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I have been studying all of the Lion Chiefs for several weeks.  It seems as if the Lion Chief Plus was a great improvement, allowing conventional control, but Lionel made very few locomotives in this system.  Now, they have brought out Lion Chief Plus 2.0, for an extra $80 to $100 bucks, and it looks like all of the new offerings are going to be in the 2.0.

I doubt we will be seeing any new products in Lion Chief Plus.  And, I doubt they will keep cranking out the current engines that use the Lion Chief Plus system.   (Several of the current ones are going on deep discount.)

Mannyrock

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Well, I guess it depends on your definition of "very few." Just based on the number of LC+ locos I have I'd say there was a fair amount of motive power produced in LC+. Steam and diesel. They even did a line of Electric Rectifiers.

But I do agree that plain vanilla LC (including the popular starter sets) for the entry level market and 2.0 for those wanting more features is likely to be the future.

Last edited by Rich Melvin

Lionel has always been confusing to me.  It's the main reason why I shied away from getting involved in any of Lionel's motive power.  TMCC, TMCC with Odyssey, Legacy, Cab-1, modules for Legacy...I could never figure it out.

MTH's DCS was easy for me.  When I started it was Protosound-2.  I quickly found out and stayed away from any engines prior to Protosound-2.  DCS works with PS/2 and PS/3.  Also, Railking is semi-scale (except for some smaller diesels and switchers) and Premier is scale(with more detail).  Both work with DCS.  Railking product numbers begin 30-, and Premier 20-.  Easy!

This is not a Lionel vs MTH reply.  Just my rant. I have Lionel rolling stock.

I want to run trains, not be an electronics wizard.

@Jedderbob posted:

This is why I stick with TMCC 1 locos. Ironically enough, I use TMCC 1 for the same reason you use DCS, I don't like the screen and I find DCS to be more finicky. To each their own but I think we can agree that across the board it's getting more complicated to run trains!

Well Yes & No...Lionel offers the Universal remote which is pretty simple to operate, but it is an additional purchase (that works with all LCx & any Bluetooth equipped Legacy).

It's tough for Lionel building these things because everyone wants the cools sound effects and awesome smoke with advanced controls to run it all but they also want it to so simple a cave man can do it with with one or two buttons.  I think Lionel is doing their best to appease both crowds here while also trying to keep as much stuff as possible made previously still compatible with their latest control methods.

I started with TMCC-1 and DCS and when I build my layout and looked all of the different accessory and switch modules to run my layout from Lionel, the cost blew me away, so DCS with a $79 AIU now runs my 12 switches and 9 accessories. When legacy came out, I initially bought a base but was unimpressed with LCD icons and the interface vs what DCS had already done. It eventually got used at one of the clubs and my layout remained under TMCC & DCS control.

Again, Lionel is doing their best to make us all happy, and when you think about how many ways you can now control a Legacy or LC2 engine, you can choose how complex or simple you want it to be.

Personally, The complexity doesn't bother me, but the shortcomings of the simplicity does.

Last edited by H1000

What we are experiencing is the inevitable technological evolution that is impacting so many of the products we use in our daily lives. It was just a question of time before Lionel would introduce a wireless RF control system. I have and use my TMCC  because it has so many nice operational features. But, it is based on an obsolete transmission mode which has been begging for replacement.

@BOB WALKER posted:

I have and use my TMCC  because it has so many nice operational features. But, it is based on an obsolete transmission mode which has been begging for replacement.

One might argue Don't fix stuff that ain't broke! in reference to replacing TMCC/Legacy.  While RF control is all cool and the like, I'm not seeing a ton of must haves that I can't have with Legacy.

The evolution of LC+2.0...

TMCC...Wow this is cool.  What else ya got?

Legacy...Wow even cooler.  Great features!  Wow this is complicated and pricey.  I just wish they'd make something simple and easy to operate.

LC... Wow this is so simple to use it's great! Can they make separate engines! I wanna run more trains from the remote.  And I want individual controls for bell and whistle volumes and some of that Legacy stuff.

Universal Remote and Bluetooth...Wow now I can run 3 engines.  Can we get it to operate switches and accessories?

LC+...  Wow engines sold separately!  But I really want to run these on my TMCC layout with a controller i already have.

LC+2.0...  Wow TMCC in a LC engine  Wow this is cool!.

This is all tongue in cheek but it is sort of the evolution of it.  Fact is that LC has provided Legacy with Bluetooth running and variable whistle/bell pitches.  I just always found it funny that those who complained that Legacy was too complicated always want to add more complexity to the LC setup that was the answer to keeping it simple.

@MartyE posted:

The evolution of LC+2.0...

TMCC...Wow this is cool.  What else ya got?

Legacy...Wow even cooler.  Great features!  Wow this is complicated and pricey.  I just wish they'd make something simple and easy to operate.

LC... Wow this is so simple to use it's great! Can they make separate engines! I wanna run more trains from the remote.  And I want individual controls for bell and whistle volumes and some of that Legacy stuff.

Universal Remote and Bluetooth...Wow now I can run 3 engines.  Can we get it to operate switches and accessories?

LC+...  Wow engines sold separately!  But I really want to run these on my TMCC layout with a controller i already have.

LC+2.0...  Wow TMCC in a LC engine  Wow this is cool!.

This is all tongue in cheek but it is sort of the evolution of it.  Fact is that LC has provided Legacy with Bluetooth running and variable whistle/bell pitches.  I just always found it funny that those who complained that Legacy was too complicated always want to add more complexity to the LC setup that was the answer to keeping it simple.

Great observation. I think we see this in other technology-based industries as well. Customers will always request/demand new features without a commitment to pay for let alone use those new features. It's a real danger for the supplier.

I see it all the time in my industry.....companies buy expensive, complex high-end software to run their businesses, request customizations to make it work exactly how they want, and then use 20% of the features they said they wanted. Many would've been better off buying and using Excel and QuickBooks.

Last edited by raising4daughters
@MartyE posted:

The evolution of LC+2.0...

TMCC...Wow this is cool.  What else ya got?

Legacy...Wow even cooler.  Great features!  Wow this is complicated and pricey.  I just wish they'd make something simple and easy to operate.

LC... Wow this is so simple to use it's great! Can they make separate engines! I wanna run more trains from the remote.  And I want individual controls for bell and whistle volumes and some of that Legacy stuff.

Universal Remote and Bluetooth...Wow now I can run 3 engines.  Can we get it to operate switches and accessories?

LC+...  Wow engines sold separately!  But I really want to run these on my TMCC layout with a controller i already have.

LC+2.0...  Wow TMCC in a LC engine  Wow this is cool!.

This is all tongue in cheek but it is sort of the evolution of it.  Fact is that LC has provided Legacy with Bluetooth running and variable whistle/bell pitches.  I just always found it funny that those who complained that Legacy was too complicated always want to add more complexity to the LC setup that was the answer to keeping it simple.

Marty, you kind of touch on another issue of Marketing & planned obsolescence.

How many Polar Express sets have been made under each of those command systems? One of my  nephews is crazy about Polar Express stuff. To finally get one that he can run with the app or on his TMCC layout, I think he had bought three or four different sets over the years starting with conventional and finally ordering one with LC2.0 this year?? He spent a lot of money with Lionel to get the same set with better electronics. Each time getting just a slightly better version of the one previous.

Back in 2012 & 2013, many people (even on this forum) were already screaming at the introduction of the original LionChief to include some type TMCC interface control (among other now included popular features) to allow cross compatibility with their existing Legacy / TMCC layout, and finally 7 years later they did it. Look at how much product was produced in-between with small leaps in the technology to get where we are now. How many of us are looking at replacing older LionChief+ or non-bluetooth or non-TMCC compatible engines with the latest LC2.0 variants just to get the exact same engine with better operating features & electronics?

My personal collection doesn't have any LC, LC+, or LC Bluetooth locomotives because of the lack of control  integration with my TMCC system. Lionel may have missed on a bunch of revenue from me because of this, and couple of the folks at my local club felt a little bit of a sucker punch when they heard of the LC2.0 introduction because of the now included TMCC control features. These guys are selling off the stuff they just bought a few years ago and are looking to replace them with LC2.0 counterparts.

Even the dealers with unsold product from the LC+ & non-bluetooth equipped productions are selling their remaining stock at cutthroat prices now. They have to, why would I want to buy last years model that lacks this years features. For some this is great news but now the dealer feels the sting of clearing inventory with reduced profit.

Marketing wise, Lionel has been very smart with all of this. It was an excellent way to extend the product life of the LionChief brand and many of the products sold under that name.

FWIW, I own exactly one LC+ locomotive, the Camelback.  I'd have considered more, but the lack of compatibility with TMCC/Legacy made that decision for me.  I'm an old school guy, and I have no desire to have a dozen remotes laying around or to control my trains with my phone.  I'm perfectly happy with the TMCC/Legacy system or the MTH DCS remote, and they allow one-handed operation.

With LC+ 2.0, I'm going to grab a couple of the 0-6-0 Dockside switchers as a start, but I won't pass over any "interesting" LC_ 2.0 locomotive as Lionel heard me (and a lot like me apparently) and added TMCC control to the mix.

Awesome discussion all around.

I would add the Bluetooth range issue.  For the home user, Bluetooth is the wave of the future.  However, Lionel can't have their club users following their locomotives around a club-sized layout to keep Bluetooth in range.  Some customers really need a locomotive that runs LC at home but conventional or TMCC on the road.  Enter LC plus and 2.0.

I'm still confused as all get-out over these multiple controls.  At least LC+ made sense to me because I run strictly conventional beginner engines.  If I bought an LC+ loco I could run it conventionally.  Is conventional now dead?  Or can I get by by running my conventional stuff as usual but anything else I'll have to boost my voltage to 18V (or whatever that value is) and use a remote?  Is anything not LC+ able to be run conventionally?

Last edited by BwanaBob
@BwanaBob posted:

I'm still confused as all get-out over these multiple controls.  At least LC+ made sense to me because I run strictly conventional beginner engines.  If I bought an LC+ loco I could run it conventionally.  Is conventional now dead?  Or can I get by by running my conventional stuff as usual but anything else I'll have to boost my voltage to 18V (or whatever that value is) and use a remote?  Is anything not LC+ able to be run conventionally?

To answer the last part, yes, the new Lion Chief Plus 2.0 runs conventionally.

And I see GRJ beat me to it.

Last edited by johnstrains
@Long Hair posted:

I would add the Bluetooth range issue.  For the home user, Bluetooth is the wave of the future.  However, Lionel can't have their club users following their locomotives around a club-sized layout to keep Bluetooth in range.  Some customers really need a locomotive that runs LC at home but conventional or TMCC on the road.  Enter LC plus and 2.0.

Well, not a wave in my future!  The range isn't even useful for a fairly small 12 x 24 layout, when I walk a few feet from the end, the phone drops the connection.  The universal remote has to be within 10-12 feet of the engine!  This is for LC+ and LC+ 2.0 stuff.  In an odd twist, the remote that came with my one LC+ locomotive does much better than Bluetooth or the Universal remote.  Since that's the one locomotive I converted to battery power, that's a good thing, the remote is the only way to run it on battery!

I'll be using TMCC with any LC+ 2.0 stuff I get in the future.

IMO, yes, LC+ is dead, long live LC+ 2.0!

Last edited by gunrunnerjohn
@H1000 posted:

When legacy came out, I initially bought a base but was unimpressed with LCD icons and the interface vs what DCS had already done.

You've hit on a point that always bothered me with the Legacy CAB-2 handheld, especially now that Lionel is eventually going to be the only game in town. Despite its excellent functionality, I never liked its mostly non-intuitive user interface. For example, how do you reverse an engine if you are a first-time user without reading the instruction manual?

So going forward, is Lionel going to put all of its emphasis on Smartphone control? The LionChief 2.0 Plus gives a hint of that. But how many of us have actually tried to run our MTH and Lionel trains with a Smartphone but reverted back to the handheld (like me!)?

I have one LC+ loco, works fine, a couple things drive me batty but it is a solid performer.

My other locos are late TMCC/Early Legacy controlled with the Cab/Base 1-L. Not a lotta features, but not a lotta money, and no cryptic screens. You do need to remember the function keys, but for the most part I just use the Cab 1-L as sort of LC+ on steroids.

Haven't picked up any LC+ 2.0, but will do so just to see what it is all about. If it will run properly on my Cab-1L I will be pleased.

NO interest in Smartphone control at all.

Current TMCC/Legacy and DCS systems work well and have a large feature package which is why they are popular. The newer wireless systems based on either bluetooth or Wi-Fi (many of which I have tested) also work well and will eventually match up in features as evidenced by Lionel's progression with LionChief. Lionel chose a version of bluetooth with limited range. Other bluetooth based systems have a far greater range of operation. Also, wireless is also more adaptable to battery power.

My last three purchases have been LionChief Plus and LionChief Plus 2.0.  I still run my TMCC engines using my now ancient CAB-1.  I never made the investment in the Legacy System for the very fact that Legacy engines tend to be scale... and I have very little interest in scale trains.

I have a pair of LionMaster engines... a NYC J3a and a PRR T1 (which Gunrunner John is TOO familiar with).  I find the LionChief engines to be less finicky, and frankly have all the features that I really care about: cruise, good sounds, and Electrocouplers.

As far as 2.0 goes?  I'm having a ball with LVC and varying pitches from my phone.

Jon

If you're running then in conventional mode, obviously you'll want a variable transformer.  If you're running in command mode with a remote, my experience is from around 12-18 volts.  Note that for good smoke and electrocoupler operation, you'll need at least 16 volts on the tracks.  I recommend you don't exceed 18 VAC on the tracks for Lionel equipment.

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