I don’t have a 2 vdc source.

I guess a 1.5 v AA battery would not work?

Would have to find the leads to disconnect from board.  This might be past my comfort zone.

@SteveG posted:

I don’t have a 2 vdc source.

I guess a 1.5 v AA battery would not work?

Would have to find the leads to disconnect from board.  This might be past my comfort zone.

There was a 2 pin plug to the fan (green and grey) and another to the heater (brown and purple) to remove the smoke unit in the first place.

#1 ensure the wires did not break off the fan motor solder joints. This is one of those more fragile areas of the engine and not much to solder to, coupled with thin wires that can break right at the joint most times.

#2 I test typically with a known half dead 9V battery. I do not advocate testing with a good new 9V battery as this can quickly damage the motor with the higher voltage, but a near dead 9V that has maybe 4-5V and relatively high internal impedance I keep handy works and does not push the motor too hard. I simply unplug the connector, and touch battery to the fan motor solder joint terminals.

Again, do not use a fresh 9V, alternatively 2 1.5V batteries in series is a good test.

A 1.5V battery should spin any properly working smoke fan motor.

In that locomotive, unplugging the 10-pin connector from the frame, one lead of the smoke motor comes directly through the 10-pin tether, so you're isolated for your battery test.

I will try suggestions tomorrow or Friday.

thanks for all the replies!

So I disconnected the 2 pin white connector for the fan and 2 pin red connector for the heater.

do i need to disconnect the 10 pin connector, which I think is mounted on a metal plate just above the middle wheel, or is that only to make it easier to work with?

what do I connect the 1.5v battery to?

does polarity matter?  Am I looking for the impeller to spin?

If you disconnect the 2-pin connector for the fan, you don't have to disconnect anything else unless you want to.  You connect the battery to the two pins on the motor, and polarity doesn't matter, we're just looking for it to spin quietly.

I used one AA battery and took two wires from it to the two solder points on the fan.  Impeller did not move (it was a little difficult to hold the wires to the solder joints and look at impeller at the same time).

Did not hear anything either.  Did same with  two AA batteries in series.  Nothing.

Before I did these tests I made sure I got a proper reading of the two wires so I knew they were contacting the + and - of the battery (batteries).

So impeller/fan = motor.  It must be a bad smoke motor, right?

If 3V didn't move it, it's definitely a bad motor or the impeller is hitting the fan chamber.  Time to take the smoke unit apart and find out what's happening.

Alan did a great job putting in a new smoke fan, wick and wires as the original were brittle.

works great!

the video is at the DCS medium smoke level.