Adventures in TMCC & Legacy... Trying to master the 455Khz track signal. I've built the test car, and it is finally working..

Sorry to laugh at your predicament Elliot but I busted up at the sound of the exasperated sigh when you hit the off switch. Hopefully some of the smart guys (GRJ, RJR, etc.) will weigh in and help get things solved for you.

S

Is it just the TC&W thats trying to run away? What about the others? Will they run properly when addressed?

It could be a weak antenna with the TC&W loco. What make is it?

What version legacy are you running 1.3, 1.4 etc?

That's OK Scott, I went through that exercise 4 times prior to shooting that. At least it was still doing it with the camera on. It was nice to be able to time the duration of the event. Previously, I would just flip the switch, hear the trains moving, and quick flip it off. I didn't have trains as well isolated, so I never left them on long enough to really see what happened.

I still haven't figured out where the track power came from, and then 10 seconds later it goes dead, likre it was supposed to.

What is powering you track to allow it to shut off power at 18 seconds?

Rick, the TC&W is a converted Railking with an ERR board. Matt Makens did the install, and I'm pretty sure he lengthened the antenna when he did it, since he had been doing that to a bunch of other locos for me.

There was another engine that wanted to take off, a little further up that track off camera. That was a Lionmaster SD whatever. That was the engine that was used for the first run around the upper deck, and had signal problems in a few spots in that video. The rest were lights only, but where did any of them get their power?

I may still be on a really version of Legacy, I'll have to run down and look. Why does 1.4 sound familiar?

Are you powering the legacy base and the layout at the same time?

Its recommended that the base be powered first so it can get the signal to the track so the engines don't drop into conventional. Given the massive size of your layout I'd probably power the base up and wait a few seconds to power the track.

Is there some a loco or something "bridging" power from another block? The base shouldn't have anything to do with power to the track.

I'm confused about the power question? If your putting power to the track  most TMCC/legacy locos will have lights that come on.

Only the most recent legacy offerings actually stay completely dark until addressed. 

Since you are able to video and I might say very well, to help solve this problem, just video all your connections from the legacy base to track, transformer and what type of engines you operating (legacy, TMCC or conventional) and show all wiring you have to the wall switches etc. The more detail you can give the better the answers will be to help solve this problem.. 

RickO posted:

Are you powering the legacy base and the layout at the same time?

Its recommended that the base be powered first so it can get the signal to the track so the engines don't drop into conventional.

Is there some a loco or something "bridging" power from another block? The base shouldn't have anything to do with power to the track.

 

I've thought that powering the base first may be the answer. Right now bases and track power up on the same switch. That would mean trying to put the power supplies on a delay circuit.

I don't think there was any possibility of trains bridging power to that track. Those 3 supplies cover just the upper deck. I just rewired the lower deck supplies to minimize the number of transitions. Transitions occur at turnouts, a natural center rail break.

There shouldn't be any power there, that zone was unplugged.

Dale Manquen posted:

What is powering you track to allow it to shut off power at 18 seconds?

Dale, I wish I knew. It was acting as if there was a giant charged capacitor that drained after 10 seconds. But there are no capacitors, and the unplugged cords are in the picture above.

woody posted:

Since you are able to video and I might say very well, to help solve this problem, just video all your connections from the legacy base to track, transformer and what type of engines you operating (legacy, TMCC or conventional) and show all wiring you have to the wall switches etc. The more detail you can give the better the answers will be to help solve this problem.. 

Actually Woody, the stills above do show all the connections. I use the classic single wire from the base. When I just use my TMCC base, everything is fine. I hook up the Legacy, and nothing but trouble. That's why it's been on the shelf for the last 4 years.

There is no conventional possible on this layout. Binary control, on or off, no in between. There are about 30 engines on the rails, wide variety, all diesels except my Challenger. Mostly Lionel, some Atlas, and a few conversions.

I'm  guessing you tried a different wall outlet for the Legacy base power adaptor? 

Well, I briefly saw the cab light blink in the BNSF. Shaky signal. Disconnect the track wire and try a jumper from the track post directly to an outside rail.

it is better to power up the base first. It should go through some startup blinks, then a green light and blue Legacy lit.

What is the power source?

One thing I find odd.  A Legacy or TMCC engine when first powered, if it wakes up in conventional, should just start up in neutral.  I'm not sure why one would be trying to move forward unless power is cycled.

Gregg posted:

I'm  guessing you tried a different wall outlet for the Legacy base power adaptor? 

Actually, I haven't. But I know the outlet is good, because I wired the entire house. Beside, the TMCC base has been working off the same outlet for years.

At this point Rick's suggestion of the time delay between signal power up and track power up seems most plausible. I think I'll pull the other 3 plugs from the second set of supplies. Then everything better stay dark. Then I can selectively power up, and see if I only get lights, no sound, no movement.

MartyE posted:

What is the power source?

One thing I find odd.  A Legacy or TMCC engine when first powered, if it wakes up in conventional, should just start up in neutral.  I'm not sure why one would be trying to move forward unless power is cycled.

If theres no track signal they take off when powered up at 18v

RickO posted:

MartyE posted:

What is the power source?

One thing I find odd.  A Legacy or TMCC engine when first powered, if it wakes up in conventional, should just start up in neutral.  I'm not sure why one would be trying to move forward unless power is cycled.

If theres no track signal they take off when powered up at 18v

It seems I am incorrect.  I guess that is only for the first time on a conventional layout.  It was my understanding they came up in neutral.  My apologies.

There appears to be a lot of possible variables here.  If I am following everything properly, the Legacy System has never worked properly for you.    If this is the case, I would set up a test circle/track with its own power supply and test the legacy system there.   If there is still an issue, I would test another train just to confirm and a different power source.   If there is still an issue, then it would appear to be a problem with Legacy unit.

But if the test circle unit works, I would retest using the primary power outlet used for your layout.

If still good, I would attempt to get a power feed from your primary transformer.

If still good, I would attempt to hook up the 'Y-Cable' only.

If still good, I would attempt to hook up the TMCC Base

With this approach, it will help you identify what works and what cause the system to fail.

Hopefully it turns out to be something simple like a bad connection or "Y-Cable", instead of something with your layout since it looks like you have a complex layout.  But since it worked with your TMCC base, this seams odd.

Two additional test:

If you just hook up the Legacy Base - Leaving the "Y-Cable" and TMCC base disconnected, does that make any difference.

Also you may want to try hooking the TMCC-Base up only - to see if your original configuration still works.

Just my two cents.

OK guys, here's what I found out when I ran downstairs for more testing.

I found two manuals in the file, one for 1.3 the other 1.4. I want to say it came with 1.4, but when I registered it, Lionel sent me the 1.3. If I remember correctly, 1.4 had just come out, and this one had it. So, that's that.

Now for the power situation. I have 6 power supplies located on 2 panels. One on the north side of the room and one on the south side, each with 3, 20A transformers. Actually, they are made up of 3, 6.3V transformers connected in series. This the south panel. The north one is exactly the same.

There are 2, 12 gauge ground wires connecting the panels directly. The command bases are located in the center of the room, away from the power panels. The bases and the power supplies are controlled by a single switch near the entrance to the layout, which you saw in the video.

I unplugged all six supplies, then flipped the power switch. The command bases came on, and I waited about a minute, then I plugged in the first supply on the south side. Trains on that part of the layout were sitting on isolation tracks, and all was quiet. The second supply covered a part of the layout with no trains, still good. The third one, which is contiguous with power districts from the north panel, fired up a bunch of trains, and this after at least 3 minutes of Legacy base power up. I repeated this process on the north panel, trains were flying everywhere. I started to remove the offending engines. I couldn't get to the 10 second threshold without having a disaster. I finally gave up.

Bottom line, it doesn't seem to matter how long the base is powered prior to applying track power. I also know that I have a previously undiscovered and unwanted electrical connection that will have to be found.

All those yellow things don't happen to be Polyfuses that could cause a delayed shutoff as they heat up, are they?

Dale Manquen posted:

All those yellow things don't happen to be Polyfuses that could cause a delayed shutoff as they heat up, are they?

Excellent eye Dale, they are, and that would explain the shutdown after 10 seconds. They are a 6A version, so a few engines running at the same time in one power district would trip them. That's one part of the mystery solved. Thanks, totally slipped my mind. Fresh eyes on the problem really help.

Are you still doing house calls? I'm beginning to lean toward the idea that there may be too much layout for the signal that the base is putting out. Matt Makens took the base home to test it and said it was fine, ran his trains perfectly. I'm dealing with over 3000' of track, and it may just be too much.

BradK posted:

There appears to be a lot of possible variables here.  If I am following everything properly, the Legacy System has never worked properly for you.    If this is the case, I would set up a test circle/track with its own power supply and test the legacy system there.   If there is still an issue, I would test another train just to confirm and a different power source.   If there is still an issue, then it would appear to be a problem with Legacy unit.

But if the test circle unit works, I would retest using the primary power outlet used for your layout.

If still good, I would attempt to get a power feed from your primary transformer.

If still good, I would attempt to hook up the 'Y-Cable' only.

If still good, I would attempt to hook up the TMCC Base

With this approach, it will help you identify what works and what cause the system to fail.

Hopefully it turns out to be something simple like a bad connection or "Y-Cable", instead of something with your layout since it looks like you have a complex layout.  But since it worked with your TMCC base, this seams odd.

Two additional test:

If you just hook up the Legacy Base - Leaving the "Y-Cable" and TMCC base disconnected, does that make any difference.

Also you may want to try hooking the TMCC-Base up only - to see if your original configuration still works.

Just my two cents.

Sorry Brad, somehow I missed your post in the flood of replies. I like your scientific approach here.

Let's consider the test circle passed. As I just mentioned in my reply to Dale, Matt did that test and said it was good. TrainroomGary suggested that I send it to Lionel for repair, but I'm skeptical about that, as I suspect that they too would say it's fine. This has happened with a number of my engines as well, simple track test out fine, my layout crap.

I have never tried Legacy base only. That's an easy one, yank the cable and power up. Going back to TMCC has always worked, that's easy too.

Moonman posted:

Well, I briefly saw the cab light blink in the BNSF. Shaky signal. Disconnect the track wire and try a jumper from the track post directly to an outside rail.

it is better to power up the base first. It should go through some startup blinks, then a green light and blue Legacy lit.

Yeah Carl, I saw that too. I think it was just a result of the TC&W pushing on it. More of an incidental glitch than indicative of a new issue. We both know that I have signal issues under just TMCC on a good day. BTW, I did do a test run this afternoon prior to my Legacy foray, and I have the lower level signal problems pinned down to some specific spots. A glimmer of hope.

It took me a few rereads to get what you had in mind with the ground wire, but I get it now. Interesting, and another easy experiment.

Elliot,

  I find this a very interesting topic........ hope the remedy is located in a short period.  You stated the third power supply on the South panel is contiguous with districts from the North panel, correct?  Just a thought, but with this arrangement between panels, what about any back feed of power between the power supplies of South/North panels and related trackage ?  How much assist would it be should you meter the power feeds from the various power supply circuits and check for spikes, occilations, etc. ?

Just thinking...... sometimes a dangerous thing...!!

Jesse 

Yes Jesse, that's what I'm going to have to hunt down. It shouldn't be too difficult though, because the north and south panels only meet in a couple small spots. I just need to see if the feeders are on the right districts and are not somehow overlapping. Fortunately, I just reorganized the south panel and the north one was done some months back, so now they match my master list. Before I try to delve into diagnostics, a visual inspection may reveal the problem.

The only tool I have is a meter, no scope. Actually, a car with a light may be all the tool I need to find this. Just by plugging in one supply at a time, if there is an overlap, that should expose the location. Very low tech.

I love a good techno-mystery. Just not on my layout. In fact I know that my own layout has "leakage" in places between blocks but fortunately not enough to cause a problem. If it did I would be in a lot of trouble because I neglected to document my layout wiring with a useful schematic. While I know that there are useful on-line tools available for modeling a train layout as a circuit, I would be willing to pay for one that is model train specific. Especially if it had a feature that could estimate signal integrity for DCS and TMCC/Legacy.

It may have something to do with the fact that Legacy requires signal on both outside rails and you have all of yoru outside rails isolated to run the detection circuit and no signal is being transmitted to one rail effectively cutting your signal in half. I used that exact legacy base to successfully run trains on my 16 X 58 layout for a weekend with no issues. try connecting your detection rails to the legacy base and see if it works

That's an interesting theory Matt. I don't know if you ever noticed, but on the entire lower level, I have installed .1u capacitors at all the gaps. Those are specifically to allow the signal through, without actually "polluting" the rail with ground, so it can still be used for detection.

Of course, it was the upper deck where all the chaos occurred. I never installed the caps, because things were running very well under TMCC. That's a big project to go back and solder up all those caps. I'm hoping the solution lies elsewhere.

OK So I'm not totally crazy.  I checked with Rudy who contacted Jon...

He stated that yes the R2LC, R4LC boards do start in FWD after a long power interruption after the initial neutral start up in conventional but the RCMC board will start in neutral after a prolonged power interruption all the time.  This changed was made because of the feedback from this forum.  I have yet to find a manaul though that states this.

Good to know that Marty, but for my purposes, I need to get some signal out to them so they stay put when I turn the layout on.

Marty, What's a RCMP board?   The way I understand it... A TMCC engine will start up in neutral conventional  one time only if it  had been   previously run in command mode.   After that TMCC engines in conventional   always  start in forward but.. what's a RCMP   board.

I only have one outside rail connected to my Legacy 990 system and it works just fine here. I was going to use the other rail for controls and signals as you are doing. Of course your layout and Matt's layout are much, much larger. Mine is only 6'x16' with 2 loops of Atlas track and some spurs & sidings. It was wired for DCS, Legacy was added later by connecting just the one wire to my TIU output commons. Probably not much help here, but just thought I would mention it. Wish I had more to offer in the way of better help.

Scope the output of your Legacy base and make sure youre getting the full 1 volt sine wave. I think I was supposed to do that

I think I might grab  an  Old Lionel transformer,Legacy base & cab-2 . 2 sections of track,  a engine and test at the workbench or upstairs.    Everything else off.

Matt Makens posted:

Scope the output of your Legacy base and make sure youre getting the full 1 volt sine wave. I think I was supposed to do that

Yep dude, you're the one with the scope. I ain't got one, and I'm not sure I would know how to use it anyway.

full 1 volt sine wave  ???

I see 6.3V peak-to-peak for my Legacy Base with no load on the Track output.

Gregg posted:

Marty, What's a RCMP board? 

It's the new Legacy electronics package, but it's an RCMC.

Elliot,

   Hay buddy are you running DCS also or just TMCC/Legacy?  If you are running DCS also simply connect the Legacy drop to the out Black Channels on the TIU and make sure you use the opposite outside rail for, your main Legacy drop.  My Multi level layout runs perfectly using Marty F's technique for Legacy/DCS, I know your layout is a lot bigger, but it's worth a try.

PCRR/Dave 

Sorry Dave, no DCS. 100% TMCC.

OK guys, I've done a few of the tests you suggested.

The Rick test: power base, then wait to power track     fail

The Brad test: straight Legacy, no "Y" cable       fail

The Carl test: straight Legacy, "U" post direct to rail      fail

The Carl test, Matt variation: "U" post direct to rail with both outside rails tied together     fail

The more I try things, the more I'm leaning toward Dale's diagnosis of a weak output on the base. Although, some of these tests were done with the engine in close proximity to the Legacy signal source. Is it possible that I have something near the base interfering with the signal?

With a layout your size, I think you need a spare base, that would answer that question.

What about the "ghost power" thing?  This anomaly doesn't occur with the TMCC base?

That's an interesting point Rick. When I was just running TMCC, everything seemed fine, and all six supplies were plugged in. This Legacy testing exposed the wiring problem when I tried to selectively disable sections of the layout. At least two supplies are bridged, one north and one south. I'll do my "witch hunt" later. I'll look over my master list and try to narrow down the search. I don't think it will be too hard to find.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

With a layout your size, I think you need a spare base, that would answer that question.

I agree. Or the kitchen table test  ...  Track, base, remote , engine ,power supply.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

With a layout your size, I think you need a spare base, that would answer that question.

I have a spare TMCC base. I'm just not sure I need another $300 door stop. Legacy ain't worth $600 to me.

As stated earlier, I have already established that his Legacy base works by connecting to my layout and running trains for an entire weekend with ZERO problems

Yes Matt, but there may be a complexity factor or something environmental that you can't replicate on your layout. As I said before, I have engines that work fine when tested elsewhere, that don't work on my layout. You should know that better than anyone.

The fact that you had it working, leads me to believe that it could be where I have it mounted. Something is killing the signal.

Dale Manquen posted:

full 1 volt sine wave  ???

I see 6.3V peak-to-peak for my Legacy Base with no load on the Track output.

Yes, my base(s) have about 6 volts pp as well. Is it possible that on some layouts, at reduced output will function flawlessly and not work well on perhaps more extensive layouts. Or not on layouts with quite different environments? I have seen bases with low output around just less than 1 volt pp that were probablimatic and needed to be sent in for repair.

Disclaimer: Not an EE, in no way am I nearly as qualified as the folks who have already responded.

My $0.02 is: My dad (Nuclear Physicist) always told me that whenever something is "screwy" with your electrical circuit (trailer lights for the boat, Legacy signals ?), look for some kind of ground/common fault. I have always found this to be true.

So I mean no disrespect when I ask: Is "common" common throughout (For instance, is the TMCC "common" the same as the Legacy "common" for power, etc.)? I have had a lot of wiring issues with common (much smaller layout [who's isn't!] but three loop layout) and still had switches work, etc. It just seemed that there was always "a place that things didn't work well" which, ultimately, I traced to not have common wires "common" (i.e. "ground").

Just trying to help...

Bruce

By the way, Big Boy 4005, your layout is FABULOUS!! I hope it will be able to run Legacy.

Bruce

Thank you Bruce.

Regarding the "common" none taken. The connection wire that I used is the same one that has been on my TMCC base for years. I just moved it over to the Legacy base, per Lionel's instructions. It goes out to the network of ground buses and track feeders.

If there's one thing I do have, it's feeders! Every 3' section of GarGraves track has a ground, a hot, and on the mainline only a detection wire. Non-mainline track has both outside rails tied to ground (no detection). The hots and grounds are tied to 12 gauge buses, and go back to the two power panels. There are two 12 gauge ground wires that just tie the two panels together and keep all six supplies on exactly the same ground.

I don't know if it is possible to have too many feeders. If it is, I might.

If TMCC base works fine. And the Legacy base appears to work fine on another layout. Bruce's comment on a ground fault is worth looking at.

Try using your Legacy set plugged into your normal layout power point. Then just try a short length of track seperate from the layout with a power supply  and one engine and see if it works correctly. If not try on another power outlet.

I recently had a issue with LCS which appears to have been due to a fault within my Legacy base. This sort of thing can be tricky to diagnose. I also had a ground fault from a Hellgate Bridge.

Maybe Lionel need to look adding a diagnostic aspect to the LSU software. So you could plug in a serial/USB cable into your PC and the software would test all the outputs were correct and everything is operating correctly. 

Nick

Elliot,

Referring to the comments concerning grounding, and having/not having, too many feeders.  I worked in club/large concert PA and Sound productions for years in the 70s.  One problem we came across at times was a "ground loop".  With this, as it sounds, a completed loop of grounding, there is a tendency for picking up of RFI.. Radio Frequency Interference.  In the business of sound reinforcement it caused severe feedback and the introduction of stray radio signals from Citizens bands, short wave, intercom systems, etc. over the stages PA systems.  Perhaps such a type of ground loop is produced within your layout wiring, and it is interfering with the signals to/from the Legacy base.

Any thoughts or comments?

Jesse

MOKATX and Harty Beatris RR

texastrain posted:

Elliot,

Referring to the comments concerning grounding, and having/not having, too many feeders.  I worked in club/large concert PA and Sound productions for years in the 70s.  One problem we came across at times was a "ground loop".  With this, as it sounds, a completed loop of grounding, there is a tendency for picking up of RFI.. Radio Frequency Interference.  In the business of sound reinforcement it caused severe feedback and the introduction of stray radio signals from Citizens bands, short wave, intercom systems, etc. over the stages PA systems.  Perhaps such a type of ground loop is produced within your layout wiring, and it is interfering with the signals to/from the Legacy base.

Any thoughts or comments?

Jesse

MOKATX and Harty Beatris RR

 

 

 

A few years ago, there was some talk about wifi interfering with the Legacy base signal and changing channel #'s might help.

cjack posted:

A few years ago, there was some talk about wifi interfering with the Legacy base signal and changing channel #'s might help.

That would only affect the CAB2 to base communication, I can't imagine it affecting the track signal.  The gulf between 455khz and 2.4ghz is vast!

OK .the Legacy works  at a friends layout.   You guys in the same town or hydro area?

 If both the legacy base & TMCC base are joined by a Y connection only one "U" connection    to the track    cab be used.          

In the pics   it looks like the " U on the legacy base is connected,,, Why not trying disconnecting it and try the command base  U connection.   fail?

Gregg posted:

OK .the Legacy works  at a friends layout.   You guys in the same town or hydro area?

 If both the legacy base & TMCC base are joined by a Y connection only one "U" connection    to the track    cab be used.          

In the pics   it looks like the " U on the legacy base is connected,,, Why not trying disconnecting it and try the command base  U connection.   fail?

Doesn't work that way. You need to use the Legacy base as the track signal. Legacy base does not communicate with the Cab 1 base. The Cab 1 base sends commands to the Legacy base. 

Thanks Marty. .I was trying to think back  when  DCS , Legacy & TMCC were  all hooked up together.   . ( FAIL)

I HAVE FOUND THE ELECTRICAL BRIDGE. After mulling over my power district list, I concluded there was only one place to look. Districts for the north and south supplies touch there. There's a switch at the top of the big helix. This one happened to be a Ross Ready with all the center rail segments bridged together. Usually I cut those off for mainline switches, but obviously I missed this one. I'll get the Dremel and cut the two pins on the frog end, because I can't get under it to clip the bridge. That will separate the three districts and the two supplies. MYSTERY SOLVED!

There could be a lot of ground feedback loops, especially on the main level, where I'm having TMCC problems. When I wired the upper level, I just ran a single ground wire all the way around. I have good signal up there. My only concern is potentially over loading the 12 gauge wire by having it serve too many districts.

I was pulling the 1 volt out of thin air, I thought I remembered it Bing that but even after saying it it sounded wrong

I'll scope mine tmorrow at work 

Matt Makens posted:

I'll scope mine tmorrow at work 

That sounds like a good idea.

I'll start looking for ground loops. That could take a while. When you're ready, give me a call.

An ampacity chart that I use rates 12awg stranded at 9.3 amps per 1000 feet for power transmission and 47 amps for chassis wiring. Your not power transmission at the constant full load. So, when you can test a big load, you could do the feel test for warm.

ampacity chart that I use rates 12awg stranded at 9.3 amps per 1000 feet for power transmission

This statement is incomplete.  You must tell us the nominal voltage and the percent of allowable drop.  Wire size vs. voltage drop tables are typically for 2% drop of some nominal voltage, and they are usually for a complete out-and-back pair of conductors.  For your example, for a 1000 foot loop your voltage would need to be 1500V to have a 2% drop.

Maybe the easiest way to deal with this whole ground business is to use one 12 gauge wire for all the districts on one supply. This will divide the layout into six reasonable zones. Since each supply can only deliver 20 A anyway, the wire would be appropriately sized. If you break it down in terms of trains, at 2 A load per engine (I use almost all can motors) that works out to up to ten engines per supply. I don't use multiple engines on a train, so we could be talking up to 60 trains layout wide. Trust me, that will never happen! Maybe 20 at the absolute max moving at any one time.

I'm afraid I don't have anything to offer that has not already been suggested by others at this point.

You have a fantastic layout, Elliot, and I do hope you can get the legacy base sorted out.  Others that have already chimed in would know a lot better than I, but my only thought is that there is some sort of load on the legacy signal grounding it out somewhere.  For those that know more than I do, does the Legacy base and TMCC base use the same output circuit, or is it possible that the TMCC signal is more powerful and can overcome a medium resistance connection to earth ground?

By the way, I love the idea of using the 6v transformers in series.  

JGL

Dale Manquen posted:

ampacity chart that I use rates 12awg stranded at 9.3 amps per 1000 feet for power transmission

This statement is incomplete.  You must tell us the nominal voltage and the percent of allowable drop.  Wire size vs. voltage drop tables are typically for 2% drop of some nominal voltage, and they are usually for a complete out-and-back pair of conductors.  For your example, for a 1000 foot loop your voltage would need to be 1500V to have a 2% drop.

Dale, I realize that now. I grabbed the chart from a manufacturer's site some time ago. I assume that this is referencing the load carrying ability before wire or insulation failure. I was originally concerned with trying to find some safety points of reference.

It seems to me that the distances needed to have a noticeable voltage drop for 12 AWG aren't found on most home layouts. It could be possible on Elliot's layout, but he has created multiple power divisions. I would not expect a voltage drop on his layout.

I was responding to his recent comment of concern  if the 12 AWG would be large enough.

I just tested my Legacy command base, curiously the voltage output was actually greater connected to the tracks than open circuit.  5.64VPP open circuit and 6.20VPP connected to the track.  There is only about 100 feet of track connected, not quite like the layout in question, but that seems to suggest what you should see as an output signal.  The ground for the 'scope was connected to the same power strip ground connection as the command base power brick.

Command base not connected to track, 5.64 VPP

Command base connected to track, 6.22 VPP

The TMCC Base had just a series coupling capacitor feeding the output, but the Legacy Base has additional inductor and capacitor components at that point.  I don't know if they are to help things going out or to filter things from coming back in.  Might be cutting down the digital trash from the internal clocked circuits, or not.  Anyway, they do seem to interact with the load's reactance.

 How    are things now?  Does legacy work anywhere? or same old ?

Gregg posted:

 How    are things now?  Does legacy work anywhere? or same old ?

 

My helper Joe was over yesterday, so we worked on other things. Nothing has changed, except I located the electrical bridge as I mentioned in a previous post.

When I go downstairs later, I think I'm going to back to straight TMCC, while I try to simplify my ground wiring.

I ordered Dale's signal strength meter, which should be here Monday.  At this point, I would love to perfect the TMCC signal, then I can revisit the Legacy base after that. I'm afraid that thing is going back on the shelf for a while.

That said, please feel free to continue this discussion, I'll be listening, and others may find useful ideas here.

THANKS GUYS!!! THIS IS WHAT MAKES THIS FORUM SO GREAT.

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

Gregg posted:

 How    are things now?  Does legacy work anywhere? or same old ?

 

My helper Joe was over yesterday, so we worked on other things. Nothing has changed, except I located the electrical bridge as I mentioned in a previous post.

When I go downstairs later, I think I'm going to back to straight TMCC, while I try to simplify my ground wiring.

I ordered Dale's signal strength meter, which should be here Monday.  At this point, I would love to perfect the TMCC signal, then I can revisit the Legacy base after that. I'm afraid that thing is going back on the shelf for a while.

That said, please feel free to continue this discussion, I'll be listening, and others may find useful ideas here.

THANKS GUYS!!! THIS IS WHAT MAKES THIS FORUM SO GREAT.

I may have missed it, have you tried another Legacy base?

This has been a great thread and I wanted to thank big boy 005 for explaining the problem and  the things he and others have tried to get the problem fixed.. Not fixed yet but I suspect if we stayed turned,  we'll get the the final outcome.  this type  of thread helps all of us eventually.

At this point it might be a good idea to set up lodging faor Dale M. and invite him to spend some time with you getting to the root of the problem

Rick, we have a guest room.

BobbyD, no you didn't miss anything. There's no second Legacy base. It was just GunrunnerJohn's suggestion that I get one. I only know one person around here that has one, but I'm not sure if he'd be willing to bring it over. We'll see.

Hope you get this sorted Elliot. 

I eventually got to the bottom of my Legacy/LCS issues with a lot of help from Jon Z. 

I had the same problem, no one else nearby with another Legacy set to compare it to. My set is at Lionel for repair.

Stick with it and let us know how you get on

Nick

Have you considered just making a loop of track  on the floor and confirming if the base and remote works on that isolated loop?

John, Matt tried my base on his layout and said it worked, and I believe him. I consider that loop test done and the unit passed. That being the case, the problem must be with my layout wiring, or the environment in the train room. The only other possibility that makes any sense would be a weak output level from the base.

One thing that I may not have mentioned in this conversation, though I have said it before elsewhere, to me Legacy is just the frosting on the cake. The cake is still TMCC. I only bought Legacy to access the extra features on my Milwaukee Road S-3. For the purposes of normal operations, TMCC does everything I need, speed, direction, couplers, and turning the volume down or off.

This does not mean that I don't want to get to the bottom of this. It just means that it isn't a high priority, as was demonstrated by my setting it aside for almost four years after my first attempt to set it up when I bought it.

So, TMCC base works with your layout, but Legacy does not. I wonder how a Legacy 1L base would do? Does anybody nearby have one to test that theory?  Just typing out loud, here.

Can somebody open the base and check all the connections?

Andrew

Personally, I'd opt to test the TMCC first, then a different Legacy base.  My guess is if the TMCC works, the Legacy base is broken. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Personally, I'd opt to test the TMCC first, then a different Legacy base.  My guess is if the TMCC works, the Legacy base is broken. 

Yes, logically speaking, that makes sense, but he said that Matt already tested the Legacy w/ no problems........

Just one of those weird anomalies that can happen w/ complex electrical systems.

I think you miss my point, that test is insufficient. I suspect the layouts are quite different, and I've seen weak Legacy bases run a layout, but just have signal issues.  With the amount of track that Elliot has, he needs a strong signal, and maybe more.  The true test is a different base entirely running it.  It will be even more imperative to try if the TMCC base works better, the signal from the TMCC base is typically less amplitude than my measured Legacy signal.

I measured two of my TMCC command bases, they had 4.9 VPP and 5.1 VPP outputs when connected to the same track as my Legacy measured over six volts.

We will see how much output Elliot measures on both Bases when my meter arrives.  I expect it to arrive Saturday.  In the meantime, he could scan the room with a portable AM radio and check for any low-resistance bridges between the track Common and earth ground (which would short out the command signal.)

That will be interesting information Dale.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I think you miss my point, that test is insufficient. I suspect the layouts are quite different, and I've seen weak Legacy bases run a layout, but just have signal issues.  With the amount of track that Elliot has, he needs a strong signal, and maybe more.  The true test is a different base entirely running it.  It will be even more imperative to try if the TMCC base works better, the signal from the TMCC base is typically less amplitude than my measured Legacy signal.

Ah, I see, thank you for clarifying. I didn't realize that signal output could vary that much from one legacy base to another. I figured if it works, it works the same as all the other Legacy bases. 

Here's where we stand: the Legacy base has been disconnected and TMCC has been restored. The electrical bridge has been removed. All power supplies are plugged back in, and all engines wake up at rest. I was just under one section of the layout, and can see potential trouble spots in the ground bus. Those will have to be modified.

Dale, I think I might have an old AM radio around here, just gotta find it. HAHAHA. I thought I saw the instructions on your website, correct? There may be a lot of issues discovered as the room is laced with earth ground sources, and many locations have insulated track ground wires passing in close proximity to them.

GRJohn, I totally agree with your plan to proceed. When I have dealt with as many of the wiring issues as possible, we can reevaluate the TMCC signal. That's when it might be time to go for the signal amplifier. In the meantime, I have a lot of work to do.

Penn-Pacific posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I think you miss my point, that test is insufficient. I suspect the layouts are quite different, and I've seen weak Legacy bases run a layout, but just have signal issues.  With the amount of track that Elliot has, he needs a strong signal, and maybe more.  The true test is a different base entirely running it.  It will be even more imperative to try if the TMCC base works better, the signal from the TMCC base is typically less amplitude than my measured Legacy signal.

Ah, I see, thank you for clarifying. I didn't realize that signal output could vary that much from one legacy base to another. I figured if it works, it works the same as all the other Legacy bases. 

Well that's the thing, it's not right if the signal is quite less than about 6 vac. But it's not uncommon for some of the bases to have low (broken) output. Something like 1 vac is what I've seen on a couple Legacy bases. They were sent back to Lionel and were repaired.

I suppose Legacy has the same 1 base only  rule as  TMCC ?

Gregg posted:

I suppose Legacy has the same 1 base only  rule as  TMCC ?

Per layout? I believe so. That could get really confusing.

Perhaps a simple test is in order. Connect track wire and power only the Legacy base.  Then apply track power. That would rule out a bad Y cable and add credence/ or disprove a low signal Legacy base. It worked fine for Matt as a standalone.

It appears in all of your tests, the TMCC base was connected with the Y cable.

Sorry Carl, I did that test yesterday without the "Y" cable. It didn't work.

Gregg posted:

I suppose Legacy has the same 1 base only  rule as  TMCC ?

Most certainly!  More than one Legacy/TMCC base connected to the rails will make it certain nothing will run right!

This would make for a very good reality TV series. Like Goldrush on the Discovery Channel only with smart people.

OK guys, I decided to do one last set of tests. This was intended to be very thorough.

This is my outlet tester.

When the yellow and white lights go on, the wiring including the ground is correct.

This is the switched outlet under the layout into which the Legacy base gets plugged. The other plug is the TMCC base.

Here we have a good test.

My Legacy wall wart.

Plug undamaged.

Good wall wart in good outlet.

This is the location I have chosen to permanently place both bases.

This outlet is one in a long chain that goes around the aisles of the layout. It is on a different circuit from the switched one that the bases are plugged into. I plugged my small transformer into this one for the test.

The disconnected "Y" cable.

Both bases powered up, but not connected.

The test lead is attached to the U post on the Legacy base.

My test track for this experiment.

A small transformer, borrowed from my workbench.

A random engine grabbed from the layout. Note the brown wire tying the outside rails together.

Power up, lights on no movement. Matt was correct, the base works.

Now the "Y" cable is connected.

And now the TMCC base is part of the system.

Drum roll please!!!! And yes, that is a Cab-1 doing the work!

It still doesn't work on the layout, but there's no denying that it does work.

That was some nice low speed operation. I'm starting to see what I've been missing out on.

Elliot,

That was a good experiment. One thing I have noticed is the electrical outlet.

Is that metal conduit and electrical outlet boxes?

I take it they are wired like they would be here in the UK i.e. The metal conduit and boxes connected in to the Earth ground? 

It might be worth repeating the experiment with the Bases powered from another supply. Ideally original house outlet in the wall. 

Nick

Here in the US, the metal conduit can be used as the earth ground for the circuit. There is no separate conductor inside, just a hot (black) and a neutral (white) wire. The only time a green wire is required in metal, is inside flexible conduit.

None of the house voltage that attached to the layout is hard wired to the house. Instead, there is a bank of dedicated outlets where the various systems plug into, using a properly sized cord and plug. Then the first metal box has the ground wire bonded to it, sending the ground through the entire system.

I think we can forgo that alternate outlet test, since this is the location where I want and need it to work, and it does. I did think of one additional test that I should do. That is the simultaneous base and track power up test. There remains some confusion as to whether the base needs to be powered first in order to gain control of the track.

It's 2:30 AM over here. Time for bed. Enjoy your day Nick.

Fresh look in the morning, get some shut eye.

Just on my second cup of coffee nearly 09:00 here LOL.

Why I mentioned the metal conduit is that as I understand TMCC/Legacy is this will become a antenna for one half of the signal. I see it runs right above your tracks.

My thought is this might cause a issue. I think you can have to good a signal or if the wrong bare wire touches that conduit it will kill the signal. 

Anyway I am definitely not a expert.

Maybe the other guys who have more knowledge will chip in.

Nick

Elliot,

Nick hit upon the other half of the signal. I had to go back to the beginning of your journey (2012-2013) posts to see the train room and the tables at the start.

All of the layout power and lighting wiring is in conduit.  Did you do the same for all of the fluorescent ceiling fixtures?

If yes, you have 1/2 of signal circuit missing or blocked and using only the wiring in the walls.

Elliot,  try repeating your separate transformer test but with the Legacy base connected to the layout instead of the test piece of Gargraves track.  Turn on the base power (this should send signal to outside rails of the track and to your conduit) then apply power to the test track from the small transformer using the alligator clips.  The locomotive should run under Legacy control since the radio signal will fill the room.  If it doesn't then the signal is being degraded somewhere in the layout or conduit wiring.

If my TMCC base power is turned on (with the base connected to the layout), I can run TMCC locos in command mode on my work table or in my paint booth using a small transformer and alligator clips.

One "final" test, though I suspect it will pass.  The ground prong of the Legacy base should be connected to the outside barrel of the power output plug of the brick.  I've actually seen this be bad on a TMCC brick.