Skip to main content

Just curious to know how many folks in the group are using DCC to control their 3-Rail O trains since MTH has added it as an option to their newer PS3 equipped locos. I would expect there are some DCC  operators here who have converted their MTH O locos to 2-rail operation, but what about those who have chosen to stay with three rail?

 

I could see this idea might appeal to someone coming from another scale who already had a big investment in a DCC control system for that scale.

 

Bill in FtL

Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

Hello Bill,

 

I'm glad you asked that question.  I've posed it in past and gotten two replies.  I think there are more prople out there trying dcc with 3 rail than that.

 

I play around with it because it is easy to build a dcc decoder for O gauge with a thru hole component PCB (not miniature surface mount parts).  And for sounds all that i really want or need is horn/bell/prime mover or whistle/bell/chuff.  Both are simple to do (i know, easy for me to say, but i designed alot of stuff for RIght of Way and TAS).

 

So lets see who has really tried dcc and what they think.

 

Regards,

 

Lou N

 

 

Originally Posted by RoyBoy:

Are there any commercially available DCC decoders that will handle the current required by an O gauge loco? They can pull as much as 2-4 amps.

Good question if you are looking to install a decoder yourself, but with MTH PS-3 locos, there's already a DCC decoder on board, making it easier to use DCC. In my case, I am currently involved in two module clubs that use DCC, one HO and one in On30. Naturally, they each use different brands of DCC (Digitrax & Lenz), so I already have the DCC systems. Recently, I have become associated with a third club that is active in 3-rail O using DCS and TMCC and also Large Scale running DC, so I feel like the last thing I need is to invest in yet another digital model train control system. I figured surely there were others in a similar situation, so I posed the question. From the limited responses, I would guess that there aren't a whole lot of folks running both DCC and 3-rail O, but at least there are some.

 

I plan to give DCC a try, because I have an MTH RailKing Alco RS1 loco on order, but in the meantime, I purchased one of the Lionel LionChief+ 2-8-2 locos, which will run in conjunction with almost any digitally controlled layout, whether DCS, TMCC, or DCC. So far, I am very impressed with this little loco, and even though it is not fully scale, it performs beautifully! At the very least, I am hoping to put off having to buy a new digital control system for a while, anyway.

 

Thanks for the input,

Bill in FtL

Originally Posted by Bill Nielsen:
Originally Posted by RoyBoy:

Are there any commercially available DCC decoders that will handle the current required by an O gauge loco? They can pull as much as 2-4 amps.

Good question if you are looking to install a decoder yourself, but with MTH PS-3 locos, there's already a DCC decoder on board, making it easier to use DCC. In my case, I am currently involved in two module clubs that use DCC, one HO and one in On30. Naturally, they each use different brands of DCC (Digitrax & Lenz), so I already have the DCC systems. Recently, I have become associated with a third club that is active in 3-rail O using DCS and TMCC and also Large Scale running DC, so I feel like the last thing I need is to invest in yet another digital model train control system. I figured surely there were others in a similar situation, so I posed the question. From the limited responses, I would guess that there aren't a whole lot of folks running both DCC and 3-rail O, but at least there are some.

 

I plan to give DCC a try, because I have an MTH RailKing Alco RS1 loco on order, but in the meantime, I purchased one of the Lionel LionChief+ 2-8-2 locos, which will run in conjunction with almost any digitally controlled layout, whether DCS, TMCC, or DCC. So far, I am very impressed with this little loco, and even though it is not fully scale, it performs beautifully! At the very least, I am hoping to put off having to buy a new digital control system for a while, anyway.

 

Thanks for the input,

Bill in FtL

Like you, I have been planning on getting a DCC system so supplement DCS and TMCC. I've also even been considering DCC as an upgrade for my conventional locomotives.

 

Some of the new PS3 Rail King engines don't have the DCC/DCS switch installed -- they're hard-coded for DCS for simplicity. There's a thread on making the modification to add the switch which is pretty simple.

ESU makes LokSound XL for higher amp rating. QSI makes Titan Magnum. Both have outstanding motor control and sound with QSI being my favorite. Both can also control a fan driven smoke unit. TCS has a G8 non-sound decoder but they are working on a larger WowSound decoder. I'm personally waiting on this one for a couple of my 2 rail models.

Originally Posted by My train book:
I run DCC on my MTH 3 rail I use a MRC  prodigy-pro-elite-10a- I can run two trains at the same time

This is very interesting; i knew there had to be folks using dcc in 3 rail.

 

i am thinking about making a sound adder board for the nce decoders.

maybe just something simple like horn/bell or whistle /bell.

 

Regards,

 

Lou N

I'm curious as to why those who are using DCC instead of TMCC or DCS are doing so? Are their reasons like mine, they already had the DCC system and simply didn't want to invest additional funds in another digital system? Or are there other reasons that I'm not aware of yet?

 

My experience with DCC leads me to believe that it is a little less "mysterious" or "quirky" than the other digital systems I read about on this forum. admittedly, that opinion may change as I learn more about DCS and TMCC - time will tell.

 

Bill in FtL


 

Originally Posted by Bill Nielsen:

I'm curious as to why those who are using DCC instead of TMCC or DCS are doing so? Are their reasons like mine, they already had the DCC system and simply didn't want to invest additional funds in another digital system? Or are there other reasons that I'm not aware of yet?

 

My experience with DCC leads me to believe that it is a little less "mysterious" or "quirky" than the other digital systems I read about on this forum. admittedly, that opinion may change as I learn more about DCS and TMCC - time will tell.

 

Bill in FtL


 

I rather enjoy building my own decoders and simple sound boards.  That's my reason. I guess I am just a habitual experimenter.

 

Lou N

I have a friend who uses DCC on his 3-rail Western Maryland Layout.    He does probably because his layout is basically scale and he is in our round robin group that is mostly HO with a few N scale and me, 2-rail O.    All the layouts are "operating" layouts with some kind of car routing system and use anywhere from 6 to 20 people to operate.    All of these 2 rail layouts use one of the DCC systems, NCE, Lenz, EasyDCC, or Digitrax.    All operate well and the guys have a lot of experience with the systems.   They can help a newcomer with questions.   So basically his experience in model railroading is with DCC rather than the 3 rail systems.

 

As for Decoders, I have installed about 40 of them in O scale locos.   They are rock solid.   I have never had one fail that was installed properly.   the only bad thing I had happen was I left a lighting wire bare when testing a chassis and burned out that function.   It was totally my fault.   It was also a minor problem since the decoder has 8 other functions and I was able to program one of the general ones for that headlight.   they are rated at 4 amps continuous and 10 amps stall.   Most of the time I can fit them in the boiler of a steamer above the weight and not have to wire them from the tender.

Originally Posted by Frank G Haymes:

Lou,

 

What chips are you using in your decoders and sound boards?

 

I would like to build a DCC decoder using an arduino.

 

I use microCHIP processors and an assortment of sound IC's from the orient.  I took some time before answering because I knew the microchip guys had an appointment here with me and I could ask some questions.

 

If you are already skilled in microchip you might want to look at chipKITT which is an arduino board with a microchip processor instead of Atmel. 

 

I ordred an arduino UNO and MICRO just to see what is involved.

 

For sounds, do you have a sound editor like Sound Forge?

Lou N

Originally Posted by Frank G Haymes:

Lou,

 

Are you programming in C or assembly?

 

I do not have a sound editor.  Do you know of a good open source one?

 

 

Frank,

 

Here are some answers; i wanted to do my homework first.  The open source sound editor is called Audacity; frequently mentioned in the LAYOUT SOUND Yahoo Group.  ALso I have acquired an Arduino micro and UNO, just to see what i can do with them.


Additionally, the microCHIP FAE's were in last week and told me that there is a microCHIP equivalent of the Arduino.  It is called chipKITT and is by Digilence.  I got one of those also.

 

The Arrow FAE showed me an arduino shield that is a motor driver; it is from ST Micro.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Regards,

 

Lou N

I am currently not using DCC with 3 rail trains (or anything else), but I am interested in DCC. I have DCS and Legacy, but all the possibilities available with DCC sound interesting. I would like to learn more about it. Seems like a good way to that would be to get a DCC system. I have a few 3 rail MTH PS3 engines that I believe are DCC capable. Probably won't be making my own decoders anytime soon like some of you are though.

 

I am definitely new to DCC and don't know a lot about it. I was looking at and thinking about the NCE DCC system before finding this thread. Something about the NCE system that keeps me looking at it. And now, from Lou N's post above about their O gauge decoders and the owner being a forum member, I may have just been convinced that is the system to get.

 

Any suggestions or advice anyone has would be appreciated.

 

One question I do have if one was using the NCE DCC system, what would be a good power supply for use with 3 rail O gauge trains? I am currently using PH-180's with my Legacy & DCS. NCE recommends a Brutus 18VAC 10amp for O gauge, same as the PH-180's. What is the difference between them?

Last edited by rtr12

I just checked the specs on the PH-180 and the Brutus 18VAD 10amp power supply.  They look the same.  The connectors on the output might be different.

 

Check the owners manual for your MTH PS3 engines.  It should tell you if they are DCC compatible.  If they are, there might be a CONV - DCC switch on the bottom.  If you do not have the switch, there is a jumper wire in side the engine that will need to be cut.  You can add a switch so you can change between DCS and DCC.  Check with MTH Service for more information on the jumper wire.

 

I have cut the jumper wire and added a switch on my MTH PS3.

 

Thanks. I didn't see a difference in specs either, wiring differences yes. I have adapter plugs for the PH-180's to go to either 2 plain wires or banana plugs for a TIU. I will probably contact NCE before I decide on what I want to do and it will probably be a while before I do anything with it. My DCS and Legacy systems with a couple of PH-180's (20 amps) were still a couple hundred less than the NCE DCC system with one of the 10 amp recommended power supplies. I already have some PSX-AC's, but I haven't gotten into the circuit breakers and other accessories needed (if any) for DCC yet. Some saving up before purchase will be required here.

 

I think the MTH Premier engines still have the DCS/DCC switch and the RailKing line has gone to the internal jumpers to switch over. I will have to look at mine and see what I have. Some are still packed away from moving a while back and I don't have room for them all on the current layout I have. I have a couple of early PS3 engines and I have almost forgotten what they look like they have been packed so long.

 

I looked into DCC a little when I returned to the hobby a few years ago, but haven't paid much attention to it since. That is until I started reading about it again recently, not sure what got me started ton that again. Anyway DCC looks very fiddly and I like to fiddle, so the interest is mounting.

 

I think everything I have read so far has been for HO or N scale. Doesn't seem to be much out there on 3 rail O gauge and DCC, and very little 2 rail large scale and 2 rail O gauge. I have only been looking at NCE, that is the one I liked from a few years ago. Back then I don't think any of the DCC manufacturers had anything on O gauge.

Since MTH is already doing it, and Lionel now has it in their Legacy electronics for S gauge, they just might start doing it in O gauge? You never know?

 

Personally, I think it would be a wise choice for them to keep up with MTH. Might even be cheaper for them to have only one set of Legacy boards that do it all, like the MTH PS3 boards, than to have two different sets? 

I agree it would be nice if Lionel did start adding multiple control support.  However, given the fact that MTH currently builds for both the 2-Rail O Scale market as well as 3-Rail, where Lionel does not, adds some credence to MTH's desire to support DCC and other control platforms on the same board.  Especially since DCC seems to be strongly embraced in the 2-Rail world.

 

I realize that the you are working with 3-Rail DCC and not 2-Rail DCC but I think that this is currently still too much of a niche market for Lionel to put any incentive into building combined DCC support into their control boards.  However, if one board will work for both S and O scales, then it would be a no-brainer for Lionel to support DCC in their O scale offerings as well.  The next step is to get Lionel to start offering 2-Rail equipment as MTH has done.  They seem to be dipping their toes in the 2-Rail scale water with their latest 86' high cube boxcars as they come equipped with scale Kadee compatible coupler drafter gear boxes and mounting support.  Next is to get them to offer an option for scale wheels too .

 

Scott K.

Austin, TX

 

Originally Posted by GGG:

The issue might be finding a DCC decoder capable of the current draw a universal motor might require, even if converted to DC.  Which will have to be done.  G

NCE does have a 8 amp decoder with a 30 Amp stall but I'm not sure if that is enough for an open motor application. I would start there but it is pricey at (I think) $109.

Originally Posted by Scott Kay:

I agree it would be nice if Lionel did start adding multiple control support.  However, given the fact that MTH currently builds for both the 2-Rail O Scale market as well as 3-Rail, where Lionel does not, adds some credence to MTH's desire to support DCC and other control platforms on the same board.  Especially since DCC seems to be strongly embraced in the 2-Rail world.

 

I realize that the you are working with 3-Rail DCC and not 2-Rail DCC but I think that this is currently still too much of a niche market for Lionel to put any incentive into building combined DCC support into their control boards.  However, if one board will work for both S and O scales, then it would be a no-brainer for Lionel to support DCC in their O scale offerings as well.  The next step is to get Lionel to start offering 2-Rail equipment as MTH has done.  They seem to be dipping their toes in the 2-Rail scale water with their latest 86' high cube boxcars as they come equipped with scale Kadee compatible coupler drafter gear boxes and mounting support.  Next is to get them to offer an option for scale wheels too .

 

Scott K.

Austin, TX

 

Scott, I really like what you are saying here and I wish Lionel would offer DCC compatibility and insulated scale wheels like MTH does. The reason is when MTH does offer a -2 steam (and some diesel) locomotives if one doesn't pre-order it or doesn't look for it as soon as they are shipped it can be extremely hard to find later on. I guess the reason is the low production numbers and the fact that very seldom folks turn around to sell them. However, look how many years it took just for Lionel to offer Kadee mounting pads. I don't think I will live long enough to see the day that Lionel offers 2 rail with all the bells and whistles.

Originally Posted by Hudson J1e:
Originally Posted by GGG:

The issue might be finding a DCC decoder capable of the current draw a universal motor might require, even if converted to DC.  Which will have to be done.  G

NCE does have a 8 amp decoder with a 30 Amp stall but I'm not sure if that is enough for an open motor application. I would start there but it is pricey at (I think) $109.

8amps is what Lionel uses.  So that would work.  G

Thanks for the video. I would be interested in more and I just subscribed to your youtube channel to watch. It's a way off in the future (too much other stuff taking the train budget right now), but I would like to have a DCC system for 3 rail at some point. I really like the NCE system, but I have also seen a couple of videos on the ESU system and it really looks nice too! Looks very easy to use and the color screen is really nice. Anyway, thanks for making the video.

paulboes posted:

Here is a link to my video for how to run DCC  on MTH 3 rail.  I hope this help everyone on this thread.  If you have more interest around DCC for O scale on 3 Rail I will create more videos based on input.

https://youtu.be/enSIPO8cIgk

 

Paul,

Great video. I also have the ESU ECoS & it was good to see another user using it for O-Scale.

I saw that you also have the ESU “Mobile Control II” wireless device. How do you like it & do you use it more than the ECoS? ECoS was my first DCC system. I bought it last year & even though I have not used it much recently, since I am planning on relocating, I liked the interface & the touchscreen. I am looking into getting the ESU “Mobile Control II” but would like some feedback before I spend $250 for it.

These are just my opinion.

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

Well that is a funny question.  The only real complaint I have with the wireless remote “Mobile Control II” is the screen size.  If you don't want to spend the 250.00 USD, but still want to be wireless than you can download an App on your phone.  The App I'm using is called TouchCab and it works fine.  To the point that I use my phone more and more to operate my trains.  The larger screen works better for me.  The ECoS needs to be connected to your router in order to connect via phone.  My ECoS is hard wired to the router.

Paul,

Thanks for your feedback on the screen size on the ESU “Mobile Control II”. I remember ESU promoting the knob on the “Mobile Control II” as being easier to use for controlling speed, over buttons or a slider on a touchscreen. Do you miss this knob when you use your smartphone app?

These are just my opinion.

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

Bill Nielsen posted:

I'm curious as to why those who are using DCC instead of TMCC or DCS are doing so? Are their reasons like mine, they already had the DCC system and simply didn't want to invest additional funds in another digital system? Or are there other reasons that I'm not aware of yet?

 

My experience with DCC leads me to believe that it is a little less "mysterious" or "quirky" than the other digital systems I read about on this forum. admittedly, that opinion may change as I learn more about DCS and TMCC - time will tell.

 

Bill in FtL


 

DCS annoys me.  Proprietary control systems limit what we can do and how much it costs to do it.  I've been away from trains for a little while and came back to discover MTH finally is doing something with Apps and phones and Wifi.  But, I still have to spend $150 for the adapter.  Meh.  DCC is fully speced and anyone with enough will power and basic knowledge can build all sorts of things.  Not so with DCS.  Apparently you will get sued if you build something that uses the DCS system in a way MTH does not approve of and tell anyone what you did.  So, I am planning on selling off all PS/2.0 engines at this point.  Maybe I'll even go to HO.  Not sure.

Oh, and I own the debacle known as a Rev H. TIU.  I also own an L, which actually works.

 

Mike

I totally agree with your dislike of proprietary systems, especially when they come with poor parts support & service. A new DCC "plug & play" DCC decoder can be had for as little as $15, and one with sound can be under $100, compare that to the replacement cost of a DCS board (if you can even get one!). Also, I think MTH made a bad decision going with WiFi instead of BlueTooth. I have a couple of BT boards in some HO models and I like them a lot. I also like my O & S Gauge LionChief and FlyerChief locos, especially their simplicity in use.

Bill in FtL

mikeporterinmd posted:

DCS annoys me.  Proprietary control systems limit what we can do and how much it costs to do it.  I've been away from trains for a little while and came back to discover MTH finally is doing something with Apps and phones and Wifi.  But, I still have to spend $150 for the adapter.  Meh.  DCC is fully speced and anyone with enough will power and basic knowledge can build all sorts of things.  Not so with DCS.  Apparently you will get sued if you build something that uses the DCS system in a way MTH does not approve of and tell anyone what you did.  So, I am planning on selling off all PS/2.0 engines at this point.  Maybe I'll even go to HO.  Not sure.

 

Did decoders that could deal with the amp loads and electrical noise inherent in 3-rail layouts exist when TMCC and DCS systems were in-development, and more importantly, if they did exist, were they commonplace (meaning most everyone using the platform including relative newbies, could point you to examples) and cost less than say, an ERR TMCC decoder?

---PCJ

Add Reply

Post

OGR Publishing, Inc., 1310 Eastside Centre Ct, Suite 6, Mountain Home, AR 72653
800-980-OGRR (6477)
www.ogaugerr.com

×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×
×