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So how many of you have said this?  I see comments like this over and over again in the posting. 

How many of you have followed through and stuck to your rant?  I suspect this is a fleeting thought that passes quickly.  To say" I will never buy a brand L or M (or whatever) product", or " I will never preorder again" and then miss the Holy Grail item i always wanted doesn't seem realistic.

For me, I may have limited purchases, but with a small market that is consolidating further, there is little choice other than to continue to make such purchases.

What do you think?  Have you followed through on your threat?  For how how long?  Do you regret it?

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My last pre-order was the recent VL Challenger.  It was fixed and I'm happy with it.....but that will be my last pre-order, unless it's from Third Rail.

I've always hated BTO.  My only other preorder was the first Legacy NKP 765 with Whistle Steam....that I was able to cancel after seeing it on Eric's Trains.

I don't buy any locomotive now....without first seeing it and hearing it....if it comes in a purple or orange box.

Last edited by Berkshire President
@RadioRon posted:

I don't understand people who say that... especially when there are dealers with whom you can pre-order w/o paying a deposit... & can cancel w/o any "penalty."  It is a non-issue as far as I am concerend.

Being promised X, shown X, and delivered Y is very disappointing and frustrating....especially when it comes with a four figure price tag.

Hobbies are supposed to bring enjoyment.....not disappointment.  Life does enough of the latter on its own.

I had been wanting Lionel to make a Legacy J3a for YEARS.

They finally do, and I dumped my preorder after issues with previous trains I preordered (Legacy H10) and was disappointed. Good thing as there are issues with that new J3a, i.e. 5 chuffs, silver smokebox etc.

Add to that "I" , have never been able to get through to Lionels CS since the departure of MR.

I'm now focused on older NIB items, and for less than 50%of the cost of the new version, you can't go wrong.

The never ending "issues" with new big ticket items, as well as the easy stuff like rolling stock, has put me through the Betty Ford of model trains in a hurry.

The excitement over the new catalogs has dwindled to the point I don't really even look at it anymore.

No regrets.

Last edited by RickO
@Gpritch posted:

So how many of you have said this?  I see comments like this over and over again in the posting.

How many of you have followed through and stuck to your rant?  I suspect this is a fleeting thought that passes quickly.  To say" I will never buy a brand L or M (or whatever) product", or " I will never preorder again" and then miss the Holy Grail item i always wanted doesn't seem realistic.

For me, I may have limited purchases, but with a small market that is consolidating further, there is little choice other than to continue to make such purchases.

What do you think?  Have you followed through on your threat?  For how how long?  Do you regret it?

I've not pre-ordered anything for at least 15 years now. No, I don't regret it one bit.

I took a break from buying any new trains for a couple of years and during that time I ignored Lionel's catalogs. Now that I have come back and have jumped into Legacy I am discovering locomotives I would like to have that were cataloged just a couple of years ago but are now no longer available. I missed out on the Providence and Worcester SD70 because I waited.  I just grabbed the very last Quebec North Shore and Labrador Dash-9 from TrainWorld. My take away from the experience is: pre-order it if you like it.

I took a break from buying any new trains for a couple of years and during that time I ignored Lionel's catalogs. Now that I have come back and have jumped into Legacy I am discovering locomotives I would like to have that were cataloged just a couple of years ago but are now no longer available. I missed out on the Providence and Worcester SD70 because I waited.  I just grabbed the very last Quebec North Shore and Labrador Dash-9 from TrainWorld. My take away from the experience is: pre-order it if you like it.

That happens from time to time when modeling or collecting more obscure lines....especially when the model hasn't been issued before....whether it be in Conventional Control, TMCC, or Legacy.

Even people who model or collect the larger lines are drawn to the smaller railroads....that they could otherwise care less about....just for the variety/uniqueness of the item.

I now have found my self wanting to collect small and obscure road names that service New England, Quebec, Ontario and the Maritime Provinces.

The Quebec North Shore and Labrador Dash-9 fits that. I missed out on the Lionel Providence and Worcester, I got the Central Maine and I am looking for the Central Vermont and the Central Maine and Quebec Railway (which Lionel has not made yet)

Oh, I look at the Lionel catalogs - pretty pictures.

Then I see pricing on tank cars for $75, reefers for $80, boxcars for $85 and gondolas for $50 I'm talking about these cars based on "traditional" molds and sizes.

One can easily get brand new, in boxes, LTI equivalents on the secondary markets for 1/4 to 1/3 of these prices. MPC boxed equivalents for 1/4 of these prices and excellent used Post war for 1/3 - 1/2 of these prices.

Ya know what, wait a year or two and you will be able to get the currently catalog cars in these categories with similar price breaks.

Forget engines priced up to $2,000. Give me Post War anytime. Repairable, beautiful, smoke rings, magna-traction, air whistles and bicycle horns and I'm a happy camper, feeling like a kid from the 1950's again.

When I first returned to the hobby, I pre-ordered a lot of items -- only to be disappointed with some upon delivery.  With time I've moved away from current production items to those no longer produced, i.e., pre-war along with some MPC as well as other items I took a pass on back in the 90's.  There are plenty of those out there and finding one in the "right" condition is part of the "thrill of the hunt" I suppose.  If you really want it, go for it!  (Then again, you can wait a few years and pick it up once depreciation has taken it's toll )

Two thumbs up to Rick O's post.

I thought I was the only person who stopped looking at the new catalogs.  Apparently not.

I enjoy looking at Lionel’s catalogs (and download them to a computer for reference) to see what may be produced and to see if “wishlist” or “leaked” items are actually in the catalog.  However, purchasing anything solely on the description provided in the catalog won’t ever happen again.  This includes any custom run items since the art work provided by Lionel cannot be trusted to reflect the actual production item.

@Lionelski posted:

Oh, I look at the Lionel catalogs - pretty pictures.

Then I see pricing on tank cars for $75, reefers for $80, boxcars for $85 and gondolas for $50 I'm talking about these cars based on "traditional" molds and sizes.

One can easily get brand new, in boxes, LTI equivalents on the secondary markets for 1/4 to 1/3 of these prices. MPC boxed equivalents for 1/4 of these prices and excellent used Post war for 1/3 - 1/2 of these prices.

Ya know what, wait a year or two and you will be able to get the currently catalog cars in these categories with similar price breaks.

Forget engines priced up to $2,000. Give me Post War anytime. Repairable, beautiful, smoke rings, magna-traction, air whistles and bicycle horns and I'm a happy camper, feeling like a kid from the 1950's again.

Well stated. 

I know I'm old (but younger than average in the train world), but I can't wrap my head around paying more for a toy than I spent for my first 4 real cars put together.  And I could fix them when they broke.

Totally agree with your points about waiting for items on the secondary market, and I'm leaning back into postwar too.

I still occasionally preorder unique items or for specific road names, but NEVER with a deposit.  There are plenty of reputable dealers who will take a preorder without money up front, so there's no need to wade into that swamp.

I have too much stuff or I'd preorder stuff, since the dealers I work with don't require deposits and respond to any problems, which have been, thankfully, few and far between.  I also try not to overreact to reports of lemons on the internet, because they may not and usually are not representative of my own experiences and those around me.  So I make no resolutions nor promises about my hobby, because it's a day to day thing .

I also prefer new to used, and am not interested in repairing or buffing up older models, and I like to have a warranty and exchange option, which does not exist with used. Different strokes for different folks.

Last edited by Landsteiner

I have never pre-ordered any train item in my entire train life.  Additionally, I made up my mind about 7 or 8 years ago to stop buying anything new on the market from any manufacturer.  I suffered through too many disappointments and out of box failures and became so disgusted I found myself losing interest in the hobby.   Best decision I ever made and my love for the hobby returned.   During the last 7 or 8 years or so my purchases have been limited to pre and post war items along with some early TMCC engines which I have found to be pretty much bullet proof.     However, last year I did break down and bought a Polar Express Lionchief  set to run for my Grandchildren at Christmas time.  Another mistake because as Yogi Berra once allegedly said it was Deja Vu all over again.  I guess my memory needed refreshing.     

75% of what we get from Lionel has something that is broken when received. We generally don’t preorder and we seldom order Lionel at all. But we do buy new trains and have six engines and a bunch of Virginian hoppers on order from Scott.

For us, Lionel has taken the fun out of buying their products and we own a tremendous amount of Lionel purchased over the last 50+ years. We would love to again be a happy Lionel customer.

Since I'm not buying locomotives (currently have my eye on all rolling stock except a couple MTH special release due out later this year), my biggest complaint is why do some major online dealers have some items and others don't have the same item. I would think most of the major online dealers would all carry the same items. And some will have the item and later when I check their website for updates, it's gone! And it's still not produced, but is still a to-be-produced item in the future. I have a spreadsheet set up so when something is announced it goes on the spreadsheet with an expected availability date. As that date gets closer, I keep checking their websites.

Would be nice if Lionel had a CURRENT shipping schedule! Yes, they do post one, but it's seriously out of date (American Freedom Train passenger cars - Pack 1 and 2 were supposed to be delivered in Dec 2020). Yes, I know due to the pandemic some things have slipped their availability date, but come on Lionel - that's going on 4 months without an update! At least MTH provides a list of "due in" items and also what they are currently or about to ship to dealers. It's update typically twice a month.

I waffled back and forth on pre-ordering the Lionel C&O sd 40s and since I missed the early buy discount I waited and was able to see pictures of the engines  posted on here prior to purchasing,  I had to act fast as they sold out quick ( I had to send one back for replacement for bad handrail but all was settled nicely by dealer).   I also procrastinated about purchasing the Maine Central gp 9s but decided not to get after seeing how "yellow" they were (I like the orangey harvest gold).  So d/t the color thing I am afraid to pre-order locomotives.  I also am seeing a real risk of not getting what you want as they sell so fast.  Tough situation...

I would never say never but it would take something never made before that fits my roster before would pre order. I have two pre orders now, one is over 5 years old. I see little new theses days.

edit, make that three pre orders but one, a Kohs caboose, is over ten years old. I think I can write that one off.

Pete

Last edited by Norton
@GG1 4877 posted:

99.999% of my pre-order is 3rd Rail.  I never have any real concerns as a result.  The only other 2 preorders I have purchased were <snip>

Jonathan, so if those 2 pre-orders represent 0.001% of all of your pre-orders, then you must have made 199,998 pre-orders for 3rd Rail stuff (199,998/200,000=99.999%).

Scott must be REALLY happy with you!  Good thing today is April 1st. 

@Bob posted:

Jonathan, so if those 2 pre-orders represent 0.001% of all of your pre-orders, then you must have made 199,998 pre-orders for 3rd Rail stuff (199,998/200,000=99.999%).

Scott must be REALLY happy with you!  Good thing today is April 1st. 

My math is a little off isn't it?  Would you believe that includes preorders yet to be placed at some time in the future?

You made me do them math though and it is actually close to 97%.

The only thing in terms of trains I've ever pre-ordered so far are the upcoming scale Amfleets and one Viewliner from GGD. I know I'm taking quite a shot with this, but it seems like it's not exactly a shot in the dark when it comes to stuff from Scott. After researching many of his past products and reading up on the forums how good his customer service is, I figured why not pre-order what is one of my favorite passenger cars of all time. I genuinely thought it was worth the risk, especially since his stuff is already very difficult to come by. I collect Williams' Amfleet cars, and I'd like to get the E. Welz versions at some point, but to this day no one else has ever made truly scale-length Amfleet cars in 3-rail. We'll see what Atlas does with the recently acquired tooling, but overall I cannot wait for the GGD Amfleet cars and the Viewliner too.

I think pre-ordering isn't a bad thing at all, but like some of you guys mentioned above it can be a unnecessarily bigger gamble than it needs to be. I generally don't pre-order anything myself, but if I do then my rule is to not pre-order things until I see them in-hand (including on the internet), or if I have a previous version of the product and I already know what it's like in terms of quality. Anything that's new for the first time, like new tooling or new electronics, I will never pre-order because I know there is the potential for things to go south really quickly, and I'd rather have the bugs/issues worked out earlier on before I get a product like that. And again, pre-ordering anything from Scott is a huge exception, because of how rare his stuff is and because according to other people on the forums, he has great customer service. If it were Lionel, MTH, Atlas, etc., then more than likely I won't pre-order anything, until I hear how the item is from other people.

I've never been one to purchase something sight unseen,..   I might have a few regrets on that policy but I expect less than actually purchasing stuff based on a drawing.   Example is the Southern E8 set, didn't pre-order and everywhere says it's sold out, not available, nope, no chance.    Which is ok, might find one later at a show or shop,..    which I can look at, hold, test run, etc,...        Yesterday I stopped at a hobby shop and whoa,...   there it was,..



And that other part,  I've been running at a statistical 20% defect rate on new Lionel locomotives,..    The online dealers have made good,  immediate replacements so all is good.

Last edited by Mike in NC

I've only ever pre-ordered one (L or M) product. I made the pre-order through a dealer (as some suggest), and many months before it arrived, I asked the dealer if I could cancel my order and was told that I would be "hosing him" which seems odd based on the volume they seem to move. Prior to that I had purchased existing inventory from that dealer and was generally happy. But as has been stated, nothing but sour thoughts and feeling every time I think of that specific pre-order experience.

It should be noted that I have pre-ordered many 3rd rail products and those were always positive experiences.

I never said never.  After a near miss with the ROW FT and a few bad experiences with dealers I decided I would only pre-order if it was something I really wanted.  Really wanted meant something I wanted bad enough to pull the money out of my current hobby budget and set it aside.  Since then I pre-ordered a few items, mostly from Weaver, and I was happy with those purchases.  There were a few items I missed out on, and yet somehow I have survived.

I now have found my self wanting to collect small and obscure road names that service New England, Quebec, Ontario and the Maritime Provinces.

The Quebec North Shore and Labrador Dash-9 fits that. I missed out on the Lionel Providence and Worcester, I got the Central Maine and I am looking for the Central Vermont and the Central Maine and Quebec Railway (which Lionel has not made yet)

You need to strike up an acquaintance with a custom painter.

I always pre order and have not been disappointed.  I get what I want at a discounted price, but I'm also not a rivet counter and if something is a little off I don't get upset, after all, it is three rail "O" gauge.

If I were very concerned about exact detail, color and model type I would be modeling in "two rail scale" or HO.

Everyone wants museum quality models , but at five and dime prices and that's not going to happen.

So if your a person that is very particular then do yourself a favor and don't pre order, wait till the item is released and find a LHS where you can examine the finished product before you buy.

Last edited by NYC 428
@NYC 428 posted:

I always pre order and have not been disappointed.  I get what I want at a discounted price, but I'm also not a rivet counter and if something is a little off I don't get upset, after all, it is three rail "O" gauge.

Oh boy, there goes that excuse again.

If I were very concerned about exact detail, color and model type I would be modeling in "two rail scale" or HO.

Apparently, you've never seen some of the very realistic layouts/ modelling posted on this forum.

Maybe check out some of those OGR layout videos you have access to with your digital subscription.

Everyone wants museum quality models , but at five and dime prices and that's not going to happen.

$1000-$2000 is five and dime? Theres a Dollar General near me, but they don't sell anything there anywhere near $1000

So if your a person that is very particular then do yourself a favor and don't pre order, wait till the item is released and find a LHS where you can examine the finished product before you buy.

Good idea.

BTW, many of the mistakes Lionel has made, are things they did right on previous runs, especially colors.

There is absolutely no justification for a 4 wheel freight truck and coupler to have issues when they've been making them for over 100 years.

Last edited by RickO
@NYC 428 posted:

I always pre order and have not been disappointed.  I get what I want at a discounted price, but I'm also not a rivet counter and if something is a little off I don't get upset, after all, it is three rail "O" gauge.

If I were very concerned about exact detail, color and model type I would be modeling in "two rail scale" or HO.

Everyone wants museum quality models , but at five and dime prices and that's not going to happen.

So if your a person that is very particular then do yourself a favor and don't pre order, wait till the item is released and find a LHS where you can examine the finished product before you buy.

Actually, many of us just wish Big Orange would live up to it's previous, respectable standard when their Steamers were made in Korea in the Railsounds 5.0 and early Legacy period.

Not living up to your own QC standards and removing previously standard features.....while increasing the price....is a bad business model, to me at least.

I've pre-ordered trains since - oh - 1974???  I ordered the Lionel Spirit of '76 set from Alison Cox of Seattle fame nearly a year in advance as the first Spirit trains were released in late '74/'75.

Problems pre-ordering over the years?  No, not really.  Regrets, ever?  Nope, not really.

If I want it and can afford it, I order it.

I've pre-ordered quite a bit of SP stuff from Lionel over the past year or so.  The trains are arriving.  Problems?  Nope.  At least not yet.

If I were to think of not pre-ordering, thoughts would go to Lionel's SP Lark loc (now in my possession) and how very quickly it will be UNavailable.

I always pre order and have not been disappointed.  I get what I want at a discounted price, but I'm also not a rivet counter and if something is a little off I don't get upset, after all, it is three rail "O" gauge.

Oh boy, there goes that excuse again.

No excuse just the facts, three rail "O" will never be up to the standards of HO.

If I were very concerned about exact detail, color and model type I would be modeling in "two rail scale" or HO.

Apparently, you've never seen some of the very realistic layouts/ modelling posted on this forum.

Maybe check out some of those OGR layout videos you have access to with your digital subscription.

I've seen the photos and videos of the excellent modeling on this forum.  But these creations are produces by people that put a lot of time and effort into adding, changing and reworking not only scenes on the layout but also changing, adding or re-painting there equipment to meat there high standards and not crying about the lack of same by the manufacture.

Everyone wants museum quality models , but at five and dime prices and that's not going to happen.

$1000-$2000 is five and dime? Theres a Dollar General near me, but they don't sell anything there anywhere near $1000

So if your a person that is very particular then do yourself a favor and don't pre order, wait till the item is released and find a LHS where you can examine the finished product before you buy.

I didn't know Dollar General sold trains But I have seen a number of posts referring to Menards offerings ($20 to 25) and crying about poor trucks and lack of detail.

In any case, I don't think you'll find a museum quality price for less then $5,000 to 10,000 and it will be a static display at that.

Good idea.

BTW, many of the mistakes Lionel has made, are things they did right on previous runs, especially colors.

There is absolutely no justification for a 4 wheel freight truck and coupler to have issues when they've been making them for over 100 years.

All I can say is MADE IN CHINA !!  The American manufactures have little to say about QC.  Once you send your tooling over there it becomes the property of the company producing the models.  If you don't like what they turn out ....its too bad, want your tooling back,,,pay for it.

Last edited by NYC 428
@Bill Webb posted:

75% of what we get from Lionel has something that is broken when received. We generally don’t preorder and we seldom order Lionel at all. But we do buy new trains and have six engines and a bunch of Virginian hoppers on order from Scott.

For us, Lionel has taken the fun out of buying their products and we own a tremendous amount of Lionel purchased over the last 50+ years. We would love to again be a happy Lionel customer.

I enjoy Lionel LC starter sets, especially the passenger train sets like the recent Blue Comet and the Super Chief. Both winners.  BUT... you are correct that quality control can be fleeting.

So I have a workaround and it never fails me: I’m an Amazon prime member and I buy Lionel starter sets ONLY from Amazon. Why? Because if it doesn’t work, I have 30 days to return and they pay the shipping. I am guaranteed to wind up with a working set or it goes back at no loss to me.

I have not had to send many sets back. Lucky I guess. But I did send back two Hogwarts Express sets before giving up.

Last edited by pdxtrains
@Jim 1939 posted:

Yes you are hosing the dealer. He based his order on your preorder. Sadly our local hobby shop has been hosed a few times as well. He can't control what/how it get's made. If you don't want the risk, don't preorder. It hurts the dealer.

I've had (one of the reasons why I stopped pre-ordering) the reverse hosing from a major dealer, twice.

Pre-ordered, received email confirmation, never received the product when I noticed that others who did not pre-order received the item in question. Called the dealer and was told, basically, sorry, sold out.

These happened to be popular items that were going for full price or higher - coincidence?? 

If the dealer didn't want the risk. he shouldn't take pre-orders. It hurts the customer.

@Cogen1981 posted:

Definitely relevant topic, there is one company who comes to mind, but I will not say.

I preordered this:

F7FA0E13-1B49-484A-8141-7AC84CFD4A16

I got this:
E49EECBA-3D9A-44EA-BC62-D258439FFF1A

The picture does not capture how bad the color is, it’s literally neon red.

The vendor who I will also not mention gave me some hassle when I exchanged it.

If you don’t want that flashy red thing, I’ll gladly buy it off your hands. 😉

@Lionelski posted:

I've had (one of the reasons why I stopped pre-ordering) the reverse hosing from a major dealer, twice.

Pre-ordered, received email confirmation, never received the product when I noticed that others who did not pre-order received the item in question. Called the dealer and was told, basically, sorry, sold out.

These happened to be popular items that were going for full price or higher - coincidence??

If the dealer didn't want the risk. he shouldn't take pre-orders. It hurts the customer.

This happened to me twice with a very prominent dealer. I didn't make the pre-order though email but through a phone call. One of the times I called the person who answered was polite but just something about the way they talked I had the feeling they didn't write anything down or process my pre-order in any way. The other time I thought the pre-order actually got processed. The person seemed to be on the ball. I guess they were just confident. Both times I never received said item. I won't mention the store due to OGR rules and the fact I do not believe it was the fault of the store ownership/management. I didn't get either item, one because it was sold out and the other one because I just said the heck with it.

"In your case that dealer would become an I don't buy from them anymore." I felt that the store had hired a lazy employee or had a very poor system of pre-ordering so I did not blame the store. I still bought stuff on occasion from that store but I never did pre-order anything else from them.

A similar thing happened at my old LHS. I pre-ordered stuff from Atlas and it never arrived. I was told that the Atlas rep who took the pre-order never placed it. At least in this case the LHS owner was able to track down some of the pieces from another hobby shop and she got them for me without any shipping charges.

As for the original topic I never said I wouldn't ever again pre-order stuff. As a 2 railer you have to or you will be left out in the cold. Since I am 2 rail I haven't pre-ordered anything from Lionel since I was a 3 railer over 17 years ago. I had no problems with Lionel back then but as you all know things haven't been the same for Lionel over the years. If Lionel did offer 2 rail I have to say I might pre-order something and just pray there aren't any major issues.

Last edited by Hudson J1e

Pre-order doesn't guarantee that you'll get your order. I pre-ordered an RK locomotive before the MTH closure announcement. When they were delivered late last year, my dealer didn't receive mine. Obviously, MTH didn't build enough. Fortunately, I was able to purchase one from a forum sponsor.

I swore off Lionel pre-orders after 2 Legacy locomotive (engineering) failures.

I currently have a 3rd rail locomotive set on order and an Atlas Trainman locomotive.

I likely won't pre-order anything anymore due more to the current global events than to quality control issues.  I pre- ordered a bunch of autoracks from the Lionel 2018 catalog. They took two years to finally be made. By the time the dealer  got them early last spring and they were shipped to my parcel pick-up place in the US (I live in Canada), the border was closed.  Too much uncertainty now for me to want pre-order in the future.

@Jim 1939 posted:

Yes you are hosing the dealer. He based his order on your preorder. Sadly our local hobby shop has been hosed a few times as well. He can't control what/how it get's made. If you don't want the risk, don't preorder. It hurts the dealer.

No....you are NOT hosing the dealer.  It's a risk the dealer has to accept given what he sells.

The issue is to then be resolved between big orange and the dealer....not the consumer.

Do you not send a poorly cooked steak back to the kitchen b/c it hurts the restaurant owner?

I have one 3rdrail engine on pre order.  There’s only one engine I’d pre order from Lionel.  Otherwise I’m done with them.  Every item I’ve purchased from big L has been defective one way or another over the past two years, either engines or rolling stock.   So for the most part I’m done, I mostly have everything I need.

@Jim 1939 posted:

If you don't take what you promised to buy YES YOU are hosing the dealer. He's stuck with what YOU ordered.

If you have issue about buying what You ordered then don't preorder.

In my opinion, saying the dealer is “stuck with what YOU ordered” is a ridiculous statement.  The dealer is not prevented from selling it to someone else and as was the case for Pat’s Trains custom run J3A Hudson, it can be sold for a higher price because the pre-order discount no longer applies.  

The only thing I ever pre-ordered in this hobby (other than inexpensive small items made by short-run vendors, like some 3D prints) was Bachmann's Baldwin class 10 2-6-2T "trench engine" in On30, and that was because I'd read about the pre-production samples and how well they ran. I ordered mine from Train World, so I knew I could cancel it if I needed. It showed up soon enough and you've seen it in OGR last year.

I'm also into other hobbies and pre-order items are a staple in some of them. For example, I'm into sci-fi stuff and that is a very common business model. Also common there is the forums choked with threads about vendors who take your money, promise forever, until you can no longer contest the charge, then you're out of the money for good. And most of the time, they get away with it until someone does a USPS complaint. I started reading those early on and have never pre-ordered anything like that because it's so common. People prey on the "gotta have this thing" mindset all the time, and there's a long line of suckers just itching to be their next victim.

Not Me. If I miss it, then so be it. Have it in stock and if I want it, I'll pay you then.

@Jim 1939 posted:

If you don't take what you promised to buy YES YOU are hosing the dealer. He's stuck with what YOU ordered.

If you have issue about buying what You ordered then don't preorder.

I disagree entirely.  This is the only leverage the customer has. No one should be forced to accept a product that isn’t what was described. That includes missing features, incorrect colors, and or misspellings.  The dealer is free to blacklist the customer from preordering with them again.

Last edited by rplst8

I think the larger issue here is the dealer often has to deal with someone that thinks it's ok to refuse items again and again!  However this same person continues to want to place pre-orders for several items a year.  You have to place yourself in the shoes of both the dealer and consumer to understand how difficult a place this places both of them in.  It's a shame that most of the product cannot be delivered as described as it would solve most of this unnecessary tension.

At the present time I'm not pre-ordering any Lionel.  It's just too much of a crap shoot what color they might paint it.

Last edited by MichRR714

Do I pre-order and, in some cases, make a pre-order down payment - yup.  I only had trouble once - many years ago, the company went bankrupt and took my deposit with them - in the grand scheme of things a bit of a bummer but N.B.D..  On the other hand, all of the other experiences have been very positive and, in several instances, was the only way I could guarantee I would get the item - for example

Engine_SMR_General_McCalum

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Last edited by Robert S. Butler
@jjm posted:

The Amazon idea is a good one, but you can also try using a credit card that offers an extended warranty and purchase protection.

If I was not a Prime member I might go that way. But even the credit card protection has a layer of hassle that does not exist with Amazon. It is hassle free. I log into my account, check boxes, print a form, put train in shipping box, and UPS picks it up the next day. Done.

@Lionelski posted:

I've had (one of the reasons why I stopped pre-ordering) the reverse hosing from a major dealer, twice.

Pre-ordered, received email confirmation, never received the product when I noticed that others who did not pre-order received the item in question. Called the dealer and was told, basically, sorry, sold out.

These happened to be popular items that were going for full price or higher - coincidence??

If the dealer didn't want the risk. he shouldn't take pre-orders. It hurts the customer.

If a dealer did that to me I would file a complaint with the state department of consumer affairs, with the better business bureau if they are a member, and probably also would write a letter to the train company letting them know how Joe Dealer treats their customers, if this is the full story then that dealer doesn't deserve the business. In a sense it is kind of like bait and switch tactics, the unit at your price isn't available, but they have this nice one at X dollars more; in your case, if you were buying it at his asking price, he likely would have it. I agree being a dealer is tough and I sympathize if a dealer pre orders, pays for it, then the person backs out, but then again how many of these guys act like they are doing them a favor? I made a somewhat sizeable purchase from one of the vendors who supports this board, and it couldn't have been better, they let me know how long they expected it to take to get it (they have a backlog apparently), when I recently inquired about the timing they let me know the eta,very nicely.

Gonna get some people mad on here, but just based on my own experience, a lot of the LHS's and small dealers I have dealt with forget that the customer in a sense is doing them a favor by buying there. No, it doesn't mean customers have the right to be abusive, or act like a ****** (substitute your favorite aphorism for nasty things), but often when I talk about bad service I get "you know what they face from customers?" Well, I am not those customers, treat me with respect and honesty, and if I am a bad customer, then treat me like that *shrug*  Had a store recently when I was looking at something that was NOS (and therefore not under warranty) who was trying to charge me pretty much the full price for it, and when I mentioned it was not new, had no warranty and they basically said they didn't have any responsibility, his snotty response was "take it or leave it,buddy"....and I left it. That same guy in a couple of years will moan about the unfair competition from the internet, with the way he was selling his stuff I could buy from the shadiest place on the net and not be treated any worse.

Last edited by bigkid

I've pretty much have had mostly good luck with pre-orders.  My LHS has never got it wrong except once when I gave up asking when my engine was in.  Another year went by and it had been in his case and was being demoed to other customers.  When I finally asked again and he pulled it out of his demo case, I did not accept it as a new pre-order and did not buy it because it wasn't brand new any more and I was kind of mad about it.  His mistake was he never called me to tell me it was in.  He did, however, order a different engine that was in stock at MTH and gave me the pre-order price -- so the love was still there and I continue to buy from him because they're a great shop.

I do like pre-ordering with the the online sellers like Mr. Muffins or Trainworld because they will exchange emails to confirm or actually have a check out receipt for pre-orders.  This eliminates that question, "Did he or didn't he remember to write that down", and it also confirms the pre-order price in writing.   

All of my prior pre-orders have been from 3rd Rail / GGD and I've been happy with all of them.  I have a current pre-order on a Lionel item, but it's a switcher, with a simple color scheme.  Aside from the aforementioned importer, I'd be hard pressed to commit over $1K to any pre-order item, as, sooner or later, it will show up on the resale market and, by then, its foibles will be known.

About five years ago, I bought a Lionel train set - the Southern Pacific Black Widow FT one. I expected it to have command control and features generally competitive with MTH. I was so disappointed I haven’t ever bought another modern Lionel product.

and I’ve preordered twice and never got what I preordered.

I haven’t sworn off either though. Maybe someday.

Was the set cataloged with TMCC?

@NYC 428 posted:

No excuse just the facts, three rail "O" will never be up to the standards of HO.



HO doesn't have a "standard", bub.  It's a scale.

I try to like all model trains.....but some people have an.....attitude.

There's just as much junk in HO as there is in practically every scale.



Your quite correct HO is a scale, however, it has quite a number of standards, you may to check out below.

And if anyone has an attitude it's you BUB!

NMRA Standards and Recommended Practices

@NYC 428 posted:

HO doesn't have a "standard", bub.  It's a scale.

I try to like all model trains.....but some people have an.....attitude.

There's just as much junk in HO as there is in practically every scale.



Your quite correct HO is a scale, however, it has quite a number of standards, you may to check out below.

And if anyone has an attitude it's you BUB!

NMRA Standards and Recommended Practices

So....everyone who buys HO scale trains has an NMRA layout?

"So....everyone who buys HO scale trains has an NMRA layout?"

"HO doesn't have a "standard"

How the end user builds there layout is up to them.  However, the manufactures of HO scale equipment follow the NMRA standards pertaining to HO.

Your comment "HO doesn't have a standard" is incorrect.

"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink"  so sad

Last edited by NYC 428

Well back to the original topic.

I only pre-ordered one item and that was the 18005 in 1991.  I resold it before I took delivery.  Now days it's just to easy and cheap to pick things up on the secondary market.  I must add there has never been a train that I just had to have.  I understand how that would significantly change the situation. 

I can also understand the frustration of ordering X and getting Y or having problems right out of the box.   That's another reason I want to see it operate in person before buying it (one of my justifications for "needing"  to go to  York.)

No. I was new to the hobby and didn’t know anything. I had bought an MTH starter set and it had PS3.0 and assumed Lionel would be the equivalent. I had forgotten about the old forward/neutral/reverse thing from the ‘70s (to me) and was shocked the train still ran that way when the MTH one was so much more sophisticated.

Well it’s a good thing Lionel that Lionel has stepped up! I think even their most basic starter sets come with a Lion Chief remote. I also think Lionel has come along ways even with he past five years.

@aussteve posted:

Well back to the original topic.

I only pre-ordered one item and that was the 18005 in 1991.  I resold it before I took delivery.  Now days it's just to easy and cheap to pick things up on the secondary market.  I must add there has never been a train that I just had to have.  I understand how that would significantly change the situation.

I can also understand the frustration of ordering X and getting Y or having problems right out of the box.   That's another reason I want to see it operate in person before buying it (one of my justifications for "needing"  to go to  York.)

Wow! No pre orders in 30 years! I am finding just the opposite experience after taking a break from the hobby for six years. Before my hiatus. Lionel would make a ton of stuff and you could always find what you are looking for at blow out prices long after release.

Now that I have come back and have just discovered Lionel’s Legacy system I am on a locomotive buying spree to catch up. However, it’s not like the old days. Trying to find a Providence and Worcester SD70 that just came out: gone! How about the Legacy Central Vermont RS-11? The one that no one likes because of the “wrong” paint scheme? Can’t find one anywhere. People that have them aren’t giving them up either. It’s a very different market out there than just a few years ago. To me, if you want the good high end stuff, preorder it if you like it.

@NYC 428 posted:

HO doesn't have a "standard", bub.  It's a scale.

I try to like all model trains.....but some people have an.....attitude.

There's just as much junk in HO as there is in practically every scale.



Your quite correct HO is a scale, however, it has quite a number of standards, you may to check out below.

And if anyone has an attitude it's you BUB!

NMRA Standards and Recommended Practices

The NMRA standards have specifications for O scale too.  They even have deep flange specs.  ...And specs for O27.

Last edited by rplst8

Apparently pretty soon.   Amazing that Lionel is doing everything wrong, yet they're the last man standing.

Come on John, your one of the guys that finds the problems when things are delivered.

They're not doing everything wrong. Just alot more wrong lately then they have in the past.

Mike Wolf isn't retiring because no one is buying his trains due to defects.

However. I'm inclined to think Lionel sales may begin to suffer if they can't at least remember how to make a 4 wheel freight truck that works correctly.

Apparently pretty soon.   Amazing that Lionel is doing everything wrong, yet they're the last man standing.

All I wish for is that some of these people that are unhappy with their Lionel legacy locomotives be willing to sell them to me. I don't understand why someone would start a thread:

- Saying they NEVER would have bought this Lionel locomotive if they had seen it first

- They hate the color and and complain so much that other posters are telling them: "Send it back!!"

- Yet, when others line up saying, "Hey! I've been looking for that locomotive! I will buy it from you!" The OP clams up and discovers that they now want to keep their $500 Lionel locomotive they "hate" so much.

I honestly think that some people are being overly dramatic with their complaints of Lionel.  They want to keep their $500 locomotive just so they can enjoy complaining about it!

@RickO posted:

Come on John, your one of the guys that finds the problems when things are delivered.

They're not doing everything wrong. Just alot more wrong lately then they have in the past.

Mike Wolf isn't retiring because no one is buying his trains due to defects.

However. I'm inclined to think Lionel sales may begin to suffer if they can't at least remember how to make a 4 wheel freight truck that works correctly.

I think Lionel is doing just fine, sales wise. The pandemic has people shut in and they are rediscovering the joys of building a layout and Lionel is benefiting.

Hear those squealing brakes?? That's the sound of the MTH train slowing down to full stop.  The reason why really doesn't matter at this point.

I strictly collect L but have not pre-ordered or even ordered anything new since 2017.  That was the year standard O freight was fitted with thumbtack couplers and sprung “looking” trucks.  I’ve been sitting idling on a siding watching all the wiffs by L go by on quality, colors and trucks again ever since.   When they finally get their ”s“ back in one sock again I will then the slowly pull back out onto the mainline.  

@RickO posted:

Come on John, your one of the guys that finds the problems when things are delivered.

They're not doing everything wrong. Just alot more wrong lately then they have in the past.

Mike Wolf isn't retiring because no one is buying his trains due to defects.

However. I'm inclined to think Lionel sales may begin to suffer if they can't at least remember how to make a 4 wheel freight truck that works correctly.

I find problems with all brands, it's not just Lionel.  Personally, I think that the MTH PS/3 electronics was a step back, it's vastly more complex for very little gain in functionality.  The number of defective new boards I receive from MTH is far and away a much greater percentage than I receive from Lionel.

Don't even get me started on MTH's lame "wireless" drawbar debacle!

Now that I have come back and have just discovered Lionel’s Legacy system I am on a locomotive buying spree to catch up. However, it’s not like the old days. Trying to find a Providence and Worcester SD70 that just came out: gone! How about the Legacy Central Vermont RS-11? The one that no one likes because of the “wrong” paint scheme? Can’t find one anywhere. People that have them aren’t giving them up either. It’s a very different market out there than just a few years ago. To me, if you want the good high end stuff, preorder it if you like it.

I think you have hit on one of the situations where pre-ordering may be wise.  If it is a locomotive for, shall we call it, an underappreciated road, or a unique item, then pre-ordering makes more sense.  In a BTO world these are the items where there are less likely to be a surplus floating around, and they are also the items that are most likely to be cancelled. 

In a sense GRJ is right, somehow Lionel has ended up where they were years ago, if not the last man standing, at the very least the predominant maker ( no offense to Atlas or Third rail, just their scope is different).

On the other hand as has been discussed many times, there isn't all that much choice if you are buying new stuff even with MTH around, in the sense that in an oligopoly the lack of choice means quality usually doesn't differ much and that is my impression. The US car industry was an oligopoly and until they faced real competition, their quality was indifferent in any real measure. Even w luxury cars that was a problem,Benz had/has a cachet about it, but for all the German engineering had real quality problems, difficult to fix,expensive to fix....but until Lexis and Infiniti came into being they had no reason to change,that scared them.



- Yet, when others line up saying, "Hey! I've been looking for that locomotive! I will buy it from you!" The OP clams up and discovers that they now want to keep their $500 Lionel locomotive they "hate" so much.

I honestly think that some people are being overly dramatic with their complaints of Lionel.  They want to keep their $500 locomotive just so they can enjoy complaining about it!

The problem with this logic is that the time to buy and own some of these locos is limited.  The person obviously wants the item, but if they sell they have no recourse to get what they were promised and paid for.  Hopefully if enough ire is raised at the non-delivery, or delivery of incorrect items, some remedy might be offered to make the customer whole.  

For instance, I saw some other tread about the color green being wrong on some item, and Lionel is actually sending new shells to customers. It has yet to happen, but it’s the right way to handle it.  

People have a right to demand they get what they paid for.  Imagine ordering a new truck with a V8 and it arriving with a V6, a bike horn, and a reverse light that flickers. Would you take delivery of it from the dealer?

@rplst8 posted:

The problem with this logic is that the time to buy and own some of these locos is limited.  The person obviously wants the item, but if they sell they have no recourse to get what they were promised and paid for.  Hopefully if enough ire is raised at the non-delivery, or delivery of incorrect items, some remedy might be offered to make the customer whole.  

For instance, I saw some other tread about the color green being wrong on some item, and Lionel is actually sending new shells to customers. It has yet to happen, but it’s the right way to handle it.  

People have a right to demand they get what they paid for.  Imagine ordering a new truck with a V8 and it arriving with a V6, a bike horn, and a reverse light that flickers. Would you take delivery of it from the dealer?

Exactly, it took 17 months to find out that the promised boiler front for the J3a Hudson 5416 would NOT be delivered.  During that time there were multiple threads about this engine not being what was expected and NO ONE said on any of those threads that they would like to buy the engine from the original purchasers.

Last edited by GregM
@rplst8 posted:

The problem with this logic is that the time to buy and own some of these locos is limited.  The person obviously wants the item, but if they sell they have no recourse to get what they were promised and paid for.  Hopefully if enough ire is raised at the non-delivery, or delivery of incorrect items, some remedy might be offered to make the customer whole.  

For instance, I saw some other tread about the color green being wrong on some item, and Lionel is actually sending new shells to customers. It has yet to happen, but it’s the right way to handle it.  

People have a right to demand they get what they paid for.  Imagine ordering a new truck with a V8 and it arriving with a V6, a bike horn, and a reverse light that flickers. Would you take delivery of it from the dealer?

I'm sorry, but no.  Sure, you have a right to be unhappy if you don't like it.  However, if you are going to complain on OGR that the engine you pre-ordered has the wrong paint scheme and go so far as to say: "If I saw this locomotive before I bought it I never would have purchased it" and yet turn down all offers from people who want the locomotive and will pay you what you paid for it, then I am waving the the BS flag.  Its called being overly dramatic and over stating your case.

This is especially so when the locomotive as delivered looks almost exactly like it was pictured in the catalog.

BTW, I must have missed an announcement where Lionel is sending replacement shells for a recently released locomotive. Which locomotive is Lionel sending replacement shells for?

All I wish for is that some of these people that are unhappy with their Lionel legacy locomotives be willing to sell them to me. I don't understand why someone would start a thread:

- Saying they NEVER would have bought this Lionel locomotive if they had seen it first

- They hate the color and and complain so much that other posters are telling them: "Send it back!!"

- Yet, when others line up saying, "Hey! I've been looking for that locomotive! I will buy it from you!" The OP clams up and discovers that they now want to keep their $500 Lionel locomotive they "hate" so much.

I honestly think that some people are being overly dramatic with their complaints of Lionel.  They want to keep their $500 locomotive just so they can enjoy complaining about it!

This is really the point of the whole thread.  Yes, there are problems, but there is little choice or options.  Simply buy and enjoy, or don't.  Either way, BE HAPPY!

Wow! No pre orders in 30 years! I am finding just the opposite experience after taking a break from the hobby for six years. Before my hiatus. Lionel would make a ton of stuff and you could always find what you are looking for at blow out prices long after release.

Now that I have come back and have just discovered Lionel’s Legacy system I am on a locomotive buying spree to catch up. However, it’s not like the old days. Trying to find a Providence and Worcester SD70 that just came out: gone! How about the Legacy Central Vermont RS-11? The one that no one likes because of the “wrong” paint scheme? Can’t find one anywhere. People that have them aren’t giving them up either. It’s a very different market out there than just a few years ago. To me, if you want the good high end stuff, preorder it if you like it.

Just to update: thanks to PH1975 I now have that Providence and Worcester SD70!
yeah! Thank you PH1975

I'm sorry, but no.  Sure, you have a right to be unhappy if you don't like it.  However, if you are going to complain on OGR that the engine you pre-ordered has the wrong paint scheme and go so far as to say: "If I saw this locomotive before I bought it I never would have purchased it" and yet turn down all offers from people who want the locomotive and will pay you what you paid for it, then I am waving the the BS flag.  Its called being overly dramatic and over stating your case.

Not sure who crowned you king of deciding what is and isn’t “BS” and/or dramatic.  People are free to share their experiences, both to warn others and to see if others are having a similar problem.  What happens between them and the dealer/manufacture and whether they want to sell their item is no one else’s business.

BTW, I must have missed an announcement where Lionel is sending replacement shells for a recently released locomotive. Which locomotive is Lionel sending replacement shells for?

I think it was in the missing J3a boiler front thread, but I can’t find it.

Well it’s a good thing Lionel that Lionel has stepped up! I think even their most basic starter sets come with a Lion Chief remote. I also think Lionel has come along ways even with he past five years.

Do they have adjustable volume? I was under the impression they had stuff that was volume off or on but no variability. That’s the kind of stuff that keeps me leery of the new Lionel stuff.

@rplst8 posted:

Not sure who crowned you king of deciding what is and isn’t “BS” and/or dramatic.  People are free to share their experiences, both to warn others and to see if others are having a similar problem.  What happens between them and the dealer/manufacture and whether they want to sell their item is no one else’s business.

I think it was in the missing J3a boiler front thread, but I can’t find it.

Not “King of the Dramatic.” Just applying common sense.  If you are so angry about a $500 locomotive that you bring it to everyone’s attention and say that you wish you never bought it, is overly dramatic when you decide to keep it anyway. Especially when you can get a full refund.  😉😏

If you see it and don’t like it, don’t buy it.

If you buy it and don’t like it, sell it.

If you buy it and don’t like it but keep it anyway. Then why complain?

Last edited by Madockawando

Not “King of the Dramatic.” Just applying common sense.  

For me common sense is getting what you ordered and paid for.

If you are so angry about a $500 locomotive that you bring it to everyone’s attention and say that you wish you never bought it, is overly dramatic when you decide to keep it anyway. Especially when you can get a full refund.  😉😏

If you see it and don’t like it, don’t buy it.

If you buy it and don’t like it, sell it.

If you buy it and don’t like it but keep it anyway. Then why complain?

Apparently you’ve never heard of opportunity cost.

@Lionelski posted:

IMHO, this thread is not fun, interesting or informative anymore.

How does one unsubscribe from a single thread?

Look at the top of the page. There is a red bell with 2 lines on each side of it just to the right of “Again!” (The last word in the title of the thread)  Click on it and it will change color to blue and the lines will disappear. You are now unsubscribed.

Last edited by Hudson J1e
@Lionelski posted:

IMHO, this thread is not fun, interesting or informative anymore.

How does one unsubscribe from a single thread?

Little Bell at the top of the page next to the topic name.  Click on it to follow or unfollow a topic.

IMHO this forum is not very fun, interesting or informative anymore.  Not enough talk about trains and mostly complainers.  This is sad.  I stay for about ten posters who make things relevant.

@NYC 428 posted:

I believe that the vase majority of whiners found on this forum don't even own the item there complaining about.  Thus the inability to sell the product in question to someone willing to pay full price.

Also notice how its the same people over and over doing all the whining.

What’s worse I wonder...

Commiserating with fellow members of the hobby about similar issues they’ve encountered, if not the exact same one?

or...

Complaining about a “whiner” which they could simply ignore?

@NYC 428 posted:

All I can say is MADE IN CHINA !!  The American manufactures have little to say about QC.  Once you send your tooling over there it becomes the property of the company producing the models.  If you don't like what they turn out ....its too bad, want your tooling back,,,pay for it.

I've read enough of this nonsense, and it really needs to stop. QC is not the reason model train manufacturing should be brought back to the U.S. I have become so frustrated with O gauge/scale/P48, that I decided to try and start a new train company in my spare time. From communications and observations, I have found it's not the manufacturers in China that dictate the QC of a product, it's the company selling model trains. If the model train company takes a laisse fair approach, you get the same result in the product. The HO train companies I have observed that put out top notch products are in China watching after their product from the first molding to final inspection and packing. They don't OK a pre-production model half way around the world and then sit and wait for the models to arrive. That lack of leadership and management is how you end up with poor QC. And I have been around enough workers in the U.S. who do just as poor of a job as those who "Make in China" per your claim.



40FT ISO DRY v5

And before I get the rebuttal that I don't know what I'm talking about, this is a prototypical 40ft. ISO container side that I have researched and rescaled to 1/48 (O) with accuracy to 0.00001". This took me over a week to find sources, double and triple check my math, and create in CAD, ensuring angles, measurements, bottom C rail and top rail were dead on or as close as mathematically possible. This one side costs $0.96 to produce. The mold itself was quoted at over $9,000 from multiple American manufacturers. To have 5,000 sides (2,500 containers) and to recoup the cost of the mold, each side would cost $5.52 (using $9,000 for the mold.) That's before American labor, paint, packaging and my profit are included. Compare that to $0.68 per side and $4,700 mold quotes from China. The gap grows bigger as the quantity per run is increased. That is why companies choose to manufacture in China. Whether my models are made in the U.S. (my preference) or another country, the QC of this container will be as stringent as the rest of the effort I have put into this model. My QC standards. So saying such-and-such a company has mediocre QC because a product was made in China is ignorant and makes that company look really lazy.

Attachments

Images (1)
  • 40FT ISO DRY v5

I got sucked into this thread, so I guess I have to reply on topic now. The only time I have ever pre-ordered was over three years ago because it was an "I have to have it" order. The items were made by AtlasO (my favorite manufacturer), and I knew the rolling stock would be as I expected. I have a very focused agenda for my layout, and I want specific rolling stock and locomotives. Otherwise, I shop second hand if the item is useful or will pick up a fixer upper every now and then.

I've read enough of this nonsense, and it really needs to stop. QC is not the reason model train manufacturing should be brought back to the U.S. I have become so frustrated with O gauge/scale/P48, that I decided to try and start a new train company in my spare time. From communications and observations, I have found it's not the manufacturers in China that dictate the QC of a product, it's the company selling model trains. If the model train company takes a laisse fair approach, you get the same result in the product. The HO train companies I have observed that put out top notch products are in China watching after their product from the first molding to final inspection and packing. They don't OK a pre-production model half way around the world and then sit and wait for the models to arrive. That lack of leadership and management is how you end up with poor QC. And I have been around enough workers in the U.S. who do just as poor of a job as those who "Make in China" per your claim.



40FT ISO DRY v5

And before I get the rebuttal that I don't know what I'm talking about, this is a prototypical 40ft. ISO container side that I have researched and rescaled to 1/48 (O) with accuracy to 0.00001". This took me over a week to find sources, double and triple check my math, and create in CAD, ensuring angles, measurements, bottom C rail and top rail were dead on or as close as mathematically possible. This one side costs $0.96 to produce. The mold itself was quoted at over $9,000 from multiple American manufacturers. To have 5,000 sides (2,500 containers) and to recoup the cost of the mold, each side would cost $5.52 (using $9,000 for the mold.) That's before American labor, paint, packaging and my profit are included. Compare that to $0.68 per side and $4,700 mold quotes from China. The gap grows bigger as the quantity per run is increased. That is why companies choose to manufacture in China. Whether my models are made in the U.S. (my preference) or another country, the QC of this container will be as stringent as the rest of the effort I have put into this model. My QC standards. So saying such-and-such a company has mediocre QC because a product was made in China is ignorant and makes that company look really lazy.

Stewart, make sure you contact me if you decide to do ANY kind of promoting of your new company here on the forum.

Thanks!

I really tried not to get sucked into this post. I I won't pre-order from Lionel. Aside from the fact that I am trying to reduce train inventory, I can still buy stuff I like. And the Pacemaker steam engine Lionel has in the new catalog really caught my eye. But what color red? The last time I pre-ordered from Lionel was the 2007 Texas Special Legacy passenger set. A total disappointment from both color shade and quality. On the color shade, I wanted glossy like the Texas Special F3 set Lionel did in the late 90's. Even Mike Regan couldn't give me guidance on that. And on the QC side, the engine couldn't pull the cars that came with it up a 2% grade.

Lionel could describe color in the catalog or on their site if they wanted to do that. QC is a different issue. I NEVER had these problems from MTH. All you had to do was talk to Andy or Rich. They KNEW what was in the catalog.

Gerry

As they say on reddit, "First world problems"

Vote with your dollars. We always have, since 1792 according to Wikipedia. (Canadians and the rest of the world excluded of course).

Side note, my only pre-order was in maybe 2002, the Lionel CP SD90 that nobody wants to buy. It went back for reprogramming, it had problems with it couplers, it still lurches, it still shorts on certain switch setups, but dang if that stinker just keeps on running. I mean I run it just so I can break it and get rid of it, and it won't break. It has "Trainmaster" style blinder-inner flange trucks and only two rollers, issues Lionel and MTH have since addressed. And the color isn't bad.

My experience with pre-orderes has been very limited, but good, so far.

I have pre-ordered a couple of MTH engines from a Forum Sponsor that turned out well.

I have pre-ordered several LC+ engines from my LHS that also turned out well.

My last pre-order is a Legacy engine from a Forum Sponsor that is scheduled to be shipped by Lionel in July, 2021. We will see how that one turns out. Arnold

Call them "pre orders", "reservations", whatever. There are no guarantees. Case in point: we "reserved" a U Haul truck about a month in advance. Two days before the pickup date, we were told that the size we "reserved" was not available, so I guess "reserving" something is only as good as the paper it's printed on.

On a positive note, we were given a slightly larger rig at the same price, so we were able to move our son as planned...🙂

Mark in Oregon

I have pre-ordered frequently in the past, and have had no bad experiences. I have several items on preorder now, one of them being a pretty costly (to me) item, and will just patiently wait until they arrive. The only thing I was not particularly thrilled with was being charged for the purchase up front, well before it was made or delivered. Never had that happen before. No big deal, though, because now at least one of the three existing preorders has been fully paid for.

The late Bobbye Hall, owner of Hall's Hobby House in Dallas,TX, also created Hallmark Models.  She imported brass trains in O, HO and N scale.  She became  known by the builders in Japan and Korea as The Dragon Lady because she took the bull by the horns and demanded Quality.  If it was inferior she would flat out Refuse a model!

This occured with the HO scale brass Cotton Belt 4-4-2 she intended to import in the 70s.  It just wouldn't run, period.  When she refused it, NorthWest Short Line purchased the entire run and advertised them for $89.98, if memory serves me well.  They were offered As Is, No Return!  Avid SSW fans either remotored or made static models out of them.

Model trains could still be manufactured in the U.S. of America.  Just look at the number of dedicated manufacturers that still do, both large and small.  They deserve a tip of an engineer's cap or conductor's hat, or both, for believing in putting America First!  Respect to each of you!

If you wanna get sentimental, watch the late great Kate Smith as she sings God Bless America, on YouTube.  It'll Make Your Day!

The late Bobbye Hall, owner of Hall's Hobby House in Dallas,TX, also created Hallmark Models.  She imported brass trains in O, HO and N scale.  She became  known by the builders in Japan and Korea as The Dragon Lady because she took the bull by the horns and demanded Quality.  If it was inferior she would flat out Refuse a model!

This occured with the HO scale brass Cotton Belt 4-4-2 she intended to import in the 70s.  It just wouldn't run, period.  When she refused it, NorthWest Short Line purchased the entire run and advertised them for $89.98, if memory serves me well.  They were offered As Is, No Return!  Avid SSW fans either remotored or made static models out of them.

Model trains could still be manufactured in the U.S. of America.  Just look at the number of dedicated manufacturers that still do, both large and small.  They deserve a tip of an engineer's cap or conductor's hat, or both, for believing in putting America First!  Respect to each of you!

If you wanna get sentimental, watch the late great Kate Smith as she sings God Bless America, on YouTube.  It'll Make Your Day!

My Hallmark Burlington O5b 4-8-4 was a piece of junk. The front steps were falling apart out of the box, the pilot was the wrong shape and didn't even attempt to simulate the prototype's drop coupler, my Tyco 4-6-2 ran better and you had to practice yoga to get the boiler off.   I never bothered to try and paint it, I fixed it up as best I could and sold it.

Never had any issues with PFM or Westside.

Rusty

Rusty, wonder why Miss Hall didn't refuse the Q's O5b as she did with the Cotton Belt Atlantic?

There happened to be an area dude in Dallas (I won't mention his name, though I believe he is now deceased) who made several bad decisions that Bobbye missed.  Perhaps the Burlington 4-8-4 might very well have been one model she didn't inspect until it was too late?  This is only speculatiuon you understand, however it is a remote possiblity just he same.  I seem to recall that some of the Hallmark Models HO scale Katy heavyweights fell apart as a result of improper soldering by the Korean builder who she contracted with to do the job.

If any other modelers who have had issues with any Hallmark Models brass products please let OGR members know which ones to look out for before they make a purchase they'll later regret.

Joe

Last edited by Trinity River Bottoms Boomer

If manufacturing in the USA is so difficult, why do German, Japanese and Korean cars get built here? And the QC of cars today is light years ahead of what it was 50 years ago. Short term profit maximization isn't necessarily a good business decision.

My understanding (and I'm sure someone will correct me) is that small electronics (think iPhones) aren't made here because they need to keep the factory going 24/7, and they can't get reliable maintenance people.

Gerry

@gmorlitz posted:

If manufacturing in the USA is so difficult, why do German, Japanese and Korean cars get built here? And the QC of cars today is light years ahead of what it was 50 years ago. Short term profit maximization isn't necessarily a good business decision.

My understanding (and I'm sure someone will correct me) is that small electronics (think iPhones) aren't made here because they need to keep the factory going 24/7, and they can't get reliable maintenance people.

Ger

Neither quality issues being built in the US, or the 'difficulty of manufacturing' is the reason that products are made in China. Apple makes the Iphone in China because they can do so cheaply, on a then 600 dollar Iphone (now 1000!), the cost of labor was like 30 bucks, the most expensive part was the phone chipset, that is basically custom made processors. The reason stuff is being made in China and elsewhere offshore are cheap wages, other factors, like regulation, taxes, etc, etc, are pretty much balanced by factors like shipping and not having control over the factories. Even with the increase in wages in China (companies are now moving to now cheaper places, like Vietnam), the workers are not making anywhere near middle class wages, they can't afford the product they are buying and those jobs have no benefits, like vacation time, medical care (China has a national system, but it is a joke), disability and the like.  All the other claims fall apart when analyzed (and yes, I have read the actual cases studies out of places like Harvard Business School), it is about cheap labor and labor markets where the workers have little recourse since the government is the not so silent partner of almost every business.

With something like trains, 'our trains', it is such a low volume business that has a need to make a lot of money/unit sold, that it would be impossible to make stuff here and pay what is considered a living wage. Lionel is not a public company, nor was MTH (I don't think Atlas is either), so their figures are unknown, but given the nature of the business, they have to maintain large margins to give the returns the people who own them expect, especially with Lionel being owned by private equity firm(s) over the years. It is possible they may build the components in China and do final assembly here, for example, in that model it might be possible to do it and maintain margins. Another model that might work is if some heavily automated plant here in the US that does contract work could take on the job of building the stuff, such a plant would have relatively few workers, though, but could be flexible, especially if 3D printing manufacturing becomes more robust then it is today (and I am not up on the latest levels of 3D printing).

As far as quality goes, that has almost nothing to do with the workers, the cars produced in US plants for foreign makers for example are at the same level quality as the ones made overseas, the whispered "only buy a toyota made in Japan" is a myth, not born out by stats.  Even the US auto industry, that still has its problems, have quality levels that are just a tad below their foreign competitors. Quality is all about process to build a product, it is about how a product is designed and developed a lot more than by who does it. It is in vendor relationships, it is in designing in quality rather than inspecting it in, it is about measuring quality and the cost of quality (ie what it costs when it goes wrong). It also means having control over the whole process from one end to the other, when you outsource it, you lose a lot of what is required. Yeah, companies have SLA's with the offshore manufacturers, but they are about as meaningful as the disclaimers on the back of tickets in terms of getting sued, they mean little, because when you sign on for those manufacturers, you have no leverage, they own the tooling, they control everything. You can suggest improvements, but if all the plant manager cares about it putting out X product a day, it won't matter. Lionel factors this 'cost of quality' into their model (as does every offshore manufacturer), and figures whatever a defective unit costs them, it is factored into the production run..and it isn't exactly like the 1980s, when Roger Smith and GM produced a generation of turkey mobiles, where you had clearly better cars you could buy.

In a nutshell, as a consumer, you basically know that the product you buy may or may not work well, because you don't have much choice if you want the new offering.

As they say on reddit, "First world problems"

Vote with your dollars. We always have, since 1792 according to Wikipedia. (Canadians and the rest of the world excluded of course).

Side note, my only pre-order was in maybe 2002, the Lionel CP SD90 that nobody wants to buy. It went back for reprogramming, it had problems with it couplers, it still lurches, it still shorts on certain switch setups, but dang if that stinker just keeps on running. I mean I run it just so I can break it and get rid of it, and it won't break. It has "Trainmaster" style blinder-inner flange trucks and only two rollers, issues Lionel and MTH have since addressed. And the color isn't bad.

Well, until the 1830s or 40's you could use the old Spanish pieces of 8 as well

Interesting thread here.  FWIW, I stopped pre-ordering about five, maybe more, years ago.  The waits were just too long and unpredictable.  Not getting a specific locomotive is, as mentioned previously, a first world problem.  If I obsessively want something, I search ebay for what appears to be a responsible seller.  Also, I scour the web occasionally to see if any dealers have the item.

I am wary of Lionel products because they often arrive with quality control issues.  MTH hasn't offered anything new for several years now.  Consequently, as others have said, I don't read the catalogs carefully anymore.  As it is, I have plenty of locomotives and rolling stock.  I'm kind of put off by the manufacturers' entry into politically-oriented (Lionel and MTH products.  I guess that I'd rather keep this hobby neutral.

Finally, during the past several years, I've been experiencing price resistance.  For example, I just don't want to pay hundreds of dollars to a single MTH Premier A unit.  Anyway, good thread here.

@wb47 posted:

I have not had problems preordering Lionel or 3rd rail. Could 3rd rail exist without pre-orders? Maybe Lionel could but with reduced selection.

With 3rd rail, you better pre-order. With Lionel, there is excess product available from distributors and large retailers. These guys order extras. There's nothing like that with 3rd rail. As far as I know, Lionel is the only O gauge company to have distributors. MTH carried their excess inventory.

If  Lionel were to offer " Inspected- Tested- Quality Assured,"  that will be my only future pre-order.   3 strikes on BTO locomotives in a year that had problems.   I would love to order the new Acela sets but there is NO way I am putting that kind of money toward a company's product that sends out faulty trains more often than not.  Fooled me 3 times.  Not again!

Last edited by VistaDomeScott

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