I am NEVER buying or pre-ordering again!

@Mark Holmgren 110217 posted:

No. I was new to the hobby and didn’t know anything. I had bought an MTH starter set and it had PS3.0 and assumed Lionel would be the equivalent. I had forgotten about the old forward/neutral/reverse thing from the ‘70s (to me) and was shocked the train still ran that way when the MTH one was so much more sophisticated.

Well it’s a good thing Lionel that Lionel has stepped up! I think even their most basic starter sets come with a Lion Chief remote. I also think Lionel has come along ways even with he past five years.

@aussteve posted:

Well back to the original topic.

I only pre-ordered one item and that was the 18005 in 1991.  I resold it before I took delivery.  Now days it's just to easy and cheap to pick things up on the secondary market.  I must add there has never been a train that I just had to have.  I understand how that would significantly change the situation.

I can also understand the frustration of ordering X and getting Y or having problems right out of the box.   That's another reason I want to see it operate in person before buying it (one of my justifications for "needing"  to go to  York.)

Wow! No pre orders in 30 years! I am finding just the opposite experience after taking a break from the hobby for six years. Before my hiatus. Lionel would make a ton of stuff and you could always find what you are looking for at blow out prices long after release.

Now that I have come back and have just discovered Lionel’s Legacy system I am on a locomotive buying spree to catch up. However, it’s not like the old days. Trying to find a Providence and Worcester SD70 that just came out: gone! How about the Legacy Central Vermont RS-11? The one that no one likes because of the “wrong” paint scheme? Can’t find one anywhere. People that have them aren’t giving them up either. It’s a very different market out there than just a few years ago. To me, if you want the good high end stuff, preorder it if you like it.

@NYC 428 posted:

Berkshire PresidentMember

HO doesn't have a "standard", bub.  It's a scale.

I try to like all model trains.....but some people have an.....attitude.

There's just as much junk in HO as there is in practically every scale.

Your quite correct HO is a scale, however, it has quite a number of standards, you may to check out below.

And if anyone has an attitude it's you BUB!

NMRA Standards and Recommended Practices

The NMRA standards have specifications for O scale too.  They even have deep flange specs.  ...And specs for O27.

I have had that feeling as well but it ususally goes away after I have had my breakfast.

@rplst8 posted:

The NMRA standards have specifications for O scale too.  They even have deep flange specs.  ...And specs for O27.

OMG!!! Do the NMRA men in black do unannounced layout inspections??? I need to hide the UFO and Bigfoot!! I don’t think they are covered by NMRA standards.😁

Sheesh, one of those OGR threads I could practically "script" myself.

When does the torches and pitchfork brigade  start marching on Concord, N.C. ?

@johnstrains posted:

When does the torches and pitchfork brigade  start marching on Concord, N.C. ?

Apparently pretty soon.   Amazing that Lionel is doing everything wrong, yet they're the last man standing.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Apparently pretty soon.   Amazing that Lionel is doing everything wrong, yet they're the last man standing.

Come on John, your one of the guys that finds the problems when things are delivered.

They're not doing everything wrong. Just alot more wrong lately then they have in the past.

Mike Wolf isn't retiring because no one is buying his trains due to defects.

However. I'm inclined to think Lionel sales may begin to suffer if they can't at least remember how to make a 4 wheel freight truck that works correctly.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Apparently pretty soon.   Amazing that Lionel is doing everything wrong, yet they're the last man standing.

All I wish for is that some of these people that are unhappy with their Lionel legacy locomotives be willing to sell them to me. I don't understand why someone would start a thread:

- Saying they NEVER would have bought this Lionel locomotive if they had seen it first

- They hate the color and and complain so much that other posters are telling them: "Send it back!!"

- Yet, when others line up saying, "Hey! I've been looking for that locomotive! I will buy it from you!" The OP clams up and discovers that they now want to keep their $500 Lionel locomotive they "hate" so much.

I honestly think that some people are being overly dramatic with their complaints of Lionel.  They want to keep their $500 locomotive just so they can enjoy complaining about it!

@RickO posted:

Come on John, your one of the guys that finds the problems when things are delivered.

They're not doing everything wrong. Just alot more wrong lately then they have in the past.

Mike Wolf isn't retiring because no one is buying his trains due to defects.

However. I'm inclined to think Lionel sales may begin to suffer if they can't at least remember how to make a 4 wheel freight truck that works correctly.

I think Lionel is doing just fine, sales wise. The pandemic has people shut in and they are rediscovering the joys of building a layout and Lionel is benefiting.

Hear those squealing brakes?? That's the sound of the MTH train slowing down to full stop.  The reason why really doesn't matter at this point.

I strictly collect L but have not pre-ordered or even ordered anything new since 2017.  That was the year standard O freight was fitted with thumbtack couplers and sprung “looking” trucks.  I’ve been sitting idling on a siding watching all the wiffs by L go by on quality, colors and trucks again ever since.   When they finally get their ”s“ back in one sock again I will then the slowly pull back out onto the mainline.  

@RickO posted:

Come on John, your one of the guys that finds the problems when things are delivered.

They're not doing everything wrong. Just alot more wrong lately then they have in the past.

Mike Wolf isn't retiring because no one is buying his trains due to defects.

However. I'm inclined to think Lionel sales may begin to suffer if they can't at least remember how to make a 4 wheel freight truck that works correctly.

I find problems with all brands, it's not just Lionel.  Personally, I think that the MTH PS/3 electronics was a step back, it's vastly more complex for very little gain in functionality.  The number of defective new boards I receive from MTH is far and away a much greater percentage than I receive from Lionel.

Don't even get me started on MTH's lame "wireless" drawbar debacle!

@Madockawando posted:

Now that I have come back and have just discovered Lionel’s Legacy system I am on a locomotive buying spree to catch up. However, it’s not like the old days. Trying to find a Providence and Worcester SD70 that just came out: gone! How about the Legacy Central Vermont RS-11? The one that no one likes because of the “wrong” paint scheme? Can’t find one anywhere. People that have them aren’t giving them up either. It’s a very different market out there than just a few years ago. To me, if you want the good high end stuff, preorder it if you like it.

I think you have hit on one of the situations where pre-ordering may be wise.  If it is a locomotive for, shall we call it, an underappreciated road, or a unique item, then pre-ordering makes more sense.  In a BTO world these are the items where there are less likely to be a surplus floating around, and they are also the items that are most likely to be cancelled. 

In a sense GRJ is right, somehow Lionel has ended up where they were years ago, if not the last man standing, at the very least the predominant maker ( no offense to Atlas or Third rail, just their scope is different).

On the other hand as has been discussed many times, there isn't all that much choice if you are buying new stuff even with MTH around, in the sense that in an oligopoly the lack of choice means quality usually doesn't differ much and that is my impression. The US car industry was an oligopoly and until they faced real competition, their quality was indifferent in any real measure. Even w luxury cars that was a problem,Benz had/has a cachet about it, but for all the German engineering had real quality problems, difficult to fix,expensive to fix....but until Lexis and Infiniti came into being they had no reason to change,that scared them.

@Madockawando posted:

- Yet, when others line up saying, "Hey! I've been looking for that locomotive! I will buy it from you!" The OP clams up and discovers that they now want to keep their $500 Lionel locomotive they "hate" so much.

I honestly think that some people are being overly dramatic with their complaints of Lionel.  They want to keep their $500 locomotive just so they can enjoy complaining about it!

The problem with this logic is that the time to buy and own some of these locos is limited.  The person obviously wants the item, but if they sell they have no recourse to get what they were promised and paid for.  Hopefully if enough ire is raised at the non-delivery, or delivery of incorrect items, some remedy might be offered to make the customer whole.  

For instance, I saw some other tread about the color green being wrong on some item, and Lionel is actually sending new shells to customers. It has yet to happen, but it’s the right way to handle it.  

People have a right to demand they get what they paid for.  Imagine ordering a new truck with a V8 and it arriving with a V6, a bike horn, and a reverse light that flickers. Would you take delivery of it from the dealer?

@rplst8 posted:

The problem with this logic is that the time to buy and own some of these locos is limited.  The person obviously wants the item, but if they sell they have no recourse to get what they were promised and paid for.  Hopefully if enough ire is raised at the non-delivery, or delivery of incorrect items, some remedy might be offered to make the customer whole.  

For instance, I saw some other tread about the color green being wrong on some item, and Lionel is actually sending new shells to customers. It has yet to happen, but it’s the right way to handle it.  

People have a right to demand they get what they paid for.  Imagine ordering a new truck with a V8 and it arriving with a V6, a bike horn, and a reverse light that flickers. Would you take delivery of it from the dealer?

Exactly, it took 17 months to find out that the promised boiler front for the J3a Hudson 5416 would NOT be delivered.  During that time there were multiple threads about this engine not being what was expected and NO ONE said on any of those threads that they would like to buy the engine from the original purchasers.

@GregM posted:

...snip... and NO ONE said on any of those threads that they would like to buy the engine from the original purchasers.

But, they just might have contacted the op privately; which is the right and proper way to do it.

@rplst8 posted:

The problem with this logic is that the time to buy and own some of these locos is limited.  The person obviously wants the item, but if they sell they have no recourse to get what they were promised and paid for.  Hopefully if enough ire is raised at the non-delivery, or delivery of incorrect items, some remedy might be offered to make the customer whole.  

For instance, I saw some other tread about the color green being wrong on some item, and Lionel is actually sending new shells to customers. It has yet to happen, but it’s the right way to handle it.  

People have a right to demand they get what they paid for.  Imagine ordering a new truck with a V8 and it arriving with a V6, a bike horn, and a reverse light that flickers. Would you take delivery of it from the dealer?

I'm sorry, but no.  Sure, you have a right to be unhappy if you don't like it.  However, if you are going to complain on OGR that the engine you pre-ordered has the wrong paint scheme and go so far as to say: "If I saw this locomotive before I bought it I never would have purchased it" and yet turn down all offers from people who want the locomotive and will pay you what you paid for it, then I am waving the the BS flag.  Its called being overly dramatic and over stating your case.

This is especially so when the locomotive as delivered looks almost exactly like it was pictured in the catalog.

BTW, I must have missed an announcement where Lionel is sending replacement shells for a recently released locomotive. Which locomotive is Lionel sending replacement shells for?

@Madockawando posted:

All I wish for is that some of these people that are unhappy with their Lionel legacy locomotives be willing to sell them to me. I don't understand why someone would start a thread:

- Saying they NEVER would have bought this Lionel locomotive if they had seen it first

- They hate the color and and complain so much that other posters are telling them: "Send it back!!"

- Yet, when others line up saying, "Hey! I've been looking for that locomotive! I will buy it from you!" The OP clams up and discovers that they now want to keep their $500 Lionel locomotive they "hate" so much.

I honestly think that some people are being overly dramatic with their complaints of Lionel.  They want to keep their $500 locomotive just so they can enjoy complaining about it!

This is really the point of the whole thread.  Yes, there are problems, but there is little choice or options.  Simply buy and enjoy, or don't.  Either way, BE HAPPY!

You may not believe it, but I understand it.  The standard people apply to whether they would buy something and the standard they apply to whether they would keep it are not necessarily the same.  There are plenty of parallels to this behavior in other fields.

@PRRMP54 posted:

But, they just might have contacted the op privately; which is the right and proper way to do it.

It is/was well known that I am an original purchaser of one of the J3a Hudson engines, no one ever contacted me.

@Madockawando posted:

Wow! No pre orders in 30 years! I am finding just the opposite experience after taking a break from the hobby for six years. Before my hiatus. Lionel would make a ton of stuff and you could always find what you are looking for at blow out prices long after release.

Now that I have come back and have just discovered Lionel’s Legacy system I am on a locomotive buying spree to catch up. However, it’s not like the old days. Trying to find a Providence and Worcester SD70 that just came out: gone! How about the Legacy Central Vermont RS-11? The one that no one likes because of the “wrong” paint scheme? Can’t find one anywhere. People that have them aren’t giving them up either. It’s a very different market out there than just a few years ago. To me, if you want the good high end stuff, preorder it if you like it.

Just to update: thanks to PH1975 I now have that Providence and Worcester SD70!
yeah! Thank you PH1975

@Madockawando posted:

I'm sorry, but no.  Sure, you have a right to be unhappy if you don't like it.  However, if you are going to complain on OGR that the engine you pre-ordered has the wrong paint scheme and go so far as to say: "If I saw this locomotive before I bought it I never would have purchased it" and yet turn down all offers from people who want the locomotive and will pay you what you paid for it, then I am waving the the BS flag.  Its called being overly dramatic and over stating your case.

Not sure who crowned you king of deciding what is and isn’t “BS” and/or dramatic.  People are free to share their experiences, both to warn others and to see if others are having a similar problem.  What happens between them and the dealer/manufacture and whether they want to sell their item is no one else’s business.

BTW, I must have missed an announcement where Lionel is sending replacement shells for a recently released locomotive. Which locomotive is Lionel sending replacement shells for?

I think it was in the missing J3a boiler front thread, but I can’t find it.

@rplst8 posted:

I think it was in the missing J3a boiler front thread, but I can’t find it.

Yep, that thread is history, just glad I saw Pat's (Patrick's Trains) post regarding refunds before it was zapped.

I printed this thread to a PDF, just in case, wish I had done that with the other thread.

@Madockawando posted:

Well it’s a good thing Lionel that Lionel has stepped up! I think even their most basic starter sets come with a Lion Chief remote. I also think Lionel has come along ways even with he past five years.

Do they have adjustable volume? I was under the impression they had stuff that was volume off or on but no variability. That’s the kind of stuff that keeps me leery of the new Lionel stuff.

@rplst8 posted:

Not sure who crowned you king of deciding what is and isn’t “BS” and/or dramatic.  People are free to share their experiences, both to warn others and to see if others are having a similar problem.  What happens between them and the dealer/manufacture and whether they want to sell their item is no one else’s business.

I think it was in the missing J3a boiler front thread, but I can’t find it.

Not “King of the Dramatic.” Just applying common sense.  If you are so angry about a $500 locomotive that you bring it to everyone’s attention and say that you wish you never bought it, is overly dramatic when you decide to keep it anyway. Especially when you can get a full refund.  😉😏

If you see it and don’t like it, don’t buy it.

If you buy it and don’t like it, sell it.

If you buy it and don’t like it but keep it anyway. Then why complain?

@Madockawando posted:

Not “King of the Dramatic.” Just applying common sense.  

For me common sense is getting what you ordered and paid for.

If you are so angry about a $500 locomotive that you bring it to everyone’s attention and say that you wish you never bought it, is overly dramatic when you decide to keep it anyway. Especially when you can get a full refund.  😉😏

If you see it and don’t like it, don’t buy it.

If you buy it and don’t like it, sell it.

If you buy it and don’t like it but keep it anyway. Then why complain?

Apparently you’ve never heard of opportunity cost.

If you wish you never bought something and you can get a full refund, your opportunity cost is $0.00

IMHO, this thread is not fun, interesting or informative anymore.

How does one unsubscribe from a single thread?

@Lionelski posted:

IMHO, this thread is not fun, interesting or informative anymore.

How does one unsubscribe from a single thread?

Look at the top of the page. There is a red bell with 2 lines on each side of it just to the right of “Again!” (The last word in the title of the thread)  Click on it and it will change color to blue and the lines will disappear. You are now unsubscribed.

@Lionelski posted:

IMHO, this thread is not fun, interesting or informative anymore.

How does one unsubscribe from a single thread?

Little Bell at the top of the page next to the topic name.  Click on it to follow or unfollow a topic.

IMHO this forum is not very fun, interesting or informative anymore.  Not enough talk about trains and mostly complainers.  This is sad.  I stay for about ten posters who make things relevant.

Thanks Phil and Jonathan, I'll do just that

Learn something new everyday

I believe that the vast majority of whiners found on this forum don't even own the item there complaining about.  Thus the inability to sell the product in question to someone willing to pay full price.

Also notice how its the same people over and over doing all the whining.

@NYC 428 posted:

I believe that the vase majority of whiners found on this forum don't even own the item there complaining about.  Thus the inability to sell the product in question to someone willing to pay full price.

Also notice how its the same people over and over doing all the whining.

What’s worse I wonder...

Commiserating with fellow members of the hobby about similar issues they’ve encountered, if not the exact same one?

or...

Complaining about a “whiner” which they could simply ignore?

Same people commiserating about the same things over and over.

Sounds familiar "Doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome" There's a word for this type of behavior.

@NYC 428 posted:

All I can say is MADE IN CHINA !!  The American manufactures have little to say about QC.  Once you send your tooling over there it becomes the property of the company producing the models.  If you don't like what they turn out ....its too bad, want your tooling back,,,pay for it.

I've read enough of this nonsense, and it really needs to stop. QC is not the reason model train manufacturing should be brought back to the U.S. I have become so frustrated with O gauge/scale/P48, that I decided to try and start a new train company in my spare time. From communications and observations, I have found it's not the manufacturers in China that dictate the QC of a product, it's the company selling model trains. If the model train company takes a laisse fair approach, you get the same result in the product. The HO train companies I have observed that put out top notch products are in China watching after their product from the first molding to final inspection and packing. They don't OK a pre-production model half way around the world and then sit and wait for the models to arrive. That lack of leadership and management is how you end up with poor QC. And I have been around enough workers in the U.S. who do just as poor of a job as those who "Make in China" per your claim.

And before I get the rebuttal that I don't know what I'm talking about, this is a prototypical 40ft. ISO container side that I have researched and rescaled to 1/48 (O) with accuracy to 0.00001". This took me over a week to find sources, double and triple check my math, and create in CAD, ensuring angles, measurements, bottom C rail and top rail were dead on or as close as mathematically possible. This one side costs $0.96 to produce. The mold itself was quoted at over $9,000 from multiple American manufacturers. To have 5,000 sides (2,500 containers) and to recoup the cost of the mold, each side would cost $5.52 (using $9,000 for the mold.) That's before American labor, paint, packaging and my profit are included. Compare that to $0.68 per side and $4,700 mold quotes from China. The gap grows bigger as the quantity per run is increased. That is why companies choose to manufacture in China. Whether my models are made in the U.S. (my preference) or another country, the QC of this container will be as stringent as the rest of the effort I have put into this model. My QC standards. So saying such-and-such a company has mediocre QC because a product was made in China is ignorant and makes that company look really lazy.

I wish you the very best with your new company.  And if you can ace the quality even better.

Please let us all know what your company name will be and approximately when and what items to expect.

Once again all the best !!!! 

I got sucked into this thread, so I guess I have to reply on topic now. The only time I have ever pre-ordered was over three years ago because it was an "I have to have it" order. The items were made by AtlasO (my favorite manufacturer), and I knew the rolling stock would be as I expected. I have a very focused agenda for my layout, and I want specific rolling stock and locomotives. Otherwise, I shop second hand if the item is useful or will pick up a fixer upper every now and then.

@ChessieFan72 posted:

I've read enough of this nonsense, and it really needs to stop. QC is not the reason model train manufacturing should be brought back to the U.S. I have become so frustrated with O gauge/scale/P48, that I decided to try and start a new train company in my spare time. From communications and observations, I have found it's not the manufacturers in China that dictate the QC of a product, it's the company selling model trains. If the model train company takes a laisse fair approach, you get the same result in the product. The HO train companies I have observed that put out top notch products are in China watching after their product from the first molding to final inspection and packing. They don't OK a pre-production model half way around the world and then sit and wait for the models to arrive. That lack of leadership and management is how you end up with poor QC. And I have been around enough workers in the U.S. who do just as poor of a job as those who "Make in China" per your claim.

And before I get the rebuttal that I don't know what I'm talking about, this is a prototypical 40ft. ISO container side that I have researched and rescaled to 1/48 (O) with accuracy to 0.00001". This took me over a week to find sources, double and triple check my math, and create in CAD, ensuring angles, measurements, bottom C rail and top rail were dead on or as close as mathematically possible. This one side costs $0.96 to produce. The mold itself was quoted at over $9,000 from multiple American manufacturers. To have 5,000 sides (2,500 containers) and to recoup the cost of the mold, each side would cost $5.52 (using $9,000 for the mold.) That's before American labor, paint, packaging and my profit are included. Compare that to $0.68 per side and $4,700 mold quotes from China. The gap grows bigger as the quantity per run is increased. That is why companies choose to manufacture in China. Whether my models are made in the U.S. (my preference) or another country, the QC of this container will be as stringent as the rest of the effort I have put into this model. My QC standards. So saying such-and-such a company has mediocre QC because a product was made in China is ignorant and makes that company look really lazy.

Stewart, make sure you contact me if you decide to do ANY kind of promoting of your new company here on the forum.

Thanks!

I really tried not to get sucked into this post. I I won't pre-order from Lionel. Aside from the fact that I am trying to reduce train inventory, I can still buy stuff I like. And the Pacemaker steam engine Lionel has in the new catalog really caught my eye. But what color red? The last time I pre-ordered from Lionel was the 2007 Texas Special Legacy passenger set. A total disappointment from both color shade and quality. On the color shade, I wanted glossy like the Texas Special F3 set Lionel did in the late 90's. Even Mike Regan couldn't give me guidance on that. And on the QC side, the engine couldn't pull the cars that came with it up a 2% grade.

Lionel could describe color in the catalog or on their site if they wanted to do that. QC is a different issue. I NEVER had these problems from MTH. All you had to do was talk to Andy or Rich. They KNEW what was in the catalog.

Gerry