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Today I am back to making 5 rail track. I am using a mix of old and new track trying to conserve the track I already own. Years ago, before USA Track, I bought some ancient track that I used mostly on carpet layouts around the holidays. Some of this was silver tie Lionel. Today, I was using the rails from some of that track and found that I had put a piece of paper under the center tie on one section. I’m sure I just fixed the short and moved on at the time. Today, I took the track apart and examined the insulator. Then I saw these little spikes on the tie. Lionel apparently put them there to hold the insulator in place and speed track assembly. However, this little spike apparently wore through the insulator over time enough to create a short.  Here are some pictures. The ties are engraved Lionel and NY.

 7A1341AD-78DE-42A7-8323-7FED00436553

8DA39BEA-495E-4211-AC2A-B2535F2C99E9

George

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George -

I was very intrigued by your post title about "5 - rail track"... after reading, did you mean "five cross-ties" ?

I got my first ever Standard Gauge set in November, and have been working with early "wide-tie" SG Lionel track: three ties for the straight sections, four ties for the curves.

As far as I know, Lionel increased to four/straight // five/curved when they went to black ties circa 1929.

All of my track  / switches has aged to a dark grey patina, ties and all.  In some cases there are small areas of bright tin on the undersides of ties, and on the webs of the rail tubes.

My theory is that this pre-Black-Tie track was all bright & shiny tin-plate, top & bottom when it was new.

The ties in your picture support this theory, as well as the occasional very well-preserved track  or switch that show-up on e-bay.

As for the "points" under the center rail, I can't speak for that... I have not disassembled enough track to comment.

As for the crimps, they are indeed heavy-duty, and unless one has a special press & die, I don't believe it is possible to get those crimps as tight as Lionel did 100 years ago....  I have the aluminum die and block from PE Engineering; it's good, but the crimps I did on an early power section rebuild are not as tight, and the track has more twist-flex than it did originally.

Lionel track seems to have four crimps / flutes, some early SG track has only three crimps / flutes on the outer rails.

I will post some pics of some of my track when I can find them.

Let us see some of your finished track !

Regards,

Fran McM. 

Like you I am just beginning my Standard Gauge addiction and have finally acquired some track to run my rebuilt 10E.  One thing I noticed between Lionel and Ives track is the manner in which the rail is crimped on the bottom.  Lionel is a simple fold, Ives closer to a roll.  Lionel track on the left - Ives right.20191226_135108

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George,

I have also found that I have two different radii of wide-tie early track: don't have enough of either to make a complete circle of either to get a measurement, but if I take a section of curved track from each, and put them rail-to-rail, lining-up the end of say the inner-rail, and pinching between thumb and fore-finger tightly, to keep them aligned, the difference in radius is obvious at the middle of the rail.

This has caused me a little difficulty in assembling a floor loop:  it is supposed to take eight sections to make a circle, but the ends do not meet ( about an inch + gap), and I have to kind of force things together.

Without the slide-on track-locks, it would not stay together.  My Christmas loop has two half-sections of straight track at 12 & 6 o'clock, so that eases the geometry a little bit.

Have you found any ties with a slightly raised circular area around the crimps for the center rail ?

 

Fran McM.

Last edited by Fran McM
Fran McM posted:

George,

I have also found that I have two different radii of wide-tie early track: don't have enough of either to make a complete circle of either to get a measurement, but if I take a section of curved track from each, and put them rail-to-rail, lining-up the end of say the inner-rail, and pinching between thumb and fore-finger tightly, to keep them aligned, the difference in radius is obvious at the middle of the rail.

This has caused me a little difficulty in assembling a floor loop:  it is supposed to take eight sections to make a circle, but the ends do not meet ( about an inch + gap), and I have to kind of force things together.

Without the slide-on track-locks, it would not stay together.  My Christmas loop has two half-sections of straight track at 12 & 6 o'clock, so that eases the geometry a little bit.

Have you found any ties with a slightly raised circular area around the crimps for the center rail ?

 

Fran McM.

I believe the original track was all STD 42 (42" diameter). MTH made STD 42, STD 72 and STD 84. USA Track now makes 42", 57", 72", 84" and 87" curves. You can get several different varieties of the number of ties.

I am actually making 5 rail tubular track that can run either Standard Gauge or O Gauge trains. I'll post some pictures in a bit. The ties get wacky when you are making 5 rail track, because there is no 5 rail track tie. You have to mix both standard gauge and o gauge ties.

I'm not sure what you mean about the raised circular area around the center rail connections. Also, the center rail should not be crimped. It will just have tabs that bend over to hold the insulator to the rail and center the rail.

George 

Wow!  That’s pretty clever!

So one removes the center rail from the O gauge section and puts it aside, then clamps the center-less O gauge section around the center rail of the SG section? The O ties just float under the SG rails?

Does one have to tweak the radius of either gauge section?

Any issues with early SG wheels binding on the O rails?

 

 

 

George S posted:

Today I am back to making 5 rail track. I am using a mix of old and new track trying to conserve the track I already own. Years ago, before USA Track, I bought some ancient track that I used mostly on carpet layouts around the holidays. Some of this was silver tie Lionel. Today, I was using the rails from some of that track and found that I had put a piece of paper under the center tie on one section. I’m sure I just fixed the short and moved on at the time. Today, I took the track apart and examined the insulator. Then I saw these little spikes on the tie. Lionel apparently put them there to hold the insulator in place and speed track assembly. However, this little spike apparently wore through the insulator over time enough to create a short.  Here are some pictures. The ties are engraved Lionel and NY.

 7A1341AD-78DE-42A7-8323-7FED00436553

8DA39BEA-495E-4211-AC2A-B2535F2C99E9

George

George- what gauge are these silver ties?

Fran - I think you are still missing the point.  You have an o gauge track in the middle three rails.  Two outer rails are outside these to run standard gauge trains on.  Same middle rail for power.  There is no problem with the radius for either.  Most classic standard gauge trains were made to run on 42” (approximately) diameter track.  Don’t overthink this.  Three rails in the middle for o gauge.  Middle rail and the two outside rails for standard gauge.

Cheers,       W1

 

Fran McM posted:
George S posted:

Today I am back to making 5 rail track. I am using a mix of old and new track trying to conserve the track I already own. Years ago, before USA Track, I bought some ancient track that I used mostly on carpet layouts around the holidays. Some of this was silver tie Lionel. Today, I was using the rails from some of that track and found that I had put a piece of paper under the center tie on one section. I’m sure I just fixed the short and moved on at the time. Today, I took the track apart and examined the insulator. Then I saw these little spikes on the tie. Lionel apparently put them there to hold the insulator in place and speed track assembly. However, this little spike apparently wore through the insulator over time enough to create a short.  Here are some pictures. The ties are engraved Lionel and NY.

 7A1341AD-78DE-42A7-8323-7FED00436553

8DA39BEA-495E-4211-AC2A-B2535F2C99E9

George

George- what gauge are these silver ties?

These are Standard Gauge Lionel from early 1900's.

colorado hirailer posted:

Didn't/does somebody (Gargraves?) offer five rail track, for shelf displays, etc.?  Not still available?

I believe the 5 rail Gargraves track was for a gantry crane. I owned a section of that. It was not gauged for Standard Gauge. Also, Gargraves is a low profile track like O27. It won't handle some of the large flanged engines. My understanding is that nobody makes tubular 5 rail.

George

Fran McM posted:

Wow!  That’s pretty clever!

So one removes the center rail from the O gauge section and puts it aside, then clamps the center-less O gauge section around the center rail of the SG section? The O ties just float under the SG rails?

Does one have to tweak the radius of either gauge section?

Any issues with early SG wheels binding on the O rails?

 

 

 

Yes, the O gauge ties float. No, there is enough space for the SG wheels to clear the O rails.

The only issue is that the track lengths of the STD and O are different, so you may need to cut straights and partial curves depending on the track design. For example, there are 12 O sections in a circle and 8 STD sections. Quarter circle turns can be made without cutting. O gauge straights are 10" and STD are 14". 

George

George S posted:
colorado hirailer posted:

Didn't/does somebody (Gargraves?) offer five rail track, for shelf displays, etc.?  Not still available?

I believe the 5 rail Gargraves track was for a gantry crane. I owned a section of that. It was not gauged for Standard Gauge. Also, Gargraves is a low profile track like O27. It won't handle some of the large flanged engines. My understanding is that nobody makes tubular 5 rail.

George

I had quite a bit of the Gargraves 5 rail but sold it. I couldn’t get it smoothly bent to the tighter curves I needed. They say 72” min, I needed 60 or less. Also the rail height was an issue in a couple pieces of my rolling stock. Finally made my own 42” and 57” 5  rail.

Steve

Last edited by Steve "Papa" Eastman

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