is there a minimum to max number to make a incline to raise train 3 inches ?
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
I believe after all the calculations it's about 1/4" per foot
so thats 1 inch =4feet so 3 inches =12 feet well this layout isnt gonna work
You gutta’ let someone else reply. The grade is usually 2% but different inclines still work.
Maximum grade is usually 4%. That is a rise of 4 inches in 100 inches. That is considered steep. 3% would be better. For a 4% grade, a rise of 3 inches would take 75”.
How is it that small layouts can get high enough for a train to go under the incline....For an O/O27 train that's 4 3/4". Almost 5" in an 8' layout.
the other way is to make the incline in steps. meaning have the incline rise to a flat horizontal or much less incline portion then rise again to another flat section. the inclines can then be steeper than 2% because the engine has greater traction on the flat sections to pull up the rest of the cars,
this may take some trials to get it to work. the curved track should be part of the flatter sections.
3" is not a lot. So I'm guessing you do not want a train to cross over another set of tracks. YOu would need in excess of 5", maybe 6". You just want to get some terrain elevation? Why not consider keeping the track level and dropping the terrain on the benchwork?
Ron
thank you all for the information im trying different layout designs using trial and error the only thing set so far is frame plywood top and homasote
Whew - I flunked trigonometry in school so am very thankful for Lionel's Odyssey system. (lol)
John Ochab posted:I used trigonometry for my 2 degree grade elevations. From trigonometry the tangent of a right triangle is the rise divided by the run. If a 3 inch rise is wanted at a 2 degree elevation, the equation is the tangent of 2 degrees is equal to the 3 inch rise divided by the run. Solve this equation for the run or run is equal to the rise of 3 inches divided by the tangent of a 2 degree angle. Solving this equation the base is 85.91 inches, this can be checked by dividing the 3 inches by 85.91 inches and calculate the arctangent which will give the angle of 2 degrees. If you are going to mount the track on a length of plywood, square the 3 inch leg and square the 85.91 inch leg,add them together, and take the square root of this number, this will be the hypotenuse of this right triangle and the length of the plywood.Solving this right triangle 3 inches squared is 9 inches squared , 85.91 inch squared is 7380.5 inch squared, sum both numbers or 7389.5 inches squared take the square root of 7389.5 inches squared which equalss 85.96 inch. Note I would cut the plywood length at 86.25 inches and trim for fit.
I would recommend a 2 degree maximum rise, using an MTH Railking berkshire steam engine, it will pull 25 cars up the 2 degree grade at appriximately 2 to 3 max amps, I also tried a Williams GP-9 and a trainmaster seperately same numer of cars, each engine had two can motors, amp range 2 to 3 max amps. Track Gargraves tinplate keep clean to minimize or prevent wheel slippage. Also note, the 25 cars were all tank cars, Kline or MTh, the number of cars that can be pulled up a grade is based on the car weight and the influence of this weight on the drawbar pull and lubrication of the wheelsets in the car trucks, the weight of the engine on the driving wheels (tractive effect) is another consideration.
Oh MY GOD!!! I just barely made it through Plane Geometry my sophomore year in High School and stopped right there. After reading the above post I'm glad I did. Solid G and Trigonometry would have laid waste to me.
Everything stated in above posts is correct, but degrees and percentages are different. A 2 percent grade is not a 2 degree grade.
Small layouts means short trains. That's how traditional toy train layouts get away with extreme grades.
My older layout years ago had an incline that was 12’ long to have a 6” clearance underneath. All my engines pulled 7 or 8 18” aluminum cars with no problem. Then I bought the 1st Big Boy that MTH produced. No problem on the incline up but when reaching the bottom coming down the front of the steamer hit the rails and stopped. I was able to extend the incline and solved the problem.
A 45 degree grade is a 100 percent grade.
The incline sets that Lionel sells are around an 8% grade. In other words, you can get plenty of rise in a short distance. Is it prototypical? No. But it will work if you have limited space.
This picture is about 15 years old of my old layout under construction. It is 12' long and that incline rises 7" in about 10'. Hope this helps as a visual reference.
-Greg
Attachments
Images (1)
posted: The incline sets that Lionel sells are around an 8% grade.
That's what I don't get. Everyone says 2 to 3% incline...4% is very steep....then how does Lionel sell and people make 8% inclines AND the rains run on them. Am I missing the terminology somehow?
Mike - you can get away with if for short trains.
Grade is rise divided by run. Multiple by 100 to get it in percent. At 8% the difference between the horizontal run vs. the track length is negligible. Even more so for lesser grades.
Example: 8 inch rise in 100 inches run is 8%. The distance up the grade is 100.32 inches. For 2% with a run of 100 inches the distance up the grade is 100.02 inches.
(updated after proofreading!)
Vertical curvature where the track makes the transition onto and off of the grade can enable coupler vertical bypass. Postwar cars tolerate it better than scale size cars. It takes some track space.
Woodland Scenics sells transition SubTerrain, as well as the same product in several gradients.
working on trial and error just about got it finished using 4 foot incline to a total 2 inch rise thank you for your advice
Mike23 posted:posted: The incline sets that Lionel sells are around an 8% grade.
That's what I don't get. Everyone says 2 to 3% incline...4% is very steep....then how does Lionel sell and people make 8% inclines AND the rains run on them. Am I missing the terminology somehow?
My digital level says the rise on PW Lionel is closer to 4.5-5% (not °) I lost a little accuracy because of wavy shelves (don't measure off a ceiling expecting it to be water level, I forgot that. Use the floor or plane making 360° lazer level 
The grade begins with less rise (1/8" for one track joint) to avoid scooping at the center rail with pilots. The rises then increases to just over 4% with normal 1/4" rises per 0-27 track joint. At the top it again flattens ,back to a 1/8" rise to stop jumping over or off as the track drops away from the leading fixed drivers on 6 wheel trucks&steamers at the apex. So you can run up a 4-5% grade or more if it is a short grade. For long grades 2% is best, 3% if you have locos with good traction. I think some ramping transition is already built into them, but not much.
It was also measured at about 2° digitally if I recall right. (the level can read ° or grade %)
I have always seen prototype railroad grades expressed in percent, or described explicitly as rise over run, for example 100 feet per mile (1.9% grade).
Here is the relationship between angle and percent - they are quite different.
I searched for instructions on graduated trestles and lo and behold:
http://www.lionel.com/articles...for-model-railroads/
I was going to post about other issues affecting ability of a train going up a grade, some of these are covered in the article. I have a Lionel AMTRAK GG1 with aluminum cars that can't even run on level curved track due to friction.
Attachments
Images (1)
Wayne, I agree that gentle slopes are desirable. The guys are always ready with serious facts and info, and give good advise. Sounds like you're all set, but you may want to consider this offering.
Sometimes, you gotta make exceptions and try things out to get the expansions you need in limited space. Here are two examples:
My most ridiculous slope. It rises 6 inches in 5 feet. ALL my 17 engines can easily climb it. Since it's only a spur, I took forum guy Adriatic's advise, took out the switch that used to connect it to a mainline, and converted it into a nice bump and go trolley line. You can see one of those NYC trolley's on a higher line. The trolley has no problem with that crazy slope.
This ramp (with the Pepsi Truck on it) goes up 6 inches in 12 feet. Much more gentle than a Lionel trestle set. The LCP that runs on this double reversing line pulls 16 cars without issue.
Hope this helps, good luck, and best wishes.
Jerry
Attachments
Images (2)
Here's a quick way to measure the percentage of grade. Click on the image for a larger view.
Grades up to 3% are easily manageable from an operational point of view. Once you get over 3%, operating on the grade becomes a problem.
Attachments
penn station posted:Here is the relationship between angle and percent - they are quite different.
Since the angle would be 0 to 90 and the grade would be 0 to 100, the angle and grade would logically be different.
100" horizontally to 1" vertically is a 1% grade, the math is pretty simple. So, for the 3% grade maximum that Rich suggests, you'll have to go about 17 feet to have a rise of 6" to create a 3% grade.
The percent grade can be 0 to infinity (at 90 degrees). That would be quite challenging except for one of Dale's creations! I was comparing degrees to percent for small angles to show you can't really use 2% and 2 degrees interchangeably.
How about negative slopes? How level must the track be for a piece of rolling stock to not away roll on its own?
It depends on the rolling stock, some will roll with a grade of a fraction of 1%, others will not roll on your 3% grade. 
anything over 2% is considered steep. Anything over 3% is considered very steep. ie 3 inches per 100.
The steepest cable car grade in San Francisco is 21% on Hyde Street. This is my son on the Hyde Street car. I was in the back because I wasn't up to hanging off the side of the car.
Attachments
Images (1)
A cable car isn't really much of a comparison, that's basically a crane with a trolley connected to it. Small wonder that it can pull the grade!
I believe Woodland Scenics has a chart on their web site that will give you that information. I found when looking at the flexible foam grades they sell. I used it and 5 inches over 8 feet was just under 2% grade.
RJT posted:I believe Woodland Scenics has a chart on their web site that will give you that information. I found when looking at the flexible foam grades they sell. I used it and 5 inches over 8 feet was just under 2% grade.
If that's what the chart says, Woodland Scenics doesn't understand grades!
Eight feet is 96", so "just over" is 100". A 5 inch rise for 100 inches of run is a 5% grade!
I just checked the Woodland Scenics site. As RJT said, there is a chart for Incline/Decline sets. The 2% set is 4 inches over 16 feet. The 3% set is 4.5 inches over 12 feet. The 4% set is 4 inches over 8 feet. You could get more height by using more pieces with shims. You could even mix these to get a vertical easement.
penn station posted:I just checked the Woodland Scenics site. As RJT said, there is a chart for Incline/Decline sets. The 2% set is 4 inches over 16 feet. The 3% set is 4.5 inches over 12 feet. The 4% set is 4 inches over 8 feet. You could get more height by using more pieces with shims. You could even mix these to get a vertical easement.
Right, but 2% is NOT 5" over 8 feet!
RJT posted:I believe Woodland Scenics has a chart on their web site that will give you that information. I found when looking at the flexible foam grades they sell. I used it and 5 inches over 8 feet was just under 2% grade.
Jim,
100% grade means the rise is equal to the run, i.e. 1:1. In your diagram you would have a 2 foot riser block for a 2 foot level. This is 45 degrees.
Now say you need a 4 foot riser block under the 2 foot level - that is a 200% grade - this is 63.4 degrees.
Say you need a 100 foot riser under the 2 foot level, that is a 5000% grade. That is 88.9 degrees.
Say you need a 1000 foot block under the 2 foot level, that is a 50,000% grade. That is 89.9 degrees.
As you approach 90 degrees the rise approaches infinity.
In your first diagram the run should be the base of the triangle, not the sloped portion (hypotenuse). On graph paper you would count over the length of the run, then up the length of the rise and draw the sloped line. The distance along the slope is found according to Pythagoras. As further evidence, the level is parallel to the base (run), and the block is parallel to the rise.
Run is defined as the horizontal distance (the X axis), not distance traveled. So 100% grade == 45 degrees.
Furthermore, here is a grade to degrees calculator, which confirms it -https://www.calcunation.com/ca...rcent-conversion.php.
For our modeling purposes though it's close enough - a 100" run at 4% grade = 100.08" of track.
don
Jim,
I agree, bottom line, there is not much difference for shallow angles.
One last try though. If you look at Rich's diagram which is similar to yours. The two measurements are the length of the level and the height at the right end of the level. The purpose of the level is to measure the horizontal distance. There is no measurement along the slope in the diagram.
