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I am not one to buy diesels but I preorder these thinking they would sure look great pulling my K line 21" UP cars. or even the latest 21 inch Challenger set.  And all I can say is WOW!

Right out of the box they looked great and ran flawless... and they were the right yellow...

here are some pictures : 

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So what are the wins? I felt these were the pluses:

1) Both units are powered

2) Horn(s) and sounds are VERY loud and really nice... 

3) Paint and details are spot on

4) No quality issues- I hope... have not tried the smoke yet

5) Nice super slow speeds with both A units that are perfectly timed together

6) All wheels have flanges, so the truck does not migrate off the head of the rail on O72 radii

7) marker lights are directionally correct

8) The mars lights work but do have a 'different flare' to them

9) Ease of getting things up and running multiple units together. 

Cons:

1)  The B unit is not as free rolling as I thought, even with some mild lubrication on the axels

2) The double crew talk had me miffed

3) Price of the B unit is somewhat very pricey

4) The shells have flag holders but no flags in the box?

5) Why are the front A unit pilots not fixed? 

 

 

Last edited by J Daddy

Sorry for some of the blurry photos. I am going to have to breakout the 21 inch cars tonight and do them right...

Well like I say …sometimes preordering is a gamble, but this release is a hit... and I would not miss out. 

Way to go Ryan and Dave. 

I may have to scrounge some money together quick like to get the Santa Fe units... 

Can anyone post video/ pictures of theirs?

 

 I’m pretty much a steam guy. Pretty much a freight guy also. But I do like Alco’s. I recently purchased both MTH and 3rdRails recent New Haven PA runs. Both are really nice. I probably would give the nod to the 3rd Rail. 4 pickup rollers versus 2 and all wheels are flanged. The sound is also a bit better and you can easily fix the pilots and add Kadee’s.

 After watching this video. If Lionel offers a New Haven version. I’m in trouble. Those sounds are incredible.

 My recent purchases have been pretty much. All Legacy steamers. The one thing I’d like Lionel to upgrade on. Is their cab figures. Never paid much attention to the figures in the diesels. Looking at the cab photo shot. They  are kind of blah as well to put in a great looking and running engine. Surely at the prices everything is going for. Nicer and a bit of variety in crew figures isn’t going to eat into the profits that much.

J Daddy. Enjoy that new engine. It looks to be a keeper.

 

Cons:

2) The double crew talk had me miffed

The Superbass units for the new F3/F7's have a switch to turn off the crew talk.  I would assume your B unit would have the same feature.  Another nice feature is that you can turn off coupler so all units can have the same number.  Nice layout BTW. 

Besides the ID issue I'm having as well I'm loving my UP Alco PAs. Probably the loudest O scale engines I own, and I'm having to turn them down which is unheard of for me.

The only cosmetic issue is that the steps are black on the A units but correctly painted on the B unit. So a little paint job can fix that up quickly.

 

BobbyD posted:
J Daddy posted:

The details are very really nice and a big improvement over the previous release of the UP E6's with black trucks... 

20190617_142347

John, glad you like them, hope you enjoy running them.

Do they all have those huge windshield grab irons? Can the pilot be corrected and moved forward?

 

Yes. The irons actually look cool. Even though they may not be correct . I am going to see if I can convert these to fixed pilots 

J Daddy, I’ve watched your really cool video twice and it’s fun to see the ABA cruse so slowly and steadily (no shaking) over your nicely designed layout. Your trackwork is great, the trestle adds so much realism and seeing the engine on different levels is fantastic.  Your scenery is very nice to, and the structures also add realism. I purchased the newer Legacy/BT F3 ABBA Sante Fe, it had to make a trip back to Lionel for some refinements and they did a great job. The sounds with their new bass units makes a Hugh difference as it’s so real sounding.  Thank you for posting the video of your UP Diesels, and please do some more videos. Hope to see you at York in October...Leapin Larry

 

 

Thank you Leapin Larry! I'm already counting the days until York.

Dave Olson chimed in on another thread about the boards needed to be reprogramed. However, I am trying to determine if ALL the units need to be returned for programing that I have purchased. two seemed to hold their programing so far, but I am not sure. 

 

J Daddy posted:
I noticed too, the spacing is different from the head A unit to B unit... and the B unit to trailing A unit. the one in the picture is the worse case gap. Why the difference, is beyond me.
 

There was discussion about that issue with the last run of Legacy F-3s (probably F-7s) as well. I don't remember the reason, but you could go back and find those threads. Might have been that one end of the B had an electrocoupler which was a different length. Some talked about replacing one of the couplers to even them up.

Breezinup- Agreed, thanks for the reminder. I will take some dimensions today

TD- Thank you for the compliments on the layout. As you can see in the video there was still some major construction going on.

One thing I teach my son is, if something is broke, don't get excited, everything can be fixed, just make sure nobody was hurt!

 

Well today I spent some time root causing the issue. I popped the shell and trace the program switch wires  back to the board. Sometimes wires are not crimped correctly inside their connectors and can cause the issue. 

20190620_094445

I notice the blue wire looked to be on an awkward angle. So I pressed on this wire while programing the new number. And it worked.  I was able to change the address from 1 to 57... problemed solved!... so I thought.  I cycled the power. once, twice, three times... ok … well on the fourth try it revert back to ID no. 1.

 

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Last edited by J Daddy

So I sent a note to Dean at Lionel stating what I found. He confirmed the boards need to be flashed again. I then asked the question will the units that have been successfully change off ID 1 and remembered their ID change will they need to be flashed too? His reply was so far, if they remember them you should be good to go. So only the units that cannot be programed or immediately forget their program need to be returned. 

Next being on good terms with my LHS. I called the owner. Notified that his sets were suspect. I asked if I could test his stock and if I find a replacement for my A unit could I exchange it. He stated sure. So out of the 15 units I tested 6 were not remembering their program. In this case is was the A units. All the B units with super bass worked fine. 

I was lucky enough to find a replacement that seemed to remember its new ID program. So I am going to set up and run tonight and hope for the best.

 

On a much lighter note. Did anyone notice the spring corner steps to allow for tighter radii?

20190620_095434

20190620_095500

 

Note in the top picture. The black screw required tightening and was loose out of the box. You will have to remove the shell in order to do this. I will be removing the ladders later to Paint them grey to match the B unit.

 

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Last edited by J Daddy
J Daddy posted:

So I sent a note to Dean at Lionel stating what I found. He confirmed the boards need to be flashed again. I then asked the question will the units that have been successfully change off ID 1 and remembered their ID change will they need to be flashed too? His reply was so far, if they remember them you should be good to go. So only the units that cannot be programed or immediately forget their program need to be returned. 

I’m not well versed on the “Term” Flashed!  What is all that about, before I purchase one of these!!

Thanks

J Daddy posted:

So I sent a note to Dean at Lionel stating what I found. He confirmed the boards need to be flashed again. I then asked the question will the units that have been successfully change off ID 1 and remembered their ID change will they need to be flashed too? His reply was so far, if they remember them you should be good to go. So only the units that cannot be programed or immediately forget their program need to be returned. 

Depending on the required equipment and time it takes to complete, I wonder if Lionel will consider having a “flash” table at their fall York booth area for both customers & dealers to have their PA’s memory chips re-flashed?  Saves on shipping costs, reduces risk of damage and provides excellent turnaround time.  MTH currently provides dcs TIU/remote updates at their booth.  Remember when MTH also had a repair tent outside the grandstand - was it late 90’s?

Fredstrains posted:

I’m not well versed on the “Term” Flashed!  What is all that about, before I purchase one of these!!

Thanks 

Firmware or BIOS update is the best example. Happens quite a bit on most modern technology like TVs, phones, tablets, however it's mostly transparent to the end user.

This is a constant headache in the automotive world.  Lots of on board modules that talk to each other.  Or just the latest updates required for user interface. Dealerships are plagued with software updates that are required at the time of sale.  If I  buy another set of PA'S at York.  I'm just going to hand them over to Dave or Ryan.

J Daddy posted:

This is a constant headache in the automotive world.  Lots of on board modules that talk to each other.  Or just the latest updates required for user interface. Dealerships are plagued with software updates that are required at the time of sale.  If I  buy another set of PA'S at York.  I'm just going to hand them over to Dave or Ryan.

Since these new Alco's have Bluetooth you would think I could just do the firmware myself from my phone or PC. (HINT LIONEL).

Last edited by BNSF-Matt
breezinup posted:
J Daddy posted:
I noticed too, the spacing is different from the head A unit to B unit... and the B unit to trailing A unit. the one in the picture is the worse case gap. Why the difference, is beyond me.
 

There was discussion about that issue with the last run of Legacy F-3s (probably F-7s) as well. I don't remember the reason, but you could go back and find those threads. Might have been that one end of the B had an electrocoupler which was a different length. Some talked about replacing one of the couplers to even them up.

Didn't they come with a dummy coupler in the box in case you didn't want the 3' gap between units?

J Daddy posted:

Well today I spent some time root causing the issue. I popped the shell and trace the program switch wires  back to the board. Sometimes wires are not crimped correctly inside their connectors and can cause the issue. 

20190620_094445

I notice the blue wire looked to be on an awkward angle. So I pressed on this wire while programing the new number. And it worked.  I was able to change the address from 1 to 57... problemed solved!... so I thought.  I cycled the power. once, twice, three times... ok … well on the fourth try it revert back to ID no. 1.

 

This sounded like bad connection between the Program/Run switch and the board all the time. Not something that required reflashing the memory.

I have seen this problem for other issues like headlights randomly going on and off. Pins not fully inserted into their housings or connectors not fully inserted in the boards. Every wire connection can be a source for failure.

Pete

Norton posted:
J Daddy posted:

Well today I spent some time root causing the issue. I popped the shell and trace the program switch wires  back to the board. Sometimes wires are not crimped correctly inside their connectors and can cause the issue. 

20190620_094445

I notice the blue wire looked to be on an awkward angle. So I pressed on this wire while programing the new number. And it worked.  I was able to change the address from 1 to 57... problemed solved!... so I thought.  I cycled the power. once, twice, three times... ok … well on the fourth try it revert back to ID no. 1.

 

This sounded like bad connection between the Program/Run switch and the board all the time. Not something that required reflashing the memory.

I have seen this problem for other issues like headlights randomly going on and off. Pins not fully inserted into their housings or connectors not fully inserted in the boards. Every wire connection can be a source for failure.

Pete

I was not sure if the run switch circuit needed continuity all the time? 

BobbyD posted:
breezinup posted:
J Daddy posted:
I noticed too, the spacing is different from the head A unit to B unit... and the B unit to trailing A unit. the one in the picture is the worse case gap. Why the difference, is beyond me.
 

There was discussion about that issue with the last run of Legacy F-3s (probably F-7s) as well. I don't remember the reason, but you could go back and find those threads. Might have been that one end of the B had an electrocoupler which was a different length. Some talked about replacing one of the couplers to even them up.

Didn't they come with a dummy coupler in the box in case you didn't want the 3' gap between units?

Nope. I usually use a dummy Weaver coupler cut down to shorten the gap 

 

AmeenTrainGuy posted:
BNSF-Matt posted:
J Daddy posted:

This is a constant headache in the automotive world.  Lots of on board modules that talk to each other.  Or just the latest updates required for user interface. Dealerships are plagued with software updates that are required at the time of sale.  If I  buy another set of PA'S at York.  I'm just going to hand them over to Dave or Ryan.

Since these new Alco's have Bluetooth you would think I could just do the firmware myself from my phone or PC. (HINT LIONEL).

Was about to say this. I am pretty confident Lionel is working on this already. Imagine all the possibilities, changing up sounds, new lighting control, new smoke control, better motor control. Lots of possibilities. I believe MTH is going to jump on that train first though, they do have a history of integrating modern tech into trains first.

Problem is the tool, software, and files to do this is probably all proprietary 

J Daddy posted:
Norton posted:
J Daddy posted:

Well today I spent some time root causing the issue. I popped the shell and trace the program switch wires  back to the board. Sometimes wires are not crimped correctly inside their connectors and can cause the issue. 

20190620_094445

I notice the blue wire looked to be on an awkward angle. So I pressed on this wire while programing the new number. And it worked.  I was able to change the address from 1 to 57... problemed solved!... so I thought.  I cycled the power. once, twice, three times... ok … well on the fourth try it revert back to ID no. 1.

 

This sounded like bad connection between the Program/Run switch and the board all the time. Not something that required reflashing the memory.

I have seen this problem for other issues like headlights randomly going on and off. Pins not fully inserted into their housings or connectors not fully inserted in the boards. Every wire connection can be a source for failure.

Pete

I was not sure if the run switch circuit needed continuity all the time? 

Run is open circuit. The switch has to be closed to program. If there is an open circuit anywhere you will never be in program mode and the engine never accepts a new number.

Pete

J Daddy posted:
BobbyD posted:
breezinup posted:
J Daddy posted:
I noticed too, the spacing is different from the head A unit to B unit... and the B unit to trailing A unit. the one in the picture is the worse case gap. Why the difference, is beyond me.
 

There was discussion about that issue with the last run of Legacy F-3s (probably F-7s) as well. I don't remember the reason, but you could go back and find those threads. Might have been that one end of the B had an electrocoupler which was a different length. Some talked about replacing one of the couplers to even them up.

Didn't they come with a dummy coupler in the box in case you didn't want the 3' gap between units?

Nope. I usually use a dummy Weaver coupler cut down to shorten the gap 

 

Looked in the boxes, all the new ones have a short dummy coupler to replace the long electrocoupler.

BobbyD posted:
J Daddy posted:
BobbyD posted:
breezinup posted:
J Daddy posted:
I noticed too, the spacing is different from the head A unit to B unit... and the B unit to trailing A unit. the one in the picture is the worse case gap. Why the difference, is beyond me.
 

There was discussion about that issue with the last run of Legacy F-3s (probably F-7s) as well. I don't remember the reason, but you could go back and find those threads. Might have been that one end of the B had an electrocoupler which was a different length. Some talked about replacing one of the couplers to even them up.

Didn't they come with a dummy coupler in the box in case you didn't want the 3' gap between units?

Nope. I usually use a dummy Weaver coupler cut down to shorten the gap 

 

Looked in the boxes, all the new ones have a short dummy coupler to replace the long electrocoupler.

Mine is missing.

Norton posted:
J Daddy posted:
Norton posted:
J Daddy posted:

Well today I spent some time root causing the issue. I popped the shell and trace the program switch wires  back to the board. Sometimes wires are not crimped correctly inside their connectors and can cause the issue. 

20190620_094445

I notice the blue wire looked to be on an awkward angle. So I pressed on this wire while programing the new number. And it worked.  I was able to change the address from 1 to 57... problemed solved!... so I thought.  I cycled the power. once, twice, three times... ok … well on the fourth try it revert back to ID no. 1.

 

This sounded like bad connection between the Program/Run switch and the board all the time. Not something that required reflashing the memory.

I have seen this problem for other issues like headlights randomly going on and off. Pins not fully inserted into their housings or connectors not fully inserted in the boards. Every wire connection can be a source for failure.

Pete

I was not sure if the run switch circuit needed continuity all the time? 

Run is open circuit. The switch has to be closed to program. If there is an open circuit anywhere you will never be in program mode and the engine never accepts a new number.

Pete

Good to note. However, after I was able to change the number, after several power off cycles it reverted back to 1. That is when I realized it was not a switch issue. 

So good news. I was able to find another A unit at my LHS and as I was there I tested the existing stock.

I was able to confirm out of the 12 units tested all the units that were able to reassign an ID held their ID. 

About half of them will have to go back. I am on day 3 of running my set and so far so good. 

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