Inside A Vision Line GS-1 Hybrid- With "Surprises!!!!!"

@leapinlarry posted:

Ok, what’s PTC, it must be a protection piece of some kind, but what? Also, why the Canon motor when there are better ones available? This is great information, thsnk you very much all for chiming in, and Bruk for beginning the thread. Happy Railroading Everyone

I’ll answer the Cannon motor question Larry, ....Pittmans are no longer viable for use in our hobby. Ametek, the parent company of Pittman has priced themselves right out of our hobby. This isn’t Lionel’s fault. I’m sure they’ve done the best they could do in choosing a vendor for motors. I’m also sure cost, availability, and the vendor’s willingness to work with Lionel .....hope that makes sense,...

Pat

Larry, searching “PTC circuit protector”, I found this:

PTC Definition

– Polymer PTC (PPTC) Resistors are overcurrent protection devices. Like a fuse, they have two terminals and are placed in line with the circuit being protected.

– Under normal conditions, they act as a low value resistor – dissipating little power and barely warm.

– Under fault conditions, they heat up due to I2R (Ohmic heating; >100oC) and their resistance increases 1000X or more, limiting the current to a small value.

– When the current is removed, the PPTC will return to normal temperature and resistance, restoring the circuit.

PTC is an acronym For Positive Temperature Coefficient. Its a thermistor which as explained above changes its resistance with temperature. In a PTC the resistance increases as the temperature increases. In a negative temperature coefficient thermistor the resistance decreases as the the temperature increases.
How fast the they change determines how they are used.
The PTCs used in circuit protection change resistance rapidly in response to small increases in temperature. Its the current they pass that changes their characteristic.

Pete

And so why are these not installed by the manufacture???

@DaveGG posted:

And so why are these not installed by the manufacture???

You’d have to ask them that question,....

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

I’ll answer the Cannon motor question Larry, ....Pittmans are no longer viable for use in our hobby. Ametek, the parent company of Pittman has priced themselves right out of our hobby. This isn’t Lionel’s fault. I’m sure they’ve done the best they could do in choosing a vendor for motors. I’m also sure cost, availability, and the vendor’s willingness to work with Lionel .....hope that makes sense,...

Pat

Any idea how much Pittman motors sell for these days if a hobbyist wanted to purchase one? Does Ametek still make motors in the proper voltage, speed, size, and torque range that is suitable for O scale trains?
I can totally understand Lionel migrating to a different brand with costs going up. I’m just wondering what options are available to us hobbyists who would like to put better motors in these and other models.

@Ryan Selvius posted:

Any idea how much Pittman motors sell for these days if a hobbyist wanted to purchase one? Does Ametek still make motors in the proper voltage, speed, size, and torque range that is suitable for O scale trains?
I can totally understand Lionel migrating to a different brand with costs going up. I’m just wondering what options are available to us hobbyists who would like to put better motors in these and other models.

Sure, a single motor from Ametek will set you back a cool 150-200 dollars now,....they’re really not interested in playing with us anymore,.....aerospace, and medical is their main focus now......some Pittmans still available from Lionel, you’ll have check availability for a particular locomotive. We find motors on the secondary market, but you have to know what motors work with a given application, and even as important, what will fit!..

Pat

Wow, that’s a pretty serious jump in price. No wonder Lionel had to change suppiers. I was wondering about where you source your motors since you seem to do a lot of high end re-builds. Sounds like its a matter of knowing the Pittman product line and knowing where to look.

Thanks for the info

Sounds like ill have a VL GS-4, coming by my desk in a few days for a testing pre-inspection before delivery to the customer.

Ill take pictures of the inside and post if I find anything as well. More to come.....

@Bruk posted:

Sounds like ill have a VL GS-4, coming by my desk in a few days for a testing pre-inspection before delivery to the customer.

Ill take pictures of the inside and post if I find anything as well. More to come.....

I can hardly wait . . . 😁 Mind you,  a pre-delivery inspection sounds like a very good idea to me. Is this something that your store will do on request? I don't imagine it's free but certainly seems worthwhile to me.

@Hancock52 posted:

I can hardly wait . . . 😁 Mind you,  a pre-delivery inspection sounds like a very good idea to me. Is this something that your store will do on request? I don't imagine it's free but certainly seems worthwhile to me.

Yeah really!!....I’m sure many folks would gladly pay a professional like Bruk to open their stuff up and verify fit, finish, & operation!!.....Lionel should recognize this kind of customer care, not void any warranties, and not only compensate Bruk in some kind of way, but also give him the support needed to ensure product reaches the consumer in perfect working order,.......in the long run, they’d be saving ALOT of money, time & customer frustration on RA’s that Bruk could nip in the bud before the customer even sees it,....if the QC can’t be handled at the factory, then let highly competent techs like Bruk do a pre-delivery inspection,.......that sounds like a viable and realistic plan,..no??.....of course I hope I’m not putting words in Bruk’s mouth, .....that’s not my intention!!....

Pat

@Hancock52 posted:

I can hardly wait . . . 😁 Mind you,  a pre-delivery inspection sounds like a very good idea to me. Is this something that your store will do on request? I don't imagine it's free but certainly seems worthwhile to me.

Upon request,

Eastside Trains will do this for anything the customer purchases.

First, and interesting discussion.  Secondly, I can say with certainty that I'm not opening up mine both because mine is perfect and because I would not attempt want to void the warranty if it was broken.

I happen to think it is a superb loco in every way - just very impressed with how smoothly it runs and how great the sound is.  I don't have much use for the cylinder steam effect, but then I suspected that would be the case when I ordered it.  But I love the Force Coupler.  What a great idea!. 

I have a seven other Vision locos and I think this is the best one yet.

@Lee Willis posted:

First, and interesting discussion.  Secondly, I can say with certainty that I'm not opening up mine both because mine is perfect and because I would not attempt want to void the warranty if it was broken.

I think Bruks was perfect too.....until he opened it...

Yikes, my GS-1 is sitting on my shelf since I picked it up. I might have to break out a temporary loop to make sure it is functioning after seeing this thread. Great work Bruk on the in-depth review on the GS.

I do continue to pre-order from Lionel, but my concerns are growing(cough cough..milk cars, cough cough...paint colors). My new EM-1 has been at Lionel for about a month now and my H10 was also sent in about the same time(this one was more my fault, but gosh that boiler interior was a tangled mess to work with). If it wasn't for the features and innovation from Lionel, I don't think the hobby would have interested me much when I got into it back in 2015. Since then, my collection has grown to include a few Visionline Locos(4), only one of which had issues(Big Boy). Lionel does seem to do a decent job of getting their VL customers taken care of really well even after warranty term. I would never expect perfection(you'll only just get let down again and again), but I do expect service for these prices and I think they do fairly well.

@RickO posted:

I think Bruks was perfect too.....until he opened it...

You are correct Rick,

Everything was working just fine out of the box @Lee Willis it would have been a matter of time before that pinched and exposed blue motor wire rubbed through the paint then grounding out and taking the entire board out with it.

Sometime patience and 4 screws would save you a huge headache.

@Professor Chaos posted:

Too bad the magazines don't look inside when they review new products!  

The magazines don't own the testing units and are most likely on loan. No longer a simple disassembly. The hardest part is reassembly.

@romiller49 posted:

The magazines don't own the testing units and are most likely on loan. No longer a simple disassembly. The hardest part is reassembly.

These days the units are organized like this. Not like the TMCC days.....

@romiller49 posted:

The magazines don't own the testing units and are most likely on loan. No longer a simple disassembly. The hardest part is reassembly.

One of the places that MTH excelled at is ease of service. Usually 3-4 screws and a single connector will have the shell off. A single screw holding a diesel truck to its motor. No ME degree needed to work on their engines.

Pete

@Norton posted:

One of the places that MTH excelled at is ease of service. Usually 3-4 screws and a single connector will have the shell off. A single screw holding a diesel truck to its motor. No ME degree needed to work on their engines.

Pete

That is one best qualities with MTH: consistency in their designs. Their trains usually come apart in a very presictable way. Lionel on the other hand redesigns how there product fits together every 5 years. The scale diesels are the biggest offender. This was probably the worst part about doing repair at a Lionel service station. Every engine I worked on, it was an adventure in how to take it apart/put tit back together.

The small amount of MTH we did work on was always easy to take apart. The reliability of their electronics was a different matter.

@Ryan Selvius posted:

That is one best qualities with MTH: consistency in their designs. Their trains usually come apart in a very presictable way. Lionel on the other hand redesigns how there product fits together every 5 years. The scale diesels are the biggest offender. This was probably the worst part about doing repair at a Lionel service station. Every engine I worked on, it was an adventure in how to take it apart/put tit back together.

The small amount of MTH we did work on was always easy to take apart. The reliability of their electronics was a different matter.

I agree the diesels are annoying, But I NEVER had issues finding steam loco shell screws, the steam is consistent to 3-4 screws as the MTH.

….the JLC Allegheny....not simple.

I agree, the Lionel steam for the most part is great. A few locomotives can be troublesome. I remember the N&W Class A being particularly irritating. It seems like the earlier articulated engines were more difficult; Lionel was probably figuring out the finer points of mechanical design at the time. Non-articulated steam has been very consistent in regards to design and assembly.

Bruk,

Thanks for the education. Very informative. Not sure I have the stones to pull one apart yet. Great work.

Thank you for the photos, as a new person it was quite informative!

too many possible assembly issues to be unique to this one engine. I suspect ALL of the engines have one or more of these defects that has yet to surface.

PERFECTION IS AN ILLUSION.

I see the problems in this whole thread. I have stated many times to stop buying in this BTO era. What Bruk has exposed is the total lack of Lionels attitude in getting the products they have had built. 

It comes down to that Lionel is either incompetent in holding their builder accountable or they just don't care.

If they don't care then the game is over! Its well past the time they need to get quality control under control!!

They should've ashamed of the build quality that has their  name on it.

Dave

Wow, great post Bruk; I got 2 new engines this Christmas season - Legacy EM-1 and a Legacy Big Boy.

Took a cursory look at the innards of the Big Boy by removing the boiler (sacrilege) and didn't notice any issues - was impressed by the build quality and routing of the wires - maybe I'll take another look anyway.  Will also have a look at the EM-1 - couldn't hurt.  Would rather do that then get on that track of shipping a broke engine in for repair.

Some questions though Bruk: how did you fix the bare spot on the blue wire and how did you get the contact out of the plug to re-crimp the wire?

I think we should see what @Bruk finds out when/if he opens up another one of these GS series models. After all, there’s a really large number of versions, several with different features, and in what I’d guess was a large production run involving LOTS of hand assembly, there are going to be variations in how well it is done.

I agree that Lionel’s factory/factories assembly quality has been hit and miss over recent years and that must have an impact on customers’ willingness to take the plunge and pre-order. It certainly has with me.

P.S. I'd just add that scoring a success in sales volume terms, as Lionel appears to have done with this VL issue, pretty inevitably means that somewhere in the manufacturing process there will be glitches. They really could not have measured the demand for these locos, and individual versions of them, before pre-orders were in, and although we'll never know, I'd imagine it exceeded expectations. My concern is how this plays out in manufacturing terms given the significant volume of other products Lionel produces, but you can only judge that by results and what's posted here is probably a tiny sample of the full picture.

Just opened my VisionLine GS-2 #4414 (Lark)
Cat #2031470.

Couple of things.

• The engine tested and ran fine.
• The back apron was not attached.  I found it under the engine, laying on top of the rear trucks.
• The right rear blowdown hose/piping was bent.  I was able to mostly straighten this with a little finger pressure.

Back Apron -
I removed the two rear hinges still attached to the back of the engine.  Each are held on with a small screw with two mating pins to ensure proper alignment.  The hinges were "sprung" open a little.  The hinge pins on the apron, made of brass, were bent just a little with one sheared off.  Strange thing is when I placed the hinge back on the pins on the apron, the hinge did not have full travel.  The apron would only rise about half way and would not go to level.  There is a small brass "dog" stop that binds the hinge preventing its travel.  So now I have to ask myself if I should file this down and re-install the hinges.  I will call Lionel tomorrow and ask if this piece is available.  I hope I do not have to send this back.  Purchased from Legacy Station.

Would you mind posting a few more pictures of the Lark model? I really wanted to see what the production unit looked like. I’m having overwhelming temptation to get one at a later date once I’ve paid my preorders off.
The Lark version might be the neatest fantasy paint scheme Lionel has ever done IMHO. My only gripe was that they chose the GS-2 as the locomotive. As a fantasy model what if, the GS-4 would have been more plausible for SP.

you would think  based on the advertising propaganda that BUILT TO ORDER means that as fewer are made they would be made with more CARE.

it seems BTO means  BULLCRAPPED TOGETHER,

The GS-4:

Probably the nicest tooled GS-4 model Lionel has made. But once again, some build issues.

• Cosmetic issues with clear coat
• Runs in the clear coat.
• Wheel chipped, and axle bent.
• Excessive flux

Out of the box, dynamo didn’t work. The fan pulsed with every command from the LEGACY remote. I tried to reset it but nothing. I took the shell off and re-seated the plugs going to the SFC4. That seemed to fix the issue.

@Bruk Probably the least of the problems but what can be done about the clear coat? It looks a little like a sticker was applied there or it was wiped when wet.

I assume that the flux will clean up - assuming it might turn into a problem otherwise.

@Hancock52 posted:

@Bruk Probably the least of the problems but what can be done about the clear coat? It looks a little like a sticker was applied there or it was wiped when wet.

I assume that the flux will clean up - assuming it might turn into a problem otherwise.

The mark was from the box packaging, like the paint was not completely cured.

If I were to fix it, I would wet sand the problem area with 1000 grit. Mask off the oil bunker then respray entire top with Tamyia semi-gloss.

Not good. ☹️

@Bruk posted:

The GS-4:

Probably the nicest GS-4 model Lionel has made. But once again, some build issues.

I don't know. With all of these many issues, I'm not sure that would be my conclusion.  I would be hesitant to spend $1,800.00 on a project engine.   But there's no way I'd try to undertake the corrections. With all these issues shown, I'd definitely return the engine, but I'd be afraid the replacement would have issues, too.

For now, I think I'll be staying with my no. 11127. Cosmetically and operationally, it's flawless. Build quality seemed far better then. All those steam effects on the new ones look pretty cool, though. It would seem that the more do-dahs they put into these engines, the more chances there are for things to go wrong. The tradeoff.

Soldering job on that photo with the five switches looks to have been performed by a 5 year old,.     If not shiny and smooth there will be cold joint failure in your future.     I've been on/off/on again about my preorder from Lionel,.   perhaps I should be satisfied with what I have and skip any new stuff.

@breezinup posted:

I don't know. With all of these many issues, I'm not sure that would be my conclusion.  I would be hesitant to spend $1,800.00 on a project engine.   But there's no way I'd try to undertake the corrections. With all these issues shown, I'd definitely return the engine, but I'd be afraid the replacement would have issues, too.

For now, I think I'll be staying with my no. 11127. Cosmetically and operationally, it's flawless. Build quality seemed far better then. All those steam effects on the new ones look pretty cool, though. It would seem that the more do-dahs they put into these engines, the more chances there are for things to go wrong. The tradeoff.

I guess the mechanical and minor electrical issues don’t bug me too much since I’m not shy about fixing them. I have a lot of experience fixing far worse issues so most of these are really nuissances.
I have a personal story with the 11127 that made me gun shy about ever buying one. This is one of the early legacy models and the boards are the old TMCC style. The first legacy warranty repair job that came into the shop I worked at was one of these. After diagnosing, I determined the motor control board was bad. Called up Lionel and they sent a replacement. I installed it and the same problem remained. After calling them back, they asked if I was using a ground strap and working on a non-carpeted floor. I said no and I never had any issues replacing TMCC motor control boards (including Odyssy boards). That was when the technician told me the legacy boards were very sensitive to static electricity. After they sent a second board, I used a ground strap and went to the only room in the shop that didn’t have carpet: the restroom and did the board swap in there. The engine ran fine after that.

Because of that, I have stayed away from the early production legacy models. The redesigned boards are much better and more robust.

@Ryan Selvius posted:

That was when the technician told me the legacy boards were very sensitive to static electricity. After they sent a second board, I used a ground strap and went to the only room in the shop that didn’t have carpet: the restroom and did the board swap in there. The engine ran fine after that.

Because of that, I have stayed away from the early production legacy models. The redesigned boards are much better and more robust.

Boy that is a very handy piece of knowledge to have.

I also appreciate that you did it in the restroom haha that's amusing.

Just keeps getting better and better from the Big L. Flux on the boards will cause corrosion in time.  Messing with any electronics should be done at the least on a grounded anti static mat and the most have the mat and a grounded wrist strap.