LionChief Gateway Project (3-29-21 Update)

I would like a Bluetooth device I could mount in one of my Box Cars and play music, train sounds, voice or what ever comes up. That would be cool too.

i have a blue tooth speaker I temporarily mount in a car but it has to he recharged regularly. If you had something like that where track power can charge it up, I am all in

@PSU1980 Groove cube or this one would work.  You can power it with this.  

Brendan

@PSU1980, the power board @Brendan just suggested definitely seems like a good idea, however you just gave me an idea, I think I will try to whip up a soundboard that can be controlled from the universal LionChief remote. I would use the speed knob for sound track selection. You could turn the knob for a certain sound and press a button to trigger it. I would technically be simulating a train to the remote, I could probably repurpose the bell button for light control in cars with lights.

Sounds like a terrific add-on to the existing technology and hardware.  Keep us informed please.  LionChief is one the great inexpensive command control values in model railroading.

@PSU1980 I just went to microcenter and picked up components to prototype the Bluetooth box car module I had in mind. This is not going to be a simple Bluetooth speaker but a standalone mp3/mp4 file player that uses an SD card for storage. If I can figure out the code side of it it will be controlled via the LC universal remote. 

I feel like I should probably end up putting the audio module discussion in a topic of it's own soon. The dual speakers (stereo audio) plus the microcontroller, Bluetooth module, mp3 module, and power supply all fit within 1-1/4 inches of hight, 4-3/4 inches of length, and 1-3/8 inches of width. That has the option of running on a battery or a power pickup from the car (probably a light bulb wire). 

Here are some pictures of that sound package: 

There is a thread in the O27 forum about putting sounds in cars. Lots of great ideas there, for using track voltage. 

Brendan posted:

@PSU1980 Groove cube or this one would work.  You can power it with this.  

Brendan

 

Brendan,

that’s a cool find for stepping down the power. Is it a constant DC output, if the input AC varies? I power my track with a z4000. Somewhere between 18 and 22 Vac. I’m definitely not consistent. 
thanks

Marty

Marty R posted:

Brendan posted:

@PSU1980 Groove cube or this one would work.  You can power it with this.  

Brendan

 

Brendan,

that’s a cool find for stepping down the power. Is it a constant DC output, if the input AC varies? I power my track with a z4000. Somewhere between 18 and 22 Vac. I’m definitely not consistent. 
thanks

Marty

@Marty R I can answer that, The voltage you chose with the little screw potentiometer is fixed to within a few thousandths of a volt. I just tested an almost identical buck converter board on my Z1000 transformer and as long as the transformer was putting out more than 6 volts I was getting an almost perfect constant 5 volts output. That regulator can handle more than these transformers put out. Just test with a meter to make sure you have the output dialed in correctly first since these are adjustable regulators.

For several years, a number of my BlueRail Trains equipped bluetooth controlled engines included an on-board bluetooth amplifier and speaker. The BlueRail app connects with the amp and provides a wide variety of sounds. Power to the amp is regulated to 5V and is sourced from either track AC or DC.

BOB WALKER posted:

For several years, a number of my BlueRail Trains equipped bluetooth controlled engines included an on-board bluetooth amplifier and speaker. The BlueRail app connects with the amp and provides a wide variety of sounds. Power to the amp is regulated to 5V and is sourced from either track AC or DC.

Certainly a nice package there, nice to see, Even before I really got going into trains again like this I have heard of BlueRail. At this point I have a personal goal to get the official LC remote to send commands to a device of my own design and after that my plans open up a bit.

I will likely try to make a new sound board/amp package that gets triggered by the LC Universal remote(I would like to gauge the interest level in this on the forums) as an alternative to using phones. Maybe people would like the ability to keep cell phones out of the train room as a way to show kids these days that there are things that can be done without a smartphone. 

Also as I just added to my first post, my top priority end game right now is to create a gateway that allows me to add external speed limits and momentum to the LC remotes and official app. As we know the LC app's momentum and speed limit settings do not apply to the non app based remotes. You can't just set the speed limit in the app and then hand a child the LC remote with a new speed limit applied to it. Same thing with Momentum. If we want to simulate a heavily loaded LC based freight train with momentum, the only current option is to use the LC phone app. My gateway will in theory allow me to implement those options as a master setting for all remote options. That way when you want to impose a speed limit for anyone who uses any remote it will be an option. With expansion interfaces I should also be able to have my gateway allow multiple remotes on one LC engine at the same time. Maybe allow you to designate a supervisor remote that overrides all other remotes. maybe you want multiple remotes to be able to trigger the horns and bells separately. Maybe you want a horn only remote that ignores speed input that you can hand to any kid without the chance of them creating a collision situation. All this is possible now that I cracked the code of these remotes.

Sounds terrific.  I'd buy in as I have many LC and LC+ remotes and a universal remote.  I prefer dedicated remotes to smart devices.  I think the LionChief system is a great beginner's system and your plans seem to allow that to grow in features and complexity.  

And Lionel probably sells 100 to 1000 times as many LionChief equipped sets as Legacy systems each year. Just guessing.

Exactly, I mean you can literally buy several LCs for the price of one legacy anyway. plus however many Bluetooth LC engines already are out there. 

One thing I have in mind for my LC gateway is setting up an ATC or even ATO function. I in my simple two level track only layout that I setup so far, I have an issue where my LC based M7 can derail depending on the position of a track switch when coming down hill as it gains a bit too much speed for the switch to handle it seems. Well I will try and add sensors to the track that will add a temporary speed limit to the train on its way down the incline (and only when it heads down hill since I need the speed to make it up said incline) and release the limit after the switch. an option that may also allow me to run tighter turns at "full tilt". I imagine such speed zones would also be nice for those with layouts including hard to reach switches (that they may want to always run slowly over). I have had Fast Track remote switches for example that only like being run below half throttle due to a manufacturing defect in the switch.(In my case that switch has since been replaced at no charge thankfully)

Breakthrough update added to my original post. I can now connect the LC remote and app to my own interface. A critical step for my gateway. Just need yet another interface board to get a demo of the gateway up and running before 2020 hits. Let's see if I can get remote control remapping done in the next 24 hours.

I finally made a big enough breakthrough worth posting in this original thread. Watch my new update video to see the official Lionchief Remote app controlling some postwar operating accessories. https://youtu.be/ZtITYrEDdwc

Nice work.  Perhaps Lionel would be interested in contracting with you to develop this as full blown commercial project?

Landsteiner posted:

Nice work.  Perhaps Lionel would be interested in contracting with you to develop this as full blown commercial project?

Thank you, and as they say, your lips to God's ears lol. Either  that or a greenlight/LCS Partnership would be great. Though a contract would be a dream of course! I love my current job (Though not as cool as Lionel) but some contract stuff on the side would be amazing right now.

As soon as I can afford an LC+ locomotive I will be testing multi engine simultaneous controll from the app. I even have a plan to let you calibrate the speed of the locomotives.

In the meantime I will keep adding on new features to this gateway. I haven't run out of ideas yet. I would hope that the community can see this and possibly think of things they would like to do with LionChief if anything were possible. I have a feeling multi engine lash-ups are high on that list. 

Nice work Ryan...pretty cool engineering on your part!

-Russ 

I think it might be worth emailing Ryan Kunkle and/or David Olsen with links to your YouTube page and these threads.  Perhaps let them know you'd love to develop this further with their assistance/collaboration, and that perhaps they would consider providing you with a Legacy base and a couple of LionChief locos to facilitate this process.  State that you are open to anything from just their assistance to a formal developer status with Lionel, the latter with all the usual NDAs and lawyerly necessities, but that you realize it's their call.

If they are interested in the intellectual property perhaps a more formal contract and co-development arrangement (paid) could come now or down the road.  Back in the day, Lionel provided some folks who had technical skills (including a few who eventually became key Lionel employees) with early products for testing and suggestions. 

As you may know, for example, a guy named Jon Zahornacky developed TMCC receiver/command modules at the Electric Railroad Co.  He later became Lionel's chief technology officer and they bought out ERR from him.  Mike Reagan at TrainAmerica Studios, had Bob Krivacic design a similar device that was quite popular in the late 1990s and early 2000s, if I remember the years correctly.  These guys were gifted as product developers/engineers with day jobs but were entirely hobbyists in this regard, at least initially. 

Mike Reagan became an important executive at Lionel for many years in a variety of capacities.  Perhaps the current management are still open to such arrangements?  Worth a try.  If they say no, you can proceed on your own, since you are initially doing this for your own amusement and for the community good.  Hopefully they won't go all MTH on you and have their lawyers tell you you cannot develop or sell such products.  Obviously they cannot stop you from playing with the equipment in any way you like, whatever their lawyers say . They have no legal basis to do that. You bought it and can do with it whatever you like as long as you don't sell it. I very much doubt they will take that course, but it's a possibility.  Would be very disappointing if they did, and they would hear about it from lots of folks who benefited from the efforts at Train America and ERR in their day, including me.

AviatorRuss posted:

Nice work Ryan...pretty cool engineering on your part!

-Russ 

Thank you for the encouragement, My day job may be in software but hardware/software integration like this is my passion. I love writing code that does real world interaction. It's also a lot of fun to add new features and mostly do things that people tell me are not possible. If you throw enough time at it, almost anything is possible. Nothing beats having an idea and putting it into action.

Landsteiner posted:

I think it might be worth emailing Ryan Kunkle and/or David Olsen with links to your YouTube page and these threads.  Perhaps let them know you'd love to develop this further with their assistance/collaboration, and that perhaps they would consider providing you with a Legacy base and a couple of LionChief locos to facilitate this process.  State that you are open to anything from just their assistance to a formal developer status with Lionel, the latter with all the usual NDAs and lawyerly necessities, but that you realize it's their call.

If they are interested in the intellectual property perhaps a more formal contract and co-development arrangement (paid) could come now or down the road.  Back in the day, Lionel provided some folks who had technical skills (including a few who eventually became key Lionel employees) with early products for testing and suggestions. 

As you may know, for example, a guy named Jon Zahornacky developed TMCC receiver/command modules at the Electric Railroad Co.  He later became Lionel's chief technology officer and they bought out ERR from him.  Mike Reagan at TrainAmerica Studios, had Bob Krivacic design a similar device that was quite popular in the late 1990s and early 2000s, if I remember the years correctly.  These guys were gifted as product developers/engineers with day jobs but were entirely hobbyists in this regard, at least initially. 

Mike Reagan became an important executive at Lionel for many years in a variety of capacities.  Perhaps the current management are still open to such arrangements?  Worth a try.  If they say no, you can proceed on your own, since you are initially doing this for your own amusement and for the community good.  Hopefully they won't go all MTH on you and have their lawyers tell you you cannot develop or sell such products.  Obviously they cannot stop you from playing with the equipment in any way you like, whatever their lawyers say . They have no legal basis to do that. You bought it and can do with it whatever you like as long as you don't sell it. I very much doubt they will take that course, but it's a possibility.  Would be very disappointing if they did, and they would hear about it from lots of folks who benefited from the efforts at Train America and ERR in their day, including me.

I think I will have to build up some courage first! I only just had the breakthrough with the accessory control last night, There are a few more things I feel I must add first. I can send an email to them before hand but I know that Ryan Kunkle is going to be at Trainland in Lynbrook NY (about 45 minutes away from me) on Feb 8th. It might be a great follow up opportunity to any email I can send. I can hardly imagine being so lucky that things go as well as you have mentioned. Some official collaboration or contract would be like a dream come true for me. 

Getting my hands on a legacy base and loco would be great since I know the legacy protocol is already published online. So would be no be no big deal to interface my LC Gateway project with it. Doing things like allowing small children to run legacy engines via the LC remote (with restricted speeds) seems like a good idea to implement too.

I am starting to think everyone might have something to gain from a project like this.

Those are some inspiring stories. I wonder if anyone has ever said, "The best jobs start as hobbies", if not I want to coin that one lol. 

Completely getting shot down by Lionel would definitely suck, I don't even want to imagine that right now. Like you said, worst case I keep doing cool things on my side and showing people what is actually possible. I am thankful to have you on my side here, your comments are really getting me thinking about things I really couldn't have imagined with regards to all this going official stuff you mentioned here. Your getting me daydreaming here.

I really enjoyed the accessory and switch control video. It is amazing what you have been able to do with the app interface limited to the engine control buttons and slider.  I think you’re on the brink of opening up a very useful expansion of the Bluetooth app.

I’ve often thought that lionchief app control of accessories and switches would be great - such as a lionchief Bluetooth gantry crane controlled by the LC app.  Updated app interface pages for accessory control would be a plus too, similar to the LCS interface for command control accessories.

I’m not sure if each accessory should have Bluetooth receiver or if there should be a central gateway module that switches electric current on/off to each accessory. I like the idea of only needing power wires to the accessory for simplicity and easy set up, and it’s my understanding that Bluetooth receivers are relatively cheap.  The flip side would be the central gateway module with wired control to each accessory which would work with 120 years worth of accessories.  

All of this is similar to the current TMCC accessories controlled through the LCS WiFi app and conventional accessories controlled via an ASC2.  Bluetooth control has a big advantage though - fewer wires, less hardware, more flexibility through software and the app, cheaper and easier implementation.

I hope you do email them and you can work out some type of development agreement. Even if they don’t now, if you continue to develop your ideas and become a pesky competitor in layout control, they may want to partner or buy out down the road.

JD2035RR posted:

I really enjoyed the accessory and switch control video. It is amazing what you have been able to do with the app interface limited to the engine control buttons and slider.  I think you’re on the brink of opening up a very useful expansion of the Bluetooth app.

I’ve often thought that lionchief app control of accessories and switches would be great - such as a lionchief Bluetooth gantry crane controlled by the LC app.  Updated app interface pages for accessory control would be a plus too, similar to the LCS interface for command control accessories.

I’m not sure if each accessory should have Bluetooth receiver or if there should be a central gateway module that switches electric current on/off to each accessory. I like the idea of only needing power wires to the accessory for simplicity and easy set up, and it’s my understanding that Bluetooth receivers are relatively cheap.  The flip side would be the central gateway module with wired control to each accessory which would work with 120 years worth of accessories.  

All of this is similar to the current TMCC accessories controlled through the LCS WiFi app and conventional accessories controlled via an ASC2.  Bluetooth control has a big advantage though - fewer wires, less hardware, more flexibility through software and the app, cheaper and easier implementation.

I hope you do email them and you can work out some type of development agreement. Even if they don’t now, if you continue to develop your ideas and become a pesky competitor in layout control, they may want to partner or buy out down the road.

 

Thanks I am glad to hear you like it, this is first project that I am doing like this and it has been a great and fun experience so far. Community feedback like yours is great, I just got started and I was not aware of any limitations on the existing control systems. Besides hearing people say you can't do anything fancy with LionChief (a fact that I am clearly changing here and now). I am glad my efforts are impressing anyone at all. 

Getting a postwar Gantry Crane has been on my list of accessories to buy, as soon as I have one I can add Bluetooth to it for a demonstration. Maybe I will program a loading and unloading routine using it's electromagnet and my LC Gateway to trigger the routine. In fact I think I'll save the routines to a micro sd card for editing on a computer(as an option). A main goal of mine is to avoid using a full power desktop computer in any of this. Everything should be able to run off a few very low-cost modules.

I lean towards plug and play with a hundred and twenty years of accessories lol. Keep in mind the central method will definitely be way cheaper from a control hardware perspective. In many accessories you only adding one extra wire to the mix. I can still develop an accessory Bluetooth upgrade board. The crane would make sense to add a module to for the sake of not adding too many extra wires.

One of the next features on my list is saved macros that you can program and run from the LionChief remote.

I definitely will end up contacting them, fingers crossed on the outcome. Still need to prepare my boards further first. I like the way you think there lol. I have developed Android apps before and this would not be very much of a challenge to make a custom app for. For now I will keep hoping for endorsement at least of my integration with the LC system. For me, Legacy was too big of a leap for me to blindly make when I started with trains a few months ago. I couldn't know for sure if I was going to love the hobby as much as I do now. I feel like the current isolation of the two systems especially hurts the new guys like me. That's what really got me going with this gateway project in the first place. I want to add room to grow within LionChief. Also thanks to the introduction of LC+2.0 I really do have a path towards a full legacy system. I just have no plans on leaving my first train behind in the process. Wish me luck and thanks for your support.

Finally had a big breakthrough with the LC Remote. It is now talking to my Gateway board. https://youtu.be/YQC4aA-btDA

Now things are getting exciting!

Next up I will add the remote code to my main program and I will post a new postwar accessory video being controlled from the real remote and not just the app. 

Next up I also am going to test a limited way to choose announcements on regular LionChief locos. It won't quite be legacy level of control but it might be better than default.

As promised here is the demo video showing the lionchief remote controlling not only the current generation of LionChief locomotives but also some post-war stuff. https://youtu.be/Ie4wmCQ8vOg

I am also working on hardware to convert postwar locos to LionChief.  I have two methods of attack for this problem. One is to regulate the track power via lionchief, and have a helper board to do electro coupler control,lights and sound. And the other is to make a module that does it all on the locomotive side.

All sounds very inviting, but I'm not sure what the game plan is here.

BOB WALKER posted:

All sounds very inviting, but I'm not sure what the game plan is here.

I think the best way for me to sum it up is by stating my broad goal.

To expand what is possible with the LionChief remote/app.

And as a side project for those who want it I'm also going to look into adding TMCC / Legacy control of LionChief trains..

Brilliant stuff. Well done. Keep us posted please.

Ryaninspiron posted:

And as a side project for those who want it I'm also going to look into adding TMCC / Legacy control of LionChief trains..

When LionChief came out, the biggest issue people had is that they could not control LC trains with a TMCC/Legacy controller.  Lionchief Plus 2.0 fixes that issue as they are essentially TMCC engines with Bluetooth, but there are number of years worth of LC and LC+ that can not be controlled by the manufacturer's top of the line control system.  They are still producing LC that can not be controlled by Legacy/TMCC.  There is an opportunity to create a Legacy/TMCC to LC bridge.

Now as people use and enjoy Bluetooth control from their phone, all new locomotives come standard with a bluetooth receiver.  Isn't it great that everyone visiting your layout now has a controller in their pocket?  There is certainly an opportunity to expand upon the capabilities of the LC app and remote.  This includes the speed control that you have demonstrated, but would also include controlling Legacy features that normally can only be tapped into via the Legacy controller.  

You have also demonstrated bluetooth control of accessories and switches - which I think is a really cool.  I know this is out of your control, but I think if the app could be updated to include more appropriate interfaces for switches and specific to each accessory, it would really enhance the usability.

Lastly, similar to the ERR and the BlueRail retrofit boards, I believe there is a market for LC boards to be installed in non-command locomotives.  

In summary, I think the following would be useful in the hobby:

1. TMCC/Legacy to LC bridge

2. Expand LC App/remote control capabilities (set speed minimums, sound only remote, etc that you have demonstrated) for LC trains

3. Expand LC App/Remote capabilities to control Legacy features directly in Bluetooth legacy engines

4. LC App/remote bridge to Legacy control unit to control pre-Bluetooth legacy/tmcc equipment.  

5. LC App/remote control of accessories/switches

6. LC App/remote control retrofit boards (or track power control) to control non-command engines.  BlueRail has a nice solution in this space, however I believe it is designed for can motors and could not be used to control postwar Pullmor motors.  @BOB WALKER , please correct me if I am wrong here.

Id like to see TMCC/Legacy to DCC control.

Landsteiner posted:

Brilliant stuff. Well done. Keep us posted please.

Thanks, you bet. I depend on you and the others here for feedback. Keep letting me know what you'd like to see and I will hopefully make it all a reality. I still want to try out the Bluetooth module options you asked about in my other thread https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...eway-project-updates . I have some test hardware to experiment with a simple sound file playing module that I can control with my gateway code. This will would let you trigger your own set of recordings from any car you'd like using The LC Remote or App. The tricky part for me is implementing the proportional throttle sounds, I would have to experiment to see if I can get the sounds to transition from one file to another seamlessly. I will definitely keep you posted. 

JD2035RR posted:

Ryaninspiron posted:

And as a side project for those who want it I'm also going to look into adding TMCC / Legacy control of LionChief trains..

When LionChief came out, the biggest issue people had is that they could not control LC trains with a TMCC/Legacy controller.  Lionchief Plus 2.0 fixes that issue as they are essentially TMCC engines with Bluetooth, but there are number of years worth of LC and LC+ that can not be controlled by the manufacturer's top of the line control system.  They are still producing LC that can not be controlled by Legacy/TMCC.  There is an opportunity to create a Legacy/TMCC to LC bridge.

Now as people use and enjoy Bluetooth control from their phone, all new locomotives come standard with a bluetooth receiver.  Isn't it great that everyone visiting your layout now has a controller in their pocket?  There is certainly an opportunity to expand upon the capabilities of the LC app and remote.  This includes the speed control that you have demonstrated, but would also include controlling Legacy features that normally can only be tapped into via the Legacy controller.  

You have also demonstrated bluetooth control of accessories and switches - which I think is a really cool.  I know this is out of your control, but I think if the app could be updated to include more appropriate interfaces for switches and specific to each accessory, it would really enhance the usability.

Lastly, similar to the ERR and the BlueRail retrofit boards, I believe there is a market for LC boards to be installed in non-command locomotives.  

In summary, I think the following would be useful in the hobby:

1. TMCC/Legacy to LC bridge

2. Expand LC App/remote control capabilities (set speed minimums, sound only remote, etc that you have demonstrated) for LC trains

3. Expand LC App/Remote capabilities to control Legacy features directly in Bluetooth legacy engines

4. LC App/remote bridge to Legacy control unit to control pre-Bluetooth legacy/tmcc equipment.  

5. LC App/remote control of accessories/switches

6. LC App/remote control retrofit boards (or track power control) to control non-command engines.  BlueRail has a nice solution in this space, however I believe it is designed for can motors and could not be used to control postwar Pullmor motors.  @BOB WALKER , please correct me if I am wrong here.

 

Posts like this are awesome. Thanks for laying it all out for me here, I am grateful for the level  of detail you went into.

On the note of everyone having a controller in their pocket. I thought of an idea that would probably be more for club or public layouts, A time sharing system that allows multiple drivers to connect at once. They get put on a line with other users who want to drive the same locomotive, then the system will allow each person to have a time limited turn driving. The whole time a predefined speed limit will be in place and certain features like couplers would be locked out. Even driving in reverse could be blocked. Hard coded momentum could be used as well. I could even set it up so that the same user can be blocked from going again and again if needed for public layouts. a turn limit maybe. 

Of course having the app better adapted would be great. I think its good to at least be able to use the throttle for now in the mean time though. You just gave me an idea though. In case you need to stop the train while using this accessory mode, I should set it up so that disconnecting the app or turning off the remote stops the train. 

As for your other points:

1. This is soon to be a work in progress. If I had the hardware myself it would be done already.

2. Good to go pretty much.

3. Which legacy features did you have in mind? one thing I was thinking of adding was a trick to let you select the sound that plays like in legacy.(I would create the requirements for each sound for example I would trigger a brief movement in order to pull up the moving sounds).

4. Should be very easy once I have my hands on a legacy base and loco.

5. Progressing well so far as demoed.

6. I have thought of a way to go as far as supporting force detecting couplers and motor encoders in Pullmor locos. In the mean time a simple LC conversion module is a current work in progress item (may have a demo ready this weekend). LC remote/app Track power control should be the easier of the two methods but eventually I would like to design my own Pullmor control module.

Thanks again, keep me in the loop for anything else that would be nice to see.

Bruk posted:

Id like to see TMCC/Legacy to DCC control.

This should be possible if I used some of the open source projects out there like DCC++ as an interface to the DCC locomotives. I would first need to have access to both a legacy system and a DCC locomotive first though. I can add something like this to my list.

"Here is my broad goal: To expand what is possible with the LionChief remote/app.

Within that there are few projects I have going on:

1. A LionChief Gateway that interprets commands sent by the LC remote and adds things like new drive modes and accessory control as seen here: https://youtu.be/Ie4wmCQ8vOg

2. I'm also going to work on adding TMCC / Legacy control of LionChief trains. (still don't have access to TMCC or Legacy to test though.

3. A conversion board to add LC control to older Locos including postwar Pullmor motors.

4. An external sound board with a link to the LC remote or app via my LC Gateway project.

Probably more to come."

That... is awesome.   Amen and thank you. Looking forward to your future updates.

If I may add a request. I would love to be able to control multiple trains simultaneously (I believe you can only control 1 train at a time with the Lionel App), switches, and accessories in an app on an iPad as these guys do with the Lego trains (this is from 3 yrs ago)

Control Lego Trains and layout/switches on iPad

Thank you again

Larry DiG

Casey_Jones posted:

"Here is my broad goal: To expand what is possible with the LionChief remote/app.

Within that there are few projects I have going on:

1. A LionChief Gateway that interprets commands sent by the LC remote and adds things like new drive modes and accessory control as seen here: https://youtu.be/Ie4wmCQ8vOg

2. I'm also going to work on adding TMCC / Legacy control of LionChief trains. (still don't have access to TMCC or Legacy to test though.

3. A conversion board to add LC control to older Locos including postwar Pullmor motors.

4. An external sound board with a link to the LC remote or app via my LC Gateway project.

Probably more to come."

 

That... is awesome.   Amen and thank you. Looking forward to your future updates.

If I may add a request. I would love to be able to control multiple trains simultaneously (I believe you can only control 1 train at a time with the Lionel App), switches, and accessories in an app on an iPad as these guys do with the Lego trains (this is from 3 yrs ago)

Control Lego Trains and layout/switches on iPad

Thank you again

 

Larry DiG

Thanks for the feedback and Yes you actually reminded me about that priority of mine. My board will definitely let you run multiple locos at once. I even plan on allowing the calibration of different speed steps to sync them up as much as possible.

I just need to get a second LionChief loco to try it out with. As soon as I have one, I can test my plans out (my credit card begs me to wait until this coming Tuesday the 28th). This will work with both the LC app and Remote. It would not be too crazy difficult for me to program an app like in the video, but for now I would prefer to stay within the LionChief environment.

So I just got back from the Amherst Show, Besides getting some new (used) toys like Lionel's the scrambler accessory (childhood favorite ride), I also ran into Ryan Kunkle at the Lionel Booth! I was wearing my LC Gateway board with a battery all mounted to a lanyard. I took out a LionChief Remote and gave him a quick demo in person. I was pretty nervous but I did allude to a desire to collaborate in some capacity.(as @Landsteiner suggested, not as in depth as that though.) Ryan said he would reach out to David with this. I'm still sure I should probably send a better formatted email but at least he has seen it in person now and he appeared to show some interest from what I can tell. I also gave him a (diy) business card with some contact info including my OGR username.

Fingers crossed for a positive outcome.

Well hey, my friend that.......is awesome news!  

I hope they will review your work and something can be worked out.   Congrats!

This could be a huge breakthrough for our hobby,  please keep us posted

Larry DiG

Ryaninspiron posted:

I was wearing my LC Gateway board with a battery all mounted to a lanyard.

That alone must have alerted his curiosity Can you elaborate or do you have any pictures of your LC Gateway Board fixed to your lanyard?

Congrats, nice to hear positive news!

Casey_Jones posted:

Well hey, my friend that.......is awesome news!  

I hope they will review your work and something can be worked out.   Congrats!

This could be a huge breakthrough for our hobby,  please keep us posted

 

Larry DiG

Thanks, and I hope so too. It was a very exciting day.

We can only hope, I will certainly post any news as it comes.

Tomorrow I plan to pickup a LionChief Plus NW2 Switcher from TrainLand. That same night I hope to get a demo of multi locomotive control from the LionChief App.

If I have time I will also do a virtual consist with the LC remote. My LionChief M7 doesn't have couplers on it so this will be a good test of speed sync if possible. I have no idea if they will be capable of moving the exact same speed. Time will tell. My gateway is of course limited in some ways by the capability of the loco itself.

JD2035RR posted:

Ryaninspiron posted:

I was wearing my LC Gateway board with a battery all mounted to a lanyard.

That alone must have alerted his curiosity Can you elaborate or do you have any pictures of your LC Gateway Board fixed to your lanyard?

 

Congrats, nice to hear positive news!

Probably, at least I hope it did . There is not much to go into, I took the board that has been running my gateway code all along and used a screw terminal breakout board as a mounting plate for the Lipo battery. Then I also added a relay with a status light to show something physical getting triggered besides just the alpha-numeric display.

Eventually I will get some all in one circuit boards produced so I don't need to use off the shelf (more expensive) components anymore. This board of mine is like an early engineering prototype right now. It works but its ugly. Plus I still have unknowns about the limits of the Bluetooth radios with regards to multi loco control. I will know more once I get my second LC loco tomorrow.

The hardware I use is practically changing by the week these days. I already have a small pile of components that turned out to be incompatible with different combinations of the train, the remote, or the app so far. Adventuring into the unknown is fun but also not cheep!

Update 1-28-2020

Track power control for postwar via LC remote works! Video here: https://youtu.be/ZABna2tu9bE

I also picked up my new Union Pacific NW2 LionChief+ loco from TrainLand and am ready to start developing consists using the LC App and Remote.

Excellent news. Thanks!

Landsteiner posted:

Excellent news. Thanks!

Glad you like it.

I do have a bug to work out though. I haven't looked at the output with an oscilloscope yet but it seems my board likes fresh ac power straight off the transformer (aka a pure sine wave, not the chopped up version modern control boxes put out). I used the same technique as other transformer control boards, so it appears to not be too happy when you try powering it off another transformer's output. I am sure I will probably be able to work that out though.

For now it prefers direct transformer connections like Lionel's Powerhouse for example. It may also work as is with postwar transformers, I am pretty sure they also have pure sine wave outputs.

Time for a little progress report.
1. Still no contact from Lionel, I still need to send that email.
2. I managed to blow up one of my Bluetooth gateway boards during my track power project work. I can only figure some wire got crossed and severely overloaded the module. That set me back over a week. Still nervous to hook a new board back to the same circuit. Especially until I take some precise measurements. Post-War track power board will have to stay on hold until I do a little root cause analysis.
3. I joined a local train club, Train Masters of Babylon. Great people with a huge layout in a 4000 sq ft rented warehouse space. I already got to run my LionChief LIRR M7 at a public open house. Had a great time doing it. It was awesome to see the kids chasing my train along the subway line into a miniature Penn Station. I also got more ideas to try. Such as adding motorized doors to my LionChief M7 train. 
4. Motorized M7 Door project. Since my M7 comes with a lever to slide the doors open I figured I could add a motor to it and add control of it to the LionChief remote. Attached is a video of the preliminary results. I still need to add the Bluetooth control from the LionChief remote but it should be easy. trying to figure out a possible tether system to avoid dedicated Bluetooth boards for this in each passenger car though.

Let me know if I should open a new thread to show how I did it.

5. Thanks to some inspiration from running on the club layout I decided I wanted to make some ATC (automatic train control) system. Basically autopilot for LionChief. but it will be done to prevent actual train collisions on a large scale layout like the one at my new train club. No matter what control system the other person on the line is using, my train (though a Bluetooth gateway project connection to the layout block signal lines) will automatically stop in front of red signals and slow down in front of yellow ones. To try this out I bought several accessory activator FasTracks to create the block signal system on an oval track.(Perfectly the same size as a poker table it turns out). Soon I will hook up the same gateway board I already have been working on. This will allow me to prevent the collision of two trains on the same line running at different speeds.

6. I also would like to make a infared object triggered train speed syncronizer. It would either suggest or force an even spacing on two trains in on the same line. in suggestion mode it could simply act as a tool to assist drivers with spacing, but the force mode could also do it for you. I would just have to count the time since the end of one train to the start of the next to get a follow time.

Kinda like the adaptive cruise control ..on today’s vehicles. Great thread ! Love the doors !

Nessmuck posted:

Kinda like the adaptive cruise control ..on today’s vehicles. Great thread ! Love the doors !

Exactly. It came to mind when I was sharing a single loop line during an open house run session with another member of the train club. We had one close call and one very slight rear end collision resulting in a minor derail. It happened because we got a little distracted with a conversation, no damage, but I thought it would be cool to flip a switch and go hands off without stopping my train on a siding. Now that I have two LC locomotives I can test this out at home. I plan on using that same little loop track I set up to test it out. My goal is to have my M7 space itself evenly apart front and back from another freight train on the line.

And thanks, I also plan on syncing the door closing action up with the door closing sound made by the announcement button.

@Ryaninspiron, can you share what you learned about the BLE protocol being used, such as what you are sending along to the 0xE20A39F4 , 0x08590F7E service and characteristic combination?

bmoran4 posted:

@Ryaninspiron, can you share what you learned about the BLE protocol being used, such as what you are sending along to the 0xE20A39F4 , 0x08590F7E service and characteristic combination?

A very loaded question. At the moment I am trying to do some bridge building with Lionel but I'm also trying to get their exact feelings on the project. As some others have mentioned I want to avoid triggering an MTH style reaction to all this. 

In my opinion sharing is caring. Now considering that they have opened up the TMCC and Legacy protocol in the past, I do not yet see a reason why they might avoid the same treatment for LionChief.

I also would like to avoid the technical deep dive on this thread since things would get way too technical for most members to follow. BLE has a lot of tricks to it.

For now I am focusing my efforts on doing things that are supposed to be impossible.

Next priority on my list is dual locomotive control from the LionChief app. This has been delayed due to a bit of a communications issue between two of my modules. I am trying to keep all of this on a microcontroller level to avoid any computers including the raspberry pi. 

I am also adding Bluetooth control to the e-unit, couplers, and lights on a postwar locomotive from 1954. I figured it would be a neat idea to leave the original e-unit installed but trigger it with Bluetooth independently of track voltage.

My only suggestion to not lose sight of the relatively more important (at least in my mind ) goals.  Using the universal remote to talk to TMCC/Legacy locomotives is number one. Unifies the product line over the last 25 years.   Getting the universal remote and the app to talk with non-command (prewar and postwar, MPC) type locos would be the second priority.  Unifies the product line over the last 120 years.   Adding speed control to LionChief only locos would be number three.  The other items are lesser priorities (although good fun and worth doing at some point).

OMG, this is great, a super job, my friend, well done!    Feels like it's starting to turn into Legacy & LCS like features ( and then some) for LionChief.  Way cool

Landsteiner posted:

My only suggestion to not lose sight of the relatively more important (at least in my mind ) goals.  Using the universal remote to talk to TMCC/Legacy locomotives is number one. Unifies the product line over the last 25 years.   Getting the universal remote and the app to talk with non-command (prewar and postwar, MPC) type locos would be the second priority.  Unifies the product line over the last 120 years.   Adding speed control to LionChief only locos would be number three.  The other items are lesser priorities (although good fun and worth doing at some point).

Thanks for keeping me in line lol.

Getting the LionChief remote to speak to TMCC locomotives will be easy enough because the train club I just joined has a legacy system. Unfortunately according to my reading I will need to acquire an LCS SER2 module to do legacy control since the port on the back of the legacy base only supports up TMCC level commands. At least according to what I've read.

I'm not sure if legacy locomotives can respond to TMCC commands, or is my only option to get that SER2 module I mentioned.

Also now that I have a LC+ locomotive, I can see that the firmware has a few more neat features I can take advantage of in the LC+ remote. For example I could repurpose the built-in volume control as an accessory selection tool while in drive mode via my gateway.

Casey_Jones posted:

OMG, this is great, a super job, my friend, well done!    Feels like it's starting to turn into Legacy & LCS like features ( and then some) for LionChief.  Way cool

Why thank you very much, That's what I am going for. 

"I'm not sure if legacy locomotives can respond to TMCC commands, or is my only option to get that SER2 module I mentioned."

Absolutely can, no problem.  Legacy locos can be controlled by the original 1996 TMCC command base and cab-1 .

Ryaninspiron posted:

Landsteiner posted:

My only suggestion to not lose sight of the relatively more important (at least in my mind ) goals.  Using the universal remote to talk to TMCC/Legacy locomotives is number one. Unifies the product line over the last 25 years.   Getting the universal remote and the app to talk with non-command (prewar and postwar, MPC) type locos would be the second priority.  Unifies the product line over the last 120 years.   Adding speed control to LionChief only locos would be number three.  The other items are lesser priorities (although good fun and worth doing at some point).

Thanks for keeping me in line lol.

Getting the LionChief remote to speak to TMCC locomotives will be easy enough because the train club I just joined has a legacy system. Unfortunately according to my reading I will need to acquire an LCS SER2 module to do legacy control since the port on the back of the legacy base only supports up TMCC level commands. At least according to what I've read.

I'm not sure if legacy locomotives can respond to TMCC commands, or is my only option to get that SER2 module I mentioned.

Also now that I have a LC+ locomotive, I can see that the firmware has a few more neat features I can take advantage of in the LC+ remote. For example I could repurpose the built-in volume control as an accessory selection tool while in drive mode via my gateway.

Legacy will respond to tmmc commands but ideally you would want to use the legacy protocol on legacy locos and the TMCC Protocol on TMCC locos. You can send either information through the SER2 or with the WiFi module and the free LCS LE monitor. The thing we haven’t figured out is to get a legacy command initiated from a 3rd party won’t update the speed graph on the cab-2. I think someone said the iCab app would but I personally don’t have the app to verify. If that is true then it’s capable of updating the Cab-2 via serial commands but not sure if the command needed. 

Landsteiner posted:

"I'm not sure if legacy locomotives can respond to TMCC commands, or is my only option to get that SER2 module I mentioned."

Absolutely can, no problem.  Legacy locos can be controlled by the original 1996 TMCC command base and cab-1 .

Thanks, glad to hear it.

zhubl posted:

Legacy will respond to tmmc commands but ideally you would want to use the legacy protocol on legacy locos and the TMCC Protocol on TMCC locos. You can send either information through the SER2 or with the WiFi module and the free LCS LE monitor. The thing we haven’t figured out is to get a legacy command initiated from a 3rd party won’t update the speed graph on the cab-2. I think someone said the iCab app would but I personally don’t have the app to verify. If that is true then it’s capable of updating the Cab-2 via serial commands but not sure if the command needed. 

I have done a little research into the 9 bit legacy commands and it seems that if I can talk to the base with 9 bits of data then I should have no problem sending legacy data directly. I'm not sure if it makes sense to worry about sending Legacy format commands from an LC remote since I would already be short on input buttons. I wonder if I am sending TMCC commands to a legacy locomotive via serial, can you still send legacy commands from the cab-2 remote at the same time? Does the locomotive have to switch modes or anything when going between TMCC and Legacy commands? 

As for updating the speed on the cab-2 then I would say if the iCab app can do it, then it can be reverse engineered at least.

After pulling an all nighter, I got the dual Lionchief  locomotive code running. Using my gateway it is now possible to run multiple(up to 20 in theory) locomotives at once from the Official Lionchief remote app.

Video update coming once I get some sleep.

Wahoo!   

looking forward to the video!

It works! Dual locomotive control from the LionChief app is up and running!

I also figured out synchronization of speed at least at the low end. Arguably a very useful feature.

Theoretically I can do 20 LionChief locomotives like this. No idea how many will work in reality. 

Video below.

youtu.be/mYDu9uKFSws

Let me know if you guys like it.

Just saw the video,  nice work

Is their Anyway you can control each loco independently?   For example, even on a bedroom/spare room layout, you may have a switcher working a siding and a passenger train running around an outer loop at the same time, each going at different speeds and directions.   Also and horns, bells, and crew talk independently?  Kinda like the BlueRail app,   Or is that a Lionel app re-write?

Thanks 

Casey_Jones posted:

Just saw the video,  nice work

Is their Anyway you can control each loco independently?   For example, even on a bedroom/spare room layout, you may have a switcher working a siding and a passenger train running around an outer loop at the same time, each going at different speeds and directions.   Also and horns, bells, and crew talk independently?  Kinda like the BlueRail app,   Or is that a Lionel app re-write?

Thanks 

 

I absolutely can and that is no problem at all. I will build it into the LionChief app via my LC gateway. That's literally the next thing I'm working on at this moment.

I am thinking of automatically hitting the horn on the loco that is currently selected via some sort of button combination.

I only did it this way to demonstrate my new speed match feature. This is also separate from the automatic adaptive cruise control project I mentioned earlier.

As soon as I have separate locomotive control setup for the app and remote (when running multiple locos). I am going to do some major work on an internal post-war LC upgrade module. For now I'm going to have it utilize the e-unit (as is) for reverse selection.

Custom wiring allows me to control the e unit separately from the motor. I should also be able to check the position of it in software. I mostly think these units are cool piece of engineering and would really be a waste to take them out if it's working. But also they offer a interesting solution to a complicated problem. Plus if I let the e-unit do its thing I don't have to spend any effort designing a circuit to replace its functionality. Plus it's interesting to use Bluetooth to control a electromechanical device like that. I do love blending new and old tech.

I'll also add light and electric coupler control via LionChief.

As for legacy control with a LionChief remote, I still need to get some Hands-On time with the legacy base at the train club and I haven't gotten the opportunity yet.

This is a very commendable achievement for LC operation. The only other similar multiple engine approach I know of is the multiple throttle screen in the BlueRail Trains app.

BOB WALKER posted:

This is a very commendable achievement for LC operation. The only other similar multiple engine approach I know of is the multiple throttle screen in the BlueRail Trains app.

Thanks, it means a lot to me to hear that. I'd say I came a long way these last few weeks. I still have more ideas to try. One upcoming idea is to add control of servo accessories to my LC gateway board and additional moduals. I have some 8 and 16 channel i2c servo drivers that would allow almost infinite expandability. I already added servo powered doors to my LIRR M7 LC train.

I just had the ultimate stroke of madness. For my own personal mad science experiment, I decided I want to make a bluetooth consist of my postwar 1954 Alco AA locomotives #2032 AND the 2016 LionChief Plus matching B unit. http://www.lionel.com/products...unit-diesel-6-82304/ 

The craziest part is that it may require me to involve a universal remote in hotspot mode just to get the RF link. That is in the case that this B unit is from the pre Bluetooth LionChief world. I'm not sure (I think the locos only gained Bluetooth in 2017). I would like to avoid having to reverse engineer the older RF LionChief protocol as well.

To make this all happen I would add a DIY LC+ board to the postwar locos, and then I would use my new synced drive mode to run them as a consist. I would combine a MagnaTraction Pullmor motor with a modern dual traction tire dual drive motor LC+ B unit. Imagine the pulling power! I could probably haul full scale bricks around .

I would have to develop a module that also allows me to establish common speed settings but my DIY LC+ board would also easily allow 255 speed steps if I want to. It will use the same chopped waveform technique the ZW-L uses. (I already used that method on my track power module documented in video here https://youtu.be/ZABna2tu9bE 

Anyway this is an example of the crazy ideas I get looking at the train store's inventory! I considered just buying new LC+ Alco AA units but I certainly do not have that kind of money to spare, and plus besides what do I really gain besides fancy sounds? My 1954 locos have ElectroCouplers already, and soon they will have LC+ Bluetooth control. 

I would love to be adding the LC remote control of Legacy locos but I still have not been allowed to tap the serial port on my club's Legacy base. Also not owning a legacy loco adds more delay since I would need another member to lend me theirs.

@Ryaninspiron, As stated in my email to you, I have the Legacy bits (both hardware and software) you need and willing to help out.

bmoran4 posted:

@Ryaninspiron, As stated in my email to you, I have the Legacy bits (both hardware and software) you need and willing to help out.

That reminds me I forgot to send my response to you, I will get back on that.

And thanks, we will be in touch.

Interesting hack. It will be interesting to see how interested Lionel is in this. My suspicion is Lionel is operating on the old IBM model, where they have tiers of products that are incompatible with each other, so if you want more you have to upgrade to an entirely different line, including buying new software packages and tools and such. So if you for example are running LC or LC+ engines, today if you decide to switch to legacy you basically either keep operating those engines under LC controller, or run them under conventional control via the legacy powermaster. The thought being  that once you buy the legacy command base, you would upgrade to legacy versions of the LC engines and spend more $$$$ on them for the convenience of running them in legacy mode.  It would be great for those who have LC and conventional engines to be able to run them from the LC remote, and it would also be great if people have the TMCC/Legacy command base to be able to talk to LC/LC+ engines they have or buy, be interesting to see how this all plays out. 

bigkid posted:

Interesting hack. It will be interesting to see how interested Lionel is in this. My suspicion is Lionel is operating on the old IBM model, where they have tiers of products that are incompatible with each other, so if you want more you have to upgrade to an entirely different line, including buying new software packages and tools and such. So if you for example are running LC or LC+ engines, today if you decide to switch to legacy you basically either keep operating those engines under LC controller, or run them under conventional control via the legacy powermaster. The thought being  that once you buy the legacy command base, you would upgrade to legacy versions of the LC engines and spend more $$$$ on them for the convenience of running them in legacy mode.  It would be great for those who have LC and conventional engines to be able to run them from the LC remote, and it would also be great if people have the TMCC/Legacy command base to be able to talk to LC/LC+ engines they have or buy, be interesting to see how this all plays out. 

Thanks for the feedback.

If we look where it got IBM (bad for consumer subscription business models way beyond simple software support maintenance fees, and buying companies like the weather channel to stay relevant) I am personally hoping that Lionel will choose to build brand loyalty instead. Performing good will gestures with it's customers such as allowing a bridge like this to keep people like myself growing the collection without a bump in the road. For example my LC locomotive does not even offer convention control. (I am working on a Bluetooth based fix for that as well). I think it's silly to maintain desolate islands of isolation between product lines and I get the feeling Lionel is changing away from that as well, Simply based on the existence of LC+2.0 at least.

Even with the ability to run the LC locos with a legacy remote should not act as a deterrence from buying a legacy version, The features and build quality/detail improvements seem to me like good enough reasons to buy the same model in Legacy. It's the same force that pushed me to get the LC+ locomotive over the LC one, better speakers, better motors, ElectroCouplers, and all metal chassis/wheel trucks. Now I want an LC+2.0 loco because it has the promise of going to Legacy. Legacy still offers a degree of control way beyond LC. I can appreciate that extra control. I may not be able to afford it today, but at least I would like to be able to use one remote to control all my existing trains. Especially if I do make that relatively big leap into the deep end of the pool know as Legacy. I just shouldn't be punished by choosing to upgrade.

When I bought my first train a several months ago I picked Lionel because theirs were the first model trains I ever saw as a child. I got an attachment to them as a brand. now lately I personally like to by from brands make choices I agree with. Especially for the customers with some technical know how. A reason why I now like to avoid buying from a brand like MTH, they are actively preventing the expansion of their own hardware.(lawsuits and the downright refusal to open the TIU to connection from other devices.)

If Lionel makes the right moves, I know I would be a lifelong customer to them.

This is getting REALLY interesting and showing a lot of promise, I look forward to seeing the updates.   I can appreciate the detail that legacy offers, but...I'm not in that tax bracket. I really like the idea of an LCS version for the LC, LC2.0 crowd as it provides more play value IMO.  

Casey_Jones posted:

This is getting REALLY interesting and showing a lot of promise, I look forward to seeing the updates.   I can appreciate the detail that legacy offers, but...I'm not in that tax bracket. I really like the idea of an LCS version for the LC, LC2.0 crowd as it provides more play value IMO.  

Thanks! And I know, similar position with legacy right now. LC+ is more my speed right now. Legacy definitely seems like the destination, one when you want everything to work as realistically as possible.

 As an upcoming features preview, here is my workbench for my future post-war to LionChief+ conversion project. (1954)

Notice the perfectly sized circuit board sitting where the horn battery usually sits in the Alco A unit. All that's left is to solder the components and put some finishing touches on the code. (And make a mounting bracket for the board.) I already replaced all the old mold covered wire with some new silicone insulated 20 gauge. I also added a dedicated e-unit power wire.

Have been following your posts and I am excited to see your progress.  I have believed ( as d oes Lionel and  MTH) that the key to attracting new members is integrating the smart phone with train operation.  I see you have gone beyond simple train functions and can control accessories.  I also believe that as great as Legacy and DCS are , the price point is way too high for entry level hobbyists.  I am sure that manufacturers don't want to cut into their legacy product with a low cost alternative  but I think it could be made up in volume.  Consider that you can buy a remote controlled drone with camera function for under $50.  I have written several articles for my local club on this subject. I am attempting to explain the fun factor involved in wireless control and why that is the future of this hobby.  I  don't have the knowledge to reverse engineer LC+ but if you put out some basic instructions or sold a kit , I am sure there would be a lot of interest.

Keep up the good work Art

Art Lites posted:

Have been following your posts and I am excited to see your progress.  I have believed ( as d oes Lionel and  MTH) that the key to attracting new members is integrating the smart phone with train operation.  I see you have gone beyond simple train functions and can control accessories.  I also believe that as great as Legacy and DCS are , the price point is way too high for entry level hobbyists.  I am sure that manufacturers don't want to cut into their legacy product with a low cost alternative  but I think it could be made up in volume.  Consider that you can buy a remote controlled drone with camera function for under $50.  I have written several articles for my local club on this subject. I am attempting to explain the fun factor involved in wireless control and why that is the future of this hobby.  I  don't have the knowledge to reverse engineer LC+ but if you put out some basic instructions or sold a kit , I am sure there would be a lot of interest.

Keep up the good work Art

 

 

Thanks for the detailed response, I'm happy to have earned your feedback. Comments like this are pushing me to dedicate more time to this project. And I hope Lionel sees things that way too. a path to more features in LC, and not as some threat to legacy.

At the end of the day I have not actually changed the core features of LC or LC+. I cannot force specific  announcements/CrewTalks to happen, and I can't just add features like a Mars light to LC locos.(at least without replacing all the electronics). If people want those features they get Legacy, it's pretty simple. If they are happy with what they get features wise on LC but want to do more with their locos, they should be able to get the LC gateway. The ability to do more/integrate more functionality would be a good reason to buy even more LC/LC+ locos.

If I am extremely lucky this could end up becoming an official thing. No matter what, I would love the community to benefit from this concept. I certainly have been putting a lot of time into this. Trust me though, I am just as excited about what I am doing as everyone else seems to be. I love it. Hopefully it can be a win-win situation for everyone including Lionel.

Anyway thanks for the encouragement.

A new progress update on my postwar upgrade project. The train motor control board is now soldered together and the initial  testing is proving positive.

I had some fun using the pen on my phone and for the technically minded folks out here watching I have added some notes explaining the layout of my postwar motor controller. It is very simple and it will rely on the e-unit for direction control for now (but that is a decision I made for fun). My e-unit works so I am keeping it in.

As you can see by the picture I had some fun with it. Basically everything is labled.

As of the early hours this morning I had a breakthrough on my postwar speed control code. I have not checked my work with the o-scope yet, but it appears to work much more accurately now whether you use chopped wave power from a control box like the CW80 / ZW-L or pure sine like from the PH180.

I technically can get about 1024 speed steps too. This will help when matching speeds to LionChief locos for my crazy consist plans.

Also for @Landsteiner I am scheduled for work with a Legacy system this Saturday morning. hopefully things go well.

I did a sort video demo of my custom hardware controlling that postwar loco. (Not Bluetooth yet)

https://youtu.be/I-9FbBxk7Hw

I still need to add some more hardware for ElectroCouplers and light control though. The Bluetooth code portion of this is almost ready.

Looking good!

Can't wait to see it with the Bluetooth control 

Nice work, as usual! Put me down as a beta tester for one of the postwar conversion boards 😉 I really like that you retain the e-unit.  I would probably install the board with a switch to run conventional or via the board, like LC+ does now.

Just thinking ahead a step or two here...

Will there be a way to update your board if Lionel comes out with an app update that changes how data is sent from app/remote to engine? I’d hate to see an LC app update negate all of your progress so far. 

Casey_Jones posted:

Looking good!

Can't wait to see it with the Bluetooth control 

 

Thanks, and that will be done soon. should be ready this weekend. Mostly going to be based on my LC Gateway Code.

I'm glad I got this portion of the hardware straightened out first. I had an issue where I tried using a relay to trigger the e-unit with a relay but it ended up drawing too much power from my board. So I ended up building another solid state solution from scratch. (As a bonus, the custom solution actually takes less space anyway.)

And as we can see from the video, a section of my e-unit drum is dirty so I would like to fix that too. I already tried cleaning it with alcohol once but it seems the fingers of the e-unit itself might be dirty. Maybe some super fine sandpaper can solve that.

After I get Bluetooth up and running I have to build an e-unit position detection circuit to know if the train is currently in forward, reverse, or neutral. This will be critical.

JD2035RR posted:

Nice work, as usual! Put me down as a beta tester for one of the postwar conversion boards 😉 I really like that you retain the e-unit.  I would probably install the board with a switch to run conventional or via the board, like LC+ does now.

Just thinking ahead a step or two here...

Will there be a way to update your board if Lionel comes out with an app update that changes how data is sent from app/remote to engine? I’d hate to see an LC app update negate all of your progress so far. 

Thank you very much, and will do 😉. I would say it's worth the effort for me to keep it in for the cool factor too. Plus it makes adding a simple slide switch to switch to conventional mode very easy. I was definitely planning on adding the same switch to mine.

Well I certainly hope it never comes to that since I would definitely prefer working with Lionel than against. It would be a shame if things came down to helping the train community by fighting Lionel. (seams like they would be fighting their own customers in that scenario).

But to answer your question software updates will be possible in some capacity. Though I only hope I need the ability to release new features and nothing else.

Thanks, and that will be done soon. should be ready this weekend. Mostly going to be based on my LC Gateway Code.

I'm glad I got this portion of the hardware straightened out first. I had an issue where I tried using a relay to trigger the e-unit with a relay but it ended up drawing too much power from my board. So I ended up building another solid state solution from scratch. (As a bonus, the custom solution actually takes less space anyway.)

And as we can see from the video, a section of my e-unit drum is dirty so I would like to fix that too. I already tried cleaning it with alcohol once but it seems the fingers of the e-unit itself might be dirty. Maybe some super fine sandpaper can solve that.

After I get Bluetooth up and running I have to build an e-unit position detection circuit to know if the train is currently in forward, reverse, or neutral. This will be critical.

Question, and forgive me, I'm not familiar with electronics, software development etc.  

Would an electronic reverse board (like the ones you can get from Bachman for the Williams line) be better/easier than the old e-units?  

Casey_Jones posted:

Thanks, and that will be done soon. should be ready this weekend. Mostly going to be based on my LC Gateway Code.

I'm glad I got this portion of the hardware straightened out first. I had an issue where I tried using a relay to trigger the e-unit with a relay but it ended up drawing too much power from my board. So I ended up building another solid state solution from scratch. (As a bonus, the custom solution actually takes less space anyway.)

And as we can see from the video, a section of my e-unit drum is dirty so I would like to fix that too. I already tried cleaning it with alcohol once but it seems the fingers of the e-unit itself might be dirty. Maybe some super fine sandpaper can solve that.

After I get Bluetooth up and running I have to build an e-unit position detection circuit to know if the train is currently in forward, reverse, or neutral. This will be critical.

 

Question, and forgive me, I'm not familiar with electronics, software development etc.  

Would an electronic reverse board (like the ones you can get from Bachman for the Williams line) be better/easier than the old e-units?  

I like questions. I looked into the Bachmann board you mentioned and it appears to be a simple pair of relays and that would not work with these 3 wire pullmor motors. I am pretty sure Lionel had one at one point but I have not seen it yet. I believe I can control the pullmor with a set of 4 triacs (solid state switches basically) but again I again I have no references on that yet. I have a few ideas on how I could design a digital e-unit with the 3 wire output(not to be confused with a brushless speed controller).

Anyway I consider the original e-unit to be a bit like the engine of a classic car. The locomotive would still work if I replaced it with a modern one but it would be less interesting/fun. The original e-unit was a bit of an engineering wonder for its time and I would like to keep mine in its original function for that reason.

At some point I can design an alternative board but I would not be using that in my trains. No matter what versions I build I will be keeping a conventional running switch because what's the point of a postwar that can't run conventionally I'd say.

I had a major breakthrough today, I got the LionChief remote to send bell and horn commands to a legacy locomotive. If I didn't have to leave I could have finished getting the other functions running too!!

Work in progress video here: https://youtu.be/9tPro7mHm8A

Full control of TMCC functions is a work in progress. Legacy features might be possible after that.

@Landsteiner I know you were asking about this feature.

Ryaninspiron posted:

I like questions. I looked into the Bachmann board you mentioned and it appears to be a simple pair of relays and that would not work with these 3 wire pullmor motors. I am pretty sure Lionel had one at one point but I have not seen it yet. I believe I can control the pullmor with a set of 4 triacs (solid state switches basically) but again I again I have no references on that yet. I have a few ideas on how I could design a digital e-unit with the 3 wire output(not to be confused with a brushless speed controller).

Clearly, you can control a Pullmor motor with four triacs, Lionel has done it for many years with the LCRU and then the ACDR motor controller.   The LCRU made it's entrance around 1996, and the ACDR for modular boards around 2000.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Clearly, you can control a Pullmor motor with four triacs, Lionel has done it for many years with the LCRU and then the ACDR motor controller.   The LCRU made it's entrance around 1996, and the ACDR for modular boards around 2000.

Thanks, I figured as much, though without schematics I will have to figure it out. I know how to control a triac already, but I am not sure how the 4 triacs connect to the 3 motor wires yet.

The answer is literally contained on the underside of the boards you attached above.

One of my upcoming goals is to add several integrations with Legacy. Since I do not own a Legacy system, I started work on a Legacy Cab-2 simulator. Here is  a little preview of that youtu.be/guqH1td5vls

Soon I will have it sending real commands to a legacy system. For now I will use it for testing my LC Gateway at home.

wow.

Question; did you say you would eventually be able to send Legacy Commands directly to BT equipped Legacy Trains? (ie no need for a Legacy base)

Casey_Jones posted:

wow.

 

Question; did you say you would eventually be able to send Legacy Commands directly to BT equipped Legacy Trains? (ie no need for a Legacy base)

Thanks,

One could technically use my simulator (of a Cab-2) to send commands via my LC Gateway to a lionchief train.

I also plan on allowing a real Cab-2 to send commands via the legacy base and my LC Gateway to LionChief trains.

It'll be one big cross-compatibility party.

The only thing I couldn't do is add Bluetooth to the Legacy Cab-2 directly. 

Also special Legacy commands such as individually selected announcements would not work in LionChief. Even with a cab-2 remote since I can only add as many features as are possible with the LionChief remote.

Cool, thanks  

I finally have a progress video on the sound module. I got the basics of a horn working so far. (definitely one of the hardest parts) Rpm would be another challenge. 

Video here: https://youtu.be/eIlx7CZphtk

Next on my list is driving the postwar loco via Bluetooth, should be ready very soon.

Surprise surprise, it's a 2 for 1 update day today. I said it would be quick to add that Bluetooth control to the board I built for postwar control last week. And I already have results.

I now have LionChief control over a postwar locomotive with it's original E-Unit still in place doing its job. This is one of the most exciting updates so far for me.

https://youtu.be/KA2-Qvt5x-4

Nice going.  You've got a talent for this sort of Rube Goldberg technical wizardry .

Fantastic job, well done my good man!   Looking forward to seeing the sound and electro couplers.  

Hopefully, we will see simultaneous multi-train control on the app soon

Landsteiner posted:

Nice going.  You've got a talent for this sort of Rube Goldberg technical wizardry .

Thank you thank you, any time a project works along side with the E-Unit it is automatically a Rube Goldberg machine . I have simply added to that machine. I'm just glad it worked out that I get to keep the E-Unit in place. My board still does not actually check the position so the forward and reverse of the LC remote control/app are more like suggestions than anything else.

I also need to start shrinking down my components, I had the cover on before adding E-Unit control, now I just need to get creative. Maybe I should try a tether to the dummy unit for sound and rear coupler control. After that I will try and sync the speed steps up with my other LC locomotives. I technically have about 1024 speed steps to work with on my custom control board. I am working on a train detector circuit that allows me to tell the scale MPH of a train based on how long it takes to cover a certain distance. I will then use those numbers to calibrate my different locos to the exact same speed. 

I still want to buy the modern LC+ Erie Alco B unit to go with my two postwar Erie Alco A units from 1954 (one powered, one dummy).

Casey_Jones posted:

Fantastic job, well done my good man!   Looking forward to seeing the sound and electro couplers.  

Hopefully, we will see simultaneous multi-train control on the app soon

 

Thank you, I am absolutely working on those things next. The sound(video here) and rear coupler will probably be handled through a wireless tether board though since I am absolutely running out of room in the powered unit (at least using these large though hole solder boards). Surface mount is the answer I know, but for this version 1 I should have just enough room to add electro-coupler and light controls.  In fact I am about to start testing the electro-couplers now. I finished adding the circuit for that this morning.

Adding multi train app control will actually be less technically challenging then getting two different LC locomotives to move at the exact same speed as I did already.(video here) I have a few ideas on how this can work already. Just trying to find the most convenient option.

Postwar LionChief Electro-coupler control is now working! See video here: https://youtu.be/2E3mnqfNdRg

When the e-unit was invented 96 years ago you can tell they didn't put much consideration into how hard it would be to manage it using Bluetooth. I wonder why. Now I have to add a few extra detection circuits just to tell the position of the e-unit.

It's certainly fun though. What doesn't help is that I have a section of my e-unit drum that has pretty bad continuity. Hopefully I can fix it.

E-Unit rebuild kits are cheap, solves the problem of bad contacts.   They come with the contacts and drum, everything you need to make the E-Unit like-new.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

E-Unit rebuild kits are cheap, solves the problem of bad contacts.   They come with the contacts and drum, everything you need to make the E-Unit like-new.

Thanks, I just looked up a video on the process. I didn't realize they were so simple to open up. At first when I didn't see any screws I figured it was going to be something other than a simple press fit. Looks like I should probably attempt to clean the original up first. I already scrubbed down the drum with alcohol, but I couldn't reach the fingers. Maybe mine will be good as new if I get the fingers polished back to shiny metal again. If that fails I will certainly try one of those rebuild kits. Good to see they are not hard to find at least.

Hi Ryan,  hope you are in good health and spirits

any news/progress?