Interesting Change to the Lionel Product Finder

Interesting indeed!!!

 

Thanks for sharing.

 

Andre

Hmmm...

 

Rusty

Now all we need is some scale product to search for

Oh, my.  Do I detect a little tease?

 

Rusty

The more the better for me Jon

 

Ive been meaning to ask you... Can the Legacy and Railsounds components be shrunk any further? What I really wonder is if we will ever see smaller engines than what we have today? I'm in for a Y3, a couple SD70s, and a U33 so far but what I would like to know is if we have any chance of any 1st or 2nd gen diesels? It would be a real shame if it can't be done just because the electronics won't fit. Can you give us a "peek" into the crystal ball?

 

Thanks.

It has become apparent that Lionel is in the process of establishing two product lines for their S gauge trains.   The AF based trains have been around since the first three freight cars were unveiled in 1979.

 

The new stuff is an attempt at establishing an S scale line and owes little or nothing to the previous A F designs.  I think the U-33 Cs I just bought are wonderful examples of this.  Putting Legacy in the new diesels seems to be a big step toward establishing it as a command control standard for Lionel S scale trains.  It is a more advanced system than DCC and much less "geeky" to use in my opinion.

 

The new solid "T" rail FasTrack is also a welcome addition to the Line.

 

Ed Boyle

The Electronics can be miniaturized a bit more.  The RailSounds just underwent a revision, and I think it could have been smaller if we had moved to smaller parts such as 0402 resistors and leadless (QFN) chips.  We need to get buy in from the PCB subcontractor for such a change to our designs.  The motor driver can be smaller in some cases, depends on current requirements.  The TMCC  Radio, is about as small as it gets; the 455khz filter parts are fairly large.

 

My goal is to have a smaller electronics package sometime next year, so that in 2014 we could realize smaller loco support.  We may have limit the driven wheels to only one truck in locos like the GP7/9 body style (1/2 of a China drive!, heh)

 

I have a question for the folks here on this thread... I am toying with a DCC decoder (derived from a design I created 8 years ago!) as a swap for our TMCC radio board.  If successful, a one board swap out without any wiring changes would allow DCC support with our current motor, smoke, and light controller; and also link to the RailSounds system.  Would folks be willing to purchase the "DCC adapter" to plug and play upgrade locos such as the SD-70, Y3, U33?  Figure costs at $50/board for evaluation of the concept.  No promises, just exploratory feedback - as I may run into some technical issues in the current board set that prevent this concept from working out...

 

Thanks for asking, Jon.  Hope your successful in minimizing the electronics further.

 

Speaking for myself, I wouldn't mind a "plug n' play" DCC compatibility plug factory installed future products. 

 

I'd be less interested in retrofitting already existing products.  I deal with production electronics repairs (some using the dreaded 0402 sized components) all day at work and tearing into something and wiring a plug and harness assembly is not so attractive to me anymore.

 

As I said, I'm speaking only for myself.

 

Rusty

Thanks Jon.

 

I for one am fine With a single powered truck if it means smaller engines are possible. If power is needed I'll just have to buy twice as many engines  

 

I can't speak for the whole scale crowd, but I think what you describe is a great idea. Even if there is a price tag associated with it. So it would be possible to use a DCC decoder, but retain Railsounds? That is VERY interesting. As I said before, in my opinion, flexibility is key. If you have Vision style pilots, scale wheels, DCC option, Railsounds, smaller engines, and possibly scale wheeled steam I don't see any reason why Lionel wouldn't just flat out dominate the entire S market. 

 

Personally, I want to run Legacy. I am happy to see the option of DCC being discussed for the scale crowd that is already invested in that system. I would also like to see the flip side in the form of Legacy/RS upgrade kits too.

 

Thanks again for taking our opinions into consideration! I am really getting excited about the next few years in S. Glad I got on board when I did!

Hi SantaFeFan,

 

First I’ll address the single motor drive as it applies to me.  Since there are a plethora of engines left out there to make in plastic in the 4 axle vein, single motors would be acceptable if they don’t run like slot cars.  But of course if they are offered as non powered units I’d sure like that.  Then I would repower them to my liking without all the electronics associated with Lionel.  Don’t get me wrong, I like TMCC the first time I saw it but that was 15 yrs ago.  I also was predominantly a 3 rail O scale modeler.  Also I ran plenty of trains with Lionel single motor GP’s and FA’s and when I wanted to pull more, I added additional units.  IMO the single motor GP’s offered by MPC in the late 70’s and early 80’s pulled realistic numbers of cars as the prototype.  So single power trucks not geared to go fast would actually be fine for me.  My layout isn’t intended to pull huge trains and never will be.  Smoke and sound don’t do it for me either.  I’ve worked on the WP then UP since 1979 and the sound can’t be replicated on board to what I’ve experienced my working career on the railroad.  Actually after spending 8 – 12 hours on the real thing, coming home to quiet models is what I want.  I would be interested in the DCC / TMCC board swap, for ease of conversion if nothing else. 

 

Lionel’s entrance to S scale is a good thing.  There are plenty of choices of equipment to be made that can go scale or AF compatible merely by the choice of wheels.  SHS and AM have done it. 

 

Question, will Lionel be putting TMCC in the AF Baldwin switcher? 

 

Greg Elems

 

 

 

 

 

Jon,

 

Of course, there is only a small portion S Scalers present on the OGR board who run either DC or DCC.

 

This is a question that perhaps should be asked on the YaHoo S Scale board.  I know there's a couple of belicose "nattering nabobs of negativism" about Scale Flyer over there, but the bulk of the folks there are reasonable.  I'd be willing to copy the above part of your post over there tonight and ask for their input.

 

The question is how to contact you.  Last time, I suggested using "Talk to Us" and ask the message be forwarded to Jon-CTO. 

 

Is this the best way to contact you?  I won't pass along your email address in OGR's member profile without your permission.

 

Rusty

Jon,

 

Delighted to hear the improvements you are contemplating with Lionel S Scale.  I am sure the option of using DCC would widen the appeal of the line with S scalers.

 

One of things I would very much like to do is put either Legacy or TMCC, preferably Legacy & RailSounds, in some of my earlier Lionel/AF engines.  The thought of modifying some of the PAs that head passenger trains is especially appealing. I have stopped buying GP-7/9s because there is no command control option.

 

Ed boyle

Jon,

 

Thanks for asking about this topic.  Here is my opinion: I could would be fine with either the single motor configuration you mentioned above or having command and two motors in one unit and the railsounds in a dummy B unit, similar to the way the PWC style F-units are set up in 3 rail.   In the case of a GP 7/9, I would buy more than one anyway.  If a GP 7/9 is on the drawing board, if it can be made with the same level of detail as Lionel's O scale verisons, then I wold say that it would be a home run!

 

In regards to DCC, personally, I have no interest in it whatsoever and would go out of my way to avoid using it, but can see the appeal to others who are in need of a common control system to run Lionel's new products and their existing trains.  

Rusty, I would appreciate the Posting on the Yahoo S Scale board.  You can use my forum email, or the Talk to Us address works as well as they route to me.

 

Folks, I truly appreciate the feedback I see posted.  I take it to heart, and it will reflect in our products where possible.

 

jon

The direction of the development of Lionel's AF line toward a scale friendly stance is very encouraging and exciting.  For myself, a more scale influence is a positive thing and the possibility of offering a DCC add on is very appealing.

 

Two questions come to mind:

1.  As the DCC board would be an add on to the Legacy board (as I understand your post), would the primary power source still be AC?  If so, this would be a distraction for me.

 

2.  Would it be possible to offer the DCC plug in to a Legacy less, DC powered, locomotive?  This would be the most attractive alternative to me.

 

All things considered, S scale much better off with the current direction Lionel is taking in the S market than without it.  I applaud your efforts!

 

Roger

 

Thank you Jon,

 

I'll post the information tonight.

 

Rusty

I have been getting quite a few questions about changing TMCC to DCC especially in the U33's but other engines as well. I think this would work great for the people who want to change to or add DCC from a TMCC engine and still be able to use the Railsounds.

I cross-posted your comments to the facebook S Scale group as well Jon.

 

Thanks again for involving the communtiy.

 

Jonathan

I operate my 'S' equipment using DCC, or straight DC when the grandkids are over.

 

I changed out the motors on my old Flyer steam engines to the Timko DC can motors, then put the a 'G' decoder and a couple of relays in the tender. The function outputs of the decoder trigger the relays to turn the smoke and headlight on or off.

 

My S-Helper switchers got the scale wheels, Kadee couplers, and decoders installed almost as soon as they came out of the box.

 

Since it already had can motors, my "Flionel" NYC set PA got the e-unit yanked and a decoder installed before it hit the rails.

 

So, from my perspective, anything that makes it easier to switch 'S' equipment to DCC is a "good thing."

Agreed. A DCC-friendly option would be great for the hobby and for sales.

 

Moreover, being able to update older conventional Lionel-AF engines would be very desirable, particularly if the new 6-wheel drive trucks could be included. One route would be to extend the production run of the "guts" of the upcoming Texas Special PA's and sell the extra complete chassis (less the shell) as a separate sale item. Separate sale chassis could be used to retrofit original Gilbert PA's intended as operators, as well.

 

Bob Bubeck

Ed, You can add TMCC with Railsounds to the earlier Lionel/AF engines as i have been doing for the last 6 - 7 years including the GP-7/9's. Take a look at www.electricrr.com to see the different products that are available with the different sounds for both diesel and steam. To see some of the conversions that I have done take a look at www.goldinhands.com. Another good web site for S gauge is www.tuveson.com

1) The power would be DC or DCC, *not* AC.

 

2) yes we could consider a DCC socket.   I am not sure the best path right now, a DCC plug, or DCC support from Lionel as delivered.  The DCC path from Lionel would have many advantages; working Smoke, Railsounds, IR Track emitter, Legacy Quilling horn, ect.  Downside would be a Lionel designed DCC decoder, which is a relatively unknown product.  However, I have designed DCC decoders many years ago, and followed the NMRA spec, so one would believe we would be off to a good start...

Jon:

 

Thanks for the reply answering my concerns. 

 

There are so many different DCC decoders on the market today, one more would just give more options, a reason there are already so many decoder manufacturers in the market already.  The fact that it is developed by Lionel would not pose a problem unless the consumer already has a closed mind to what you are doing simply because it is branded Lionel.  I have enjoyed the railsounds from Lionel.  One possible advantage of this decoder being developed by Lionel could be the current capacity of the decoder.  Presently, most decoders used by S scalers run at 1 amp (usually HO), a current capacity of at least 2 amps would be preferable.  Lionel is (I believe) used to working with larger current draws and so would be more likely to produce a decoder that would work better with S.

 

I continue to be intrigued.

 

Roger

 

  

  The logical way to go if you want to capture the scale market is use the NMRA standard DCC plug so folks can just buy a decoder and plug it in. No reason to re-invent the wheel. Scale guys like off the shelf tsunami and loksound decoders better than proprietary stuff.  Just make scale locos without sound and with a DCC plug and folks can run them on DC or add decoders as they wish.

   More important than bells and whistles are a good running, slow speed gear ratio,and rugged  easily repaired  drive. Scale modelers are not afraid of doing a little work to customize a loco to their specs as long as the basic product is top quality.  SHS switchers are  a good example of how to build S locos for both scale and high rail use and please both groups.

  When thinking about S scale the goal should be to expand the S market beyond the number of present S participants by building something that will appeal to the HO crowd and the older O scalers who want to downsize their houses.

  I'm looking forward to new Lionel S scale modern freight cars as I've converted O scale Lionel  freight cars to 2 rail use in the past and found them top quality. I like the quality of Lionel scale O stuff but I like the size of the S stuff much better, I can fit a lot more railroad in the same space. ....Dave Branum    

The new S-gauge models recently introduced by Lionel certainly bring excitement to this scale. The fact that Lionel is also addressing the scale market with fine detailing, scale wheels, and coupler options is wonderful; but it does not go far enough yet to capture that market. Scale models run on DC current. Many have been enhanced to operate with DCC on DC current with the option to run older DC locomotives on the same rails without DCC signalling.

 

I have American Flyer, American Models, and S-Helper locomotives that all run on DC and a few Lionel-built American Flyer locomotives rewired to do the same. I can’t run the Challengers or U33C models unless I pull out TMCC modules and sacrifice most of the features—including the best sound effects available today—that are half the cost of the models. That’s too expensive and wasteful.  

 

Any DCC option would have to include the ability to run on DC. An even better solution might be to offer DC models at a lower price point with just the directional lighting enabled. The factory could include the smoke unit and the speaker to keep things simple so that if a buyer wanted to install DCC/DC, he or she could purchase the DCC module from Electric RR or other supplier. (If the Electric RR module could include Rail Sounds, that would be fantastic.) This method would cover every potential buyer: 1) the AC user in either conventional or TMCC mode; 2) the scale or high-rail user running DC who wants to add locomotives without investing in DCC; and the 3) the scale or high-rail user running DC who has some or all locomotives with DCC. The new choices are excellent in terms of locomotives, livery, and features. But too many of us are like the kids we used to be—looking through the store window at engines we can’t get. The DC choice with the optional DCC upgrade from Electric RR would be terrific.     

One other point...wouldn't it be simpler to just include a set of scale wheels in the box, similar to what SHS does, than have to make two seperate packages for scale and tin-plate wheels?

 

 

Jon,

 

I also cross-posted your initial comments into the new Lionel-Flyer group on Yahoo, located at:

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Lionel-Flyer/

 

I invite you and anyone else interested in Lionel's American Flyer line to come join as well.  Anyone can join and the group is un-moderated, so your posts go up onto the message board instantly.  It's a new and small group, but there is keen interest in what Lionel is doing with American Flyer.

 

Regards,

Tim (Lionel-Flyer list owner)

I'd like to see smaller electronics, not for S-scale, but rather to allow full Legacy functions with sound in small stuff like #41 switchers or the Dockside switcher.

I think this thread has deviated some what from its original direction but whatever. First, as someone who's intrest is in the original American Flyer I wish you would stop refering to S scale as Flyer. S scale is S scale, Flyer is not scale whether made by Gilbert or Lionel or whoever. Second, those of you that want scale equipment that runs on DC or DCC that is fine but I am concerned that you are going to destroy the Flyer market in your enthusiasm. It is already hard to get new switches that will work satisfactorily with the Flyer wheel flanges.

 

Al

I think this thread has deviated some what from its original direction but whatever. First, as someone who's intrest is in the original American Flyer I wish you would stop refering to S scale as Flyer. S scale is S scale, Flyer is not scale whether made by Gilbert or Lionel or whoever. Second, those of you that want scale equipment that runs on DC or DCC that is fine but I am concerned that you are going to destroy the Flyer market in your enthusiasm. It is already hard to get new switches that will work satisfactorily with the Flyer wheel flanges.

Thank you Al, it's what I've been trying to convey in another post and I'm pretty disgusted with converted O gaugers extolling the virtues of Lionel products not yet produced. What is scale anyway? I see real "scale" everyday in Albany, NY and it looks nothing like the pristine painted models produced by any manufacturer. The equipment is dirty, rusty and nothing like you can buy as a model. Give me a decent Hi-rail AF product that operates properly and I am happy as a clam. AND, it runs on real 2 rail track. That's all I need.

You know what... My mother taught me to keep my mouth shut if I didn't have anything nice to say.

 

I will say that I am not going to apoligize for what I like, what I want to buy, or what I want to talk about on a public internet forum. If you aren't interested in the topic, then why comment? It is easier to just ignore it. I don't want traditional Flyer personally, but I respect those that do and I even read their threads because I am always willing to learn from others. I would never think of posting disruptive posts in someone eles's thread that I really am not involved in. We have lots of Flyer guys on the facebook group and I really enjoy seeing their layouts.  Why is it that some people feel so threatened and are so intolerant?

 

I started this post, and I am the one that "derailed" it. I just apologized to myself... so we are all good.

 

Lionel has decided to make S scale products and that has generated a TON of interest from not only the S gauge community, but other gauges as well. I wasn't aware that this was a members only club. I guess I should have washed off the "stink" of O gauge first and picked up some postwar Flyer before I had the gall to post.

 

The fact of the matter is that there ARE people coming from other scales to buy these new S scale products from Lionel and they are buying a lot of product. Money will talk. S scale, or Flyonel scale or whatever you want to call it is going to boom. I am really excited about that. I can't wait for the next catalog. I have purchased two cases of Fastrack and a U33c so far. I have a pre-order in for a Y3a and SD-70s. As soon as the turnouts and cylindrical hoppers are released I will have a bunch of those too. I know I'm not the only one. If that doesn't excite you, I totally understand. You are free to start a thread of your own, but please don't come and wreck shop in mine.

 

Thanks,

Jonathan

  Scale is basically using more realistic proportions on wheels and couplers. Here's a Lionel O scale hopper, The S version will look quite similar....Dave Branum
  

 

Are you kidding me??!??  IMO, there has always been a strong intention to integrate scale dimensions into Flyer trains.  They are absolutely toy trains, but it sure seems to me that Gilbert drew on the influences of the "real world" quite a bit.  Gilbert also used scale dimensions as a competative advantage and one of the primary differentiations between His line of trains and that of Lionel's.

 

I have a question for the folks here on this thread... I am toying with a DCC decoder (derived from a design I created 8 years ago!) as a swap for our TMCC radio board.  If successful, a one board swap out without any wiring changes would allow DCC support with our current motor, smoke, and light controller; and also link to the RailSounds system.  Would folks be willing to purchase the "DCC adapter" to plug and play upgrade locos such as the SD-70, Y3, U33?  Figure costs at $50/board for evaluation of the concept.  No promises, just exploratory feedback - as I may run into some technical issues in the current board set that prevent this concept from working out...

 

 

That's a very exciting prospect!

Threads have a tendency to wander away from there original intent, it is the nature of discussion whether it be in person or the internet.  It happens here on all the boards, on Yahoo, CNN... anywhere and everywhere.

 

And I would also beg to differ about Flyer not being "scale."  I go round and round with some of the uber-scalers on Yahoo about this from time to time.  With few exceptions, Flyer is certainly "scale."  Definitely more so than "traditional" Lionel or most MTH RailKing.

 

I've always considered Flyer "scale,"  just "low resolution."  Not every rivet and bolt is there, true, but everything, save for the Frontiersman, old time passenger cars and the so called "F9's" is built to 1:64 proportion, with some allowances made for the production realities of the 1950's.

 

I've also taken a couple of flyer items, done some minor reworking and added scale trucks and Kadee's.  They look just fine tucked in with my other scale equipment. 

 

I do very little weathering, if any, on my trains.  Does that make them any less "scale?"  I'm not about to grunge up my River Raisin Pioneer Zephyr, my AM Pacific that I put a lot of work in detailing or the 290 Pacifics in my Flyer collection. 

 

Model railroading is a hobby of many dimensions, from a wind up tin set running on a circle of track on the carpet to the finest, museum quality model railroad system.

 

It's all good.

 

Rusty

Mr. jonnyspeed,

Sorry to get you all in a tither. I see that you do agree with me that the subject has deviated somewhat but as I said that happens. Further, I did not mention anything about "O" gauge. As you point out this is a "S" gauge forum and I was discussing traditional Flyer versus "S" scale equipment. Now as for Flyer being "S" scale, traditional Flyer is what I have always refered to as "S" gauge Hi-rail. That means it is "S" gauge equipment with large wheel flanges, couplers mounted on the cars, and generally made to run on small radius track. The rest of the equipment may or may not be "Scale". Now as to "S" scale equipment. Scale equipment has scale smaller wheel flanges, couplers mounted on the cars as in the prototype, scale dimensions; all of which necessitates larger radius track. If this is your desire then so be it. All I am asking is do not refer to it as Flyer. My concern is that this "scale" equipment is going to require switches with narrow guard rails, different frog clearances, and changes to crossovers. These changes will make them almost usless for traditional "Hi-rail" Flyer equipment. This may eventually lead to more expensive equipment and the removal of the scale from the reach of any new comer to the hobby.

 

Al

You know what... My mother taught me to keep my mouth shut if I didn't have anything nice to say.

 

I will say that I am not going to apoligize for what I like, what I want to buy, or what I want to talk about on a public internet forum. If you aren't interested in the topic, then why comment? It is easier to just ignore it. I don't want traditional Flyer personally, but I respect those that do and I even read their threads because I am always willing to learn from others. I would never think of posting disruptive posts in someone eles's thread that I really am not involved in. We have lots of Flyer guys on the facebook group and I really enjoy seeing their layouts.  Why is it that some people feel so threatened and are so intolerant? 

I apologize if I have offended anyone with my comments regarding Lionel's "scale" offerings. I own much Flyonel including the U33C. Jonnyspeed, your mother taught you well but you should examine your opening lines to me and see if that really fits her advice. Signing off on this discussion.

 

"I would never belong to any club that would have me as a member."

Groucho Marx

HOSO&NZ,

 

You didn't get me in a tither. My comments wern't directed at you.

 

You bring up some valid points. I think that people refer to the new scale pieces as Flyer for the simple fact that that's what the label on the box says. It seems Lionel is using the Flyer name for all S gauge products. Since they own the name I guess they can do that. What is interesting is that the wheels on my U-33c are MUCH smaller than traditional Flyer. I would say they are about equal to SHS Hi-Rail wheels. Of course I will be ordering the scale wheels for it soon. Which leads me to your second point, the track. I don't know if you were aware, but the Lionel Fastrack will let you run Flyer, Hi-Rail, and Scale wheelsets all on the same track much like the SHS S-Trax system will. I have been told that the turnouts will support all 3 as well.

 

The way I see it, this is a period of transition for S. Lionel is bringing a whole new breed of S gauge trains to market. There will be a period of time where there will be some confusion on what labels things get and so forth, but I don't see this as anything but a good thing no matter if you are interested in Gilbert Flyer, Flyonel, Scale, or Flyonel Scale <-- I just coined that phrase right there. Remember where you heard it

 

I still see Flyer products in the catalog, I see new scale offerings, and I see a track system that will support them all. It is a good time to be in S IMHO.

Your assumption would be correct, johnnyspeed.  I don't see Lionel changing the name for the new S products.

 

But then, consider that on the three rail side, everything from the basic train set to Vision Line is still called Lionel.

 

For S, I began using the terms "Scale Flyer" and "Classic Flyer" to distinguish between the new highly detailed products and products base on A. C. Gilbert designs.  It seems the best way for my tiny little mind to cope with the new developments. 

 

Eventually, Lionel may make more of a distinction between the two lines, but for now the "market," meaning us, will have to do it.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure if the A. C. Gilbert Company (A.C.G.LLC?) had survived into the 21st century, their product line would have also evolved to this stage and would still be called American Flyer.

 

Rusty

 

 

jonnyspeed,

I hope you are correct as regards the switch question. I can only remember the problems the HO people had during their transition perion and the problems the O gauge people are having now to some extent. Please forgive me if I remain skeptical.

 

Al

 There's two distinct sides to the S scene. One is the old Flyer toy trains and the other is scale trains that are 1:64 proportions .   The  size has enough advantages over HO and O scales that S could stand alone as a modeling scale without being tied to it's flyer roots. Most new S modelers are gonna come in knowing and caring nothing about flyer, they are gonna be just like HO modelers who model because they like trains and not because they played with toy trains 50 years ago.

 At some point Lionel needs to decide if it wants to go with flyer, S scale, or both. If S gets more popular we'll see scale stuff from other companies but probably not much flyer stuff so Lionel needs to decide if they want to dominate the S scale side or just leave it to others? The big key to the success of a scale is when Atlas decides to make a line of flextrack and switches for it. Atlas track would bring in all the big players like Athearn, bachman, etc. so lionel can play ahead of the break or on the edges going forward, looks like the ball is in their hands right now. It will be interesting times to see how it unfolds....DaveBranum    

Gentlemen,

It seems I am being misunderstood by many so at the risk of doing what I have been accused of doing and not wishing to, hijacking a thread, let me explain. I do not care what size the equipment is; my concern is with operability or how well the old will run on the new. The problem is every track switch has what is called a frog. This is the place where the diverging outside rails cross each other. Now there are two kinds of frogs, a closed frog and an open frog. The old Flyer switches had closed frogs. From what I can tell from the pictures the new Lionel Flyer switches have open frogs. What is the difference and the problems?

 

On an open frog there is a gap that the wheels must pass over. This is there in order for the wheel flange to pass when going in the other direction. This is a potential area for the wheel to go airy and derail, what is called picking the frog. This is controlled by two things both of which are dependent on the scale and size of the wheels. The first is the depth of the slot the wheel flange rides in since in this small area the wheel actually runs on the flange and not the tread of the wheel. The other is the position of the guard rail. The guard rail is that small piece of track opposite the frog. It is the purpose of this rail to keep the wheels form picking the frog. As I said both of these are dependent on the scale and size of the wheel flange depth.

 

On a closed frog switch there is no frog gap to cross and as such the size and scale of the wheel has little or no bearing on operation.

 

It is this problem of the frog that is my concern not the size of the equipment.

 

Thank you, Al

Rusty, you make an excellent point. For its time Flyer was the most scale and realistic model train on the market. You have to assume that if they never went out of business, they would be using all of the modern technology to continue that trend today. I don't think people take that into account sometimes. Al, I totally get your point regarding the Turnouts. That was a major sticking point for me when I started in S. SHS has a moveable frog that seems to work well. I am not sure what Lionel's design will be, but I have been told that it will support all wheel sets. And I don't blame you one bit for being skeptical. I am too, but Lionel has really been following through on their promises lately so I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Recently I have been in contact with Tom of Tom's Turnouts. He is hopeful to have rail soon to allow him to continue production of his wonderful turnouts. If I had to guess I would think that there would be a market for his numbered and curved turnouts because I doubt we will see those from Lionel. Of course that is my speculation.

  I don't think you need to worry about the future. Flyer wheels will still run on flyer compatible track and S scale wheels will run on scale track. Folks will just use whatever track works best to fulfill their goals for their layouts. If someone builds an S scale layout they are not going to care about running flyer equipment on  it and if a guy likes flyer he will just buy the new cars in the flyer compatible wheel version. If someone can't decide between scale and flyer then he might have a problem but that's not gonna be something manufacturers need to worry about as the flyer compatible stuff and the scale stuff are so different that most modelers or operators only like one kind and don't want to mix them. As long as both types of wheels are available anyone that needs to can just change them and get rolling like we already routinely do with
SHS and American Models equipment. ...DaveBranum

Maybe some of the Gilbert based stuff can be returned to a more accurate postwar style in places where the tooling had been changed recently to make a new Flyer style product.

As a relative upstart in S scale, here's some input from the peanut gallery:

 

IMHO, any interest that is based on aging Baby Boomers is being eyed by the mfg'ers catering to that interest.  Like it or not, the numbers of people that like nostalgic models from their youth are aging and dying off.  This will/does mean less market for newly mfg'd nostalgic type pieces.  The mfg'ers have maybe another 10-20 years (or less?) and the previously strong nostalgic market will definitely be a niche market, such as tinplate today.  (VERY few tinplate enthusiasts compared to the overall hobby of model railroading.)

 

Whether any of us like it or not, the long term future for model railroading is more scale fidelity and newer prototypes.  I feel this holds true for S as well.  IF a mfg'er is going to make inroads into the fertile fields mentioned above (i.e. capitalizing on its perfect size), it will do so by attracting the non-S scale serious scale modeler and not transplanting the nostalgic enthusiast.  (Such as an O 3 rail guy into AF type S.)

 

What will likely be a dependable era interest (regardless of scale) for many years to come will be the steam/diesel era.  However, it too, will shrink as those adherents age/etc.  Thus, the best future market will be newer prototype models along with extracting the remaining sales found from the transition era guys.

 

Of course, all of the above is merely my opinion... so... I could be wrong!!

 

Andre

 The only difference is that S tinplate/hirail wheels are 2 rail and  insulated so they can run on scale track as long as  they can fit thru the switch frogs and if the flanges don't hit the spike heads while O tinplate/hirail wheels are 3 rail and not insulated so they cause an immediate short if placed on a 2 rail layout. In practice it results in about the same thing, if scale modelers buy 3 rail or flyer stuff they convert it to scale by changing the wheels and couplers....DaveBranum   

I agree with what you are saying Daveb. The one glaring problem that I see is that Lionel  released the new scale Challenger and announced the scale Y3a without scale wheels. 

 

So what is one to do? I am in this quandary right now myself. I would prefer scale track and I wouldn't have a problem with the new diesels because I can get scale wheels. What if I want the new scale steam? (I do!) That means I can't use scale track. I could use Fastrack. I have 2 cases of it and while it is nice, it isn't as nice as I would like. I am lucky in a way as I haven't built my layout yet. I would be a bit frustrated if I already had a scale code 100 layout. I actually have a small code 100 switching layout, but I dont count that.

 

In my opinion, now that I have thought about it I feel that adding a scale wheel option for steam engines is much more important, priority wise, than DCC. 

 

Think about it like this... A whole segment of S is not buying the new high end steam just because they physically won't run on scale track. Those folks aren't going to replace their track with Fastrack so unless scale wheels are offered they will never buy.  Priority 1 should be scale wheels. Why? S Scalers could buy and swap the electronics. At least they would run on their track. After that adding a common socket with DCC support would be icing on the cake.  Remember, you are talking about a group that has no problems dropping $2k+ on a brass steamer. $800 for a Y3a with scale wheels that just needs an electronic swap probably isn't a big deal.

 

I just feel that if Lionel is going to really do these scale offering right, then both diesels and steamers need to be on equal footing so at the very least one can have a common rail to run everything on. I don't see a lot of sense offering scale wheels only for diesels.

 I totally agree with you. I don't model the steam era so it doesn't affect me but if they want to attract the most S scale modelers they need scale wheels for steamers. Either in the box to be swapped or factory installed as an option. I kinda like the supplying both kinds of wheels in the box the best as it eliminates the need to stock two different kinds of locos and it allows one to re-sell the loco to either a scale track guy or a hirail track guy. I'm guessing Lionel is just taking it slowly and seeing how the scale stuff sells before getting too far into it so I think scale wheels for steam will come along eventually. MTH did something similar in O scale a few years ago when they marketed 3/2 rail steamers.

 After so many years of little new S stuff  to look forward to it's great to be talking about these possibilities. ....DaveBranum  

I am not computer smart  and just played havoc with my computer as I flipped through the catalog increasing the image size and back. To my dismay I messed up my screen size for all other stuff using the lionel sizing. Now everything is too small to read. Oh the joys of programs that wash together.

 

Phill

The problem with supplying scale wheelsets with steam locomotives is in changing the drivers.  They must be quartered properly and the instillation process must be exact.  This is the reason Don Thompson from SHS decided to build both scale and highrail configuration with his Consolidation.  Consider also, you must change 6 drive wheels and both the pilot and the trailing trucks on this loco.  The tender trucks would most likely be just a swap out.

 

This is not as much of a problem in the diesels, as you do not need to consider all the valving and eccentric rods.  Therefore, selling the product with both scale and highrail wheel sets makes sense.

 

If Lionel produced these steamers with, not the AF wheel flanges, but a highrail flange such as both AM and SHS do, along with the smaller driver flanges a on the Challengers, these will work with code 100 rail.  If you are just beginning to build your scale layout and are OK with closed frog turnouts, you are in good shape.  Open frog turnouts will still need scale flange depth to go through the frog.

 

As I understand it, the design is still in progress, so scale flange, DC and DCC plugs are still a possibility.  The saga continues.

 

Roger

  As I said i'm not a steam guy so it might be harder than most would want to tackle but I was thinking along the lines of the Glacier Park O scale locos where a set of P-48 wheels can be purchased with the standard O scale  loco. If the manufacturers would rather stock 2 versions that would certainly be easier from a buyers perspective. I just would not want to them to only make high rail versions then claim S scale locos don't sell :>  I'm glad it's a problem I don't have to worry about for freight cars where wheel swaps are pretty painless....DaveBranum

This is not really true.  It is possible to have an open frog turnout that supports Flyer, Hi-rail and scale at the same time, without modification.

 

Tom Stoltz

Hi Tom. Welcome to the OGR board. Glad to see you join in the discussion. I look forward to seeing you up to speed again. Any word on the rail supply?

Tom:

 

Thanks for taking the blinders off my tunnel vision!  It is true you can use open frog turnouts with highrail.  Somehow I keep thinking about mixing scale and highrail wheelsets (ugh!, schiziod personality again).  Anxious for you to be back up and running I am ready to try your turnouts.

 

Roger

Thanks for taking the blinders off my tunnel vision!  It is true you can use open frog turnouts with highrail.  Somehow I keep thinking about mixing scale and highrail wheelsets (ugh!, schiziod personality again).  Anxious for you to be back up and running I am ready to try your turnouts.

 

Roger,

 

A lot of people run all three kinds of wheelsets on their layout at the same time.  It is not a problem at all.  I run Flyer, Hi-rail and scale rolling stock in the same train... it makes for an interesting mix.  I use Flyer link and Kadee #5 couplers.  Kadees are body mounted.

 

Tom Stoltz

I too run a variety of equipment with flyer to scale wheel sets on the same train and can have Kadee's, Flyer knuckle and Flyer link couplers all on the same train. Right now on one train  it goes from Flyer knuckles to Kadees. on the other from Flyer knuckle to link and back to knuckle again! Some of my locomotives and cars have scale wheel sets and they will run on good quality Flyer track and switches.