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Inside Amtrak’s Dying Long-Distance Trains from the WSJ

Amtrak’s proposals for altering or eliminating some of its long-distance train routes, in favor of more frequent service where the population is growing, is facing opposition among those who fear rural America would suffer. WSJ’s Jason Bellini reports.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...=1&v=q-jP4vh3z_A

This video is from the Wall Street Journal’s YouTube Channel & it was published on July, 16, 2019 and as of today’s date it has 401,606 views. 

I feel that this video is a must watch for all Amtrak Passengers & Rail-fans. It tells the complete Amtrak story and issues facing Amtrak in seven minutes. We take the Amtrak several times a year, Detroit to Chicago and Detroit to Grand Junction, Colorado.  This video points out the biggest issue facing Amtrak, sharing the rails with freight trains.

Do you ride the Amtrak & what are your viewpoints ? • Please no political comments….. as stated in the OGR rule book……..

Take care: Gary 🚂

Last edited by trainroomgary
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I have been a long time advocate for better long and short distance services.   I also use the trains and help others to use Amtrak as well.  Amtrak provides a regular alternative to airline passengers stranded due to weather cancellations etc.  

One point that is incorrect, the Northeast corridor is only profitable if you separate out the costs of maintaining and paying for right of way, etc.  If you take all true costs, the long distance trains lose less money.  The true profits are the benefits to our communities, populations, and economic growth.

The benefits to our country outweigh the subsidy and are shown to return more in economic benefit to the communities served.  

 

Last edited by VistaDomeScott

My last long distance trip was on the California Zephyr from Oakland, CA to Chicago in 2006.  The train was about 6 hours late arriving in Chicago mostly due to freight train delays.  I know this because one of the passenger had a scanner and could listen to the dispatcher talking to train engineers.  We sat on many siding waiting for a freight to clear.  

I was amazed at how many people traveled between rural towns or boarded at small towns to go to Chicago.  The train definitely provided service to places that had no airline connections.  The train also carried many passengers who did not like to fly.  I met one Amtrak junky who seemed to spend his life traveling by train.  He had some 50,000 Amtrak miles and seemed to have been on every long distance train several times.  

The food on this trip was very good and the cheese cake was the best that I have ever had anywhere.  

I will be taking the Coast Starlight from Portland to Oakland in about a month.  I am looking forward to the trip and seeing how Amtrak long distance has changed since 2006.

I hope that Amtrak can find a balance between long distance trains and its corridors.  

NH Joe

 

Clarence Siman posted:

If the Government is going to subsidize Amtrak, then consider the feasibility of using abandoned or embargoed rail lines in the rural areas. Have a totally dedicated Amtrak line, or perhaps start a Trails to Rails campaign. Yes I know that the lines will have to be totally rebuilt, but at least Amtrak won't have to share the lines with freight.

That idea is great if we had truly adequate funding.  But  even with the current historic situation with bipartisan support for Amtrak, its such an annual political battle to win just keeping what we have.  I think the New York, Michigan, and Illinois model of adding track and upgrading tracks so that both Amtrak and the freight railroads benefit is our best hope.  

We took a cross-country trip on Amtrak twenty years ago and it was a bargain with their All Aboard America fares, about $1600 for family of four.  But that was a long time ago.

Since then my wife & I have taken several trips to Montreal, to Atlanta, to Savannah.  Fares have risen and service has diminished but it's still preferable herding cattle on a metal tube (air transport).

Northeast Corridor has been described as profitable but the NEC needs $42B (with a big B) in infrastructure updates.  So is it really profitable or are they stealing from the "money losing" long-distance trains? 

The gentleman in the video (sorry I forgot his name) suggests "value" to smaller cities and towns is paramount to "profit" for the lesser traveled lines.  I tend to agree. 

Scott has already addressed the “lie” that the Northeast Corridor is profitable so; enough said in that regard.

The hurdle to expanding service on Amtrak’s new regional corridors will be the Class 1’s.  Will they be receptive to hosting additional trains and at what cost for upgrading their infrastructure to accommodate the additional frequencies.

The video notes Atlanta - Macon; Atlanta - Charlotte; Atlanta - Birmingham; and Atlanta - Chattanooga.  NS is already hosting the Crescent over the Charlotte - Atlanta - Birmingham corridor and rarely can operate that one train on time.  What is the likelihood that adding trains in this corridor would experience any better handling?  With the advent of  PSR induced 12,000 - 14,000 foot trains operating through single track territory where sidings generally are 10-12,000 feet; it isn’t difficult to guess which train will take siding so a “land barge” can slog by.  (Still not sure; check what happens with Via’s Canadian on its CN route between Toronto and Vancouver.)

While additional frequencies would be ideal; I suspect the cost to make that happen would far exceed the cost to simply continue operating the existing long distance trains.

Curt

I think that it is unfair to lump infrastructure updates as a reason why a route is "unprofitable."  Considering that the infrastructure that needs updating is over 100 years old, any route that has such old infrastructure would be expensive to update.  If the infrastructure on the NEC is not going to be updated then you might as well shut the operation down, since not being able to access Manhattan directly will kill the NEC.  Nobody is going to go on Amtrak to Newark, transfer to PATH, transfer to the subway, to transfer to Amtrak at Grand Central to continue to Boston.

Stuart

 

Last edited by Stuart

When the railroads operated their own passenger trains, and sometimes other railroads' passenger trains, sharing the rails with freight trains did not seem to be that big of an issue--passenger trains usually operated on time and freight trains still made it to their destinations.  Some differences now are that their are far fewer passenger trains and Amtrak (National Railroad Passenger Corporation) and the freight railroads are different "companies."  The issue seems to be lack of cooperation between Amtrak and the host railroads.  If it could be done then, surely it can be done now.  I think incentivizing on-time performance worked better in the past than litigation. 

In the last 4 years I have traveled Amtrak first class across the country 7 times, the SW chief, The empire builder, the Zephyr, The lake Shore Boston to Chicago, & every winter on the Meteor NY to Miami. I have spent a lot of money taking Amtrak. I love the trains, & hope they never get discontinued. Just my 2 cents. That story in the WS Journal is old news.

Farmer_Bill posted:

Stuart, do you think it's fair to split up the $42B NEC costs and allocate on per mile basis across the long distance routes?   That's my understanding of their current accounting practice.  

Do the freight railroads allocate their infrastructure costs over their entire systems?  As far as I'm concerned infrastructure costs should be born by the entire system, not just the part of the system that needs it at the time. Right now it's the NEC, next time Raton Pass. 

Stuart

 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The trains just have to be a priority as a mode of transportation like they are in Europe and the Far East.  Somehow they manage to run trains on time in those locations.

 

 

 

Might be because they have the population density?  The Empire Builder runs through North Dakota, with a population of 760,00.  Montana barely has a million. 

Kent in SD

Farmer_Bill posted:

Stuart (don't mean to pick on you by the way), when there were financial concerns over the SW Chief route those costs were not spread across the system, rather they were used to "justify" bus transfers instead of through trains which would have effectively crippled the line.  Fortunately saner heads prevailed, at least for a time. 

Framer Bill,

No problem.  Friendly debate is good for everyone.  I don't claim that what I say is correct, just my opinion.  If I'm wrong I like to know about it.

Stuart

 

I'm not a big fan of government subsidies for any industry.  However, passenger trains have historically been treated completely different from our other modes of transportation -- specifically interstate highways and airlines.  It's time we level the playing field and allow Amtrak to soar like our airports and highways, heavily funded by big brother.  If you don't agree, then we ought to cut back on government support for roads and airways and privatize it all and let the best modes of transportation survive.  Perhaps this latter environment would make a hop on a long distance train a much better experience than the alternatives.

Rather than try to rebuild defunct lines into dedicated passenger routes, wouldn't it be cheaper to double or triple track in areas where freight bottlenecks happen?  The defunct lines are defunct for a reason.  Usually(not always) freight goes to the same places people go.  So recreating the NYO&W or the Lehigh Valley might not be the way to go.  But a third dedicated track between Albany and Chicago...

Jon

Interesting story- thanks for posting it Gary.

I've traveled the NE corridor on business and we've taken the Auto-train many times. The NE corridor, while profitable, needs major work. The track in many areas is not adequate for the Acela and causes the train to run slower than max speed. The work that Amtrak needs to do in NY is in the tens of billions. Tunnels on both sides of Manhattan were all flooded with salt water in Sandy. They all need to be completely re-built. Amtrak owns these assets (including Penn station), and is in a constant battle with the LIRR, NJ Transit, PATH, over making the necessary repairs. I will give them credit for updating many of the tracks and switches in Penn Station (shown in the video).

The Auto-train is a unique niche in Amtrak's service that we find to be a great alternative to driving I-95 from NY to Florida. Amtrak may want to think about expanding this service onto other routes as a way to draw more business. The service has been good over the almost 20 years we have ridden,  but the quality has slipped as they try to cut costs. We have been lucky and most trains have run on or close to schedule. We have heard the nightmare stories from other riders of being stuck behind a dead CSX freight for hours and hours though. Waiting for our car to be unloaded has been the biggest cause of our delays.

I agree that Amtrak would benefit from a dedicated ROW in many areas. Especially when you consider how bumpy the ride is on freight trackage. A full second or third track along existing ROW's would probably be the most cost effective solution. If Amtrak went to a hub and spoke model like the airlines do then they may be able to turn a profit. The example shown of the Atlanta/ deep south would be a good start. Run one or two trains a day to the surrounding cities and use Atlanta as a hub.

Finally- unless rail travel is embraced like it is in most other parts of the world I fear it will fade into history just like steam engines did.

Bob

We take the NE Corridor Amtrak train from Philadelphia to Boston 3 times a year. They are not affected by freight trains, and the only delays have been caused by track work, as well as 2 engine breakdowns over the years. We take this train because flying such a short distance is not worth the airport BS. I hate to drive over 2 hours.

We have taken the Crescent to New Orleans, the Silver Meteor to Florida, and the Sunset Limited to Arizona. This was just for the "fun" of riding the rails. We've flown home. However, these trains ARE affected by freight traffic, not so much on the Florida run, but VERY much on the Crescent. I did a Nov '18 to April '19 study of Crescent arrivals, and 2 1/2 hours late was "normal". We felt lucky that ours was only 1 1/2 hours late (a few times the Crescent was up to 10 hours late). It was "on time" only on Christmas Eve and Christmas day, probably due to no freight. On these "overnight" trains, my wife and I (both in our mid-70s) each have our own roomette. We've had no complaints about the trains or the service.

I am wondering if the the long distance trains are full or nearly full.  Perhaps someone who has taken the Crescent, SW Chief, Empire Builder, etc., recently could provide their impression.  It seems to me that if the trains are full they are providing an essential service even if they lose money.

However, if these trains are running empty then they should probably be eliminated.   

Roads, airports, river and costal travel, and all highways are heavily subsidized by the government.  Some service to rural airports is subsidized to $200 per ticket.  

NH Joe

New Haven Joe posted:

I am wondering if the the long distance trains are full or nearly full.  Perhaps someone who has taken the Crescent, SW Chief, Empire Builder, etc., recently could provide their impression.

I think "impressions" should be avoided. Not everyone traveling on these "long distance" trains are traveling long distance. The main exception is the Auto Train. First-off, it makes no stops along the way. Second, you can count the rail cars going past the live-cam cameras at Ashland, VA. Each rail car carries 10 autos (5 above 5). 300 autos (30 rail cars) is maximum. Most Auto Trains I have seen are made up of 28-30 rail cars, which makes them full-up. There is one Auto-Train north and one south each day.

There are 2 regular Florida trains going both north and south each day. The Silver Meteor takes about 26 hours to get to Miami from NYC, and has a dining car as well as a buffet. The Silver Star takes 4 hours longer because it visits the gulf coast on its way to Miami. It does not have a dining car, just a buffet. It also costs less.

The Crescent runs every day. The Sunset Limited 3 days a week.

One interesting thing we found out...your vacation starts the minute you arrive at the train station. With flying, your aggravation starts the minute you enter the airport.

I think the freight railroads in this county are going the wrong direction.  Instead of all these massive trains everywhere, fast and short would be better in some places.  Take some spine cars.  Put highs speed trucks on them.  For fast freight out of Houston in the TX Triangle, that might work.  Houston is the closest US deep water Gulf port to the Panama Canal.  Maybe combine this with a passenger train.  Have a fair cost/profit split.  At least try it.  Before Amazon buys a western and eastern road, and does it itself.

Last edited by Dominic Mazoch

It's pretty hard to talk about Amtrak without getting political, but I'll try. We are dealing with two competing views here. One view is that railroad passenger service must be profitable to be worth while. The other view is that it is a public service that the government provides, regardless of profitability.

We are currently in a business dominated cycle, and the WSJ video expresses that, but the former mayor of Meridian rebutted that rather eloquently.

Why does high speed rail work in China, and not in the US, even though both countries are similar in land area? The reasons are very simple, population density, and political will. In China, when the president says we are going to do something it happens. There's no argument or debate. At right around three times the population of the US, they have the density, but they aren't even in it for the money. They are in it for the public good.

The US is the exact opposite. Everything is about the money. There is no money in serving empty spaces. Our rail system is very much like our health care system, a cobbled together patchwork made from competing interests. If the bean counters ultimately had their way, the only rail passenger service this country would have, would be the NEC.

As imperfect as the US is, I don't think most of us would like living in China. Just look at what is happening in Hong Kong.

I love Amtrak, always have, but I don't ride it anymore, for a couple reasons. It doesn't go where I want to go, and it doesn't get there when I want to get there. I get in my car, and I set the schedule and the stops. In a couple weeks I'm going to North Platte, Nebraska.  Amtrak can't get me there. Went to Duluth last weekend for the Big Boy, no passenger service there. Vegas? Not anymore. I've taken numerous trips to Chicago over the last ten years, Amtrak is not the way to go. The schedule is horrible, even if they are on time. It's a lot cheaper to drive, than buy two tickets, and not have a car when I get there.

The freight railroads have wanted to rid themselves of the passenger business since the 60's, when they realized it wasn't profitable anymore due to planes and automobiles. They partially got their wish when the NRPC AKA Amtrak was formed in 1971. If you were to compare the Amtrak map from 1971, with the map of today, you would see just how many routes have vanished. In a way this latest effort is just a continuation of that practice. They are trying to eliminate the most stubborn routes.

I'm really torn on this. As a railfan I never want the passenger trains to go away, but as a matter of practicality, they are much like zombies of the rails. Do we continue to settle for mediocrity or throw up our hands and quit?

About a month ago, I posted (on the Real trains OGR forum) about my family's experience riding the high speed Italian trains - in part to note that Italy is catching up with some of the European high speed rail leaders, like France, Germany, and Spain (to name but three) and to also note the increasingly interconnected high speed rail across Europe. There's a 1400 mile corridor from Berlin to Palermo, for example. Obviously, there's been a massive investment in the infrastructure needed to support HSR - most (as far as I know) from the various governments involved.  One private rail company in Italy, Italo, has taken advantage of that investment and is now offering competition to Trenitalia (government owned).  Presumably Italo pays something toward those infrastructure costs.

The obvious question is why the US is unable (more likely, unwilling) to see HSR as a necessary part of the the future - and greener - transportation infrastructure.  Here's a recent, interesting discussion of some of this - its somewhat California-centric (where the proposal for HSR between the SF Bay Area and LA has been a huge political football).  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qaf6baEu0_w 

The claim is often made (opponents to HSR in CA have used this argument as well) that HSR is only successful in densely populated corridors, but the massive amount of HSR developed in China in the past decade (something like 19,000 miles) suggests that isn't necessary - what is necessary is the political will (and vision) and, in the end, government involvement.  From a subsidies point of view, rail is the poor step-child to air and highways (in terms of moving people).

richs09 posted:

About a month ago, I posted (on the Real trains OGR forum) about my family's experience riding the high speed Italian trains - in part to note that Italy is catching up with some of the European high speed rail leaders, like France, Germany, and Spain (to name but three) and to also note the increasingly interconnected high speed rail across Europe. There's a 1400 mile corridor from Berlin to Palermo, for example. Obviously, there's been a massive investment in the infrastructure needed to support HSR - most (as far as I know) from the various governments involved.  One private rail company in Italy, Italo, has taken advantage of that investment and is now offering competition to Trenitalia (government owned).  Presumably Italo pays something toward those infrastructure costs.

The obvious question is why the US is unable (more likely, unwilling) to see HSR as a necessary part of the the future - and greener - transportation infrastructure.  Here's a recent, interesting discussion of some of this - its somewhat California-centric (where the proposal for HSR between the SF Bay Area and LA has been a huge political football).  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qaf6baEu0_w 

The claim is often made (opponents to HSR in CA have used this argument as well) that HSR is only successful in densely populated corridors, but the massive amount of HSR developed in China in the past decade (something like 19,000 miles) suggests that isn't necessary - what is necessary is the political will (and vision) and, in the end, government involvement.  From a subsidies point of view, rail is the poor step-child to air and highways (in terms of moving people).

Once again, population density in Europe is sufficient and distances are manageable, to the point where trains can compete with planes and surpass cars. The countries are small, France being about the size of Texas, and they only get smaller from there. Then each country forms it's own high speed network, and before you know it, you have a network that spans the continent.

Another hurdle for the US is that HSR needs a dedicated right of way. No sharing tracks with freight. All new infrastructure. I'll just take a guess at $2,000,000 per mile, how many would you like? How many would we need?

The bottom line is no right minded business person would ever want to get involved, so that just leaves the government. That doesn't seem to be going anywhere fast. Sad to say, but China succeeds, where we fail. Get used to hearing that. The writing is on the wall. 

 

One of my kids lives in Europe (on the continent). We’ve had the passenger trains discussion many times, i.e., why do they thrive there and not so much here. Every time the answer is the same: “culture.”

Certainly not discounting economics, politics, and geography or any of the other well thought out comments above. Just thought I’d throw this into the discussion.

Elliot -  Just to riff a bit on your going to North Platte, NE - indeed, you can't get there by train anymore.  Back in the day (well, in my days growing up in NE), Union Pacific ran their "City of..." trains through central NE on their main corridor, with stops in North Platte (always seemed to be in the middle of the night, at least on the westbound City of Portland).  Now, the only train service is the CA Zephyr, which uses the BNSF trackage along the southern part of NE.

Curious, I took a look at commercial air travel into NE - turns out there are 9 airports with commercial air service (including North Platte) - of which seven get subsidies from something called the Essential Air Service program, run out of the US DoT (Omaha and Lincoln are the exceptions - as you might expect).  Here's a brief excerpt from wikipedia (here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_Air_Service):

"The United States Department of Transportation (USDOT) subsidizes airlines to serve communities across the country that otherwise would not receive scheduled air service.  As of June 1, 2015, 159 communities in the US received EAS subsidies, of which 44 were in Alaska, two were in Hawaii, and one community in Puerto Rico. The decision as to what degree of subsidized service a community requires is made based on identifying a specific hub for the community and from there determining the number of trips, seats, and type of aircraft that are necessary to serve that hub."

Apparently, these subsidies range from around $10 per passenger to almost $1000 per passenger (across the EAS program, not just for flights into NE).  I'm not complaining about the EAS program so much as to further argue that passenger transport is not a level, unsubsidized playing field - except for Amtrak.  You could go further and argue that its not just unlevel, but its a rigged playing field - another argument for another time...

 

Culture may be a factor for the Europeans, but it's really a factor for the Chinese. The eastern mindset is more about the greater good and less about the individual. I recently watched Richard Engle On Assignment, where the topic was China. The stuff they are doing over there is both amazing and scary. 

It almost seems that the US is Dr Frankenstein, and China is the monster.

There was a reason that the " for profit" train companies stopped passenger service.  Call it culture, obsolescence, competiton for transportation $, or common sense.  They wanted to stay in business.

Unlike the post office, FCC, FDA, FBI, Armed Forces, etc., it is a subsidy that is not desired or needed by anywhere near the majority of Americans (except OGR).

If it was, it could survive on it's profits.  We dont build toll roads to nowhere in Western Texas cause it's not profitable.

I don't want to subsidize a phone land line for AT&T in every house just because it used to be that way.  I also have no desire to live in Europe,  China,  Canada or South America. 

As terrible as things are in the USA, everybody wants to come here and no one seems to be leaving .  Even the Hollywood blow hards that promised to move after the last election are still here. 

America must be doing something right with the resources, culture and the location it has.  In spite of the media's opinion, we just don't have enough money to buy everything for everybody.

Elliot makes a lot of valuable points, and one of the problems we have in the US is historically we have been really bad at doing things like planning and deciding the kind of things we are facing with rail travel, you mention planning and you get a lot of people coming out of the woodwork crying about various ism's, it is a plot, etc. What happens is we then often end up doing things ad hoc when the stuff hits the fan, we do crisis management rather than preventing it (in many ways, it is a direct parallel to health care and how we deal with it).  One of the reasons for planning, in this case on a national scale, is to allow it to be analyzed across the board and to try to take out the tunnel vision that often cripples things with local interest or worse.  A discussion about Amtrak has to be done on a national basis, on what is good for the country, as well as what is good for areas. One of the things that requires is having someone do an analysis who doesn't have a vested interest, the way for example congressional committees do, or having it done by a finance type who thinks only in dollars and cents. I'll give you examples of this, and why it causes so many problems, when it comes to trains:

1. Those who argue if rail service had value, it would pay for itself, the way 'other industries do'. Sounds rational to those who argue that, or who say "why should I pay for what others use?". On the other hand, there are a lot of businesses out there operating where they don't pay for themselves, it is not exactly new business operations.  Analysis shows Government subsidizes the airlines and roads/trucking industry, shippers use ports run by governmental agencies often at prices cheaper than cost, industries operating where federal dams provide power (the TVA districts, including the auto transplants in Kentucky and Tennessee, manufacturing in the pacific northwest), where they get the power at cost, compared to triple those rates from private power.  So those subsidies to the trucking industry mean things get delivered cheaper than they otherwise would; cheap power creates jobs across a region that before TVA had relatively few...so arguing that about trains is nothing more than self interest

2. Likewise, when making spending decisions, you cannot simply look at the cost versus revenue, especially with infrastructure like this. If the NE corridor needs 42 billion in capital spending, analysis requires saying what is the cost if I don't do this?Not only opportunity cost in the possibility of more travel on the NE, if it runs faster with fewer delays, but also declines if the service starts to deteriorate....then, too, if the NE corridor isn't fixed, what happens to already crowded air corridors and roads? How much would we need to spend to fix roads, how much money will be lost to delays for extra traffic on roads, for crowded airlines, cost of upgrading flight systems to handle more traffic, etc? There are costs to doing/not doing things, and they need to be accounted for. 

3.Then too there are what is known as social costs, and they are harder to discern. For example, what happens to the small towns that lose rail service? Does it have no impact, or does it help cause the further decline of a town, the perception that it is dead (and obviously, I am asking that as a question, not as an answer).  How will people who can't drive long distances feel, especially if there is no local airport? And if it doesn't matter, then why as a matter of policy do we subsidize flying into airports in relatively lightly traveller rural areas, why not have them drive to the nearest airport in a more populated area? 

The reason that China spent money of trains, including high speed trains, is based on need. China's manufacturing is generally located in certain areas, near the coastal region, around some of the bigger cities, and they have been relying on labor that comes from elsewhere in the  country. At certain times of the year, especially Chinese New Year, they have large mass migrations of people, and need the trains to handle that. Too, China also I suspect learned lessons from other places, like Europe and yes, the US, and looked at the costs of people travelling by car, looked at airline congestion, and I believe they decided that trains helped create a balanced approach. For one thing, China doesn't have the penetration of the car we do, and while they have built a lot of roads and highways, a lot of people don't have cars..so they have a need.

Europe made a decision post world war II when it came to travel, and they decided to emphasize the trains over individual travel in cars. Given how crowded Europe can be, given the cost of building and maintaining roads, and also how dependant they are on importing oil and gas, they decided it made more sense to favor trains, while also for example making it expensive to drive cars (the registration fees are high, and gas taxes make gasoline 8 or 9 bucks a gallon last I checked). 

The US obviously is unique, and we have unique problems, too. China is one country and they don't have quite the balance between central government and regions, as someone pointed out, the US because of our dual system of federal government and local government, it can be hard to do the kind of policy we are talking about. You can have where a state government doesn't care about rail travel, actively opposes it, while you have local congressmen who gets upset when Amtrak cancels service in his/her area *shrug*. 

In the end questions like the ones I posed need to be answered, looking at all the factors when it comes to rail travel and see what conclusions can be drawn from that, what needs investment, what makes sense, what doesn't, which isn't being done today. Whether it is Amtrak themselves,  elected officials, rail fans, Joe Public, you name it, my view of it is that they all come into this with bias and their 'answers' are framed that way, whether it is the person resentful of 'paying for those people to use trains' (leaving out their own hand in the till), or the congressman with one hand wanting to slash government spending on Amtrak saying 'the government shouldn't be in the rail business' while pushing for subsidies for businesses they care about, or infrastructure for their area, etc. Almost everyone agrees, if with varying views, that the NE corridor makes sense (whether they think it should be run privately or by the government, subsidized but run privately, how much should be spent), but we need an overall picture to make the real decisions, and that is one thing I doubt we will see. 

A lot of good info and thoughts presented.

I really wonder about the value of "high speed" rail in the US. Would there be a giant leap in travel between NYC and Florida if the trip went from 26 hours to 12? NYC to Miami is only 3 hours by air, and equal to or less cost than rail. Certainly all rail travel in other lands is not "high speed". I've only traveled on "regular speed" trains in Italy, Germany, and Poland. Maybe the average traveler in the US is more able to afford flying compared to people in other countries.

The size of our country is really, really BIG. My mother-in-law used to rent rooms to young people from England so they could work for the summer at beach resorts in southern Delaware. It was common for them to talk about wanting to spend a day off in Florida, or a weekend in Hollywood, CA.

Think about the near term future (say 20-30 years).  Does the prospect of inexpensive solar, improved batteries and robotic electric vehicles (with a couple of beds) seem more or less attractive to use existing infrastructure (roads) or spending hundreds of billions of dollars doing high speed rail?  Technology may make some or all of these issues moot.  High speed rail may only make sense for certain areas of the country in any case.  The days of passenger rail service of any sort to rural areas is permanently over is my guess.

 

If the greedy airlines are dragging doctors off of oversold flights (and pretty much treat everyone else like cattle), heaven knows that America needs an alternative.  I would like to see Amtrak get a real budget, and reinvest in its long-distance trains, perhaps even add some that have been discontinued since 1970.  The Class 1s shouldn't complain too loudly--Amtrak relieved them of their responsibility to carry passengers, that was implicit in their original charters.  I'm still some years away from retirement.  But if I had more free time to travel, I would NEVER buy an airline ticket if I had a choice!

Last edited by Ted S
Joe Hohmann posted:

A lot of good info and thoughts presented.

I really wonder about the value of "high speed" rail in the US. Would there be a giant leap in travel between NYC and Florida if the trip went from 26 hours to 12? NYC to Miami is only 3 hours by air, and equal to or less cost than rail. Certainly all rail travel in other lands is not "high speed". I've only traveled on "regular speed" trains in Italy, Germany, and Poland. Maybe the average traveler in the US is more able to afford flying compared to people in other countries.

The size of our country is really, really BIG. My mother-in-law used to rent rooms to young people from England so they could work for the summer at beach resorts in southern Delaware. It was common for them to talk about wanting to spend a day off in Florida, or a weekend in Hollywood, CA.

Clearly, the foreigners did not grasp the distances involved, especially when they come from a much smaller country. Either that, or they were never planning on taking the train in the first place.

We love our trains because they are nostalgic, and a big part of this country's history. From a practical stand point though, they are obsolete. We got to the moon 50 years ago because Kennedy basically threw down the gauntlet, and NASA and the rest of the nation picked it up. Unfortunately, HSR isn't as "sexy" as being the first man on the moon. That would be Mars, not Miami. The problem is there's really nothing of value, except knowledge of the universe, on Mars. We have plenty of more pressing issues here on Earth.

Without authoritarian rule, the Chinese model of HSR won't work here in the US. Maybe the European model could be deployed here, where each state or small group of states would create a system that works for them. Start with regional systems, not a national system, and slowly build outward from there. This way we are only trying to cover practical distances.

Texas would be a great place to start, because they have a lot of large cities. A Dallas, Austin, San Antonio, Houston triangle would make sense, distances that are too short to fly, but better than driving Then expand out from there, Oklahoma City, New Orleans, El Paso. And so it begins, because we are starting from scratch.

Bigkid -- I very much agree with your list of questions and your thoughts on the same.  I would add a fourth category, which is environmental - both in terms of the environmental impacts of the various transport modes (an analysis likely to be corridor-dependent) and in terms of being able to accommodate a greener future.  For the latter, it certainly appears that electricity is going to be the energy form of choice for the intermediate future - as long as the electricity generation is green (or can become so).  Here in CA, we face the conundrum of having too much PV-generated energy in the summer - even though demand goes way up with the need for air conditioning, etc.  What we really need is a means of storage that is highly efficient, grid-scale and absolutely reliable (my sense is that isn't too big an ask... but its not an easy problem).

A couple of thoughts on the points you make - our government has always been in the business of subsidizing 'things' that are thought to have some 'societal benefit'  (and of course, a lot of things whose only benefit was -- uhhh - limited to just a few members of society...).  The TVA - and its western US counterpart, BPA, not to mention REA (rural electrification - not railway express) - are prime examples of that - for the reasons you state (there were, of course, a few individuals who also profited ...).  The interstate highway system is largely paid for by the US gummint - and it started with essentially a dual purpose - the civilian population and economy and national defense -- the latter was of concern (in 1955) because it was still thought that evacuation of cities was possible in the event of an "atomic attack".  It turns out, a third purpose was also at play according to Eisenhower's biographer (Ambrose) - a public works program that would employ a lot of people (gee, spending on infrastructure, what a novel thought).

One of the two youtube videos - either the one from the Wall Street Journal or the one from CNBC - noted that many passengers on otherwise long distance trains aren't riding the whole way (I think the example was the Crescent from DC to NO) - so there is a regional transportation benefit to having improved rail corridors.

The comment about subsidizing air service - my example was looking to see what air service is currently available in my home state of NE -- all seven of the airports with some subsidized service are west of Omaha and Lincoln - that's about 400 miles of territory.  Where I went to high school in western NE, it was 250 miles to Denver and about the same to Omaha.  So if one eliminates subsidized air service (even though its basically a couple of flights a day for most of those seven airports), that's a fur piece to go to get to an airplane...

One way to solve the problem is to just let Amtrak die. Maybe somebody else will pick up the pieces or maybe not. At least we can all stop talking about the mess that is Amtrak every few months. 

You will never get people to use trains for long distance travel. Sorry but that is the truth. 

There will never be coast to coast trains anymore, if any they will be local and ran by local governments or entity's. 

Dave

 

In the August, 2019 issue of "Trains", columnist and author Fred W. Frailey in the article "Another Train Derails", discusses California High Speed Rail, Texas Central, a high-speed line between Dallas and Houston, and Virgin Trains, a not-so-high-speed line between Miami and Orlando.  He also mentions a light rail line 17 miles long between Durham, North Carolina and Chapel Hill, N.C. projected to cost 3 billion.  Also, in the same issue, columnist Bob Johnson pens an article entitled "Local Opposition Threatens Expansion", projects challenged in Florida, Texas, California and the Midwest.  Excellent articles.

Re: Passenger Operations Profit:  except for very specific (and relatively short) periods in very specific places, essentially, passenger service never  was profitable.  RRs ran passenger trains because it made sense to do so for a variety of reasons (including luring freight dollars), but freight operations almost always paid the bills.  Moreover, much of the passenger revenue was the result of mail contracts.  The big question became not so much Profit vs. Loss but How Much Loss, especially when the mail contracts were cancelled (a LOT of lobbying went into that decision).  Gov't regs also figured into the equation.

Yep,environmental concerns could be another factor, electric proplusion seems to be making critical mass, I amazed at how rapidly it seems to be evolving. One channel I follow on you tube pointed out that even in west virginia, where something like 99% of their power comes from coal, that an electric car charged there produces something like 30% of the co2 a gas engine car does on a per mile basis. In California it is even greater, where close to 50% of their electricity is from renewables...so that could be a big factor compared to planes or cars/buses.

As someone else pointed out long distance train travel might make no sense other than as a tourist trip,but if you look at long distance train travel as a series of hops,might make sense in some contexts, if people are doing 'hops' rather than the whole way.  As an analogy, look up airline flights a d think about the hub and spoke context. If you were flying from NY to LA,you can fly direct, but you also could fly hub to hub, NY to Atlanta,atl to dallas,dallas to san diego,sd to la....not very useful,but the interhop trips would be. W long distance rail the real value would be stop to stop(s) potentially, but some would still go end to end (in other words,long distance rail would be a string of waypoints strung together). High speed rail could make longer distances viable, at 300 mph (not undoable) Chicago to NY city to city center would compete w airline travel (a big if,I know)

As far as letting Amtrak die someone wants it to run,despite a lot of political flack over it,the freight lines wanting it to disappear, those who jones for the auto and airline industries and think trains are somehow evil or un-american,somehow even w government controlled by those assumed to be skeptical about trains,they end up surviving. That being the case,makes more sense to rationalize service rather than keeping it on life support, neither outright horrible nor particularly notable, 50 years of limbo is kind of silly.

One thing that I note with opposition to high speed rail,for some reason people who go nimby w rail are often okay w building new highways and expanding older ones,then complain about the noise and pollution they bring...

 

 

 

We've traveled by rail long distance nearly exclusively for the last 20 years and just about every train we have been on was very crowded or completely sold out. We've been cross country as far as Seattle, as far North as Chicago and as far South as New Orleans.  If you don't book months out its difficult to get a seat or sleeper. Amtrak long distance trains generate high revenue.  The losses that you read about are only caused by Amtrak's faulty accounting system that amortizes all expenses on the system per train including the cost of stations and track maintenance on the NE Corridor, even though the train is nowhere near it. The Long distance trains under a good accounting system would actually show a profit. The long distance trains also account for much of the economic wealth of the small towns along the routes that they serve, bringing in tourist dollars and serving the communities that have little or no other public transportation. The Amtrak employee payroll is also a false indicator. Being government owned the IRS takes back 20-25% of their salaries in incomes taxes.

Last edited by Dennis LaGrua

A couple of years ago, I went to Washington, DC (actually Rockville MD)

for the 50th O Scale show. I left Omaha, NE (Go Big Red) at 5:00 A.M. and arrived in Chicago about 1:30. The ride was uneventful. I divided the trip this way, outbound a sleeper car, return coach. We left Chicago at 5 and headed on to Rockville, Maryland. There was some talk about the new "boxed dinner" that had been announced a few weeks earlier. We had a surprise when spareribs were announced, quite good along with a drink from the bar. We arrived only a 1/2 hour late. 

Now the return trip on coach was actually pretty interesting. We left Rockville, MD. at 5 pm. Dinner came from the snack car with a sandwich, chips, and a beer was around $12.00. I spent more time in the observation car watching people and reading. My gosh, did the guy behind me snore. A few hours in Chicago and then Omaha at midnight. I checked into a motel as I was not looking forward to a 2 hour drive back to Sioux City.

The trip was good but I probably won't take coach again.

Dick

Isn't there somewhat of a chicken and egg thing here?  If long distance rail travel was NICE, wouldn't more people want to do it?  I'm struggling with the idea that passenger travel is dead like the type writer.  Why?  Because, as someone stated earlier, technology is changing and those changes make rail travel desirable if we embrace technology and vote for trains.  My wife refuses to fly and she is not alone.  Since 9/11 there are people that don't like the friendly skies.  Combine that with the small, tight seats, no overhead compartments, growing cities that make it difficult to get to the airport,  and having to get there 2 hours early to pass security, and airlines are not as great as they used to be.  Isn't it possible that high speed rail has the potential to get you from Chicago to Detroit in a far more comfortable way in the same amount to time that it takes to get to the airport early and subject yourself to the hassles of flying?  Wouldn't it be nice to stretch out and go online and get some work done in the process on a train?  And perhaps you can have a cup of coffee with someone new in the process?  Why can't we expand this idea to longer distance travel?  I have traveled by Amtrak in sleeping cars and they have the same potential to make the vacation journey as fun as they always have.  All they need is upgrades, speed and then word of mouth that they are now better than ever.   Railways in the U.S. historically have had to pay their own way.  Perhaps because of the lucrative beginnings, railroads were always subject to anti-trust and public views that they were greedy capitalists.  When airlines and highways came into play, the government subsidized them.  Railroads were not.  Railroads paid for their entire infrastructure without government help.  So passenger service died.  Amtrak was a weak government program that was always looked at like it was a welfare program -- differently than airlines and highways -- our politicians got it right that it was worth keeping it alive.   But strict, tight budgets and constant cost cutting objectives make it a recipe for failure.  Amtrak is late because they rent rails from the freight companies and do not have priority.  That's a half-assed way to run a passenger rail service or any business.  If you are okay with government spending money on airports and highways, then why not be okay with spending money on trains?  Let the states experiment with fast trains using federal funds.  Then take what we learn from the states and build a high-speed federal train system that works.  Inter city rail is an essential part of modern life.  The politicians love the northeast because they use it all the time to get to and from Washington.  Removing some of the players from the highways and airlines and putting them on efficient trains might make all of our lives less stressful.  And, in the process, OGRR readers will have an ever expanding choice of model trains to play with and read and write about!

China does not borrow money. They control their money.

The forming of the Fed. High treason. This country ..since 1913 borrows money. Why we are in debt. And have a failing rail service. 

You think the CEO of Amtrak really cares. Sure he worked for railroads. But he is an airline schill. 

Alan. Dealing with this post. One has to state the facts..

Amtrak Services in the Great State of Michigan

Amtrak in Michigan

We also like taking the Amtrak to New York City & Washington DC via the Amtrak Bus to Toledo, Ohio. Amtrak has several overnight vehicle storage lots for their riders.

On football weekends Amtrak has the football trains going in and out Ann Arbor, Michigan.  To the “Big House” at the University of Michigan.

Gary 🚂

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  • Amtrak in Michigan

Passenger rail is not dying. To the contrary if you look at the growth over the last 10 years it has been phenomenal.  Today 300 million Americans fly and 31.7 million Americans travel using Amtrak. The service takes in $3.4 billion in revenue, while employing more than 20,000 people.  Amtrak also covers about 95% of its costs from ticket revenue. Its does receive a small government subsidy that some complain about (3% of the national transportation budget)  but other forms of transportation receive far more.  Buses and cars run on government owned highways while airlines use government owned airports. Our travel is 99% by train and we don't see it changing.

Last edited by Dennis LaGrua

"That's not true ...but it's a whole other history lesson"

Please educate us.  Outside of the original transcontinental railroad's land grants, government has done little if anything to help the railroads.  U.S. railroads have always been private enterprises until Amtrak took over passenger service.  Government involvement has been focused on REGULATING everything about the rails and over regulation destroys business.

IRON HORSE posted:

"That's not true ...but it's a whole other history lesson"

Please educate us.  Outside of the original transcontinental railroad's land grants, government has done little if anything to help the railroads. 

The statement above isn't entirely accurate.  In the early years, many railroads received free land and payments from cities, states and the Federal government because every city and state needed a railroad for its economy to grow and thrive.  The only competing transportation systems were canals and horse drawn wagons.  Neither of these were real competition to the early railroads.  

The land grants that the western railroads received were and are especially lucrative then and now.  Much of the land had vast timber, oil, coal, mineral and other riches.  Some railroads became primarily land management companies instead of transportation companies.  Railroad owners, investors and many politicians got very rich.  The Southern Pacific Railroad was called the Octopus because it completely controlled the CA government.  The PRR received low or no interest loans during the depression to install its initial electrification.

Early railroads were so profitable that they were vastly overbuilt.  Wall Street threw money at railroads just as it is throwing money at high tech firms today.  Government condemned vast sections of cities to enable railroads to build stations such as Penn Station in NYC.

Unfortunately, private business often puts profit before safety, people and the common good.  This is the reason for regulation.  Railroads had to be forced to install air brakes, steel passenger cars, knuckle couplers, signals and now positive train control.  Regulators are now forcing Facebook and Equifax to protect privacy.  I remember the days when auto makers had to be made to install outside review mirrors, seatbelts and airbags.  Regulation can be overdone but most of them come about because private industry fails to protect their workers, their customers, the environment, and the public.  Look at the Boeing 737 Max.  This was a failure of both Boeing and the FAA that resulted in the deaths of 350 plus people.   

NH Joe

 

Last edited by New Haven Joe

"every city and state needed a railroad for its economy to grow and thrive"  -- NH Joe

Again, outside the mid to late 1800's, what has government done to help the railroads in the modern era?  The initial land grants did exactly what Lincoln desired:  build America from sea to shining sea.  That the railroad men became rich was the result of their businesses spreading railroads across the continent.  It was good for America and a great opportunity for those who took risks to capitalize on it.  Blasting though mountains and building bridges across dangerous territory was not a simple task --and there was no guarantee it would work.  Since then, regulating railroads has been the primary focus of government since.  George Pullman was getting too rich so the government broke up his company.  After years of over regulation and the government subsidizing his competition -- airlines and highways -- his company died.  A low cost loan during the depression is hardly a subsidy or a bailout.  Government was doing everything it could to put people to work and buying a lot of jobs during that era.  We are still paying the price for some of those programs.

Railroad freight in America is thriving.  It was all done through private enterprise.  It is both efficient and effective.  And anyone who thinks that there are business people getting rich at Union Pacific or BNSF -- and somehow thinks this is wrong -- ought to buy stock in those companies and they, too can share the riches.

I agree that sensible regulation  to protect consumers is one of the few things outside of our military, police and firefighting that the government exists to do good.  Unfortunately, over regulation is the result of government expanding to keep its power.  I, for one, did not like the government telling me I would be a criminal if I didn't fasten my seat belt and that I would be fined for not doing so.   Am I used to it now?  Yes, but letting government chip away at our freedoms and telling us what to do is disturbing.

 

 

 

 

OK, I have done downtown Houston to downtown Austin and San Antonio, and beat the time flying between those downtowns.  On megabus!

I really think you do not need HSR between most points.  Mayber Higher Speed Rail in a sealed corridor most of the way.  Getting up to and staying at 125mph is much easier the 200+.  Turns can be sharper.  Plus one needs a lot more power/energy to get 200+.  I do not think HSR is as green as it supporters say it is.

Remember when they said plastic bags were good for the environment because it prevented the cutting down of trees. 

Last edited by Dominic Mazoch
Dominic Mazoch posted:

OK, I have done downtown Houston to downtown Austin and San Antonio, and beat the time flying between those downtowns.  On megabus!

I really think you do not need HSR between most points.  Mayber Higher Speed Rail in a sealed corridor most of the way.  Getting up to and staying at 125mph is much easier the 200+.  Turns can be sharper.  Plus one needs a lot more power/energy to get 200+.  I do not think HSR is as green as it supporters say it is.

Remember when they said plastic bags were good for the environment because it prevented the cutting down of trees. 

I'm not sure that is entirely true. You consume the most energy accelerating, whether it is in your car or on a train. Once up to speed it doesn't take as much to maintain it, unless you are going up hill. In an electric system with an overhead wire, when you decelerate, your traction motors can be used as generators and put power back into the system to be used by other units. On a diesel, this energy is simply turned into heat and lost to the air.

trainroomgary posted:

Amtrak Services in the Great State of Michigan

Amtrak in Michigan

We also like taking the Amtrak to New York City & Washington DC via the Amtrak Bus to Toledo, Ohio. Amtrak has several overnight vehicle storage lots for their riders.

On football weekends Amtrak has the football trains going in and out Ann Arbor, Michigan.  To the “Big House” at the University of Michigan.

Gary 🚂

That map is a perfect example of the regional rail service which I was talking about earlier in this topic. I see all roads still lead to Chicago.

Up to 125, diesel electric can be used.  Above that, pure electric.  From what I have learned about electric current, thete are going to be line losses due to resistance and other issues.....

And the pure electric puts out no polution.  Err, maybe.  Where are all the electrons coming from?  If not renewable or atomic, the power plant is the tail pipe.  Then add line losses...

Now is diesel better?  Maybe not.

Bugs Bunny has an answer.  He was on a train, but at the end of the short, he kicked himself off the train.  The cartoon was mafe during WWII.  People requested not to travel unless is was needed.

People need to get to work.  Go to the storr and get milk.  Even go to a place of worship.  But how much travel is really not needed.   And this concept is not mine.  My parents lived during the Great Depression and WWII, and taught me this frugal tip.

It should be pointed out that the land grants had the net effect of making the land still owned by the US gov't vastly more valuable.  As a rule, the RRs were given alternate sections, with the remaining land still held by the nation.  Much of the land was worthless until development, and development was impossible until the RRs provided access and transportation, not just of the people who then bought the land but also of the goods they needed to build it up and of the goods they then produced.

The RRs are the seminal reason this country is not still dwelling in the 18th century.  The popular viewpoint that corporations are inherently bad and some mythical, disinterested social grouping is inherently good ignores the objective conditions of history.  There is a real irony in the current ideological perspective on the way our country grew.

The net gain to our country of the grants far outweighed the "cost" of giving up the land to productive citizens.  And that bargain was the intent to begin with.  it is monumentally short-sighted and fundamentally mistaken to talk about corporate greed and cost to the people (both of which did exist) without understanding and acknowledging the accompanying benefits, which were far larger.

Last edited by palallin

To the earlier comment that beyond land grants, government has done little to nothing to help railroads; this was more or less true up until about 15 - 20 years ago but; not since.

Pennsylvania contributed a lot of money to Conrail’s clearance project that enabled the railroad to handle doublestacks between Pittsburgh and Harrisburg back in the mid-90’s.

More recently; Virginia and the Federal government contributed to NS’ Heartland Corridor clearance project that raised clearances on the former N&W for the same reason.

The state of Georgia has contributed to CSX’s intermodal terminal near Chatsworth, GA.

And each year the Federal government awards TIGER grants - principally to short line and regional railroads that enable them to upgrade their properties.

There are more examples such as the CREATE project in the Chicago area but; I believe you get the point.

Curt

aussteve posted:

There was a reason that the " for profit" train companies stopped passenger service.  Call it culture, obsolescence, competiton for transportation $, or common sense.  They wanted to stay in business.

Unlike the post office, FCC, FDA, FBI, Armed Forces, etc., it is a subsidy that is not desired or needed by anywhere near the majority of Americans (except OGR).

If it was, it could survive on it's profits.  We dont build toll roads to nowhere in Western Texas cause it's not profitable.

I don't want to subsidize a phone land line for AT&T in every house just because it used to be that way.  I also have no desire to live in Europe,  China,  Canada or South America. 

As terrible as things are in the USA, everybody wants to come here and no one seems to be leaving .  Even the Hollywood blow hards that promised to move after the last election are still here. 

America must be doing something right with the resources, culture and the location it has.  In spite of the media's opinion, we just don't have enough money to buy everything for everybody.

One point I think we are missing is the postal contracts the railroads had all dried up in the 1960’s. Carrying mail was what subsidized passenger service for a long time. 

I have been to China and the first thing people buy as they climb the economic ladder is a car. No one in China wants to use mass transit, it is their only option.

Interesting drift here.

I can fly free on American Airlines for the rest of my life.  I am going Amtrak, auto, or light aircraft whenever possible.  I hate airline travel - I love flying airliners.

California's version of high speed rail does not appeal to me - I wish they had considered double-tracking the coast route and getting the average speed of the Coast Starlight doubled to around 80 mph.  Easy, and not nearly as expensive as that train from Merced to Chowchilla.

I do think that speed costs more in energy.  If you can cut friction to zero, maybe faster is just as economical.  But I have heard that rail is the most economical, right behind that barge going southbound on the Mississippi.

IRON HORSE posted:

"every city and state needed a railroad for its economy to grow and thrive"  -- NH Joe

Again, outside the mid to late 1800's, what has government done to help the railroads in the modern era?  The initial land grants did exactly what Lincoln desired:  build America from sea to shining sea.  That the railroad men became rich was the result of their businesses spreading railroads across the continent.  It was good for America and a great opportunity for those who took risks to capitalize on it.  Blasting though mountains and building bridges across dangerous territory was not a simple task --and there was no guarantee it would work.  Since then, regulating railroads has been the primary focus of government since.  George Pullman was getting too rich so the government broke up his company.  After years of over regulation and the government subsidizing his competition -- airlines and highways -- his company died.  A low cost loan during the depression is hardly a subsidy or a bailout.  Government was doing everything it could to put people to work and buying a lot of jobs during that era.  We are still paying the price for some of those programs.

Railroad freight in America is thriving.  It was all done through private enterprise.  It is both efficient and effective.  And anyone who thinks that there are business people getting rich at Union Pacific or BNSF -- and somehow thinks this is wrong -- ought to buy stock in those companies and they, too can share the riches.

I agree that sensible regulation  to protect consumers is one of the few things outside of our military, police and firefighting that the government exists to do good.  Unfortunately, over regulation is the result of government expanding to keep its power.  I, for one, did not like the government telling me I would be a criminal if I didn't fasten my seat belt and that I would be fined for not doing so.   Am I used to it now?  Yes, but letting government chip away at our freedoms and telling us what to do is disturbing.

 

 

 

 

Railroad regulation is a kind of interesting topic, one of the problems of claims of 'excess regulation' is that a lot of the excess regulations people cry about came about because of the actions of the railroads back in the good old days of 19th century capitalism. The ICC came about in large part because the railroads were engaging in all kinds of predatory practices, the ICC set rates to stop the railroads from giving cushy rates to Standard Oil, for example, while charging overtly high rates to farmers and cattlemen to make their profit. Basic safety improvements like the air brake and knuckle coupler and requiring advanced signalling systems came from the government, and it took a government rule to stop passenger trains from dumping sewage on the tracks, as some examples. The ICC regulations did end up hurting the trains when the government refused to get rid of the price floors railroads could charge (and it was deliberate, it is a classic case of using regulations to favor one industry over another, trucking industry happens to have key support in politically powerful places). One of the reasons we have so much regulation is that businesses time and again often want to cut corners or worse, create monopolies, and rather than running to make a reasonable profit get greedy, the irony being in the end as with the railroads, it ended up hurting them through their own stupidity. 

 

Guitarmike posted:
aussteve posted:

There was a reason that the " for profit" train companies stopped passenger service.  Call it culture, obsolescence, competiton for transportation $, or common sense.  They wanted to stay in business.

Unlike the post office, FCC, FDA, FBI, Armed Forces, etc., it is a subsidy that is not desired or needed by anywhere near the majority of Americans (except OGR).

If it was, it could survive on it's profits.  We dont build toll roads to nowhere in Western Texas cause it's not profitable.

I don't want to subsidize a phone land line for AT&T in every house just because it used to be that way.  I also have no desire to live in Europe,  China,  Canada or South America. 

As terrible as things are in the USA, everybody wants to come here and no one seems to be leaving .  Even the Hollywood blow hards that promised to move after the last election are still here. 

America must be doing something right with the resources, culture and the location it has.  In spite of the media's opinion, we just don't have enough money to buy everything for everybody.

One point I think we are missing is the postal contracts the railroads had all dried up in the 1960’s. Carrying mail was what subsidized passenger service for a long time. 

I have been to China and the first thing people buy as they climb the economic ladder is a car. No one in China wants to use mass transit, it is their only option.

That isn't entirely true, while having  a car, as was true in the US, is seen as a 'step up the ladder', that doesn't mean that people don't like trains and mass transit either. Obviously, the Chinese government can do what they want, but people in China already see what the car is doing in some places, they are seeing the same problems with congestion and sprawl that have happened a lot here in the US. It is a bit different to have a car for pleasure travel or for example to be able to go shopping or whatnot, it is another where the car is the primary vehicle to getting to work or for example, to drive home for the New Year. If China achieves penetration with cars like the US, just imagine, they have a population 4 times ours, it would be a nightmare if everyone drove. 

 

just ask anyone who lives in places like Atlanta or Phoenix about the 'freedom' of the car, or where I live where people spend an hour in the car to drive 15 miles.

 

Getting back to the original topic, the answer again is that rail service makes sense if it serves a purpose, I am not talking nostalgia. It doesn't make sense to have mass transit in western Texas, where towns are a long ways apart and population is small, but it would make sense in Dallas and Houston, or Phoenix. It may not make sense to have long distance train travel, for example a Chicago to LA train that doesn't stop anywhere, but if a Chicago to LA train where people use the intermediate stops heavily, might make sense. Does that mean it should be private operation and if it can't make a profit, forget it? I keep hearing that, but it leaves out the fundamental nature of government services, that they are done, not on a for profit basis, but to allow others to make a profit. The roads the federal government pays for don't make a profit, and if we had private operators running the roads as a fully privatized business, the cost of using them would be so high that they would stifle economic activity (even true of toll roads, the toll roads in Texas are interstate highways, while toll money is used to maintain the roads, federal regulation allows federal money to pay for the initial building, and also allows federal money to expand interstate toll roads, toll revenue is used to maintain the roads, this is true  of the NJ Turnpike and other toll roads that are interstate highways. The government runs airports, runs the flight traffic control system and what airlines pay for those services is a fraction of what they actually cost; we subsidize those, because if the airlines had to pay the full cost of running airports, had to pay for the FAA control system,etc, airline travel would be a lot more expensive and it would crimp businesses relying on airline travel. 

 

 

bob2 posted:

Interesting drift here.

I can fly free on American Airlines for the rest of my life.  I am going Amtrak, auto, or light aircraft whenever possible.  I hate airline travel - I love flying airliners.

California's version of high speed rail does not appeal to me - I wish they had considered double-tracking the coast route and getting the average speed of the Coast Starlight doubled to around 80 mph.  Easy, and not nearly as expensive as that train from Merced to Chowchilla.

I do think that speed costs more in energy.  If you can cut friction to zero, maybe faster is just as economical.  But I have heard that rail is the most economical, right behind that barge going southbound on the Mississippi.

As someone pointed out, the extra energy required to maintain a fast train (at 200 mph let's say instead of 80) is not as much as you think, much of the energy required is to overcome the friction from wind resistance and to a certain amount friction losses from the rails, that increase with speed. Acceleration requires a lot more energy usage, there is no doubt, and yes, it takes more energy to get to 200 mph from 0 then 100, but with a high speed train, based on what I have read about places like Europe and China, most of the time is spent cruising. 

And yep, electric powered trains require electricity to be produced, and of course that can drive pollution "downstream". However, you also have to compare apples to apples when looking that this, that is the trick. First one, obviously, is that electric power generation can be done from a variety of sources, wind power, solar, hydro, geothermal (not used much in the US), nuclear (if they ever figure out how to convince people they can be run safely, not easy), and of course oil, coal and natural gas. In California, they are close to a 50% generation from renewable resources, for example, and the rest is mostly natural gas. If you compare the emissions in California to drive that electric train, versus diesel locomotives, it is no contest, that electrified train traced back upstream generates a small portion of the pollution the diesel engines will. Total efficiency is much better as well on a fuel basis for electric trains, the losses from long distance transmission and loses in generating power or converting electric to mechanical (electric motors on the trains) are a lot less than burning diesel to generate electric power to drive a train from what I know, and on top of that, electric powered trains are a lot quieter, too. 

Clarence Siman posted:

If the Government is going to subsidize Amtrak, then consider the feasibility of using abandoned or embargoed rail lines in the rural areas. Have a totally dedicated Amtrak line, or perhaps start a Trails to Rails campaign. Yes I know that the lines will have to be totally rebuilt, but at least Amtrak won't have to share the lines with freight.

The real key is dedicated (or passenger-prioritized) trackage like the Northeast Corridor. Some routes were abandoned in favor of more efficient routes between locations. The less efficient routes, if they could support the speed, could be resurrected for passenger-only service. Adding another track (or two) to an established mainline would eliminate some traffic conflicts, even keeping freight a priority. But it takes money, which is the real problem. The fare box doesn't cover the costs, which is the same problem with mass transit in general.

The local commuter trains here are full, and while I doubt the fares cover the costs, I don't think they're having the losses that long-distance routes experience.

I ride a commuter train four days a week (Metrolink) which shares a multi-track route with BNSF Railway. On my trip from Irvine, CA to Los Angeles, we literally zig zag around freight trains and Metrolink keeps a good schedule. Sharing the route with the Orange County line is Amtrak's Surfliner, which also keeps a pretty good schedule between San Diego and Los Angeles. The entire run from San Diego to Los Angeles is on BNSF trackage. Most BNSF freight traffic out of Los Angeles runs toward Riverside/San Bernardino railroad east of Fullerton, but still on multi-track mains. Amtrak's Southwest Chief and Metrolink's 91/Perris line share this route and stays pretty close to schedule.

Now there's the other areas. North of Los Angeles (railroad west) is UP territory (old SP) and is single track along the coast. There the Surfliner slows down as freight (pays the bills) has priority. The Coast Starlight also runs this route and runs late. Another line is the Riverside line on the old UP trackage through Pomona South -- was notoriously late. The San Bernardino line (old SP/old ATSF Pasadena Sub) is on mostly single track (the freight traffic is minimal on that line and runs off-hours) and has high ridership and is pretty much on schedule.

 

When you are out on a summer drive and see road construction, know this:  Your taxes are at work.  When you see a railroad crew fixing the rails, who pays them?

Who pays for the TSA?

"Bought the last roomette on each train.  Whatever Amtrak challenges are, lack of ridership isn't one of them."

That has been my experience, too.  Amtrak seems to have pretty good ridership both locally and for long distance.

IRON HORSE posted:

When you are out on a summer drive and see road construction, know this:  Your taxes are at work.  When you see a railroad crew fixing the rails, who pays them?

Who pays for the TSA?

"Bought the last roomette on each train.  Whatever Amtrak challenges are, lack of ridership isn't one of them."

That has been my experience, too.  Amtrak seems to have pretty good ridership both locally and for long distance.

TSA is paid for by taxes of varying sorts, among other things the post 9/11 security feed that is on all tickets, some of it also comes from Homeland security funds, some of it through fees the airlines pay..but TSA workers are federal employees, not of the airport or airlines. 

As far as that rail crew goes working on the rail, while the company pays their salary (or they pay a contractor who pays the salary), the government helps defray that cost since the employees salary is a deductible expense on taxes, plus if they are putting in some kind of capital improvement versus plain maintenance, they can deduct labor cost towards capital improvement, too. 

IRON HORSE posted:

When you are out on a summer drive and see road construction, know this:  Your taxes are at work.  When you see a railroad crew fixing the rails, who pays them?

Who pays for the TSA?

"Bought the last roomette on each train.  Whatever Amtrak challenges are, lack of ridership isn't one of them."

That has been my experience, too.  Amtrak seems to have pretty good ridership both locally and for long distance.

TSA is paid for by taxes of varying sorts, among other things the post 9/11 security feed that is on all tickets, some of it also comes from Homeland security funds, some of it through fees the airlines pay..but TSA workers are federal employees, not of the airport or airlines. 

As far as that rail crew goes working on the rail, while the company pays their salary (or they pay a contractor who pays the salary), the government helps defray that cost since the employees salary is a deductible expense on taxes, plus if they are putting in some kind of capital improvement versus plain maintenance, they can deduct labor cost towards capital improvement, too. 

In the end it comes down to defining what Amtrak's value is, what the nature of that value is, and then working from there. The idea that Amtrak has value only if a private business could run it at a profit, for example, is problematic, and the airlines give a pretty good example of that. Before they deregulated the airlines in the 1970's, when airfares were price controlled, one of the deals with the devil with that was that in return for flying unprofitable routes to small airports, rural areas, etc, the government in effect guaranteed them a profit and also de facto stopped competition, since you couldn't really compete on price, by fair trading fares. In many ways it was great for the airlines, low population areas still retained access to airline travel (which generally operated at a loss, since if they charged the true cost of serving low volume areas few people could afford it), they made nice profit without having to worry about someone undercutting them, the only people who really lost on the deal were consumers, airfares were very expensive back then. When deregulation happened, to keep airlines flying to low volume areas airlines were granted access to lucrative markets in return for continuing to run those routes, from what I have been told dropping low volume routes is a big deal for an airline.

Deregulation/ 'letting the markets decide' had negative impact as well, in that flying these days is not a pleasant experience, airplanes are designed to crowd as many people as possible into each plane, leg room has disappeared, they routinely overbook flights, the efficient hub and spoke system is prone to delays, and of course they nickel and dime people flying for every last cent, charging things like the emergency row as 'premium', baggage charges, you name it...few people outside those who routinely fly first class are enamored of flying. 

Could a private operator make money with Amtrak? Possibly, but there is a parallel to that, the problems with it. Conrail comes to mind, when the railroads that Conrail took over went splat, other train companies weren't exactly battering down the door to take these lines over and not surprisingly, it would have taken a lot of capital to put Conrail in shape after the mess the prior railroads left, and they weren't necessarily in great shape themselves. The government through Conrail spent a lot of money upgrading the railroad, they utilized and developed brand new technology to make shipping more efficient, they replaced track and signal systems, spent a lot of money on it, and by the time it was sold off Conrail was pretty attractive, to the point that two railroads spent a pretty penny buying the sections they wanted. The problem here is that a private operator likely wouldn't want to take on Amtrak for the same reason freight railroads didn't want what became Conrail, and unlike Conrail the government hasn't exactly spent money on Amtrak, not to the level I am talking about, to make it where a private operator would want it.


And like the airline industry, what would be the incentive for Amtrak to keep non profitable routes if a private owner took it over? Let's just assume the NE corridor and some other lines would be profitable (again, hypothetically), why would they keep small town, USA with service? What would be the incentive? And what would the cost of dropping that service be to the areas this happened? 

I don't have any ultimate answers, but unless someone can balance out the inherent conflicts with making a profit versus the cost of dropping service, the only option is going to be it stays run by the government purely, or the government subsidizes a private operator to run the network, either through direct price subsidy or through inducements of some sort like they did with the airlines (which also goes to show you people claiming the airlines are 'free market' don't understand how they operate). Again, the fact that Amtrak has survived all the assaults on it, the death by a million pricks, rants by politicians, and even worse, the benign neglect even supposedly pro rail politicians have accorded it often, says a lot about the value of it, perceived or real. 

 

 

You guys are trying to come with ideas to save long distance rail lines. If it was profitable somebody would be doing it. Amtrak has never been profitable never will be profitable. 

Not one person I know has ever rode a train except maybe for a vacation including myself and I am 72. 

Nobody wants to talk about it but let Amtrak die, it's on life support now, why let it drain more money. When companies can't make any money, guess what they go out of business---time for Amtrak to die. 

Dave

A recent issue of Trains Magazine has and interesting article on the Virgin/Brightline train in Florida.  Brightline was recently purchased by Richard Branson's Virgin Group and has been re-branded Virgin trains.  Virgin is operating relatively higher speed trains (around 100 mph) in Florida on its own tracks and Florida East Coast's freight tracks.  As best as I can recall, the trains run between Palm Beach and Miami.  The group intends to expand to the service to Orlando.  This will be an interesting experiment because:

1.  It is operated and funded by a private company.  Can it make a profit?

2.  It is higher speed instead of high speed.  Maybe you don't need to go 200 mph to be competitive.  The trains are powered using Siemens new ultra low emission diesels.  The engines were built at the Siemens plant in Sacramento, CA.    

3.  Virgin operates partially on freight company tracks.

4.  Will people prefer the train on the Miami / Orlando corridor?  I understand that the primary competition is I-95.  The few times I have been on I-95 in Florida it has been parking lot.   

5.  There is a lot of community resistance to the service.  Several people have already been killed by Virgin trains.  Some of these were suicide by train.  

Someone in Florida can provide more information.  It would be interesting to know the experience of any forum member who has ridden this train.  

NH Joe

 

An interesting take surfaced on railroad.net  (<-- direct link to comment in question) that brought up a point I hadn't considered regarding the creation of Amtrak--the regulatory burdens that made it necessary for a federal takeover of passenger rail in the first place (not to mention most of the Northeast freight rail infrastructure).

In short, if you were a freight railroad, you had to run the passenger trains the government said to run. You could not discontinue services that were bleeding cash without permission (which was seldom granted) . You could only charge the fares the government allowed you to charge (which didn't cover expenses), and the state set the property taxes upon the land your tracks and facilities occupied  at whatever the state felt like charging.

Sounds like to me, if the Staggers Act (along with regulatory relief pertaining to passenger services)  had happened in the (early) 1960's, freight railroads might have remained healthy enough to shoulder the losses inherent in passenger rail, at least until the beancounters found their new religion in the "Church of the Holy Operating Ratio". I base this on Conrail, which was something of a raging  dumpster fire until freight rail deregulation.

Now whether we'd have a passenger rail network any more extensive than Amtrak's current one is anyone's guess. The NEC at least would probably still need to be a federal operation, owing to the expense of maintaining electrification (like it is anywhere else in the world).

---PCJ (who uses the service at least three times a year)

Last edited by RailRide

I live in Brevard Co., Florida, near Cocoa.  Not to be confused with Cocoa Beach which is across the intercoastal.  It is at this juncture that Virgin Railways, formerly Brightline, turns westward toward the Orlando airport.  This part of the railway is currently under construction, approximately 35 to 38 miles.  Disneyworld is only 5-8 more miles away to the west.  One may wonder why an extension isn't being built, but Disney runs its own show.   Currently the FEC is single track, utilizing passing sidings,  the second track being removed in the 1980's.  Plans are to replace the second track.  Virgin, owned by Richard Branson, the English entrepreneur, owns a piece (40% I believe of the venture.)  The project is controlled by Fortress LLc, a New York private equity group controlled by Softbank. (Masayoshi Son).  They have deep pockets.  Fortress sold FEC a few years ago to Grupa Mexico.

There is considerable opposition to the venture.  Safety and traffic disruptions lead the complaints.  There must be 500 to 600 grade crossings (my estimate) between Miami and Cocoa.  Every day there are a number of near misses with the container trains traveling 45-50 mph.  Local cities have tried unsuccessfully to slow them down.  The extension will follow Route 528, now called the "Beach Line", formerly called the "B-Line", a toll road, part of the Florida Turnpike system, so grade crossings should be minimal and in sparsely populated areas.

The project is supposedly privately financed, but that is open to debate.  Our train group has had lively discussions on its viability.  The number of cruise ship visitors, both to Miami and Port Canaveral is staggering.  These potential customer make up a large part of their ridership projections.

Being a train buff, I have my doubts about its profitability.  Since I follow this thread on the forum, I will try to answer any questions you may have. 

Ok so I don't live there [but frequent the place] so I'm pretty optimistic about brightline/virgin because Branson being a Brit, I think he's knows something about decent passenger rail service... But perhaps I'm being overly optimistic.   Also if they take it north to jacksonville, then to me they'd really tie it all together -- who needs 95?   

Somewhat related -- Bachmann announced the Siemens Charger for HO, albeit in amtrak livery ... assuming they get the orders I guess.

RailRide posted:

An interesting take surfaced on railroad.net  (<-- direct link to comment in question) that brought up a point I hadn't considered regarding the creation of Amtrak--the regulatory burdens that made it necessary for a federal takeover of passenger rail in the first place (not to mention most of the Northeast freight rail infrastructure).

In short, if you were a freight railroad, you had to run the passenger trains the government said to run. You could not discontinue services that were bleeding cash without permission (which was seldom granted) . You could only charge the fares the government allowed you to charge (which didn't cover expenses), and the state set the property taxes upon the land your tracks and facilities occupied  at whatever the state felt like charging.

Sounds like to me, if the Staggers Act (along with regulatory relief pertaining to passenger services)  had happened in the (early) 1960's, freight railroads might have remained healthy enough to shoulder the losses inherent in passenger rail, at least until the beancounters found their new religion in the "Church of the Holy Operating Ratio". I base this on Conrail, which was something of a raging  dumpster fire until freight rail deregulation.

Now whether we'd have a passenger rail network any more extensive than Amtrak's current one is anyone's guess. The NEC at least would probably still need to be a federal operation, owing to the expense of maintaining electrification (like it is anywhere else in the world).

---PCJ (who uses the service at least three times a year)

Given what I have read about the railroads and their history, I doubt that given the post war world that the railroads would have kept passenger service. The decline of the railroads was a combination of federal regulation, especially ICC setting freight rates and losing ground to long haul trucking thanks to the interstate highway system, and then too it was bad management as well. I suspect had they been allowed to drop passenger service they would have done it a ways before they actually did. Even if they could charge what they wanted, by the early 1960's the penetration of cars combined with the interstate highway system, the explosion of air travel, likely they would have found had they been able to raise fares, it would only drive more people to drive or fly. Not to mention that to the freight railroads, passenger service "got in the way' of freight......

Obviously we don't know what would have happened had the government done for railroads what they did for other industries like the airline industry and the trucking industry (for example, the very real fact that trucks cause a lot more damage to roads than their diesel fuel tax and road use taxes pay for, while cars pay a lot more than they cause in damage),or the various subsidies the airlines get, for example, what if the government helped subsidize rail travel, by perhaps running the stations, helping pay for infrastructure improvements like better track, or even (to use a modern context) be responsible for PTC and signalling system costs on the railroad (analogous to the FAA air traffic control system roughly)...it is interesting to think about,but not solving anything. 

In one sense, I think a proposal to shut down Amtrak entirely would not be a bad thing, and here is why. Every time things are proposed by Amtrak (like for example, using buses on some parts of the long distance routes), suddenly politicians come out of the woodwork demanding that this not happen, or when Amtrak proposes cutting back or eliminating service to areas, politicians object to it, people rally to try and stop it, etc......perhaps if we had that conversation on a system wide scale, the politicians who come out of the woodwork when it affects their district but spends the rest of the time yelling about how much Amtrak costs, that the government shouldn't be in the rail business, etc, might actually realize their contradictory behavior, those who support rail service but normally aren't active in pushing for better rail service, more spending on capital projects, etc, might wake up and act.  What is the old expression, you often don't value something until you are about to lose it? 

 

 

I'm aghast that folks want to just "shut down" amtrak because of some limited reporting on topic exposing some negative aspects mainly due to policy decision and nothing more.  Every day where I live people ride the train to work and I get the impression they like it.  The lots are full up and I would expect more would take it if a) it ran more frequently, and b) the lots were even bigger.   what's the big deal any way -- we build roads with taxes, why not rails?    I suppose we could go to a purely private road network too.

New Haven Joe posted:

 It would be interesting to know the experience of any forum member who has ridden this train.  

NH Joe

 

My wife and I rode it from Ft. Lauderdale to West Palm Beach in March of 2018. Nice train and very nice/helpful employees. The main problem seemed to be the many crossings through residential areas, which had resulted in some crossing deaths. This would probably be why our 40 minute trip took over an hour. High speed? Forget it. It now connects up with Miami. Why they plan to hook it up with Orlando is beyond me. There are already 2 Amtrak trains going north, and 2 going south, each day out of Miami. Yes, a rail link to Disney would be nice, but you don't need BrightLine to build it.

That's a great deal.  Recently 5 of us priced out short trip to see friends from here to there on amtrak.  we came up with around $400 round trip but all else looked good.  we could drive it.  And so $400 its tempting to just drive.  Still we will probably try it once.

Way back up there somewhere on this thread, someone said my tax costs were $13 or maybe it $26 a year for amtrak.  That's nothing.  I spend that at chic-fil-a on any given saturday.

So, I'd easily support a 100% increase in my amtrak tax load and if the net effect were to depress prices on our little trip and similar ones for others by say "40%" -- we'd just about not consider driving it.

 

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