*PLEASE DELETE* Problem solved

Sorry to hear this. We simply have to get the manufacturing away from China. 

romiller49 posted:

Sorry to hear this. We simply have to get the manufacturing away from China. 

Either that or Lionel will have to keep somebody over there to watch production to make sure they do it right.

Hello Zach.

I am sorry you are having trouble with your Mogul

The stalling of the Moguls has not been documented yet that I am aware of, possibly a new development that may help determine the issue that we are currently working on. I would like to bring this in for a closer look if I may. Please call 800-454-6635 to obtain an RA and a call tag. This will not cost you anything to send it to us.

Thank you.

Lionel will take care of this for you.They are smart... They want you to return to buy more products.

Have a great day Nick

First hand info for you all.  There is a solution which when it’s verified fixes the moguls issues, it will be announced.  Give it a week or two. 

Any clues Gary? I am curious if the problem is mechanical or electronic.

Pete

Gary - the suspense is killing us - can you at least say whether it is something we can fix or if it has to be sent back ?

Thanks for your advice and concerns, I don't plan on making my 565 a test gunnea pig just yet........ If it keeps stalling, I'll consider sending it in. 

I heard the same information Gary shared from Dave Olson this afternoon.

I've been sworn to secrecy.  Dave doesn't want to say anything until he's sure what the fix will be, he think it's a certain something but has to verify it first.  He's dealing with the Manufacture in China on the issue/fix.  Oops I said to much.

Great news. I hope everyone is taken care of. 

RickO posted:

The truth is out there.......

But trust nobody!

Gary

Thanks for keeping everyone in the loop.  I'm sure Dave and the crew are working hard to get these right.

Great to know a fix is coming. I had mine on the track last night for testing and, compared to the Challenger, it was not good.....

Pretty little engine so I hope the fix comes soon and works and there are many happy years and miles ahead for all of us who bought these engines.

Sigh, guess I need to get mine out and run it some to see.  It does lurch at slow speeds.  One time it did stall once with a blinking cab light, but it was over a switch so we just chalked it up to that as a reset sent it on it's way again.  Guess this weekend I'm going to finish wiring stage one of my layout so I can run trains again at home.

Got a call from Charles Ro earlier this week that mine is ready to come home. I hope it's good to go.

MICHAEL464 posted:

Got a call from Charles Ro earlier this week that mine is ready to come home. I hope it's good to go.

 

I got mine from Charles ro at york, and they put the correct traction tires on before I even bought mine

sinclair posted:

Sigh, guess I need to get mine out and run it some to see.  ....

Now more than ever, this is not the time to buy locomotives and stash them away in closets or basement storage to be used months or years later.  

The word I got at York is that Lionel will be taking care of the Mogul issue for owners. As gary mentioned. a solution is being worked on. 

Hay Michael 464, 

Good chance that Marty Fitzhenry worked on your engine, although I don't know this as a fact. He is without a doubt one of the best mechanics to have in your corner when it comes to repairs.

   Steam Forever

        John

Coordinator for The Raritan Valley Hi-Railers

Member of : N.J. Hi-Railers

never enough time to do it right but always enough time to do it over.

i wonder whose motto that should be; i hope the get it right on the brass Mikado by December. 

LIRR Steamer posted:

The word I got at York is that Lionel will be taking care of the Mogul issue for owners. As gary mentioned. a solution is being worked on. 

 

I can also confirm this. I specifically approached Dave and asked about any fixes to the Moguls. He said they were actively working on it and there WILL be a fix. I REALLY like mine and would like to see it operate as good as it looks and sounds.

Any resolutions yet?

Here is what I don't understand. If the problem is so widespread that each owner is likely to experience some trouble as a result of it, why not test several first? How hard could it have been for a Lionel rep to test several BEFORE all were shipped? Why would they not do this? Have the factory send six to North Carolina. Why wait until the horses are gone to close the gate? Isn't it MUCH more expensive to fix many locomotives than to check several prior to shipping?

Zach

at the Lionel event yesterday, spoke with some folks who were knowledgeable on the problem and the indication was that they were near a solution for the issue . Once again they said that they would take care of the problem for Mogul purchasers. 

I would give it a couple of more weeks in my opinion. We will see.

Scrapiron Scher posted:

Here is what I don't understand. If the problem is so widespread that each owner is likely to experience some trouble as a result of it, why not test several first? How hard could it have been for a Lionel rep to test several BEFORE all were shipped? Why would they not do this? Have the factory send six to North Carolina. Why wait until the horses are gone to close the gate? Isn't it MUCH more expensive to fix many locomotives than to check several prior to shipping? 

Eliot, you've nailed it IMHO.  My "solution" to this was returning the two I purchased (unopened) to the dealer, and then I purchased something else from the dealer (which actually cost more $$$).  But I didn't care.  I just wanted to avoid the Legacy Mogul hassle altogether.

Lionel built the TMCC version with no issues to speak of. So in my mind there's NO excuse to step backwards with a locomotive that has inherent slow-speed issues.  

I realize "crap" happens to everyone.  But this just seems to be more of a larger issue where Lionel is disconnected from both their factory AND consumer.  

On the factory side, it illustrates a quality control issue, since something like this is EASILY visible upon even the most casual inspection(s).  So why was this overlooked?  

And on the consumer side, it shows Lionel doesn't "get" how important super-smooth, slow-speed performance is nowadays.  Otherwise they'd never even release something like this in the first place.  Guys and gals buying these things now are hopefully not gonna just buy his stuff and stash it on a shelf or the n a closet for 10 years anymore.  They're gonna run their locomotives, and these issues are gonna hit the spotlight very quickly after release.

David

I would like to have a Lionel B&M Mogul but will not purchase one until I know the source of the problem and its resolution. If there are none available after the solution is announced - so be it... It is an enormous disappointment to pre-order an item, wait a long time until it arrives, spend a tidy sum, and then be unable to run it (for quite a while now) because it is defective as delivered. Lately, this seems to have happened quite often with Lionel.

MELGAR

interestingly , a rail buddy of mine  received the B&M version from the same shop that I received the Central Vermont version. His performs smoother than mine and I am  thinking  that those with B&M versions have not reported problems on this forum. 

I think that Lionel has been very attentive to this problem since it first surfaced. In the several conversations I have had with Lionel folks about the problem, I thought they were forthright about their understanding of the issue and the progress they were making in finding out why the problem is occurring and developing the fix for owners. They have indicated that they would take care of it for owners. 

As for QC issues, I am sure there are lessons learned here and I do think that the folks at Lionel do understand that based on this experience. . We don't know if it the same factory that built the original moguls. . Eliot's suggestion is one that they probably are considering going forward.

I am sure that no one likes to have a situation in which the item they purchased needs to be returned for service to correct an issue  . The good news I think is that they , Lionel .have stepped up to the plate from the get go to get the problem corrected for owners.  

LIRR Steamer posted:

interestingly , a rail buddy of mine  received the B&M version from the same shop that I received the Central Vermont version. His performs smoother than mine and I am  thinking  that those with B&M versions have not reported problems on this forum. 

 

Mine is a B&M and has all of the issues mentioned. 

LIRR Steamer posted:

interestingly , a rail buddy of mine  received the B&M version from the same shop that I received the Central Vermont version. His performs smoother than mine and I am  thinking  that those with B&M versions have not reported problems on this forum. 

 

I have the new B&M mogul. It definitely has a lurch at slow speed. The center wheel set has some lateral movement but not as much as others I have seen.

I think the fix may be something as simple as a set of bushings and a new center driver made with better tolerances. 

Other than that issue the engine is very nice, sounds great and the darkened side rods are a nice touch. If the fix solves the issue, I will pick up another mogul.

Thanks for the update on your B&M versions. I was beginning to think that perhaps this version was not as impacted by the problem. Thinking you folks have not had the motor stall or lock up occur. My CV did not do that as well. I have about and hours running time on it. 

The middle wheel on my mogul has the lateral movement as well, it seems like the motor drives that wheel and the others just rely on the axle movement. 

"Eliot's suggestion is one that they probably are considering going forward" . . . . . LIRR Steamer

The first time Eliot made this suggestion, George Bush was in his first term. 

The first time Eliot made this suggestion, George Bush was in his first term. 

and they have had more presidents since than Bush had successors

I think the outcome here will be good.

I am sticking with PW and MPC.  Stuff like this makes post 1955 and MPC look good.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

I am sticking with PW and MPC.  Stuff like this makes post 1955 and MPC look good.

You're right, because all the junk ones are out of the pipeline by now.

"How hard could it have been for a Lionel rep to test several BEFORE all were shipped? "

Do you know that this didn't occur?  This is one locomotive out of perhaps dozens made each catalog.  One locomotive with unforeseen design/implementation problems out of dozens is pretty much par for the course for these complex electromechanical devices.  5% initial problem rates are not unusual if you read Consumer Reports related to appliances.

The sky ain't falling. I've received a handful of locomotives over the last few years.  Every single one has been perfect in initial appearance and performance.  I probably have dozens over the last 20 years.  Same deal.  I realize if it happens to you it's 100%, but I'd suggest that overstating the implications doesn't help the situation and it scares off people for no good reason.  One lemon does not an orchard make.

I received my B&M version back from Charles Ro on Saturday. They replaced the traction tires with MTH tires then lubed and test ran the unit. The wobble is gone but the locomotive still has jerky motion to it. Still anxious to hear what the fix will be. I really like this little loco but it’s painfull to watch when running compared to the smooth operation of my other Legacy engines.

MICHAEL464 posted:

I received my B&M version back from Charles Ro on Saturday. They replaced the traction tires with MTH tires then lubed and test ran the unit. The wobble is gone but the locomotive still has jerky motion to it. Still anxious to hear what the fix will be. I really like this little loco but it’s painfull to watch when running compared to the smooth operation of my other Legacy engines.

On my mogul, the jerky motion exists in the slower speed-steps, and what seems to be only when acceerating. When I slow the loco's movement, it doesn't jerk to a stop. I got mine from Charles Ro, and they sure did take care of the cosmetics. 

I recently purchased a Lionel Lackawanna 565 mogul and I have not had any jerkiness in the Motor. But for some reason the light on my tender has stopped working. I can tell it is not burnt out because of how it is not black. Does anybody know what the solution could be?

Amtrak  try doing an engine reset with your TMCC or Legacy set. The instructions are in the operators manual. 

Finally got the layout to a point I can run things this weekend, and ran my Mogul for about an hour.  Awesome smoker and great sounds, but jerky at low speeds, forward and backward.  Didn't check for axle play, but I did notice the blind driver on the engineer's side was going up and down as the locomotive rolled along.  I noticed it because I saw light under the wheel which meant there was an air gap as the wheel wasn't touching the rail.  And as I watched, the gap size was changing as the wheel went around.  So either the wheel isn't round, the axle isn't centered in the wheel, or the axle is bent or not trued to the frame.

sinclair posted:

Finally got the layout to a point I can run things this weekend, and ran my Mogul for about an hour.  Awesome smoker and great sounds, but jerky at low speeds, forward and backward.  Didn't check for axle play, but I did notice the blind driver on the engineer's side was going up and down as the locomotive rolled along.  I noticed it because I saw light under the wheel which meant there was an air gap as the wheel wasn't touching the rail.  And as I watched, the gap size was changing as the wheel went around.  So either the wheel isn't round, the axle isn't centered in the wheel, or the axle is bent or not trued to the frame.

Wish I had one of these. I am pretty familar with the TMCC version after replacing the chuff cam. Should be easy to diagnose the problem.

I assume the delay in responding to the problem means a bad part needs replacing and it will take time for the replacement, similar to the Niagara gear issue.

Pete

Any updates?? Mine has been back in the box ever since the test run. 

The silence is still deafening.....

I have been watching the Forum every day for news from Lionel and saw one of these beautiful models at today's train show in Cheshire, CT. Was tempted to buy it but will not do so until a solution is announced by Lionel.

MELGAR

Nonsensical to me. Eventually a repair will be announced and a recall/repair process will begin. In the meantime, how many folks laid out a lot of money for locomotIves that NEVER should have been released. 

It's not the engineering that causes these issues. Engineering mistakes/miscalculations can be caught and SHOULD be caught prior to release.

The Lionel problem is intransigence. It's the process not the design or manufacturing. Design flaws and manufacturing issues get sorted out by testing. Lionel refuses to test. As soon as the factory waves the checkered flag, Lionel says ship the container and the website says on the water. If Lionel would have the factory send a small sample, common issues/problems would quickly be identified and someone calls the factory to say, don't ship.

The ONLY possible reason for Lionel not doing so is the refusal of the factory to play along. If that is the case, Lionel is held hostage until the consumer receives the piece. Then, the consumer is held hostage. What a good system.

I have one last Lionel locomotive on order . . The brass hybrid. I can tell you this, once it arrives, if it has flaws that should have been caught, it goes right back for a refund. I am not going to **** around with it. Done

Oh yeah and should I even mention the 21 inch passenger cars that are quite late. I'll see myself to the door

Scrapiron Scher posted:

Nonsensical to me. 

Not sure what you're referring to as nonsensical - my comment or Lionel's issues. I refuse to spend $600 on a model locomotive which I cannot put on the track and have it run properly. That's not enjoyment - it's aggravation. The $600 does not come that easily for me these days.

MELGAR

MELGAR posted:

Scrapiron Scher posted:

Nonsensical to me. 

Not sure what you're referring to as nonsensical - my comment or Lionel's issues. I refuse to spend $600 on a model locomotive which I cannot put on the track and have it run properly. That's not enjoyment - it's aggravation. The $600 does not come that easily for me these days.

MELGAR

Have to agree. One other poster, when this issue first became apparent, proclaimed that for a "cheap" engine, issues are to be expected........a $600+ engine isn't what I would classify as "cheap"............

I have one of these Moguls collecting dust and cobwebs. Very pretty to look at but I want to run it. The longer this it sits, with no info from Lionel, the more I consider ways of getting rid of it - including a full refund. 

............And, FWIW, I pulled my Mogul off the shelf and put it on the track - first time since I got it within a week of it's release. Ran for about a foot and it stalled with the cab light flashing. Back on the shelf it went. 

SJC posted:

Have to agree. One other poster, when this issue first became apparent, proclaimed that for a "cheap" engine, issues are to be expected........a $600+ engine isn't what I would classify as "cheap"............

I believe that was sarcasm by that particular poster.

I have one of these Moguls collecting dust and cobwebs. Very pretty to look at but I want to run it. The longer this it sits, with no info from Lionel, the more I consider ways of getting rid of it - including a full refund. 

I'm not sure what your gaining by letting it sit. It doesn't seem likely that Lionel will be suggesting an easy "do it yourself"  fix. I think we would have had information by now if that was the case .

If I had one I would at the very least send it in to their warranty dept, but most likely just request a refund.

A refund in your case could be tricky after you dremeled off the brake shoes in an attempt to fix the lurching.

One could always return it and buy it again in the future when and if the issue is resolved. The return shipping eats up a good portion of the preorder discount anyway and its doubtful these will increase in price, most likely they'll go on blowout after everyone avoids them.

 

............And, FWIW, I pulled my Mogul off the shelf and put it on the track - first time since I got it within a week of it's release. Ran for about a foot and it stalled with the cab light flashing. Back on the shelf it went. 

Its not going to fix itself either.

I opened the box.  Looked at it.  Read about the problems.  Closed the box.  I wait.  Please... some updates would be reassuring.

God this makes me worried to buy even a non-powered legacy loco. So many freakin problems. 

And this thread just keeps going on and on and on.....I assure you Lionel has got the message in this thread!  Pretty sure that the point has been made that there is a problem AND I assume someone here that owns this locomotive has contacted Lionel...?  I am hoping that all of you that are having a problem have contacted the shop from which you made your purchase as well as Lionel directly?