All that time converting all those engines as opposed to spending dozens of hours trouble shooting the issue, dozens more hours researching the solution and then dozens more hours implementing the solution that may or may not work.

FROM THE WEBMASTER:
PERSONAL AND UNCALLED FOR STATEMENT EDITED OUT. Matt, keep your personal opinions about Elliot to yourself. This is not the place...

That was a factual statement, not a personal opinion

No offense Matt, but suggesting a wholesale conversion to DCC is a pretty lame suggestion.

Besides Big boy 005 is eventually  going to get to the bottom of it.  . 

Maybe not today but shortly.

Elliot, With all the great work I see in your layout, I'd like to see you pull that base apart, tighten that nut and hopefully put this to rest. I did this for a friend after reading about this on the forum and it fixed his signal problem. I then sent the system in because the pulsing blue light quit and Lionel fixed it for free with no questions asked and no receipt. Watch for the loose parts though. I'd like to see you get all you can out of that beautiful layout!

gunrunnerjohn posted:

No offense Matt, but suggesting a wholesale conversion to DCC is a pretty lame suggestion.

I got the impression after reading Matt's first post was that he was saying from the outset he would have used DCC. I agree with that but suggesting to convert 50+ locomotives is definitely out there in my humble opinion. No offense Matt. At this point Elliot has to stay the course and hopefully he can get the system to work. I had similar problems when I had a 3 rail layout in the early 2000s. It was very frustrating. DCC has its cons too but if you have power you have the signal. That's what I like best about DCC. 

Good luck Elliot. I wish you the best in figuring this thing out. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The car comes from the NJ-HR club, and they used it to sort out their signal issues.  I recall them saying when the signal was in the 40's, everything was great.  When the signal dropped down past about 30 and lower, the wheels started to fall off.  Bob De Guarde or Chris Lord at the NJ-HR are the folks to talk to, they were intimately involved in sorting out the signal issues there.

40 millivolts ac?

Thanks John. As you probably know Matt and I go back a ways, as he had been helping me with the layout. I don't really recall him suggesting DCC, but he probably did, and it just went in one ear and out the other. It tends to register better in writing, as in "send me a memo". You're right, it's not particularly constructive or on topic for this discussion.

For the record, I'm in my mid 50's, my health isn't the greatest, but I am financially stable. There are even more reasons that I don't do traditional work, but those are enough. There was a time when I did work for a living, but those days are behind me. I consider this layout my work, and after a 6 year hiatus, I am trying to reestablish some kind of a work ethic.

One thing I would like to point out here is, that I owned almost every one of those locomotives before I even met Matt. His suggestion no matter when he made it, was already after the fact.

Some of us grew up with Lionel. That in itself is enough reason. While it may present itself to be a difficult approach to large layouts, that can also be more interesting. A lot of what I like about model trains is the getting ready to run them more than running them.

I was unaware that you planned to use computer control, Elliot, and am very interested to see what you'll be doing.  I fully agree that the inability to talk to DCS from the outside world is a major drawback in the system.  I think one could probably get in through the back door now, with the wifi control module, but I'm not sure how much of that protocol is open to third parties at this time either.  As for DCC, it seems a fairly good system from what little I know, but I don't see much point in converting everything to DCC from TMCC.  Since it seems that the TMCC base works pretty well, I think the legacy problems will get sorted out eventually.  

As far as signal issues with TMCC, I think such a large and complex layout is bringing up things that were simply not tested for in the design of the system.  I wonder if the folks that are a bit more knowledgable about the system could input on the possibility of designing a signal amplifier, not just for the track side output but that boosts the ground plane side as well?  The idea that GRJ suggested that the amount of track causing capacitance issues seems plausible to me and I wonder if this could be overcome by boosting the output stage of the Legacy base? 

JGL

take that thing apart and see if it is loose   Love the layout wish I had the space for it 2200 sq ft sweet!!!!

I believe the signal is DC on the output.  From the data sheet, Meter Drive Output (pin 13)

Looks like for stronger signals it can be up in the 2-3 VDC range.

GRJ, isn't that Meter Drive voltage after converting the RSSI current output to a voltage with a 51K resistor load in parallel with a .1 uF capacitor?

Correct Dale, my point was simply that it was a DC measurement when you look at it.  Their sample application does have the resistor and cap.

Great news!!

The base is working. What would normally take most of you guys 15-20 minutes, took me more than an hour, but I got it. Yes the nut was totally loose. Of course as I was putting it back together, one of the wires broke on the charger switch, so I soldered that back on. Thanks for the hint about the button. That saved me some headaches.

Dale, the numbers are in: 1982 no load and 976 with the layout connected. I think we have a winner!!!!

With this resolved, I can move on to track debugging which should be a little more academic. I know that if I place a wire above the track, it will work. The trick is to get the signal without making it ugly. And no, I don't run electrics so please don't say catenary.

Chuck, I totally agree that the challenge is part of the fun here. On my left forearm I have a tattoo that says " NOTHING IS EASY". If it was everyone would do it. There is a real sense of accomplishment when we can make things work, and maybe more so when we test the theoretical limits of an engineered product.

There will be more challenges with this railroad, I have no doubt of that.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I believe the signal is DC on the output.  From the data sheet, Meter Drive Output (pin 13)

Looks like for stronger signals it can be up in the 2-3 VDC range.

I thought that pin 13 was a front light...

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

Great news!!

The base is working. What would normally take most of you guys 15-20 minutes, took me more than an hour, but I got it. Yes the nut was totally loose. Of course as I was putting it back together, one of the wires broke on the charger switch, so I soldered that back on. Thanks for the hint about the button. That saved me some headaches.

Dale, the numbers are in: 1982 no load and 976 with the layout connected. I think we have a winner!!!!

With this resolved, I can move on to track debugging which should be a little more academic. I know that if I place a wire above the track, it will work. The trick is to get the signal without making it ugly. And no, I don't run electrics so please don't say catenary.

Chuck, I totally agree that the challenge is part of the fun here. On my left forearm I have a tattoo that says " NOTHING IS EASY". If it was everyone would do it. There is a real sense of accomplishment when we can make things work, and maybe more so when we test the theoretical limits of an engineered product.

There will be more challenges with this railroad, I have no doubt of that.

Telephone or power poles for the ground wire?

Pin 13 on the receiver IC chip, not the R2LC board connector. 

I've thought of poles, I'm not sure what kind of lateral reach the signal would have, ie how many tracks can one wire cover.

I just added this structure yesterday. It runs right down the middle of a trouble spot. It will be very easy to add a wire here. The trick with poles is keeping them out of the way, so they aren't getting snagged.

Dale Manquen posted:

Pin 13 on the receiver IC chip, not the R2LC board connector. 

Ok thanks. Pin 13 to 51K and .1uF in parallel to com. Then bring it out with an unused vacant pin on the R2LC. Should be a fun signal strength car to make.

Elliot, wonderful news.  The drama has been resolved, at least partially.

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

I've thought of poles, I'm not sure what kind of lateral reach the signal would have, ie how many tracks can one wire cover.

I just added this structure yesterday. It runs right down the middle of a trouble spot. It will be very easy to add a wire here. The trick with poles is keeping them out of the way, so they aren't getting snagged.

 

Before you do a lot of work, I would try a wire along the top of the wall on the right...just to see.

Now you're reading my mind Chuck. That wall is right down the middle of 6 parallel tracks. The foam bluff, yet to be built, will cover it perfectly. It will be a good test. See if one wire will reach all 6 tracks. Fingers crossed.

One ground wire covers quite a wide space as  rule.  It's likely that one wire sort of centered on the tracks will do the trick.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

One ground wire covers quite a wide space as  rule.  It's likely that one wire sort of centered on the tracks will do the trick.

Excellent John! One down about ten to go. I'll try to be creative about it.

Personally, I don't think the situation is as bleak as others would portray it.

Mike Reagans TMCC/ Legacy signal video  recommends running the ground wire along the tracks, between parallel tracks. Go to 12:40 on this video https://youtu.be/UQ-hiIvPxVs

Earlier in the video it discusses the signal interference of over and under trackage

I'm under the impression your chicken wire keeps the lower level from interfering with the upper, but it doesn't solve the parallel tracks ground plane issue.

I'm no expert, just "cobbling together" information I've gathered from other sources.

Love your layout.

Good Luck, John 

I new it was the base. Great find. And now you can get back to the layout! 

NYC,SUBWAY TRANSIT SIGNAL posted:

Love your layout.

Good Luck, John 

Thank you John. I do love the NYC subways. Last time we were there, we did some serious riding. What I'm modeling is Minnesota local.

Rick, I have those wires throughout both hidden yards, as well as along some of the mainline on the lower level. I need to revisit those, because some seem less effective than others.

I have seen Mike's video many times, just not recently. I think I've found that a wire placed higher rather than lower, works better. One of the things that that was supposed to combat was conflicting signals from parallel tracks of different lengths. I really don't have situations like that, because every section of the layout shares the same ground wire, so there is only a single signal on all parallel tracks. It seems like it's more about the antennas finding the airborne component, which is why the higher wires seem more effective.

I'll keep working on it.

Very glad you got the legacy base sorted out, Elliot.  This has really been a great thread with lots of knowledgable people sharing their experience and wisdom.  Thoroughly enjoyable to follow along.  I'm looking forward to seeing how the signal issues are solved.  

For clarification, you have chicken wire laid out under the plywood on the upper level, and that level is working without issue, but on the lower level, up to this point you have only the conduit of the 120VAC lines acting as a ground plane source?  I understand that an overhead wire is probably the best solution to provide the strongest signal, but have you tried perhaps stapling some chicken wire to the underside of the layout in the trouble areas? (or perhaps using spray glue and aluminum foil?) My brain is thinking if it works in one level, it may provide enough signal in others.  Then again, it may be that with six parallel tracks the track signal side will wash out the ground plane side with it radiating from below.  Again, just tossing out ideas to which more experienced folks may already know the answers.  

JGL

Nice job Elliot. Glad you got the main problem sorted

Nick

Thank you Nick. Patience and persistence are the words of the day. There were those who just said send it in. I'm glad I toughed it out a bit. If you look back on page 4, near the middle, that's where the diagnosis came together. After that, the surgery was easy. This has been a fun topic, getting a lot of people involved, and thinking out in the open.

This isn't the end of the story though. There's a lot more to be done to get everything running smoothly. I just ordered a cheap AM radio off eBay to do one of Dale's tests. Should be here next week. 

Thanks JGL. I was actually thinking about adding some ground plane material under there to see if it helped. The nice part about the upper deck was it was built in during construction. Retrofitting is a pain, because all the wires and Tortoises are in the way now. 

Have you ever seen a picture of the small helix? Best signal anywhere on the layout, because I lined it with foil, and built the ground plane in. The big helix was recently retrofitted with a single wire all the way up. It works pretty well too now.

Now that the legacy base is fixed, I think I'll change the topic title one last time, to something we can run with...

Adventures in TMCC & Legacy

RickO posted:

Mike Reagans TMCC/ Legacy signal video  recommends running the ground wire along the tracks, between parallel tracks. Go to 12:40 on this video https://youtu.be/UQ-hiIvPxVs

Earlier in the video it discusses the signal interference of over and under trackage

I'm under the impression your chicken wire keeps the lower level from interfering with the upper, but it doesn't solve the parallel tracks ground plane issue.

I'm no expert, just "cobbling together" information I've gathered from other sources.

 

RickO,

I learned in another thread where a club was losing signal in one curve, that the elevated wire is the more effective method. There were some notes from Jon Z., perhaps posted by NJ Hi-Railers in working out their signal issues. If I find that, I'll post the link.

One thing of note with a large layout.  If you have too much "antenna" area and get excessive coupling between the track signal and the ground signal, that could result in a lower amplitude signal from the base due to excessive loading.  I suspect if you measure the capacitance between the outside rail and the ground plane, you might be surprised how large a value it'll be.  Obviously, this measurement would be with the command base disconnected.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

One thing of note with a large layout.  If you have too much "antenna" area and get excessive coupling between the track signal and the ground signal, that could result in a lower amplitude signal from the base due to excessive loading.  I suspect if you measure the capacitance between the outside rail and the ground plane, you might be surprised how large a value it'll be.  Obviously, this measurement would be with the command base disconnected.

My exact thoughts this AM. First of all the use of the term "ground plane". It's just a wire (connected to the house ground wire), in the air, over the track the engine is running on. The use of a large surface area like the chicken wire or large area metal foil seems like, as GRJ points out, a large capacitance between the track and the in the air ground wire. Which would reduce the amplitude of the signal.

I have asked Elliot to disconnect some of the earth-ground mesh to see how much the signal amplitude increases so that we can better understand the loading effects.

I suspect that the chicken wire is so close to the upper track that the effective radiation downward from the mesh is weakened.  More testing to come....

Sounds like a plan Dale.  I'm sure you're on top of this, it'll be interesting to see what effect it has.

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

"Thank you Nick. Patience and persistence are the words of the day. There were those who just said send it in. I'm glad I toughed it out a bit. If you look back on page 4, near the middle, that's where the diagnosis came together. After that, the surgery was easy. This has been a fun topic, getting a lot of people involved, and thinking out in the open."

Now that the legacy base is fixed, I think I'll change the topic title one last time, to something we can run with...

Adventures in TMCC & Legacy

Curious, would this have been solved much sooner if a known good Legacy base was substituted since the TMCC base functioned? Nice layout and construction thread.

Elliott, I am very happy to hear you got it resolved. 

BobbyD posted:

Big_Boy_4005 posted:

"Thank you Nick. Patience and persistence are the words of the day. There were those who just said send it in. I'm glad I toughed it out a bit. If you look back on page 4, near the middle, that's where the diagnosis came together. After that, the surgery was easy. This has been a fun topic, getting a lot of people involved, and thinking out in the open."

Now that the legacy base is fixed, I think I'll change the topic title one last time, to something we can run with...

Adventures in TMCC & Legacy

Curious, would this have been solved much sooner if a known good Legacy base was substituted since the TMCC base functioned? Nice layout and construction thread.

While this makes sense and I do agree. Sometimes it's just not that easy. I have my Legacy set away for repair at the moment. My issue was LCS operations so different from Elliot's problem.  It could have been quickly diagnosed with a spare Legacy set. However I only know of around 6 Legacy sets in the whole UK! Arranging to borrow one would have been a bit tricky.

I guess I could spend $300 and have a spare sitting in a drawer. But I have a spare TMCC base for a backup. 

I would like to see a diagnostic utility built in to the LSU software. So you attach your base to the serial/USB lead and your PC and it automatically checks everything is within operating limits. Might need some sort of special lead so it could check the output on the terminal so it could diagnose an issue like Elliot had. 

Nick

Elliot,

Put a frame up high  with chicken wire in the middle of  Train Room..

That should help improve a better signal throughout the entire Train Room 

Your  have to hard-wire to the chicken wire. but i think you was doing that already.

Please let us know how you make out.

Good luck, John