Issue with Menards Rolling Stock

The Menards Guy seems like a nice chap who has produced some GREAT O scale structures. Give him a chance to make things right!

The Menards box cars look like the KMT rolling stock of old. The plastic injection and decorating process looks pretty good. Perhaps the small defects that we are seeing in the trucks are due to the fact that the line is extremely price driven so the Chinese ships the defects as they often do as the solution.  . When a quality defect is discovered over there the owners of the company just say don't worry, they are already paid for so just ship them all! 

I'll give him, or her, 100 years.  After that, all bets are off.

Look.  I know I come off as a real hard head about this, and I don't manufacture model trains so where do I get off picking fights with another man's designs?  Especially since that manufacturer sells the cars at such reasonable prices.  I got on line and looked up Menard's model trains.  Appears since 2015 they've added model trains to their list of hardware.  I also found out for certain that it was the Hardware store.  Thought so.  I took a look at what they have to offer.  Folks, they make some NICE rolling stock.  I knew that before I looked.  I had seen their work on ebay.  They sell their stuff at the store online if you are interested.  I especially like what I saw in the Flat bed department.  Very nice stuff.  Fantastic line of stock for the Military enthusiast.  Jeeps, trucks, rocket launchers, helicopters.  One has a UH-60A Blackhawk helicopter.  I was thinking of buying that one before I read all of the stuff about wheel and truck issues.  I used to be a Blackhawk Crewchief.  Would make a nice addition to my personal train that i run on my layout.  Each car has a special meaning.  Another thing i noticed was the length.  Over 14 inches.  Correct me if I am wrong, and you will, this translates to 56 feet in real life based on the 1/4 inch scale.  It may not be a Premier class scaled Flat car, but it sure as heck doesn't cost $75.  Based on the length and the fact it has a scale model helicopter on it, $35 plus shipping is a bargain.  But not if I it keeps derailing or scoots or needs 084 curves to work right.  I have the 084 curves.  They have nice stuff.  

I just finished regauging two Menards hoppers, that scraped the center rail when going over Gargraves switches.  Turned out the distance between the outside base of the wheel flanges was 1.17 inches.  (I can't see measuring the inside gap, because the flanges of different mfrs may be of different thicknesses, while the one constant (more or less) is track gauge.) Spread them to 1.24 and that seems to have solved the problem.  Now I'll go back through my rolling stock for I have a few cars, all Lionel I think, that brush the Gargraves center rail when backing around a curve; now that I've got a system, I'll trying widening those to 1.24" also.

The bottom line is that a $20 box car is not a $50 box car.  Even if you replaced both trucks, you'd still be ahead of the game. I go to train meets and pickup new leftover box cars that don't sell for $10. I buy them only for the trucks then toss the body away.

Dennis LaGrua posted:

The bottom line is that a $20 box car is not a $50 box car.  Even if you replaced both trucks, you'd still be ahead of the game. I go to train meets and pickup new leftover box cars that don't sell for $10. I buy them only for the trucks then toss the body away.

Ok, so now you’ve added another $10.00 to the car, plus the cost of going to the train show or however you acquire these. Not a slight, but it seems there is a point that this is no longer cost effective. Seems in the early years of Menards rolling stock, they had wheel gauge issues and got it fixed. But now the problem is back.

Steve

This sounds like a product recall issue. if Menards sold you a defective drill you would be able to go in to a store and get a replacement drill. 

It would seem that Menards should offer to send out replacement trucks. NQA

I've purchased 15 boxcars from Menards in the last 6 or so months. And only 1 had anything close to what I would call a defect; even there -- a truck problem -- the boxcar works just fine down to O31 switches and curves.

I don't doubt the issues many of you have had but, unless I'm the luckiest man in Vegas, I'm don't think they're systemic. Just wanted to bring a little balance to this topic.

Hoping those who've had problems 1) raise them with Menards and 2) are made whole. In the 2 circumstances where I've asked Menards to "do the right thing," they have, with no questions asked.

- The Other Guy

Since this thread took off as it has, I mentioned taking a look at what they had to sell.  As for box cars and tankers and gondolas, the usual railroad names and several petroleum company paint jobs.  But those flat cars are awesome.  The line of scale cars, trucks, and other vehicles they sell are nice additions to any layout.  Piggly Wiggly?  I've only seen one in my entire life and that was in Waynesboro, Ga.  It's a delivery box truck.  Morton Salt, Mountain Dew, a WWII Jeep Willy that looks just like the one my dad used to own.  I haven't looked at the houses, barns, and buildings yet, but if what I have seen is an indicator, for the prices they charge, maybe a forum member out there with knowledge of the intricate problem this thread has brought to light might give Menards a call.  See if he or she can get to the person that handles the model train line.  Explain what is happening in terms and phrases that make sense.  It might go a long way to The Other Guy says, and I am inclined to agree, is a unique problem, not an industry problem.  I'm not that guy.  I only know how to put a stop to couplers that open when they aren't supposed to, and like most of us, am able to find creative engineering methods to fix issues.  Worth a shot.  They have some really nice stuff to have to ignore because they can't seem to gauge their trucks correctly.  Help them out.  Who knows, this may be a china issue.  We'll call it the Woohan mistake.

Where else you gonna get a car like this for $20 bucks?

And a free Mustang GT too

I'll take the minor tweaks and fixes.

Nice.  I love the flat beds.  One thing I discovered further searching the website, they only sell the 70's style tubular steel track.  Perhaps this might have something to do with the gauging issues?  Just asking.

I've had my share of issues with the trucks on Menards cars, specifically the boxcars.  However, they've been quick to respond to the issues, and I think the cars are great for club outings.  Once you tweak the trucks that need it, give them a good lube, and you're good to go.  They have great looking graphics, and with very few fragile details, they're prefect for packing up and taking on the road.

The 14" flatcars are especially nice, they have excellent sprung trucks, and I didn't have any issues with those.

Interesting comment, GRJ.  My Menards hopper cars do not have spring trucks.  Wonder why the differences.

Flat cars, not hopper cars.  The Hopper cars I have from Menards also don't have the sprung trucks.  The only cars I've seen from them with these trucks are the longer flatcars.

Yardmaster96 posted:

I got on line and looked up Menard's model trains.  Appears since 2015 they've added model trains to their list of hardware.  I also found out for certain that it was the Hardware store.  Thought so.

Hardware store? Menards is a home improvement center with 100,000- to 200,000-square-foot stores in 15 states. It is a major supplier of home construction materials to contractors everywhere it operates. It sells a lot of hardware, as well as home furnishings, groceries, landscaping and garden materials (in a huge garden center).

Menards has been making rolling stock since 2010, and has been selling specially made rolling stock (originally by Lionel) since 2007.

The only reason it stocks trains is because founder John Menard has been a lifelong train lover. It’ll be interesting to see how he reacts to the recent quality control issues with these trucks.

Is the race car drive Paul Menard related to the owner?  Thanks for the updated information.  All the spot i found online said 2015.  So they're a Lowes not an Ace.  Nice to know.  I'm studying buying that flat car with the blackhawk.  Thanks Jim R.

That 14" army flatcar with the Blackhawk looks like a winner...Maybe.  The majority of my military train is made up of 14" Menards flats with diecast that I got on sale from American Excellence.  I'm thinking about adding one or four of the ones with the Blackhawk or Seahawk.  A potential problem I see with the Blackhawk is that nothing is said about if the blades will collapse.  Both the Seahawk and the Coast Guard chopper descriptions state that the blades will collapse so it can navigate narrow passageways.  If the Blackhawk won't do that it will be an interference problem on most railways.

I received a 4 pack of the 14 3/4”  military flatcars on Tuesday.  When I first put them on the track they were a bit stiff, but the last bullet in the item description on the website said 

• For best results, lubricate all metal parts before running

After lubrication they run as well as some of my MTH rolling stock at a significantly lower price.  My experience has been so good I plan on ordering 4 more.

Bob - Did not think about that.  Very astute observation.  I have an overpass i had to build so my grandson wouldn't have to jump over the 3 tracks to get to the walk area.  The gaps are narrow.  How does one find out if the Blackhawk has fold back blades.  I know the real ones do, but we are talking about a toy here.

Steve - I saw that about the lubrication as well.  Thanks for the heads up.

I don't know about you guys, but Menards hit the target with those flat beds.  I mentioned this once before in a previous reply.  14 3/4" translates to 59 feet based on what i've been told about 1/4 inch scale.  55 to 60 feet, based on what i have seen online, is the standard length for an operational flat.  Now before train buffs chime in and correct my spelling, this was one website asking the question, "what is the standard length for a railroad flat car?"  Wikipedia gave me some info on it, and a couple others gave me the same basic dimensions.  Anyway, the scale model is built to mimic the real deal.  The reason I bring this up is because I have Lionel flats with loads, and MTH flats with loads.  When you look at the Lionel flats compared to the MTH, MTH looks like a gorilla standing next to a chimp.  Both cars are supposed to be 1/4 scale, I guess, but if you go by real dimensions, some my lionel's would be 44 or 45 feet if they were real.  The MTH scale, and I am aware that they have grades of scale size to make the cars work on 027 and tighter curves, seems to remain closer to the real thing.  Premier seems to be the real thing, where Imperial and railking are miniature versions of the real thing.  Doesn't lionel have something called Standard O?  

Yardmaster96 posted:

Is the race car drive Paul Menard related to the owner?  Thanks for the updated information.  All the spot i found online said 2015.  So they're a Lowes not an Ace.  Nice to know.  I'm studying buying that flat car with the blackhawk.  Thanks Jim R.

Yep. Paul is John’s son.

Well, I am officially done with Menards rolling stock. I reluctantly ordered another box car during the pickup truck promotion, and what do you know, one set of wheels has a bent axle. This is ridiculous. I think that makes 4 consecutive defective units. It is astonishing that it is literally one set of wheels on every unit, like I cant even accidentally get a good unit. This is simply not acceptable.

Cheers, Pete

For the price and diversity they are a great are bargain.  You get what you pay for and if bad they'll fix it up.  I ordered 6 pieces this morning and I'm sure in the end everything will be ok, everything will be fine and its not the worst delema. 

 Think of all those expensive engines that have to be repaired right out of the box, fortunately I've missed that boat . Of the 150 engines I  have purchased over the last 25 years I only had 1 crap out within my 10 hour break in schedule .

Yes. I know they will swap it out, but here is the problem. A few months ago I ordered a caboose, which was defective. Once I sent the new one back they sent a replacement, and that one was defective too. It took two weeks to get a working caboose. I get that every now an again you may get a dud, but this is almost automatic that I will get a broken item. I shouldn't have to fix it, no matter how inexpensive it is. The waste of time and hassle dealing with this makes it not worth it.

Cheers, Pete

Two pages of complaining about this or that and not once did I see that anyone did the one simple thing if you wanted them to see it  @Menards  now Menards Mark will get a message saying someone is talking about him. 

Gene Anstine

You haven't read all posts carefully, including between the lines.  He's been alerted.

As an aside, I've got some late 90s LIonel that also is too narrow gauged, and those crappy trucks they sure are bears to get apart.  I haven't had any problem with PW Lionel or MTH.

Gene Anstine,

I sent Mark the Menards guy a E-mail message two days ago about this post. I haven't heard back from him.

Below is a copy of my e-mail.

Good Morning Mark,

Presently, there is a post on the O Gauge Forum concerning problems people are having with your freight cars. What steps, have you taken to correct this matter? Thank you for your time. Take care and have a nice day.

Jim Sutter

I didn't send Mark anything.  I had no idea until right now that Mark existed.  Even I had, I had no idea how to reach him.  I sent Menards customer service a nice note.  I'm not being facetious, it was a nice note.  I didn't point fingers or rage against the machine.  Like Jim Sutter's note to Mark, it just brought to their attention that there have been some issues concerning the rolling stock, mainly along the lines of the truck assemblies, and my information came from the O Gauge forum.  I originally just asked them if the Blackhawk helicopter's blades folded.  But when I read that a fellow member had once again had trouble a bent axle, I decided to go ahead and bring this to Menards attention.  Like Jim, I have yet to even hear from them about the Blackhawk blades, much less the truck issues.

I also realize that these types of threads, and do I ever realize this, I've been part of one or two that I started, can ruffle feathers.  Again, had an MTH serviceman chime in and tell all of us to quit whining and go play with our trains.  In defense of every reply in this thread, including some of mine, it is what it is.  One person chimes in that he or she bought a car with rusted wheels or chipped paint, that's one thing.  2 pages of members telling us of his or her experience buying car after car or packages of cars that have the same rolling stock problems, bent axles, stuck wheels, gauges off just enough to throw one off a track, and yes, a cool as heck Blackhawk helicopter that the rotor system could cause a problem in a narrow tunnel, screams "you need to take a look at this."  If Mark is the person that needs to hear this, then hopefully Mark can comb down his ruffled feathers err he have any out of place, and look at this entire thread for what it is.  Evidence and Information.  Not grumpy little boys who don't like their toys. 

Mark the Menards Train Guy may get authorization to comment on the truck manufacturing problems, but he may not. John Menard himself is likely dealing with the issue, and for those who don’t know him by reputation, John can be very impatient and forceful about problems such as these with whoever he works,

My guess is that he has already contacted his manufacturing partner in China, but, given his reputation as a private sort of businessman, he may never share how he dealt with the problem.

As to whether the problem will be corrected, time will tell. My guess is that Menards’ train production facility in China is suffering from the same labor shortage issues that have plagued other model train makers, especially Lionel, in which young inexperienced workers are employed to replace those who have moved on to other jobs.

First I am a S gauger so I have no Menards train stuff. I have purchased many other items from them and have always been pleased. Now back to trains.

I do not know for sure but I suspect trains is not Mark's only job. I would also suspect that they are having all kinds of supply chain problems.

Different states having different rules on what is essential is probably also causing problems. Also it is prime time for garden centers and people can't get out or can't buy either because it is deemed nonessential or in short supply or no money.

Also being in retail, they have employees exposed to public and possibly some sick.

I am not saying quit venting. I am just outlining a few things to think about.  

Jim R. posted:

Mark the Menards Train Guy may get authorization to comment on the truck manufacturing problems, but he may not. John Menard himself is likely dealing with the issue, and for those who don’t know him by reputation, John can be very impatient and forceful about problems such as these with whoever he works,

My guess is that he has already contacted his manufacturing partner in China, but, given his reputation as a private sort of businessman, he may never share how he dealt with the problem.

As to whether the problem will be corrected, time will tell. My guess is that Menards’ train production facility in China is suffering from the same labor shortage issues that have plagued other model train makers, especially Lionel, in which young inexperienced workers are employed to replace those who have moved on to other jobs.

Sorry, but I'm pretty sure Mr. Menard has more important things to worry about, like keeping his stores open and supply chains operating during these times rather than micro-managing something that makes up a very tiny minority of sales.

Even during the Christmas season, model trains take up only fraction of shelf real estate that general Christmas stuff takes up.

Menards is a $10 billion dollar company, they could drop their train line and it would be hardly noticed on their bottom line.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

Jim R. posted:

Mark the Menards Train Guy may get authorization to comment on the truck manufacturing problems, but he may not. John Menard himself is likely dealing with the issue, and for those who don’t know him by reputation, John can be very impatient and forceful about problems such as these with whoever he works,

My guess is that he has already contacted his manufacturing partner in China, but, given his reputation as a private sort of businessman, he may never share how he dealt with the problem.

As to whether the problem will be corrected, time will tell. My guess is that Menards’ train production facility in China is suffering from the same labor shortage issues that have plagued other model train makers, especially Lionel, in which young inexperienced workers are employed to replace those who have moved on to other jobs.

Sorry, but I'm pretty sure Mr. Menard has more important things to worry about, like keeping his stores open and supply chains operating during these times rather than micro-managing something that makes up a very tiny minority of sales.

Even during the Christmas season, model trains take up only fraction of shelf real estate that general Christmas stuff takes up.

Menards is a $10 billion dollar company, they could drop their train line and it would be hardly noticed on their bottom line.

Rusty

Menard, who turned 80 in January, isn’t involved in the day-to-day management of Menards Inc. anymore. His involvement in the train line consumes much of his time, by his choice.

I've bought about 20+ pieces or Menards rolling stock in the last 7-8 years & had a problem with only one; bad wiring for the lights on a pick-up-truck-on-flatcar.  I took photos of it, sent to Menards customer service, and received a replacement soon thereafter.  They didn't want the old unit back, saying it wasn't worth expending money on shipping.  The man suggested I donate it to a railroad club or a youngster just starting out.  I have quite a bit of Menard's track, too & think it is great.   

Update

Got a reply to my email from Ray at Menards.  As for the Blackhawk helicopter flat car.  The blades do fold in case you have a tunnel or narrow area where leaving them in full fly profile would be problematic.

As for my informative email about our forum posts, he is passing that along to the proper people.

All I can do for now.  Hope this helps.  Jim, any news from Mark?

Yardmaster96,

Unfortunately no. 

I couldn't buy one Lionel flat, for what I spent on three Menard's flats (on sale).   So I DON'T expect the same quality, nor the same defect ratio.  I'd only expect a refund if it doesn't meet my expectations; and Menards does that. (I can't even find a phone mfg. or provider that "flexible". "Buy to try" is the motto of the age imo 😯 )

Wanting a replacement before the first is returned is unrealistic. MOST returns require you to return it first.  It's been that way my whole life.

Lets see... what other mfg sends you a new car before they see the issue first hand 🤔  none   And at only twice the price 

It's not like the other mfgs. have never dropped the ball.  I've seen new "junk" from all the bigger makers... who also have many years more experience at it.

Many here are sounding more like the infamous "lynch mob" refusing to wait for the investigation or trial.  Menard's has addressed just about every issue pointed out so far. Why the sudden apparent "distrust"?  

(too many 5am Westerns for me? 😁)

Pay "too much" and have 0 to worry about  

(or is it; Pay too much, and have 0 to worry about? )

Lehigh74 posted:

breezinup posted:

Lehigh74 posted:

Premier is (in general) scale size.  One exception is passenger cars.  MTH Premier cars for example are shorter (18"/70') because a 21"/85' passenger car is just too long for most layouts.

 

Depends on the car and the era. Many modern passenger cars are 85', but prior to that, many passenger cars were shorter than that.

The 18” Premier cars are scale for 70’ cars.  Here's what it says on the MTH site for premier passenger car overview.

The majority of lightweights were 80’–85’ long, which scales out to about 21” in O gauge. Many O gauge modelers, however, find cars of this length impractical, as they require large curves and create long trains that can overwhelm a typical-sized layout. For those reasons, our Premier lightweights are about 70 scale feet in length...

Agreed. And even the 18” heavyweight cars by Lionel, MTH, Williams and K-Line depicting passenger trains prior to World War II are shortened from longer prototypes, which have been modeled full length in smaller scales.

Face it. O gauge manufacturers rely on 18” “scale” cars as a compromise — a necessary one. It doesn’t bother me. Especially since I don’t have room for 150-inch diameter curves in my house.

Adriatic posted:

I couldn't buy one Lionel flat, for what I spent on three Menard's flats (on sale).   So I DON'T expect the same quality, nor the same defect ratio.  I'd only expect a refund if it doesn't meet my expectations; and Menards does that. (I can't even find a phone mfg. or provider that "flexible". "Buy to try" is the motto of the age imo 😯 )

Wanting a replacement before the first is returned is unrealistic. MOST returns require you to return it first.  It's been that way my whole life.

Lets see... what other mfg sends you a new car before they see the issue first hand 🤔  none   And at only twice the price 

It's not like the other mfgs. have never dropped the ball.  I've seen new "junk" from all the bigger makers... who also have many years more experience at it.

Many here are sounding more like the infamous "lynch mob" refusing to wait for the investigation or trial.  Menard's has addressed just about every issue pointed out so far. Why the sudden apparent "distrust"?  

(too many 5am Westerns for me? 😁)

Pay "too much" and have 0 to worry about  

(or is it; Pay too much, and have 0 to worry about?  

For what it’s worth I am a big fan of Menards. I live close to several of them and I hate that these issues are presenting themselves. I just can’t figure out why this keeps happening. They do have good customer service but it has gotten to the point where I am losing faith in the rolling stock. I totally understand that there is going to be lemons every now and then, but this keeps repeating itself over the last few months and I’m at a loss as to why.

Cheers, Pete

My wife and I both work for US manufacturers. Don’t underestimate the affect of COVID-19. Mark the Menards guy may be very busy right now. I can’t imagine him not responding to this thread at some point. 

I think I mentioned this earlier in the thread.  Email, Menards, mentioned thread, Ray replied, answered my blackhawk question, sent concerns up the chain.  I'm now waiting to see if Ray made good, not expecting any reply from anyone else, but have faith Ray did what Ray said he would do.  Until then I will probably buy the Blackhawk Flat car, hope it isn't damaged or defective, will fix or tweek any abnormalities, and run it on my layout.  There's a lot too the ideology that you get what you pay for, but I am sticking with the one that says John Menard is a stand up guy and this will culminate into a positive result.

I fully agree as well with the sidebar about the scale.  I started it, and am glad to see it gained traction.  I just found it odd that MTH version of a Flat car with a load was so much larger than Lionel's.  

On a side note. We are lucky to have a retail store chain like Menards producing New O and HO train products in this day and age of aging toy/model train demographics.  I wonder if N scale products are in the pipeline?  Menards goes above and beyond with  their product selection, and they are a Huge breath of fresh air and for that I'm thankful. My only compliant is I wish there was a Menards store near me! New England/Northeast USA.