Is this 1976 Amtrak set the earliest release by Lionel/ MPC/ Fundimensions of a set in Amtrak livery?

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@PRRMP54 posted:

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Sorry! I changed the "audience" to include everyone on and off FB. I will also repost them here. Thanks for letting me know, Dave!

There’s lots of add ons available for that set too

That's the Lake Shore Limited set, and I believe the set number was 6-1663. And the other guys are right; there were a trio of additional passenger cars and a dummy B unit meant to go with this set, and then there were some Amtrak F3's that were produced I believe a few years prior to this set being released.

Good looking set! JohnA

Amtrak day is May 1st, 1971.  Either way, this is a fairly early set that represents the Phase I paint scheme era of Amtrak.  Amtrak really didn't get much of a consistent paint scheme until roughly 1973.  Even though I am a scale modeler, I have always enjoyed the MPC era Amtrak sets.  If I didn't have so much Amtrak already, I'd consider getting a set.

Yours looks great!

@GG1 4877 posted:

Amtrak day is May 1st, 1971.  Either way, this is a fairly early set that represents the Phase I paint scheme era of Amtrak.  Amtrak really didn't get much of a consistent paint scheme until roughly 1973.  Even though I am a scale modeler, I have always enjoyed the MPC era Amtrak sets.  If I didn't have so much Amtrak already, I'd consider getting a set.

Yours looks great!

Thanks, Jonathan. I was thinking of the passage of the Rail Passenger Service Act of 1970, Public Law 91-518, passed on October 30 of that year, which confirmed both the need for continued intercity passenger service and created the National Railroad Passenger Corporation. I have always thought of May 1, 1971 as the "switchover date". In any event, I was curious as to the earliest date that Lionel issued any Amtrak set or items, and I have since learned that the F3s #s 8466 (powered) and 8467 (dummy) were the first issued, in 1974 and 1975, respectively.

This set I bought  comprises the first Amtrak items I have ever bought, even though I have ridden several of its trains...the Empire Builder, California Zephyr, Southwest Chief, Lake Shore Limited, Cardinal and the train to Toronto (forgot the name) come to mind.  Also, I favor near scale items, and the 11" or 13" O 27 passenger cars never appealed to me...so I have bucked my own trend by purchasing this set. I think the historic livery phases and Heritage Schemes have gotten me recently interested in Amtrak and its history.

@Grampstrains posted:

The first Lionel Amtrak item was 8466 Amtrak F3

Thanks, Grampstrain. That powered unit was issued in 1974, the dummy was issued in 1975 and a B-unit #8475 was also issued in 1975. Therefore, they all preceded the ALCO set I just bought. IMHO, Lionel missed the boat by not issuing similarly scaled passenger cars, but people ran them with "matching" cars issued by  Williams.

@Lyinel posted:

There’s lots of add ons available for that set too

Yes, and I've been on various sites looking at add-ons and later issues to the O27 sets all morning. There are more than I might have guessed.

@The GN Man posted:

The F3 A-B-A set was 8466/8475/8467.  According to Lionel's engine numbering at the time, these were produced in 1974.  No matching "O" passenger cars were available from Lionel, but IIRC Williams did offer some a year or two later.  Those F3's couldn't pull much, as only the 8466 was powered and it was single-motored.

Yes, dual motored F-units would have been preferable, along with Magna Traction...after all, it had been done before.

@John A posted:

Good looking set! JohnA

I agree...thank you!

@carnerd3000 posted:

That's the Lake Shore Limited set, and I believe the set number was 6-1663. And the other guys are right; there were a trio of additional passenger cars and a dummy B unit meant to go with this set, and then there were some Amtrak F3's that were produced I believe a few years prior to this set being released.

Thanks for that info....I didn't know which set this was. The "real" Lake Shore Limited is a train I actually rode on, between Chicago and Poughkeepsie, back in 1973 or so,  in the "rainbow livery" or "tossed salad" period.

@The GN Man posted:

The F3 A-B-A set was 8466/8475/8467.  According to Lionel's engine numbering at the time, these were produced in 1974.  No matching "O" passenger cars were available from Lionel, but IIRC Williams did offer some a year or two later.  Those F3's couldn't pull much, as only the 8466 was powered and it was single-motored.

Lionel did some aluminum passenger cars in an Amtrak scheme that could go with those F3s, but not until 1989. I knew someone who exchanged the powered single motored Amtrak F3 shell chassis with a dual motored chassis, and put the  engines with these passenger cars, and it made a pretty nice set. Back to your new Alco set, John, it really looks great. There are several good YouTube videos showing the set in action.

I can confirm that Carnerd3000 is correct.  That is the Lake Shore Limited set# 6-1663.

Here are a couple of pictures of the original Box:

FWIW, I added about 16oz of weights inside the #8664 which significantly improved its pulling power.

Here are a matched pair of ALCO's: #8903 (dual motor) and #8904 (dummy) that appear to use the same frame and shell.  Not sure when these were made.

@breezinup posted:

Lionel did some aluminum passenger cars in an Amtrak scheme that could go with those F3s, but not until 1989. I knew someone who exchanged the powered single motored Amtrak F3 shell chassis with a dual motored chassis, and put the  engines with these passenger cars, and it made a pretty nice set. Back to your new Alco set, John, it really looks great. There are several good YouTube videos showing the set in action.

Thanks for that info, breezinup. That does make a beautiful and good-pulling set! I'll have to check out those YouTube videos.

@SteveH posted:

I can confirm that Carnerd3000 is correct.  That is the Lake Shore Limited set# 6-1663.

Here are a couple of pictures of the original Box:

FWIW, I added about 16oz of weights inside the #8664 which significantly improved its pulling power.

Here are a matched pair of ALCO's: #8903 (dual motor) and #8904 (dummy) that appear to use the same frame and shell.  Not sure when these were made.

Those 8903/8904 units are from the Silver Spike set of 1988/89.  

@SteveH posted:

I can confirm that Carnerd3000 is correct.  That is the Lake Shore Limited set# 6-1663.

Here are a couple of pictures of the original Box:

FWIW, I added about 16oz of weights inside the #8664 which significantly improved its pulling power.

Here are a matched pair of ALCO's: #8903 (dual motor) and #8904 (dummy) that appear to use the same frame and shell.  Not sure when these were made.

Thanks, Steve. I appreciate the photos of the box. The 8903 and 8904 were issued in 1988, I believe. The 8903 has two motors, which beats the 8664, but it has that "big mouth" pilot to accommodate the front coupler, which takes away from its appearance, IMHO. Adding weights to the 8664 is a good idea.

@jay jay posted:

Thanks, Jonathan. I was thinking of the passage of the Rail Passenger Service Act of 1970, Public Law 91-518, passed on October 30 of that year, which confirmed both the need for continued intercity passenger service and created the National Railroad Passenger Corporation. I have always thought of May 1, 1971 as the "switchover date". In any event, I was curious as to the earliest date that Lionel issued any Amtrak set or items, and I have since learned that the F3s #s 8466 (powered) and 8467 (dummy) were the first issued, in 1974 and 1975, respectively.

This set I bought  comprises the first Amtrak items I have ever bought, even though I have ridden several of its trains...the Empire Builder, California Zephyr, Southwest Chief, Lake Shore Limited, Cardinal and the train to Toronto (forgot the name) come to mind.  Also, I favor near scale items, and the 11" or 13" O 27 passenger cars never appealed to me...so I have bucked my own trend by purchasing this set. I think the historic livery phases and Heritage Schemes have gotten me recently interested in Amtrak and its history.

Amtrak as a name only came into use just a few weeks prior to the start date.  The original name for Amtrak was Railpax.  I think we can all agree that Amtrak is an improvement!

I grew up with Amtrak having been all of 9 years old on my first Amtrak ride from NJ to DC in 1978.  E60CH pulling Amfleet cars, but I saw a non-modified Metroliner and a few GG1s that day.  Great memories.  Ironically my last ride on Amtrak in 2016 was also in Amfleet cars.  My favorite time on Amtrak was the late 80's when I was riding Slumbercoaches back and forth to college.  Until I rode the Canadian last month, I'd say the Slumbercoach was my favorite passenger car, but the rebuilt Prestige class VIA Chateau cars now hold that honor. 

Since Amtrak is over 50 years old now, I think you like many now appreciate the history of this railroad.  While I model multiple eras and roads, I have modeled Amtrak in HO, N and O.  My first set of passenger cars were Life-Like HO cars based on the 1950s Penn-Line tooling which is fairly similar to the O27 Lionel cars.  I was about 10 when I got those? 

You do have me curious now though as to the first model train that was offered in Amtrak colors.  Lionel may be the one!  The only other ones I can think of from the 1970's are the Atlas N scale F units, Athearn's venerable FP45 in HO, and Bachmann HO and N Metroliners which up until Walthers did them recently were the most accurate ones done.  I think they all came after 1976 though.

All I have in other scales is a LifeLike F40ph and a ConCor Viewliner sleeper, both in N Gauge. I do not know when they were issued. Its an interesting question, though. Certainly would take some research!

Lionel offered a set of 15" aluminum cars headed by a bloody nose GG1. But these came after your set.

Williams did jump in to fill the gap with a 15" aluminum set. I think you could get them along with an E60 in Amtrak colors or with their version of the FP45. (separate sale)

Chris

LVHR

@mlavender480 posted:

Those 8903/8904 units are from the Silver Spike set of 1988/89.  

Yes and the 8903/4 ride a lot higher than the 8664 in your set. I also believe they are a little wobbly when pulling a long train.

That is a great set! I still have mine with all of the add ons. Santa brought that to me as a kid to share with my brother and we ran the wheels off it! Now my boys are enjoying it too when they take a brake from command control. My dad bought a post war ALCO to swap out the weak power that originally came with the set and cut out a space for the coupler in the front.  Magna Traction make it a real puller.

As a kid who has only known Amtrak as the singular long distance passenger train option, I always wanted a set. The problem back then was Lionel only made the ALCO and F3s which were long gone by my time. I really wanted an F40PH. Got those now!

Enjoy that awesome set and I wish you success in finding solid examples of the add on cars and the B unit!

Here is the 8664 with the Post War chassis and cut out for the coupler. The second pic is a tiny bit of Christmas wrapping paper still attached! Love this set!

I have a later set with black roofs on the passenger cars: 

As seen at the Sugar Creek show in February.  The baggage car and 221 Dreyfuss are homegrown... 

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...eyfuss-a-bloody-nose

Mitch

Back in 1974 Lionel issued a powered Amtrak F3A, catalog #8466 and a non-powered F3A #8467. The following year they issued a non-powered F3B unit #8475. I own two of the A units which I purchased from the Train World Store in Brooklyn, NY in 1976. These were the first Amtrak locomotives that Lionel issued.

Actually, National Lampoon had the first Lionel Amtrak catalogue in October, 1973:

https://themmmzone.blogspot.co...catalog-1973-74.html

Mitch

Thanks for that link. Mad is hilarious as always.

I have this set.  It was a gift from my mom and dad in the late 1970s, first train set purchased for me as compared to my dad's postwar that I inherited.  Nice looking set, but the engine was afflicted with the MPC wobble big time and the pulling power was anemic.  Would have been great to figure out how to marry the MPC also shell to the higher end Alco chassis that was used on the first run postwar locos, but the front apron on the MPC is plastic, and on the postwar variants the shell ends at the front and the apron is die cast with the rest of the frame and fuel tank.  A nice looking set though.  

@Ray Lombardo posted:

I have this set.  It was a gift from my mom and dad in the late 1970s, first train set purchased for me as compared to my dad's postwar that I inherited.  Nice looking set, but the engine was afflicted with the MPC wobble big time and the pulling power was anemic.  Would have been great to figure out how to marry the MPC also shell to the higher end Alco chassis that was used on the first run postwar locos, but the front apron on the MPC is plastic, and on the postwar variants the shell ends at the front and the apron is die cast with the rest of the frame and fuel tank.  A nice looking set though.  

Ray...it can be done,you need to cut the apron off and install the clips that are used on the cast frame Alco's...I have done it,it's not hard....the clips are available from parts suppliers....the hardest part is to cut off the apron so it's nice and flat...after that all you need to do is mount the clips...you can rivet or nut and bolt them....try Jeff Kane for the parts..   www.ttender.com  good luck...joe

Joe

What's your suggestion as to how to cut off the apron?  Dremel?

Thank you,

Ray

The ALCO A-A set that came with the later Silver Spike set are identically painted  to the Lakeshore Limited set (maybe numbers are different). They used the can motors in the trucks and might wobble less.

There was also an uncataloged Amtrak set 6-30029, Alco FA with three O-27 pass cars, sold by Hobby Lobby in 2005.

@Ray Lombardo posted:

Joe

What's your suggestion as to how to cut off the apron?  Dremel?

Thank you,

Ray

Ray...I rough cut it with a hack saw then I used a belt sander with fine grit...put the sander in a vice then carefully take off the rough edge...takes a little practice but not hard.....good luck...joe

Mitch,

That  National Lampoon ad is a howl! Love it!

Chris

LVHR

@bigtruckpete posted:

That is a great set! I still have mine with all of the add ons. Santa brought that to me as a kid to share with my brother and we ran the wheels off it! Now my boys are enjoying it too when they take a brake from command control. My dad bought a post war ALCO to swap out the weak power that originally came with the set and cut out a space for the coupler in the front.  Magna Traction make it a real puller.

As a kid who has only known Amtrak as the singular long distance passenger train option, I always wanted a set. The problem back then was Lionel only made the ALCO and F3s which were long gone by my time. I really wanted an F40PH. Got those now!

Enjoy that awesome set and I wish you success in finding solid examples of the add on cars and the B unit!

Thanks for your comments, Pete.

I have the AA F3s from the early 1970s and paired them with three of the 1989 aluminum Amtrak cars. All purchased separately recently. The powered unit pulls the set OK, and the outfit looks great, too.

@Dave Warburton posted:

I have the AA F3s from the early 1970s and paired them with three of the 1989 aluminum Amtrak cars. All purchased separately recently. The powered unit pulls the set OK, and the outfit looks great, too.

The 6-8466/67 F3A's were in the 1974-76 catalogs.  A 6-8475 B unit was offered in the 1976 catalog.  Tried the trio with all seven of the 1989 aluminum cars and had to pare down to four counting the unilluminated baggage car.

@hobby-go-lucky posted:

The 6-8466/67 F3A's were in the 1974-76 catalogs.  A 6-8475 B unit was offered in the 1976 catalog.  Tried the trio with all seven of the 1989 aluminum cars and had to pare down to four counting the unilluminated baggage car.

I probably would have removed the B unit and the add-on full vista dome car, and then run it with the A-A and original 6 cars. Another alternative is to drop the shell onto a dual motored chassis, very easy to do. I dropped the shell of a MPC-era single motored no. 8566 Southern F-3 onto a PWC F3 dual motored chassis (with TMCC), which takes less than 10 minutes, and that yields plenty of power to pull a full set of aluminum passenger cars.

@ed h posted:

There was also an uncataloged Amtrak set 6-30029, Alco FA with three O-27 pass cars, sold by Hobby Lobby in 2005.

Aha!  That explains the modern electronics in my Amtrak Alcos!  Mystery solved.

@lehighline posted:

That  National Lampoon ad is a howl! Love it!

I was eleven when that came out and I was howling with laughter at both the material and how well it was presented.   

Mitch