Folks,
In a few threads I’ve seen mention of MTH discontinuing the DCS handheld. Has anyone actually heard this from MTH? If so, do they mean the starter set handheld (opting for app only control) or the actual full function DCS handheld?
Thanks
Marty
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Seems some of the parts are no longer available and apparently they can't find suitable replacements.
Yes, they are talking about the full function DCS handheld remote. Yes, MTH has confirmed this. I think the current batch they have produced will be the last one after that it's the app.
I believe the set remotes (DCS Remote Commanders) have already been replaced by the DCS explorer and free app.
I asked Mike Wolf about the remote when I saw him at York in October. He said that this will indeed be the last run of the hand held remote. MTH bought up all available pieces of obsolete parts and will have another part that can no longer be obtained redesigned (he told me which one, but I don’t recall). They will make several hundred remotes, but that’s it.
To add to RTR12's comments, above, it has been stated by MTH, but they also stated the last production run should last a long time, whatever that it.
More importantly, we should all get use to the idea that at some point, we will probably be forced to move our train control to our phones. While I do like feel of a dedicated remote, there is just no way the manufactures can compete with the phone manufactures in terms of hardware. So, I do see a time when we move to the phone as our remote.
There is absolutely no reason to do it now because, there seems to be plenty of new stock, but sometime in the future we will be forced to make the move.
Charlie
rtr12 posted:
I believe the set remotes (DCS Remote Commanders) have already been replaced by the DCS explorer and free app.
Uh oh. If that is the case I'll have to buy several spares. The PER is a [mostly] switching pike and there is no way I could use a phone or tablet because my eyes have to be on the train so without tactile buttons I can't look at a silly screen to see where I need to poke. Then finally I will have to give up on DCS and perhaps MTH engines as well. Those business decisions are gonna' push more than a few people away from DCS and PS3 engines.
Charlie posted:More importantly, we should all get use to the idea that at some point, we will probably be forced to move our train control to our phones. While I do like feel of a dedicated remote, there is just no way the manufactures can compete with the phone manufactures in terms of hardware. So, I do see a time when we move to the phone as our remote.
I don't buy that we have to use our phone to control the trains. Yes, it might cost more if the manufacturer has to come up with a new version of the remote, and yes, we will likely have to pay it if we still want to stick with a physical remote. Not everything is suited for running on a phone. By it's nature, running with the phone is a two-handed affair, that doesn't leave a hand free for the beer! 
Lew, If you are using the DCS Remote Commanders (50-1033), I believe you can still get those as a separate purchase. And as said above MTH is supposed to have a good supply of the full DCS remotes from this last production run. Not sure how many is in that good supply?
Above, I was talking about the MTH starter sets, which I now only see offered with the DCS Explorer in the last catalog. The DCS Remote Commander is still listed in the latest 2020-V1 catalog, just isn't included with the starter sets anymore that I could see anyway.
And I certainly agree and also prefer the hand held remotes. I have the DCS WIU and Deluxe App, but still prefer and always use the DCS handheld remote. I'll also be one of the unhappy campers if my DCS handheld ever quits and there is nothing but the app left to use.
GRJ, I would sure be willing to cough up a little extra for a DCS remote if they would continue to offer them.
Thanks folks. OK. I’ll count on MTH improving app connectivity. But... The phone app doesn’t control Ztrack. What other functions will be lost? I just joined a club that does TMCC/Legacy and DCS. The TMCC guys seem... happier? As much as I love MTH quality, this isn’t the best news.
gunrunnerjohn posted:Charlie posted:More importantly, we should all get use to the idea that at some point, we will probably be forced to move our train control to our phones. While I do like feel of a dedicated remote, there is just no way the manufactures can compete with the phone manufactures in terms of hardware. So, I do see a time when we move to the phone as our remote.
I don't buy that we have to use our phone to control the trains. Yes, it might cost more if the manufacturer has to come up with a new version of the remote, and yes, we will likely have to pay it if we still want to stick with a physical remote. Not everything is suited for running on a phone. By it's nature, running with the phone is a two-handed affair, that doesn't leave a hand free for the beer!
You know what they say John. Where there’s a Will, there’s an Ale!
Better check Barry's Book as I think ZTracks are controlled by the Top tier of the App
CurtisH posted:Better check Barry's Book as I think ZTracks are controlled by the Top tier of the App
I did check. On page 232 Barry specifically spelled out that the app doesn’t support Z4K. And what it might take. Short story is that is looks like Z4K will go away.
I think someone quoted a MTH spokesman at the Spring York during a discussion about the announcement of handhelds being discontinued, and the grumbling that ensued, saying something along the lines of "Just stop griping and get used to it." 
Not the most accomodating response. 
I love progress. Thank God. Living in the past is just that.
If you have run this app on an iPad I’m not sure why you would want to go back to the remote? The functions are millions times easier to get to and you have a huge screen. I don’t get it
gunrunnerjohn posted:Yes, it might cost more if the manufacturer has to come up with a new version of the remote, and yes, we will likely have to pay it if we still want to stick with a physical remote. Not everything is suited for running on a phone. By it's nature, running with the phone is a two-handed affair, that doesn't leave a hand free for the beer!
Some guys don't want to pay for a $5 bottle of smoke fluid and you think they'll pay more for a remote? LOL! Good one John.
Jason gartner posted:If you have run this app on an iPad I’m not sure why you would want to go back to the remote? The functions are millions times easier to get to and you have a huge screen. I don’t get it
Screens are visual, not tactile. As such when starting/stopping one must have one's eyes on the screen rather than on the train. Slow-speed switching moves at 5smph concluding with coupling to a standing car would be awkward-to-impossible using such a control scheme. An operating session on the PER involves 40-50 such moves. IMO there is something wrong with a business model that offers excellent slow-speed walk-around control and then makes operating the walk-around the task rather than operating the train, the opposite of transparent control. When screens become the only way to implement DCS MTH will start losing those of us who do a lot of switching. Of course, PS3 engines have DCC receivers so that is a possible solution but is another whole kettle-of-fish.
Jason gartner posted:If you have run this app on an iPad I’m not sure why you would want to go back to the remote? The functions are millions times easier to get to and you have a huge screen. I don’t get it
What Lew said.
It's the same reason iPad-like displays are a poor choice for controls in an automobile (though with less serious consequences of course). In the case of autos, they are here to stay for good, most likely (unless it's proved they cause a significant number of traffic deaths that could be avoided if controls were buttons/levers/knobs).
Of course there is no such life risk for our trains, so nothing will change this course if
MTH is not interested in investing in another piece of hardware.
"Alexa, back up the Norfolk Southern S2 switcher at 3 scale miles per hour. Alexa Stop!" (you have to talk fast and it needs to catch your voice(proces and send commands) really fast since Alexa can't really cant see or "feel" the couplers close like you can see it)
Hope it doesn't come to that, but that's more likely than them investing in a new remote, it would seem.
In the mean time, I will probably keep buying another backup remote from time to time as long as they are still available.
-Dave
Has anyone ran into the problem of not being able to bring inactive engines to the active list? This querk was first noticed in 2015 by @Mrmacher. I purchased my app(premier version) January 8st 2020 and have this same problem five years later! @dave(the train store man) mentions this also in this post. Barry(at the time) said he had no clue! HELP
breezinup posted:I think someone quoted a MTH spokesman at the Spring York during a discussion about the announcement of handhelds being discontinued, and the grumbling that ensued, saying something along the lines of "Just stop griping and get used to it."
I wonder if Mike w. will get use to it when we stop buying his trains..
Jason gartner posted:If you have run this app on an iPad I’m not sure why you would want to go back to the remote? The functions are millions times easier to get to and you have a huge screen. I don’t get it
Simply put. Now I have to think about the Wi-Fi in my house. Did it drop out. Did my phone attach to a different connection point. My friend has to load an app, or I need to buy multiple “handhelds” in the form of phone like devices anyway. Did the DCS system boot up in the proper order, that I can come home and run. I feel like an apologist here. (I love my mth stuff), but I’m hoping they have a rock solid solution on tap. Because waaahhhhh! I want to play with my toys.
I tried the app on my phone, that didn't work well for me. tried it on a i pad mini, and that didn't work out. So I sold my wifi and bought another remote.
I have an operational walk around layout, I spot cars at industries, build train consist's in the yard, and have to watch the road trains constantly, on my single track 300 foot main line. I have to watch the train not the remote. Usually when operating, the remote is in one hand held near my hip, the other hand is uncoupling the cars or throwing switches, as I walk around following the train, in sometimes a to narrow isle.
I think the app is good for those of you that like to watch the train run around while you sit down and enjoy a beverage with good company. Which like to do sometimes.
For me a touch screen just doesn't cut it.
Folks - I posted this in the other thread on yhis topic, but since Fedex doesn’t have my package, my workday is shorter and I can think more about trains :-)
Since we are talking about toys, let me frame my example in the context of toys. Please stay with me past the next sentence. Let’s compare trains to video games that aren’t resident on a handheld device (it works. your trains aren’t on your handheld).
In a video game you stare at the screen. Finger poised over a tactile button. Your eye sees THE GAME. Your finger is just a tool. It’s the same with model trains. You (I assume) want to enjoy what the train is doing. Your thumb is on the thumb wheel or hovered over the horn, or or or. You enjoy the train. Your thumb is a tool. In either situation, if you have to stare at the controller to do the thing, you miss the thing. Plain and simple. This isn’t a change from touching a throttle to being overwhelmed by 30 buttons. It’s the change from enjoying the train to being sucked into the screen.
Jason gartner posted:If you have run this app on an iPad I’m not sure why you would want to go back to the remote? The functions are millions times easier to get to and you have a huge screen. I don’t get it
If you have to ask that question, there's little to be gained by trying to answer it.
It’s technology and it isn’t going anywhere, I remember when tmcc first came out and dcs, everyone complaining about how they can’t use it and so so ..... now everyone is using them and took the time to use it and figure it out, you have to spend time with it . They make lanyards and ways to hold these devices and mounts so it’s easy. I guess being in my mid 30’s puts me at both ends of this but I love the app on an iPad. My 5 and 3 year old run them with app and can scroll through do everything and like it much more than remote. People want they’re engine to have whistle smoke and wipe their rear end but can’t adapt to a new device.
Jason gartner posted:It’s technology and it isn’t going anywhere, I remember when tmcc first came out and dcs, everyone complaining about how they can’t use it and so so ..... now everyone is using them and took the time to use it and figure it out, you have to spend time with it . They make lanyards and ways to hold these devices and mounts so it’s easy. I guess being in my mid 30’s puts me at both ends of this but I love the app on an iPad. My 5 and 3 year old run them with app and can scroll through do everything and like it much more than remote. People want they’re engine to have whistle smoke and wipe their rear end but can’t adapt to a new device.
Jason
now you’ve hunkered down into a position. No one is saying the app doesn’t have a place. I’m 53. My video game example comes from my own life playing Nintendo golf. It’s reinforced by my adult children, one of which is a computer engineer. Sure there is stuff you can do with the app. But if you want to enjoy that burst of train smoke, wouldn’t you rather watch the train?
While I tend to side with the "remote" folks, there is still quite a bit of looking at the remote to access some of the more obscure features. Sure you can throttle, sound the whistle/bell, and a few other functions but beyond that you are looking at a keypad or other button to make something happen. The remote though to me is still the best way for me. I know there are folks that can make that smart device sing when running trains and most of them are younger than me. LOL!
No doubt you have to look at the remote for some seldom used features, but my fingers can easily find the thumbwheel and the commonly used functions without looking at the remote.
gunrunnerjohn posted:No doubt you have to look at the remote for some seldom used features, but my fingers can easily find the thumbwheel and the commonly used functions without looking at the remote.
I thought I said that. LOL!
All this talking about the remote, which I have four and love, vs the the app, which I have the premier app, and love for some things (setting up routes is way easier in the app) makes me appreciate MTH even more. Have you ever used a legacy remote from Lionel? Definitely not the easiest way to run a train and enjoy it! Just saying.
MartyE posted:gunrunnerjohn posted:No doubt you have to look at the remote for some seldom used features, but my fingers can easily find the thumbwheel and the commonly used functions without looking at the remote.
I thought I said that. LOL!
You Did! LOL!
CurtisH posted:Have you ever used a legacy remote from Lionel? Definitely not the easiest way to run a train and enjoy it! Just saying.
All the time. I guess its what you are used to.
I love computers and my cell phone and my Alexa. But for some reason, my WIFI/DCS doesn't work on my club layout. (The app does work for other members.) So without a remote, I can't run my engines. I have the same problem with my Lionchief app. So I strongly believe there is a roll for the specialized remote.
Who said that MTH has shut the door on a dedicated remote? WiFi and the app open up different possibilities for interaction.
First, MTH could (and should) add an API to there app that would allow a user to attach a PS4 style gaming controller to a phone or tablet and add the tactile button to the app. This would be similar to the Nintendo switch style experience. Use the built in screen when needed and look at the big picture when needed. For demonstration purposes I already use a Bluetooth mouse attached to my Droid device so that I can operate the app without my fingers being in view over the screen.
WiFi also doesn't mean that MTH can't or won't develop a new dedicated remote to operate with the WIU. Dedicated hardware to operate over WiFi can be built and implemented into a newer DCS style remote if they so choose. WiFi (much like Bluetooth and 900MHz radio used in the DCS remote) is just a carrier of the data for the device whether that be a dedicated remote, or an app running on a smart device.
H1000 posted:Who said that MTH has shut the door on a dedicated remote? ..................
Mike Wolf himself stated (TCA Museum York week a few years ago) that once it's not possible to make the current remote due to parts obsolescence, he was not planning on creating a new design for one to replace it. He pointed to a phone and said he could not justify the expense to develop new hardware when such a capable alternative that most (not all) people already have available to them (much cheaper to develop and upgrade software than hardware).
There was a lot of feedback then, as there continues to be.
The more recent announcement of a new "final run" of the current remote that did include a minor redesign to address a part that was no longer available was after the initial announcement and reaction.
Unless there has been enough backlash to change that path, the remotes will be no more once they are gone.
But I maintain, no one should rush out to buy them up, leaves more for me to create my collection of spares.
-Dave
Even if you prefer using phone control, all kinds of issues and inconveniences can arise if you're restricted to a cell phone. I use my iPhone for a lot of things, and sometimes I want to leave it set on a certain site. And sometimes I let my wife use it if she has misplaced hers (or she may even take it with her in a pinch), or if her phone has gone dead (happens a lot ). Even things happen like this past weekend, when my phone got hijacked so my wife could use it to show friends a bunch of grandkid movies I'd made. All sorts of things can get in the way of train operations.
When any of these things happen, train operations come to a screeching halt, or can't get started, without a handheld. And of course you can't use your phone for other things if it's tied up running trains, which is a big negative to me. Even Batman knows that sometimes you need to have backup.
H1000 posted:Who said that MTH has shut the door on a dedicated remote?
Mike Wolf at October York...
Dave45681 posted:H1000 posted:Who said that MTH has shut the door on a dedicated remote? ..................
Mike Wolf himself stated (TCA Museum York week a few years ago) that once it's not possible to make the current remote due to parts obsolescence, he was not planning on creating a new design for one to replace it. He pointed to a phone and said he could not justify the expense to develop new hardware when such a capable alternative that most (not all) people already have available to them (much cheaper to develop and upgrade software than hardware).
There was a lot of feedback then, as there continues to be.
The more recent announcement of a new "final run" of the current remote that did include a minor redesign to address a part that was no longer available was after the initial announcement and reaction.
Unless there has been enough backlash to change that path, the remotes will be no more once they are gone.
But I maintain, no one should rush out to buy them up, leaves more for me to create my collection of spares.
-Dave
You must not have read anything after the first line. The app could be turned into your new remote with tactile buttons. Back before the WIU was even a rumor, everyone thought that MTH should redesign the the DCS Remote to include new features such as the CAB2 did. There was talk of a a larger screen with color and then eventually it should have a touch interface... all the things found in a modern smart phone of the time.
MTH doesn't need to design new hardware to make a new DCS remote. They simply need to include some additional code in the current app that allows the end user to use any of the 1000's add-on gaming controllers available and already being used. Heck, MTH could even contract with one of those gaming pad developers and brand the hardware via a third party for much less cost than ever redesigning the remote.
Think outside of the box a little, the app could do more if MTH would just unleash chains on it a bit more.
H1000 posted:Dave45681 posted:H1000 posted:Who said that MTH has shut the door on a dedicated remote? ..................
Mike Wolf himself stated (TCA Museum York week a few years ago) that once it's not possible to make the current remote due to parts obsolescence, he was not planning on creating a new design for one to replace it. He pointed to a phone and said he could not justify the expense to develop new hardware when such a capable alternative that most (not all) people already have available to them (much cheaper to develop and upgrade software than hardware).
There was a lot of feedback then, as there continues to be.
The more recent announcement of a new "final run" of the current remote that did include a minor redesign to address a part that was no longer available was after the initial announcement and reaction.
Unless there has been enough backlash to change that path, the remotes will be no more once they are gone.
But I maintain, no one should rush out to buy them up, leaves more for me to create my collection of spares.
-Dave
You must not have read anything after the first line. The app could be turned into your new remote with tactile buttons. Back before the WIU was even a rumor, everyone thought that MTH should redesign the the DCS Remote to include new features such as the CAB2 did. There was talk of a a larger screen with color and then eventually it should have a touch interface... all the things found in a modern smart phone of the time.
MTH doesn't need to design new hardware to make a new DCS remote. They simply need to include some additional code in the current app that allows the end user to use any of the 1000's add-on gaming controllers available and already being used. Heck, MTH could even contract with one of those gaming pad developers and brand the hardware via a third party for much less cost than ever redesigning the remote.
Think outside of the box a little, the app could do more if MTH would just unleash chains on it a bit more.
Nope, I read the whole thing, thanks. But thanks for the condescending attitude!
Hopefully you are right and the controller people want to diverge into supporting model train systems as well.
They sell millions of video games, huge opportunity for return on investment. No so much for any effort expounded in the realm of model trains.
-Dave
Jason gartner posted:It’s technology and it isn’t going anywhere, I remember when tmcc first came out and dcs, everyone complaining about how they can’t use it and so so ..... now everyone is using them and took the time to use it and figure it out, you have to spend time with it . They make lanyards and ways to hold these devices and mounts so it’s easy. I guess being in my mid 30’s puts me at both ends of this but I love the app on an iPad. My 5 and 3 year old run them with app and can scroll through do everything and like it much more than remote. People want they’re engine to have whistle smoke and wipe their rear end but can’t adapt to a new device.
I well remember '95-'96 when TMCC came out. My memory is completely contrary to "everyone complaining". Hook up one wire, Run the TMCC loc. No problem.
Now, DCS did bring on "complaining" as it was more complicated (wiring, remote) ... but that was 5-6 years later than the introduction of TMCC.
Dave45681 posted:Hopefully you are right and the controller people want to diverge into supporting model train systems as well.
They sell millions of video games, huge opportunity for return on investment. No so much for any effort expounded in the realm of model trains.
-Dave
The controller people don't need to diverge into support model train systems. MTH needs to tell their app developer to include an API (application programming interface) to allow the use of external controllers within their app. The API won't cost much if anything to include and boom all of those gaming controllers can now be used with the app and the buttons on those controllers can be mapped to your liking. now you have a fully customizable DCS remote vs the one size fits all we had before.
I tried the wifi with my phone and a tablet. It works fine, but I am like others who like the feel of real buttons, especially when trying to watch the train. I just ordered a second remote through my LHS CT McCormick Hardware in Zelienople, PA under this new part number. How long will they make them? Who knows??
It is DCS Remote Control Handheld (Version 6.10)
Mark, I stock piled a number of them finding and buying them when the price was right. I am not keen on using my phone to control the trains plus I am a dinosaur when it comes to tech stuff. I like the hand held remotes..................Paul 2
Interesting thread. I personally think the phone or pad is a two hand affair and you have to look at it to see where to put your finger, etc. Don't disagree...there is no tactile feedback on a phone or pad. I like to watch the train and the layout...that's why I'm doing this anyway, and I run the remote with one hand for the most part.
I wonder when all the tv, cable, and dish companies will abandon the remote. It seems to me it would be a lot easier to transition for them than the interactive running of a model train. Especially when there are 5 of us running 5 engines on a 12 by 14 layout with switches changing and timing when to slow, let a train go thru a switch, and then run past the block it was on. Getting really close is more fun, but I think there might be a little too much latency with a phone.
MartyE posted:gunrunnerjohn posted:Yes, it might cost more if the manufacturer has to come up with a new version of the remote, and yes, we will likely have to pay it if we still want to stick with a physical remote. Not everything is suited for running on a phone. By it's nature, running with the phone is a two-handed affair, that doesn't leave a hand free for the beer!Some guys don't want to pay for a $5 bottle of smoke fluid and you think they'll pay more for a remote? LOL! Good one John.
The same guys spend $1500 on an engine. It's not about the cost with smoke fluid, it's about the thrill of the hunt for the cheapest no shipping find.
H1000 posted:Dave45681 posted:Hopefully you are right and the controller people want to diverge into supporting model train systems as well.
They sell millions of video games, huge opportunity for return on investment. No so much for any effort expounded in the realm of model trains.
-Dave
The controller people don't need to diverge into support model train systems. MTH needs to tell their app developer to include an API (application programming interface) to allow the use of external controllers within their app. The API won't cost much if anything to include and boom all of those gaming controllers can now be used with the app and the buttons on those controllers can be mapped to your liking. now you have a fully customizable DCS remote vs the one size fits all we had before.
Oh! DING!DING!DING! We have winner! 
Really. Quick, cheap, simple, using repurposed readily available (did I say cheap!) hardware.
The 2020 MTH Volume 1 catalog announced on p. 9 the release of an upgraded handheld #50-1038. It will be available this month at a ton of dealers. Looks like the demise of the handheld is not occurring anytime soon.
Pat
If you watch the Oct 2019 MTH presentation at the TCA Open House (it’s on you tube) and listen to the Notch 6 podcast for the MTH catolag 2020 Vol 1(48 min in), it seems that they have found a replacement processor chip and will continue to produce the remote. It it’s also stated that there is a new product number for it.
Or am I misunderstanding?
Mark W.
It is DCS Remote Control Handheld (Version 6.10)
I agree with Marty above. Running trains requires keeping an eye on trains, not watching a game screen.
As I noted in another thread,it would be interesting to see how many advocates of the wifi have complex operations on a layout, involving many locos running simultaneously on intersecting routes.
For those of you that know me, I tend to vote with my wallet. On the issue of the DCS remote:
REGARDLESS of the business decision MTH may or may not make, I WILL keep trains running on my layout. FWIW, I also have a TMCC remote AND the cable connecting the TMCC command base to my TIU. I have options.
If you have the slightest concern, act now while there are still options. Wait, and you get zero sympathy from Gilly.
I have laid in a supply of DCS remotes.
Nonetheless, I suspect there may be more to this than just whether to keep manufacturing remotes. The question may be whether manufacturers see the handwriting on the wall with the future of model train control going to direct communication (Bluetooth or otherwise) between the controller and the locomotive/car as in Bluerail or the various Lionchief/Flyerchief products. In other words, will any system that requires an intermediate "relay" (such as the TIU or Legacy/TMCC base that put some kind of signal into the track based on input from the remote) become obsolete?
PGentieu posted:Nonetheless, I suspect there may be more to this than just whether to keep manufacturing remotes. The question may be whether manufacturers see the handwriting on the wall with the future of model train control going to direct communication (Bluetooth or otherwise)
The latest batch of Lionel Legacy engines run Bluetooth with a free app. IMHO, Lionel has taken a giant step in the correct direction. Hopefully, there is nothing patent-able about this.
Bluetooth sucks one engine at a time
Jason gartner posted:It’s technology and it isn’t going anywhere, I remember when tmcc first came out and dcs, everyone complaining about how they can’t use it and so so ..... now everyone is using them and took the time to use it and figure it out, you have to spend time with it . They make lanyards and ways to hold these devices and mounts so it’s easy. I guess being in my mid 30’s puts me at both ends of this but I love the app on an iPad. My 5 and 3 year old run them with app and can scroll through do everything and like it much more than remote. People want they’re engine to have whistle smoke and wipe their rear end but can’t adapt to a new device.
No Jason. The fact is you are not comprehending the fact that many of us run our trains differently from you. For us, a flat screen device without tactile controls is impractical to use and would lead to mishaps. You have a free invite to come to a NJ Hirailers open house as my guest and I will be glad to demonstrate this to you in person. My email is in my profile. There are tasks I perform when running trains for which I cannot stop to look at a screen to complete the operation realistically - I need to be able to operate a remote without looking. Many others are in the same boat.
-Greg
Jason gartner posted:Bluetooth sucks one engine at a time
That is not an accurate statement. You can operate more than one engine at a time via Bluetooth - and yes, I assume you mean with only one controller.
-Greg
Jason, but will it run more than one engine at a time? 
Greg H: You are absolutely correct!
I’ve sold hundreds of dcs systems to customers when my uncle owned his train store, then the WiFi unit. Problem is the new people coming into this hobby choose the app. My kids are 5 and 3 run multiple trains on a 10x30 ft layout, they rather run the app! Not saying it’s the best but after using the app vs remote, the remote is better for making things happen faster maybe while you hsve your nose touching the train but the app is faster for whistle steam, switches, and playback etc or moving from train to train, I have pods on all sides of my layout to hold iPads.
Bluetooth is crap, on the app is terrible only one engine. At time . Doesn’t work very far away.
Jason gartner posted:I’ve sold hundreds of dcs systems to customers when my uncle owned his train store, then the WiFi unit. Problem is the new people coming into this hobby choose the app. My kids are 5 and 3 run multiple trains on a 10x30 ft layout, they rather run the app! Not saying it’s the best but after using the app vs remote, the remote is better for making things happen faster maybe while you hsve your nose touching the train but the app is faster for whistle steam, switches, and playback etc or moving from train to train, I have pods on all sides of my layout to hold iPads.
Jason,
where’s your store? I’d definitely stop in if my travels take me nearby. Why can’t both the app and the handheld exist? Has the demand for the handheld died, or is it truly a parts issue? If it’s parts, then make a handheld using today’s parts. The hardware that much more complicated than a tv remote. We don’t need a wheel (it’s the weakest point anyway). The channel up down buttons could do that function.
My family owned train depot in mt airy md. Sold 2 years ago. My dad still works there helping repairs. Not what it used to be but new owners are trying, I think both remote and app should exsist.
Gilly@N&W posted:PGentieu posted:Nonetheless, I suspect there may be more to this than just whether to keep manufacturing remotes. The question may be whether manufacturers see the handwriting on the wall with the future of model train control going to direct communication (Bluetooth or otherwise)
The latest batch of Lionel Legacy engines run Bluetooth with a free app. IMHO, Lionel has taken a giant step in the correct direction. Hopefully, there is nothing patent-able about this.
Wait till you lose the Bluetooth signal on your layout. NOT a nice adventure!
From following this thread (and the OGR forum), there still seems to be a fair demand for the handheld. I'm one that prefers the handheld remote. While many folks do like the apps and wifi, there are some of us that still prefer the remote.
Now here's something else, they are still making transformers with handles! Reason being, some folks still prefer conventional operation.
There is no reason these options for train control (as well as any new ones) can't all exist at the same time. Then we can all be happy running our trains just the way we enjoy running them.
Excellent observations RTR12!!! I'm not against any form of control; it would be great if every method we have mentioned here continues to be economically feasible to continue!
According to one of the MTH officers the DCS hand held remote control will be discontinued. The current design requires a "firmware" upgrade that he said would cost upwards of $100,000. So, this is the reason given to me for discontinuing the hand held remote. In the mean time MTH has cobbled together enough remaining parts for a few more remote units. These will have a different Sku number from the original remote. Once these are exhausted there will be no more. Running trains with a phone or ipad is apparently what MTH wants us to do. For myself, I run conventionally because the transformer handles of the Z-4000 transformers remind me of the Lionel ZW days. I also enjoy using the Z-4000 remote for enabling a walk around throttle without the full capacity of the soon to be unavailable DCS remote.
You can buy a lot of firmware help for a hundred grand! I think they're overstating the case a bit! However, since we aren't privy to the details of the design, it's a moot point.
I’ll be picking up a new remote when they come out. I have the APP and I don’t use it, my son doesn’t like it, just so many anomalies using it.
turbgine posted:According to one of the MTH officers the DCS hand held remote control will be discontinued. The current design requires a "firmware" upgrade that he said would cost upwards of $100,000. So, this is the reason given to me for discontinuing the hand held remote. In the mean time MTH has cobbled together enough remaining parts for a few more remote units. These will have a different Sku number from the original remote. Once these are exhausted there will be no more. Running trains with a phone or ipad is apparently what MTH wants us to do. For myself, I run conventionally because the transformer handles of the Z-4000 transformers remind me of the Lionel ZW days. I also enjoy using the Z-4000 remote for enabling a walk around throttle without the full capacity of the soon to be unavailable DCS remote.
Sounds like there is a time warp here. MTH is NOT discontinuing the DCS handheld. To the contrary, as noted in several earlier posts, MTH is continuing to manufacture the DCS handheld. Indeed, they are offering an upgraded version in their new catalogue, # 50-1038, that has been ordered by a huge number of dealers.
Pat
irish rifle posted:Sounds like there is a time warp here. MTH is NOT discontinuing the DCS handheld. To the contrary, as noted in several earlier posts, MTH is continuing to manufacture the DCS handheld. Indeed, they are offering an upgraded version in their new catalogue, # 50-1038, that has been ordered by a huge number of dealers.
Pat
Sounds like you're not paying attention! MTH has stated they are making a FINAL limited run of the remote and there will be no more! How is that not discontinuing the remote? Did you actually read any of the discussions on the remote?
turbgine posted:According to one of the MTH officers the DCS hand held remote control will be discontinued. The current design requires a "firmware" upgrade that he said would cost upwards of $100,000. So, this is the reason given to me for discontinuing the hand held remote. In the mean time MTH has cobbled together enough remaining parts for a few more remote units. These will have a different Sku number from the original remote. Once these are exhausted there will be no more. Running trains with a phone or ipad is apparently what MTH wants us to do. For myself, I run conventionally because the transformer handles of the Z-4000 transformers remind me of the Lionel ZW days. I also enjoy using the Z-4000 remote for enabling a walk around throttle without the full capacity of the soon to be unavailable DCS remote.
I hope that doesn’t read like “We’re actually not big enough to compete in the train control arena” Atlas, WBB, RMT and anyone else left doesn’t. If redoing the handheld is too expensive, I doubt they have the money to compete as Bluetooth and Wi-Fi evolve. It remains to be seen, I suppose. Meanwhile, I’ll play with what I have. My next engine will be my first Lionel with Legacy and/or Bluetooth. I’ll see how it goes.
WOW! I just googled the new remote and got hits for the other forum threads on this topic. Hope MTH is reading. If I sit back and think before I type, I wonder if we aren’t caught up in the same forces that made just about every 5 to 15 year old “computerized” anything obsolete, or at best “no longer supported”. That’s a tad frustrating as I try to budget for more locomotives.
CurtisH posted:Gilly@N&W posted:PGentieu posted:Nonetheless, I suspect there may be more to this than just whether to keep manufacturing remotes. The question may be whether manufacturers see the handwriting on the wall with the future of model train control going to direct communication (Bluetooth or otherwise)
The latest batch of Lionel Legacy engines run Bluetooth with a free app. IMHO, Lionel has taken a giant step in the correct direction. Hopefully, there is nothing patent-able about this.
Wait till you lose the Bluetooth signal on your layout. NOT a nice adventure!
Has this happened to you? What was the equipment? What was the result???
Jason gartner posted:Bluetooth sucks one engine at a time
I've experiencing short range with the BT, with the Universal Remote or my phone, I can't get more than around 20 feet from either of my Legacy BT equipped locomotives before they lose the connection. I am not impressed so far, and I'm glad that Lionel has the good sense to continue making their high-end command remote. They even make two versions of remotes so you have a choice!
Yes, with Lionel, I can use the Universal remote or my phone as well.
I don't want to be too picky, but reducing the choices down to one, the phone app, doesn't seem the right way to go!
Greg Houser posted:Jason gartner posted:Bluetooth sucks one engine at a time
That is not an accurate statement. You can operate more than one engine at a time via Bluetooth - and yes, I assume you mean with only one controller.
-Greg
RJR posted:Jason, but will it run more than one engine at a time?
Greg H: You are absolutely correct!
There is a new bluetooth standard, (LE) on the horizon that might provide new opportunities in our hobby.
Bluetooth LE Audio is coming later in 2020, and it will radically expand what’s possible when using compatible devices like smartphones, wireless headphones, and even hearing aids. Introduced today at Consumer Electronics Show 2020 by the Bluetooth Special Interest Group (SIG), the new Bluetooth specification includes the ability to share audio wirelessly from a single smartphone to many Bluetooth headphones. It also includes a new standard audio codec known as LC3 that the group claims will sound better and use less power than the previous standard, called SBC.
More info at Digital Trends - Next Version of BlueTooth LE
Bluetooth LE, the LE stands for Low Energy. That also suggests short range. In point of fact, Bluetooth LE is designed for stuff like earphones and wearable devices to communicate with your phone or your computer while you're sitting front of it.
Of course, then there's the question if any new longer range Bluetooth version does appear, will make it to any future remote. If they're dropping the remote for their flagship command system, what does that suggest for future development in general?
John, please stop trying to convince the non-believers with common sense and facts.... it leaves more of the limited supply of remotes available for the rest of us .....
-Dave
Dave45681 posted:John, please stop trying to convince the non-believers with common sense and facts.... it leaves more of the limited supply of remotes available for the rest of us .....
-Dave
LMAO - I’m having trouble finding one tonight
Lionel will also end remote production at some point. Lionel is clearly migrating towards the app and tablet, selling them alongside the traditional remotes until such time as the apps are sufficiently capable and developed and hoping that occurs (likely will) before they have to re-engineer the handhelds, while at the same time using technology to bridge the multiple operating systems (legacy, lionchief plus, lionchief) that have evolved to meet different market segments. I think it is a sensible approach, but realize directionally it is the same approach MTH is taking. MTH can get there a bit faster because it's sole system is DCS.
Finally, a lot of folks here bemoan the greying of the hobby. Consistent with the poster above, my 8 and 11 year olds will only use the MTH app and we have had no issues with multiple locomotives, range, or anything else. The traditional handheld is no longer really used and the app appeals to young hobbyists. That is worth something.
As you all likely know, not only isn't there a physical remote in the last couple of years of MTH sets, but there isn't any means whatever of controlling the loco in the set per se. You must buy or have a smart device that you are content with using with the Explorer.
I wonder how this news is received by potential purchasers of $400 toy train sets? Cannot imagine it's a big crowd pleaser for those new to the hobby. I will be surprised if this doesn't backfire big time over the long run. Seems penny-wise and pound foolish. I was astonished to find out when I bought a separate sale Explorer that it did not come with a power supply (maybe $10 cost?), nor any instruction or suggestion about an appropriate power supply other than a Z1000, for another 100 smackers.
These control and power supply decisions strike me as distinctly consumer unfriendly in both instances. No big deal for an experienced hobbyist with some technical know how, but otherwise....
"Lionel will also end remote production at some point. "
I doubt if it will occur in my lifetime (give or take 10-20 years with any luck). Ryan Kunkle stated so in the Notch 6 podcast. The universal remote and the LionChief remotes are dirt cheap and very simple and reliable. The key item will be a TMCC/Legacy to LionChief bridge for those using those systems and a LC to TMCC/Legacy bridge for those who want to use their LC or universal remote to talk to the occasional Legacy loco. It appears this is feasible.
Personally, I very much prefer physical remotes for TVs, cable, Bose radios and would prefer them for video games if I played them. Even cars with gigantic touchscreens maintain some physical controls for exactly the reasons people have mentioned for the MTH remote. I prefer a mouse and keyboard for computers to touchscreens, which is another area where us older folks tend to like the tactile utility of non-virtual technology.
So..... Anyone wanna sell any fully functional, but terribly outdated and obsolete DCS handhelds? Probably Not worth much..... Gotta check.
Marty, No I’m going to hold onto mine. They are like gold! LOL. I’m with you! I have one more on the way and may get another!
Mark Boyce posted:Marty, No I’m going to hold onto mine. They are like gold! LOL. I’m with you! I have one more on the way and may get another!
So the DCS remote is one of the very few model train items that will actually appreciate in value? Perhaps dealers should consider charging more than MSRP or just sit on them for 5 to 10 years and then really ask a premium price.
I think I might pick a few up also, and sell them down the road to some chump... or will I be the chump and break even at best in a few years.
H1000 posted:Mark Boyce posted:Marty, No I’m going to hold onto mine. They are like gold! LOL. I’m with you! I have one more on the way and may get another!
So the DCS remote is one of the very few model train items that will actually appreciate in value? Perhaps dealers should consider charging more than MSRP or just sit on them for 5 to 10 years and then really ask a premium price.
I think I might pick a few up also, and sell them down the road to some chump... or will I be the chump and break even at best in a few years.
They will die with the technology. Only our loco shells will hold value, so long as we can find something to put between track voltage and the motor. Sell now!
gunrunnerjohn posted:
I don't want to be too picky, but reducing the choices down to one, the phone app, doesn't seem the right way to go!
Not being picky, variety is good practice. One should never keep all their eggs in just one basket!
I've always preferred DCS, a lot of that is because I really like their handheld remote. With the pics you posted here, the other guys seem to be on a much better path to attract more people to the hobby with all the options they are coming up with.
Also, aren't there still a few things the app can not do that the remote can? I'm not current on the app updates.
Landsteiner posted:"Lionel will also end remote production at some point. "
I doubt if it will occur in my lifetime (give or take 10-20 years with any luck). Ryan Kunkle stated so in the Notch 6 podcast. The universal remote and the LionChief remotes are dirt cheap and very simple and reliable. The key item will be a TMCC/Legacy to LionChief bridge for those using those systems and a LC to TMCC/Legacy bridge for those who want to use their LC or universal remote to talk to the occasional Legacy loco. It appears this is feasible.
Personally, I very much prefer physical remotes for TVs, cable, Bose radios and would prefer them for video games if I played them. Even cars with gigantic touchscreens maintain some physical controls for exactly the reasons people have mentioned for the MTH remote. I prefer a mouse and keyboard for computers to touchscreens, which is another area where us older folks tend to like the tactile utility of non-virtual technology.
You are correct in the sense they are taking a chance. However, not sure if you own, or have used, the DCS mini commander but it comes off like a tv remote from the late 80s. Given that starter sets are seemingly aimed at entry level hobbyists which includes younger people to a large extent, I have a different perspective on the risk (e.g., how many folks don't have a smartphone).
Also, from a business perspective I can understand why MTH does not want to invest in hardware technology that is in large respects obsolete. My sense is Lionel is going in the same direction and that is why you are seeing expansion in Lionchief plus - it is an inexpensive remote built with off the shelf widely available components and it can be transitioned to an app easily. It is stuck with Legacy on the high end, but at least in that segment the users will pay the premium for the remote and keep that afloat for a while. Remember Lionel had the same issue with Legacy remotes a number of years ago - the had to re-engineer the internals and they were unavailable for several years. Then they made a big batch and my guess is that the big batch is what is still feeding the inventory given the low volume of users relative to train hobbyists.
In any event, always an interesting exchange of views here. Have a good day.
I had already jumped into command control with both feet once I ran the Legacy Visionline Big Boy with the Cab-2. Then in the not to distant past I felt ready to pony up for DCS as well since MTH makes some train Lionel never has that I wanted. Then before I pulled the trigger this whole the remote is no more thing came up. Whelp, with that I never did buy it. Instead I went a different path, DCC. This does limit me from being able to run MTH's and Lionel's locomotives at the same time, but at least I can run them knowing I'll always be able to have a remote in my hand. So my layout is switchable between TMCC/Legacy and DCC. The best part, I can still control the blocks and turnouts with LCS when in DCC.
This topic seems to have been pretty well covered in multiple pages with most posts boiling down to personal preference. Regardless; I’ll add my 2 cents.
I’ve got one DCS remote (upgraded to v6.10) that I use no more than once or twice each week (“and only on Sunday” 😉) with the majority of my train running being handled from either my old iPhone 6 or my newer XS. In fact; the old 6 is exclusively used for running trains and is kept on my transformer stand next to the DCS remote.
Insofar as MY personal preference; I do like the tactile feel of the thumb wheel, whistle and bell buttons and direction control when using the remote. On the other hand; the more I use my iPhones to run trains, the better I’ve become at “knowing” where the horn button is without looking and I don’t need to use direction control as an emergency stop when I have an “oh s@@t” situation as a simple thumb bump to the lower left of the speed gauge will drop the speed to zero.
As a few others have posted, I’ve also found the iPhone easier to use when modifying the identity of an engine and when switching back and forth when operating multiple trains. Moving engines between active and inactive is also a snap using the iPhone.
I think MartyR has shown some entrepreneurial spirit though! He’s got me thinking about conducting a raffle for my DCS remote with the winner being notified upon my death. I’m thinking $25 a chance might be a nice round number. 🤔😁
Curt
There's people who, for physical limitations and/or disabilities, cannot use Smart Screen technologies - swiping alone is near impossible to accomplish, let alone frustrating, which negates the entire purpose of the application. The DCS remote, as well as the original TMCC remote or Cab1L with their respective analog buttons, are applicable alternatives for some of these folks who still want to run trains via a remote. However, from personal experience, the DCS remote is the easiest to use for a disabled person (notably those with hand-spasms) due to the thumbwheel, which while not perfect, is easier to control than the red dial on the various Cab remotes.
I believe there will always be some relatively easy to use remote controls in the O-gauge hobby. Lionel has kind of gone this way with the various LionChief applications and I predict they will to take the lead on future developments as well.
The other thing that I don't like about the app. there is no keyboard, I was going to keep it just as switch track control panel. But I have to swipe and scroll to what I want. On the remote I just enter the switch number and there it is. Engines the same way. I have thirty switches in my remote and they are just a number away. If I remember correctly on the app they only list I think five at a time, and the print is to small and you can't change the print size. I used a dedicated I Pad mini.
Holding on to your remote as long as you can seems fine except when MTH stops making updates and upgrades. Then you have what amounts to a sonic remote (remember those pinging remotes) that work great but no longer have a TV that responds to it.
Ah Space Command just like the one that the Air Force will soon have.
Paul Kallus posted:There's people who, for physical limitations and/or disabilities, cannot use Smart Screen technologies - swiping alone is near impossible to accomplish, let alone frustrating, which negates the entire purpose of the application. The DCS remote, as well as the original TMCC remote or Cab1L with their respective analog buttons, are applicable alternatives for some of these folks who still want to run trains via a remote. However, from personal experience, the DCS remote is the easiest to use for a disabled person (notably those with hand-spasms) due to the thumbwheel, which while not perfect, is easier to control than the red dial on the various Cab remotes.
I believe there will always be some relatively easy to use remote controls in the O-gauge hobby. Lionel has kind of gone this way with the various LionChief applications and I predict they will to take the lead on future developments as well.
Paul,
I'll differ with you that the apps allow those with disabilities to participate better. There is an older member in our train club that has Parkinsons and operating the remotes with the tiny buttons is extremely difficult, let alone holding them like we do. The app with larger buttons ( on a 11 inch tablet) and the use of a weighted stylus has been much easier for him to use. Before the apps, he was limited to conventional operation only using transformer handles.
Smart devices have all sorts assistive technologies and add-on devices in many forms that help facilitate those with differing disabilities, something that the remotes barely even address.
I just saw a NIB handheld go for about $260 on ebay. Seems somewhat high to me. What is msrp on these?
Rod
Rod Stewart posted:I just saw a NIB handheld go for about $260 on ebay. Seems somewhat high to me. What is msrp on these?
Rod
$200 MSRP for the new catalog number one in 2020 V1.
$170 MSRP for the old catalog number one in 2019 V2.
Was it a new one or the old one?
{edit} Never mind, I found it - it was an old one for $272. Of course a set with a TIU included sold for $300 a few days before.... might have been an older TIU, but it' wasn't a Rev G (said DCS on the cover, not Proto 2 like the Rev G did). I probably would have gone for the one with the TIU as a spare for the extra $28. )
-Dave
The new model that I ordered was $174.95 retail.
Smartphone/app/whatever control is simply not an option IMO as the primary control input for a system where real world hardware can be damaged if you lose control. I don't want to by typing in a passcode, waiting for my phone to update, closing out whatever popup is up at the moment, etc. while a train is running off the track. There's a reason nobody operates industrial machinery like cranes with a smartphone.
I use both dedicated remotes and touchscreens on my layout. The touchscreen is nice, and can speed up some things like major switching operations, but is never used solo - it is just a compliment to the dedicated remote.
I run DCC, not DCS, so I'm not directly impacted by the current conversation. But I will say, if you're looking for options, it's worth considering. PS3 locos support DCC out of the box, so that part is easy.
The NCE remote, complete with hardkeys.
And JMRI on an iPad with a scale layout map with touchscreen control for turnouts, macros, accessories, etc.:
thor73 posted:I run DCC, not DCS, so I'm not directly impacted by the current conversation. But I will say, if you're looking for options, it's worth considering. PS3 locos support DCC out of the box, so that part is easy.
Easy?
The same old statement comes up from the DCC crowd, but it's getting a little tiresome! 
The only way to go to DCC is to abandon all your PS/2 and Lionel TMCC/Legacy locomotives! Hardly a realistic option for the vast majority of users! 
Perhaps someone like NCE will come up with a remote that speaks all languages. Looks like the need is already there. Other than your smart phone. I have an old Buick Reatta which has a touch screen and I remember when it was new I thought it was so cool and everyone who got in the car did also. Till I almost rear ended a car which stopped in the middle of the block and I was looking at my touch screen. Same problem with using a smart phone to run your trains. You spend so much time looking at the screen you don't see your trains. Kind of like watching movies with subtitles. j
Is the thumb wheel cradle the main failure point of the DCS remote?
thor73 posted:Smartphone/app/whatever control is simply not an option IMO as the primary control input for a system where real world hardware can be damaged if you lose control. I don't want to by typing in a passcode, waiting for my phone to update, closing out whatever popup is up at the moment, etc. while a train is running off the track. There's a reason nobody operates industrial machinery like cranes with a smartphone.
I use both dedicated remotes and touchscreens on my layout. The touchscreen is nice, and can speed up some things like major switching operations, but is never used solo - it is just a compliment to the dedicated remote.
I run DCC, not DCS, so I'm not directly impacted by the current conversation. But I will say, if you're looking for options, it's worth considering. PS3 locos support DCC out of the box, so that part is easy.
The NCE remote, complete with hardkeys.
And JMRI on an iPad with a scale layout map with touchscreen control for turnouts, macros, accessories, etc.:
That would not be an option for me or many others. I have several locomotives and replacing them would be impossible.
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