Is Anyone Using DCC to Control Their 3-Rail Trains?

Here is a link to my video for how to run DCC  on MTH 3 rail.  I hope this help everyone on this thread.  If you have more interest around DCC for O scale on 3 Rail I will create more videos based on input.

https://youtu.be/enSIPO8cIgk

Nice Video Paul!

Thanks for the video. I would be interested in more and I just subscribed to your youtube channel to watch. It's a way off in the future (too much other stuff taking the train budget right now), but I would like to have a DCC system for 3 rail at some point. I really like the NCE system, but I have also seen a couple of videos on the ESU system and it really looks nice too! Looks very easy to use and the color screen is really nice. Anyway, thanks for making the video.

paulboes posted:

Here is a link to my video for how to run DCC  on MTH 3 rail.  I hope this help everyone on this thread.  If you have more interest around DCC for O scale on 3 Rail I will create more videos based on input.

https://youtu.be/enSIPO8cIgk

 

Paul,

Great video. I also have the ESU ECoS & it was good to see another user using it for O-Scale.

I saw that you also have the ESU “Mobile Control II” wireless device. How do you like it & do you use it more than the ECoS? ECoS was my first DCC system. I bought it last year & even though I have not used it much recently, since I am planning on relocating, I liked the interface & the touchscreen. I am looking into getting the ESU “Mobile Control II” but would like some feedback before I spend $250 for it.

These are just my opinion.

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

Well that is a funny question.  The only real complaint I have with the wireless remote “Mobile Control II” is the screen size.  If you don't want to spend the 250.00 USD, but still want to be wireless than you can download an App on your phone.  The App I'm using is called TouchCab and it works fine.  To the point that I use my phone more and more to operate my trains.  The larger screen works better for me.  The ECoS needs to be connected to your router in order to connect via phone.  My ECoS is hard wired to the router.

Paul,

Thanks for your feedback on the screen size on the ESU “Mobile Control II”. I remember ESU promoting the knob on the “Mobile Control II” as being easier to use for controlling speed, over buttons or a slider on a touchscreen. Do you miss this knob when you use your smartphone app?

These are just my opinion.

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

Bill Nielsen posted:

I'm curious as to why those who are using DCC instead of TMCC or DCS are doing so? Are their reasons like mine, they already had the DCC system and simply didn't want to invest additional funds in another digital system? Or are there other reasons that I'm not aware of yet?

 

My experience with DCC leads me to believe that it is a little less "mysterious" or "quirky" than the other digital systems I read about on this forum. admittedly, that opinion may change as I learn more about DCS and TMCC - time will tell.

 

Bill in FtL

---

 

DCS annoys me.  Proprietary control systems limit what we can do and how much it costs to do it.  I've been away from trains for a little while and came back to discover MTH finally is doing something with Apps and phones and Wifi.  But, I still have to spend $150 for the adapter.  Meh.  DCC is fully speced and anyone with enough will power and basic knowledge can build all sorts of things.  Not so with DCS.  Apparently you will get sued if you build something that uses the DCS system in a way MTH does not approve of and tell anyone what you did.  So, I am planning on selling off all PS/2.0 engines at this point.  Maybe I'll even go to HO.  Not sure.

Oh, and I own the debacle known as a Rev H. TIU.  I also own an L, which actually works.

Mike

I totally agree with your dislike of proprietary systems, especially when they come with poor parts support & service. A new DCC "plug & play" DCC decoder can be had for as little as $15, and one with sound can be under $100, compare that to the replacement cost of a DCS board (if you can even get one!). Also, I think MTH made a bad decision going with WiFi instead of BlueTooth. I have a couple of BT boards in some HO models and I like them a lot. I also like my O & S Gauge LionChief and FlyerChief locos, especially their simplicity in use.

Bill in FtL

mikeporterinmd posted:

DCS annoys me.  Proprietary control systems limit what we can do and how much it costs to do it.  I've been away from trains for a little while and came back to discover MTH finally is doing something with Apps and phones and Wifi.  But, I still have to spend $150 for the adapter.  Meh.  DCC is fully speced and anyone with enough will power and basic knowledge can build all sorts of things.  Not so with DCS.  Apparently you will get sued if you build something that uses the DCS system in a way MTH does not approve of and tell anyone what you did.  So, I am planning on selling off all PS/2.0 engines at this point.  Maybe I'll even go to HO.  Not sure.

 

Did decoders that could deal with the amp loads and electrical noise inherent in 3-rail layouts exist when TMCC and DCS systems were in-development, and more importantly, if they did exist, were they commonplace (meaning most everyone using the platform including relative newbies, could point you to examples) and cost less than say, an ERR TMCC decoder?

---PCJ

"Did decoders that could deal with the amp loads and electrical noise inherent in 3-rail layouts exist when TMCC and DCS systems were in-development"

No, not at all.

There was a guy who was trying to sell DCC decoders to 3 railers in the early 2000s. I am talking 2001-2002. He had small ads in OGR and CTT. The decoders were available and worked well. I saw his display at York several times. I don’t recall if he only had decoders for engines that had can motors or not but they did exist at least for Can motored locomotives. Unfortunately, they didn’t have sound and TMCC already had a stronghold in the market so after a few York’s he stopped showing up. He kept his website up for many years but even that is gone now. There just isn’t a market for DCC in 3 rail.

My opinion on control systems is there there are pros and cons to each system but what is the most important thing to me is when I send a command to a locomotive that the locomotive responds immediately and every time. I get that with DCC. Sure there are some really cool things that the 3 rail systems do that DCS doesn’t but what’s most important to me is getting the commands reliably to the locomotive. 

It nice to have more interest in DCC for 3 rail.  I posted a video about a year ago and this thread went quite for awhile.  I do wish Lionel would support DCC as well in there decoders, but you can run Legacy with DCC.  This is my current setup.  I'm also looking at taking an ESU XL decoder for recent purchase of a engine I got that was PS2 from MTH.

Digitrax had a 5 amp decoder at that time.  All you need to do is use 2 diodes to run the split phase motor.

The setup was showed in the "Big Book of DCC".

I would love the one ring to rule them all that DCC offers but I have so much stuff its such a PITA to change now.

I just saw this wifi add on module

https://www.modelrectifier.com/Articles.asp?ID=278

Anyone have this?

Wonder if this would work with Prodigy express?

Just talked to MRC and they say it will work with Prodigy Express also! I might have to give it a try as I have everything else already!

I run my 3-rail stuff using DCC. I dislike proprietary protocols, for one. Also, when I was making the transition to command control, I had engines from all the major manufacturers that I wanted to keep and run. DCC was the only real option for that. The variety of accessories available for DCC is also pretty amazing. Finally, I like being able to design my own stuff if i want (goes back to the open protocol), like this.

I use an NCE system with the 10 amp booster and a couple of the wireless cabs. Macros are easy to program and are really handy for yard work, and setting up consists is a snap. It's a solid system that just works, and it's great to be able to walk around the house wherever and still control things. I posted a little more detail about my layout here.

I use JMRI for decoder programming and layout control. Here's a screenshot of one of my JMRI panels for this year. Controlling everything from an ipad is pretty cool.

MTH PS3 locos have decent DCC support out of the box, except that I have never been able to read their config on a program track (despite using the recommended programming booster). Other engines I use exclusively ESU decoders, either the Loksound XL or the new Loksound L Select, which is perfectly sized for O gauge stuff (the XL is too big for some engines). Consists are a blast and work great with multiple head units, mid/rear pusher units, mixed PS3/ESU locos, and so on.

Hi,

I am strongly considering going this route but I have a couple questions:

 I have read in the past that there are issues with pickup rollers arcing over switches and the DCC signal quality.  Is this still an issue?  If so, how are you mitigating it?  I have Atlas O 3rail track.

Has anyone tried controlling operating cars with accesory decoders and ardunio?  I like the switch control thor73 has, very impressive!  I thought about gutting a Lionel milk car and using a decoder/ardunio/servo to control the mechanism. 

I have done lots of research with what decoders and system to use.  I’m all set there. 

Thanks again, 

Larry

I think pickup rollers arcing on switches is also a problem for some that are using non-DCC 3 rail layouts. Not sure that is strictly a DCC problem? Probably a long way into the future, but I want to do the same thing with 3 rail and DCC someday and I also have Atlas track. I've got my eye on an NCE system.

My grandson has HO and he is wanting a command control system so I may get some practice in a little earlier.  Bad news there is I will probably be the one that has to buy him the NCE system...

GNERR posted:

 I have read in the past that there are issues with pickup rollers arcing over switches and the DCC signal quality.  Is this still an issue?  If so, how are you mitigating it?  I have Atlas O 3rail track.

I've run my layouts with a scope on the track occasionally, and I've never seen anything that I would attribute to noise from pickups (although I admit I wasn't looking for such). I've definitely never had any issues with missed commands or anything like that. I don't think noise, intermittent electrical contacts, etc. are unique to 3-rail, regardless of the contact configuration.

GNERR posted:

Has anyone tried controlling operating cars with accesory decoders and ardunio?  I like the switch control thor73 has, very impressive!  I thought about gutting a Lionel milk car and using a decoder/ardunio/servo to control the mechanism.

You could certainly 'roll your own' with an arduino and servos, if you wanted, like what I did for the turnouts. It would take a little circuitry in addition to the arduino, tho - at a minimum, an opto interface for the dcc signal, and a 5v power supply for the arduino and servo. Take a look at the paper I wrote for an idea of what's involved.

You could also go 'off the shelf' with (just for example) the ESU decoders I mentioned above. The Loksound Select will drive two servos, along with about a dozen outputs for lights, etc. You could even add custom sounds triggered in conjunction with certain actions like opening/closing doors, dumping a load, or whatever.

For less money but much more basic, there are decoders like this, which I have also used. It's intended for turnouts, but you could install it in a car just as well.

Thanks guys! I appreciate the replies. This helps a lot.

Larry

Now that ERR is no more, and I don't want to switch to DCS, upgrading my fleet of conventional locos with DCC looks attractive. I operate on a large club layout with simultaneous running of TMCC/Legacy and DCS 2 & 3 locos. Will there be a problem adding DCC through the rails, or must I go over-the-air?

rex desilets posted:

Now that ERR is no more, and I don't want to switch to DCS, upgrading my fleet of conventional locos with DCC looks attractive. I operate on a large club layout with simultaneous running of TMCC/Legacy and DCS 2 & 3 locos. Will there be a problem adding DCC through the rails, or must I go over-the-air?

Legacy & DCC has been done, but I'll let the guys who have done it chime in on it. DCC & DCS wont work together, however, MTH proto3 engines are also DCC enabled.  So running Legacy along with MTH proto3 or other DCC locos at the same time should be doable. 

paulboes posted:

It nice to have more interest in DCC for 3 rail.  I posted a video about a year ago and this thread went quite for awhile.  I do wish Lionel would support DCC as well in there decoders, but you can run Legacy with DCC.  This is my current setup.  I'm also looking at taking an ESU XL decoder for recent purchase of a engine I got that was PS2 from MTH.

could you explain how you are using DCC and legacy at the same time or are you switching between the systems. this would be a good route for me as i have two Nce systems from my old 2 rail layout. are you using the base and power supply from NCE or are you using the lionel brick and just sending the signal from NCE to the rails. now that the upgrades are gone i would like to use the DCC as its an open system with lots of support ,accesories and software options.  thanks  Rick

If I ever get to expand my layout, which I am hoping to do, I may consider moving into DCC, but maybe with 2 rail instead of 3.  More realism; and with TMCC going away, I would hate to put a lot of money into a proprietary system like Legacy or even DCS.  Just about all of the features that Legacy can offer are available in DCC from what I have been reading.  Currently running conventional.

I have three steam locomotives that I have converted to DCC in 3-rail, and I got started with that because of the demise of the original Electric rr co.

I've had to use a bridge rectifier, a 2200 microF cap, and an Airwire G3, but it has been worth it, although it costs almost $300 per engine, but this isn't much more than the old QSI systems, and the sound is not only superior, you can buy a Tsunami or WOW decoder that's meant for ho, which is great for smaller steamers.

The best part is that you aren't locked in to only one type of engine sound like you are with all the 3-rail specific systems. You get nine different chuffs, eighty different whistles, nine types of bells, eight air compressors, multiple types of turbogenerators, all in the same package. You just dial up each sound on your handheld, and select the one you want. 

My K4s now sounds exactly like a real K4s, not sort of like one. My Blue Comet now has a proper Hancock 3-chime whistle, and twin single-stage air compressors, which you couldn't get in TMCC.  My camelback has a proper cnj whistle, single-stage air compressor, and a mechanical bell that's almost spot-on for the bell sound you hear when the troop train leaves in the movie The Long Gray Line.

So I'm not going back to 3-rail specific sounds. Also, each sound has a volume that can be adjusted sperately, so you can hear each sound as it was on the real engine, and I don't know of any 3-rail specific systems that have a generator whine begin when you switch on the headlight, or air brake apply and release sounds.

DCC is the system in my layouts future, and with Airwire, I can still run my older TMCC and conventional trains.

Nice work Trainman2!!

Thank you for sharing that. I was on another path trying to power a Railpro board from a regulated circuit powered by track power. It’s a different animal and I have not been successful. 

My requirements are similar to yours with having the need to run older TMCC engines. Another requirement of mine is using operating boxcars and dumpers. This means AC power needs to be on the rails - I don’t want to convert everything to another system.

I will take another look at Airwire. 

Thanks again.

Larry

GNERR posted:

Nice work Trainman2!!

Thank you for sharing that. I was on another path trying to power a Railpro board from a regulated circuit powered by track power. It’s a different animal and I have not been successful. 

My requirements are similar to yours with having the need to run older TMCC engines. Another requirement of mine is using operating boxcars and dumpers. This means AC power needs to be on the rails - I don’t want to convert everything to another system.

I will take another look at Airwire. 

Thanks again.

Larry

Glad to help. The initial investment will be a little over $400 including the handheld. Airwire basically has the lcd screen unit with or without backlighting, and the backlighting is about $30 more. I got the one with the backlight, as my train room only has single bulb overhead lights, but you might not need that if yours has good lighting.

Airwire has a less expensive handheld, but it can only run trains, it can't program them. This is good if you have operating sessions, and have several people running trains at once.

Finally, Stanton S-cab has a set of decoders that are modified tsunami Soundtraxx units that can operate with the Airwire handheld. Stanton makes his own handheld, but like the cheaper Airwire, it mainly runs, and has limited programmability.

What railroads do you model? That might also dictate which brand of sound you need.

I run Delaware and Hudson trains on my layout. Mostly ALCO, some EMD. I have the TMCC Camelback, but the board is shot in it. It hasn’t ran in over two years.  I have been looking at Soundtraxx and Loksound decoders to use with the G3. My first project would be to get the Camelback running again on a different control system. 

Larry

Soundtraxx is what I mainly use, and I haven't tried their diesel sound yet, but they make a good Alco package, with all the prime movers and horns. I had to use tcs for the camelback, because Soundtraxx doesn't have a CNJ specific whistle.

You should be ok with Soundtraxx for your diesels, as for a D&H camelback, not sure what it had for a whistle, but you can always use a builder's whistle like alco, Baldwin, etc if in doubt. I like to listen to recordings of the real engine and match the sounds up, if you can find them. YouTube is a good place to look, or maybe you can find some DVD films of the camelback. I used the 1980's recording of 1361 for my K4s. I already knew to use the PRR 3-chime whistle, but the video helped me with the air compressor and the chuff.

When I start converting my diesels, I plan on using Jersey Central Diesels by William Brennan as a guide, because he lists all the diesels, what prime movers they had, what horns they had, and if they had dynamic brakes and radios, which comes in handy if you need to disable some sounds. I'm sure there's a comparable book out there for D&H diesels.

I'm converting from TMCC to DCC. Mostly using a $50 NCE board but retaining the Railsounds. So no extra expense for some other sound system. Just designed a Microchip to convert the DCC outputs to Railsounds commands. 

Gary E posted:

I'm converting from TMCC to DCC. Mostly using a $50 NCE board but retaining the Railsounds. So no extra expense for some other sound system. Just designed a Microchip to convert the DCC outputs to Railsounds commands. 

Would you mind sharing the schematic and programming? Email in profile

Gary E posted:

I'm converting from TMCC to DCC. Mostly using a $50 NCE board but retaining the Railsounds. So no extra expense for some other sound system. Just designed a Microchip to convert the DCC outputs to Railsounds commands. 

Any you chance you will be selling this board? I have two TMCC locomotives I would like to run off of DCC. If not I would be interested in the schematic as well. You should write an article for the model railroad press about this. 

Trainman2,

What is the maximum AC voltage you are setting on the rails? I am doing some tests with a bridge rectifier/capacitor circuit (AC maxed out at the controller) and the DC voltage is around 29V. That is over the recommended 24V from Airwire.

Thanks,

Larry

GNERR posted:

Trainman2,

What is the maximum AC voltage you are setting on the rails? I am doing some tests with a bridge rectifier/capacitor circuit (AC maxed out at the controller) and the DC voltage is around 29V. That is over the recommended 24V from Airwire.

Thanks,

Larry

16 volts AC max on the rails is my usual setting. I would check your rectifier output once you set your rail voltage just to be sure that the level is safe for Airwire, but normally that's where I keep mine set.

As a side note, with the tsunami soundtraxx, if I go a hair over the 16 volts, the sounds start to cut out when the train is standing still. If I hear the sounds fade in neutral, I ease the track power down a little until the sound comes back. 

Thanks Trainman2. Turns out the rectifier I was testing with was bad. 

Hi everyone,

I have successfully deadrailed my Lionel 4-6-0. I am using the Airwire Convrtr-60X with a Tsunami TSU-4400, powered by a 14.8V .68Ah Li-on battery. I kept the lighting the same and added a couple LEDs for the firebox flicker. I replaced the smoke unit with a Seuthe unit powered directly off the battery through a relay controlled by the Tsunami decoder.

 Soundtraxx has a great product. I started with a TSU-2200, but was getting over-current errors on my inclines. If you are running on flat track, the 2200 would work just fine. 

The smaller battery was due to not having enough space in the tender. I’m getting great run time out of it, even with the smoke unit on.

I will post a video later. Be happy to answer any questions.

Larry

GNERR posted:

Hi everyone,

I have successfully deadrailed my Lionel 4-6-0. I am using the Airwire Convrtr-60X with a Tsunami TSU-4400, powered by a 14.8V .68Ah Li-on battery. I kept the lighting the same and added a couple LEDs for the firebox flicker. I replaced the smoke unit with a Seuthe unit powered directly off the battery through a relay controlled by the Tsunami decoder.

 Soundtraxx has a great product. I started with a TSU-2200, but was getting over-current errors on my inclines. If you are running on flat track, the 2200 would work just fine. 

The smaller battery was due to not having enough space in the tender. I’m getting great run time out of it, even with the smoke unit on.

I will post a video later. Be happy to answer any questions.

Larry

Can't wait to see the video. Welcome to the Airwire world of DCC. I may try the deadrail route with my USRA switchers. As they don't run well over switches and such.

I was considering the converter route vs G3, mainly because if the more realistic chuff. After I see how yours works, I may switch my K4 to a converter and 4400. 

Here is the video.

After the video I have set it to the correct chuff rate and I’m using the Lehigh Valley single chime whistle (which is enough to scare the dog). Haha. 

GNERR posted:

Here is the video.

After the video I have set it to the correct chuff rate and I’m using the Lehigh Valley single chime whistle (which is enough to scare the dog). Haha. 

 

I love the whole train. Would like to hear the new whistle.

Also, I uploaded a video on the post The Blue Comet turns 90, with my Soundtraxx. My layout is still mostly benchwork, but I will start the senicing once I get all the signals wired up and working.

@Trainman2 how did you work around the issue of getting the signal inside a metal tender shell?  Also did you use the G3 decoder, or the G3X with external antenna lead?

Not sure "dead rail" is ready for prime time, but I've been advocating the direct R/C approach for years.  So glad to see that some people are finally doing it!!  See also this topic.

Ted S posted:

@Trainman2 how did you work around the issue of getting the signal inside a metal tender shell?  Also did you use the G3 decoder, or the G3X with external antenna lead?

Not sure "dead rail" is ready for prime time, but I've been advocating the direct R/C approach for years.  So glad to see that some people are finally doing it!!  See also this topic.

At present, I use the G3x that has the wire antenna attached. I currently have a small hole bored at the rear of the tender shell that I run the antenna out of.

It's not that noticeable, but I am working on getting nylon screws to isolate the shell from the frame, then solder the antenna to the shell.  This has been done successfully with some lionel railsounds, and I'm guessing it would work with Airwire as well.

@Trainman2 that's great!  If you don't mind, the next time you have the shell off, please post a pic of your board stack.  I would like to see how you packaged everything.  Your custom circuit with the rectifier/cap, sound module, etc.  Thanks!!

Here is a video after adjusting the chuff rate and configuring the new whistle. I will add pics later of the board stackup as well as the battery and speaker in the tender.

note: the seuthe is not synchronized with the chuff even though it might appear that way.

And here are a few photos of the insides

Any update on adding DCC to Lionel 3 rail? I have all post war 1950 to 1980 engines with no sounds. I would like to see about adding rail sounds to old engines.

Any help would be welcome.

I run DCC on O 3R, but the problem is DCC decoders are made for DC motors, and the old locomotives you have are most likely AC motors, so making them DCC would be a pain.  I'd recommend looking at ERR TMCC boards as they have boards you can buy that work for AC motors and will add RailSounds.  There is no off the shelf way to add RailSounds to DCC, and ERR or Lionel are the only places you can buy RailSound boards from.

Hi tylertrainman,

Yes, it is possible to add DCC to 3 rail engines, as Sinclair, myself, and others do run DCC engines on 3 rail track. But there are some things to consider:

1. You cannot run conventional engine (engine without a dcc board) on a track connected to a DCC system. If you do this, the motor in the conventional engine will make a high pitched him and eventually die. Therefore, take into account that EVERY engine that you want to run on DCC tracks has to have a DCC board in it. 

2. Cost. Consider the costs of converting your Locomotives to either DCC or tmcc.

   A. Remote/command station.

          TMCC remote/base and powermaster: $100ish. This will allow you to run all of your current engines without modifications.

          DCC system: anywhere between $300-700 (at new costs, used can be cheaper) for a powerful enough system to run older engines with AC motors.

In the remote category, TMCC: 1, DCC: 0

   B. Electronics for engines.

         TMCC motor upgrade kit from 3rd rail: $99. Sound adds another $89. Total = $188.

        Digitrax DH465 motor control decoder board (which can run AC motors, see link below: $45. Digitrax add on sound bug for programmable sound: $40. Total = $95. In this case, tmcc 0, DCC 1.

https://www.digitrax.com/tsd/K...s-and-lionel-type-e/

All in all, it just comes down to if you are willing to go all in with DCC, or keep some compatibility with tmcc and pay for it. 

Several years ago I converted three gutted MTH PS-1 steam locomotives with Lenz 5 amp decoders to run on three rail DC/DCC. They all worked perfectly. I didn't pursue this any further as equipping all my locomotives would had been very costly. I converted the three engines to conventional with QSI reverse units.

A reasonably priced way to run OGauge on DCC is the new BlueRailTrains/TamValleyDepot product. This will give you all the features inherent in the DCC system and can be track or battery powered.

Battery powered control systems and power systems are the way to go with our scale.

Battery technology has been proven reliable and safe with the appropriate circuitry onboard the battery pack. The technology is available to everyone at a reasonable cost. 

The battery and control system can be contained within the locomotive, and I have even managed to fit it all in an MTH S2.

With battery and Kadee couplers switching is a breeze.  I will install Kadees on a car with hirail wheelsets - although I’m shifting more toward scale wheelsets. 

That is the fun of model railroading. There are so many choices and our scale makes it easy to accomplish that. 

Below is my Lionel Camelback all battery powered with a suethe smoke unit. Lots of fun! Layout is now at the club where I can fill that place up with smoke. 😎

Have fun everyone! That’s what it’s about!
Larry

The newest BlueRailDCC boards run on AC track out-of-the-box. Connect them to your favorite DCC decoder and off you go.

Does anyone know what Lionel means by "DCC enabled"?

I have some lionel s gauge engines that are dcc enabled and they will run dcc right out of the box

Good to know and thanks for that input. What DCC decoder system does Lionel use?

not sure but there default setting is in the manual something like 72 but they program to engine just like any other decoder the s gauge es44 runs   make that 73 thanks Tom

I’m definitely a newbie to DCC but I’m using it with my small HO layout and have just recently got a 2 rail British O gauge locomotive from Dapol which I’ve installed a DCC chip and sound. 

Lionel's Manufacturer ID for DCC is 73, The Electric Railroad Co.

I am preparing my fleet for the future layout. 

All my old TMCC Diesels are being converted to DCC ESU LokSounds. 

@Doug-Sr posted:

I have some lionel s gauge engines that are dcc enabled and they will run dcc right out of the box

Is there a switch like on MTH trains to select Legacy or DCC?  If not, which does the locomotive listen to if both are on the track at the same time?

no switch it senses the dcc signal when present i dont the second part as i use a double pole double switch to switch the track from ac/tmcc to dcc i have never tried to use tmcc or legacy on same track as dcc at same time

Doug: The Lionel S Scale user manual states that the DCC signal has priority over the TMCC/Legacy signal if both are present. Your switching of the two signal systems is the much better approach.

What DCC command system are you using and are you able to access and set CV's?

Bob i use the digitrax zephyr 51 for one main and digitrax 210 booster for the other track with 10 amp power pack set to 5 amps for my s gauge , the 210 i use on rare occasion for my o gauge i then set it to 8 amps and yes you can access and set cv's

I'm eagerly following this thread! 

MTH is going away, and probably long-term support for their proprietary control system too.  My main concerns are whether DCC and Legacy can operate on the same track at the same time, without interfering with each other.  Also, whether DCC can extract the slow-speed performance out of a loco like MTH's Protosound-2 can (i.e., without the benefit of a tach sensor on the motor flywheel.)  Following!

@Ted S posted:

 

My main concerns are whether DCC and Legacy can operate on the same track at the same time, without interfering with each other. 

No, see above comments.

Also, whether DCC can extract the slow-speed performance out of a loco like MTH's Protosound-2 can (i.e., without the benefit of a tach sensor on the motor flywheel.)  

Yes, BEMF can control a locomotive’s crawl without a flywheel and sensor.

@Ted S posted:

My main concerns are whether DCC and Legacy can operate on the same track at the same time, without interfering with each other. 

Not completely.  Electrocouplers on Legacy won't work (And possible will overheat and burn out.).  Also, on parallel tracks the Legacy signal can get blown out when a DCC train passes the Legacy locomotive.

Now, if you do as above and switch your track between a Legacy and DCC signal they'll run just fine.  It's when both Legacy and DCC are on the track at the same time then the Legacy signal suffers.

@Ted S posted:

Also, whether DCC can extract the slow-speed performance out of a loco like MTH's Protosound-2 can (i.e., without the benefit of a tach sensor on the motor flywheel.) 

If you are talking about MTH PS-3 locomotives, just like I understand with DCS, I have found my locomotives don't run well until 3-4smph.  Now if you do a DCC upgrade that will be different.  I upgraded a Lionel conventional Dockside 0-6-0 locomotive to DCC with a LokSound L v4 decoder and without adjusting any CV's it runs super duper slow and smooth.

As has been pointed out many times, two track based signal systems (TMCC/Legacy & DCC) at the same time will most likely not work. Switching between them is one effective solution. The second is to use a wireless system for DCC which will operate independently from the connected track based TMCC system. If you are considering the addition of DCC for your OGauge layout, the wireless approach might be the simpler way to proceed with less technical difficulty.

My first attempt at a 3RS DCC conversion of Atlas SW switcher using ESU decoder. Very happy with sound and slow speed performance. Video is first test at the workbench.

I'm not surprised that your Atlas switcher runs well.  That one was conceived as a scale model from the very beginning.  It's designed like a scaled-up HO diesel, and is well-regarded in the 2-rail O scale community.  On the other hand, a lot of 3-rail locos are geared absurdly tall, so the back-EMF would have to work very hard to maintain scale speeds.  If someone has converted an early MTH steam loco, I would love to see a video, and to know if you're satisfied with the results.

What does it cost to convert a Lionel post war diesel or steam to dcc?

what equipment do you need to control the engine?

I am trying to see if I want to stay conventional or get TMCC on my Lionel O gauge. if Dcc is cheaper and just as good i may go that route.

I don't have TMCC or any rempte control except for a steam and a diesel Loinchief to see what the noise is about.  I love the sounds but can live with transformer control of the engines.

I can't say that TMCC/Legacy can't operate while powered with DCC track power, but I will say that doing so negates one of the engineering principles intended to produce error free communication. The data packets are transmitted during zero crossing of the AC supply voltage. That is the communication occurs when track voltage is zero. With 60 Hz power this occurs 120 times per second. DCC is an entirely different frequency.

@tylertrainman posted:

What does it cost to convert a Lionel post war diesel or steam to dcc?

what equipment do you need to control the engine?

I am trying to see if I want to stay conventional or get TMCC on my Lionel O gauge. if Dcc is cheaper and just as good i may go that route.

I don't have TMCC or any rempte control except for a steam and a diesel Loinchief to see what the noise is about.  I love the sounds but can live with transformer control of the engines.

As for which one costs less, it really depends on the number of locomotives you are going to convert.  The TMCC command base and remotes are cheaper, by almost a factor of 3, then DCC.  But the basic electronics to convert the locomotive to DCC is cheaper.  The only thing is that the locomotive has to have a DC can motor in it.  If it's got an AC motor in it then TMCC is the only option for you for command upgrade.  But it does not take much to make a DCC conversion to cost the same as a TMCC upgrade.

For the equipment, for TMCC you need a command base and remote for the layout, and then electronics in each locomotive.  For DCC you'll need a remote, command base, and booster for the layout.  Locomotives also need electronics.  And then there is programming involved to get the locomotive to preform as you want.

@Bryan H. posted:

My first attempt at a 3RS DCC conversion of Atlas SW switcher using ESU decoder. Very happy with sound and slow speed performance. Video is first test at the workbench.

Bryan, hi. Why did you choose ESU over the others?

Steve

If you are considering DCC, there are two distinct approaches which differ technically. First, there is the track signal based approach which has been discussed in a previous post. Second, there is the newer wireless based approach, either RF or bluetooth based. Wireless has some advantages. It can operate completely independent of an installed  TMCC or MTH setup. Also, battery power becomes an available option with wireless. Overall cost for either approach is quite similar.

@RideTheRails posted:

Bryan, hi. Why did you choose ESU over the others?

Steve

I can't speak for Bryan, but I can tell you why I went with ESU.

1) They have decoders that they market just for large scale (The LokSound L and XL decoders.).

2) They offer a keepalive either on the decoder (V5) or as a separate plug and play item (Older decoders.).

3) Completely customizable sounds, aka you can make your own sound sets for the locomotive.

4) Multiple customizable outputs, meaning you can set the output as lights or other features like smoke and remote couplers.

5) My brother and his friends use the brand for their N scale locomotives so I had a local ready resource to help with issues I may come across.

@My train book posted:

I run DCC on my MTH 3 rail I use a MRC  prodigy-pro-elite-10a- I can run two trains at the same time

How do you wire Dcc control station to 3rail track ?

@pvwrockford posted:

How do you wire Dcc control station to 3rail track ?

Since DCC is transmitted with the power, you wire it just like you would the transformer power, one side to the center rail and the other side to the outside rails.

For Dcc block detection using Digitrax block detector BDL. Could  you use the common return rail for detection as oppose to the power rail ?

@Bryan H. posted:

My first attempt at a 3RS DCC conversion of Atlas SW switcher using ESU decoder. Very happy with sound and slow speed performance. Video is first test at the workbench.

Love the NKP SW!

@tylertrainman posted:

What does it cost to convert a Lionel post war diesel or steam to dcc?

what equipment do you need to control the engine?

I am trying to see if I want to stay conventional or get TMCC on my Lionel O gauge. if Dcc is cheaper and just as good i may go that route.

I don't have TMCC or any rempte control except for a steam and a diesel Loinchief to see what the noise is about.  I love the sounds but can live with transformer control of the engines.

Tyler,

Look at Soundtraxx Blunami, just about any modern era engine as long as it has a can motor can be operated from your cell phone. There are a number of threads here with plenty of info, whether you operate on AC or DC current. It seems there are less and less options for TMCC, I run S gauge and for us it has pretty much been eliminated. I have Legacy/TMCC and with some planning you can do much with the Blunami, plus all the sound, lighting and momentum options are included with the decoder.

Ray

As has been mentioned by a few others, Blunami is a great lower cost solution to DCC. I have TMCC, Legacy, DCS, and now DCC via Bluetooth using Blunami. The few engines I’ve converted so far, using Blunami, have exceeded my expectations in sound/lighting options, speed control (an engine on slowest speed notch takes minutes to go 12”), component size, and cost. Sure I have to convert AC to DC via a rectifier and buck converter but this is a cheap & simple mod and I don’t have to buy all the necessary and expensive hardware needed for DCC through the rails. I even have remote uncoupling anywhere I want it. Are there negatives, sure, presently 4amp max and no reliable way to sync smoke & sound for steamers.