I have a Lionel 252 motor and shell without a frame. My understanding is that this was originally an Ives engine. Will an Ives electric cast iron frame work with this? If not, how hard would it be to adapt it?
Thanks,
George
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you can make anything work with enough time and desire. But no, that was not originally an Ive's engine.
The Lionel 250/252 series was modeled after the NYC S2 class electric engine and was introduced in 1926. The 252 had the added manual reversing unit. There are plenty of junkers around that should have a decent enough frame. Just make sure, you may want to identify the motor to match it to the correct frame, there were 4 different motors that were produced for the 252, and at least two different frames, though all of the 8" variety.
post photos and there will be plenty of folks here who can give you the correct into.
Tim
Now I know where I went awry... I have a Lionel 248 motor, not a 252. I found information that this motor and cab were indeed used with an Ives frame. Now, I need to see if the frame I found is actually the right one. It looks too big from the pictures.
George
Ives used the 248 cab in 1928, 29, & 30.
It was painted with their (Ives) paint and trimmed with their trim. It was mounted on an Ives die cast metal frame with an Ives motor and couplers. #3260 forward only. #3261 w/ reverse.
I found and ordered an Ives frame. The listing did not say what the frame was, but in searching my Greenberg guide, it appears to be a 3255 frame. It mounted nicely to the motor, but the cab does not fit. So, now I need a 3255 cab.
George
call me weird but I like it as is!
I got this running. The motor only mounts one direction in the frame. The Lionel motor did not have a reverse, so I had to switch the wires to get it to run the right direction. My only issue is that it is drawing 3.5 to 4 amps and needs 16 to 17 volts. My Ives 1122 does this as well. Is this because the cast iron frames are so heavy? It really limits how many cars can be pulled and I worry about burning things out.
George
that would be my guess...
George S posted:My only issue is that it is drawing 3.5 to 4 amps and needs 16 to 17 volts. My Ives 1122 does this as well. Is this because the cast iron frames are so heavy? It really limits how many cars can be pulled and I worry about burning things out.
George
Uh, no. Something needs looking at in there.
Full cleaning, rewiring, new brushes, proper lubrication, etc. Most of my Ives locos take off like a rocket by 10-12v after they've been gone through and "tuned up"
No reason to be pulling that kind of amp from one motor and one light bulb either.
1122's usually need a thorough going through to get them running well. The original brush setup on these is finicky to say the least.
Course, looking back, you did say this was a Lionel motor. Someone else can probably chime in who has more Lionel experience.
3 to 4 amps is too much for any O loco, usually means something is binding, maybe some junk on the armiture, old grease on the gears and axles, etc.
Jim
Good feedback. That was my thought too. I'm most worried about my 1122 pulling that many amps. The problem there could be the field coil.
This motor in this little electric did not draw that many amps until I put the frame on it. I'll take the frame off and check again. I did rewire it to reverse the direction. I'll post what I find for information sake in case others come across a problem like this.
George
Hey George,
The 248 like the 252 had 4 different motors. As Tim pointed out a photo would help but if you have one of the double reduction geared job's (type 6 or 7) the wheel spacing can be a bugger especially if doesn't have the original wheels with the round shoulder. If out too far the wheels will rub the loco frame, in too far and rubs the motor frame. Had a 248 recently that was rubbing and it turned out that the older style brass cab inserts have a small shoulder right in the wheel travel. The photo shows how close the gearing/wheel gearing is - if using newer wheels without the round shoulder you'll need to shim out.
If the wheels are shimmed out- may be why it's rubbing the Ives frame? Hope it helps...
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John H. Shetler posted:Hey George,
The 248 like the 252 had 4 different motors. As Tim pointed out a photo would help but if you have one of the double reduction geared job's (type 6 or 7) the wheel spacing can be a bugger especially if doesn't have the original wheels with the round shoulder. If out too far the wheels will rub the loco frame, in too far and rubs the motor frame. Had a 248 recently that was rubbing and it turned out that the older style brass cab inserts have a small shoulder right in the wheel travel. The photo shows how close the gearing/wheel gearing is - if using newer wheels without the round shoulder you'll need to shim out.
If the wheels are shimmed out- may be why it's rubbing the Ives frame? Hope it helps...
John,
Thank you. I didn't notice this. I will take a look and will take some pictures this weekend. I need to look at my 1122 also. I would love to get these running right! My prewar Lionel engines are rock solid.
George
Well, it wasn't rubbing. The answer is that it was filthy! I completely took the motor apart and sprayed it with CRC cleaner. It took multiple tries. I had to scrape junk off the axels and spray again. The comm had been burned on each segment. I had to sand the comm down and couldn't completely restore it. It still runs with a couple of amps, but it runs fast at just 13 volts. Much less sparking too. I will be repainting the cab. I'll post a picture when I'm done.
I guess that is what my 1122 needs. I'm afraid to take that one apart though...
George
Awesome! 90% rubbing alcohol works good too but keep away from painted/ink stuff. Unless pulling the armature out another gunk spot hard to get is the armature shaft backside where it meets the bushing but the CRC should've got it unless 90 year old dog hair is wrapped around it! Don't forget to lube that spot either or a squealer is sure to follow....
John H. Shetler posted:Awesome! 90% rubbing alcohol works good too but keep away from painted/ink stuff. Unless pulling the armature out another gunk spot hard to get is the armature shaft backside where it meets the bushing but the CRC should've got it unless 90 year old dog hair is wrapped around it! Don't forget to lube that spot either or a squealer is sure to follow....
Yep, it's lubed. It had some dust and cobwebs in it. There were fibers; not sure if they were dog hair or carpet.
George
that looks great George!
Glad you got it running better. That frame ground may not be reliable. I have worked a small wire up and soldiered to the side of the of the socket and connect to frame or motor side.
Chris
caa posted:Glad you got it running better. That frame ground may not be reliable. I have worked a small wire up and soldiered to the side of the of the socket and connect to frame or motor side.
Chris
My frame ground is working fine, no flickering or on/off issues. The motor is screwed to the frame and the cab is screwed to the frame. The only weak spot was how the light was mounted to the cab, but it seems to be working well.
George
Yea, that's where the week spot is, but it's always good when it works as intended. I hate to modify from original, unless necessary due to age or? I really appreciate the old (usually very sound) engineering of the past.
Chris
caa posted:Glad you got it running better. That frame ground may not be reliable. I have worked a small wire up and soldiered to the side of the of the socket and connect to frame or motor side.
Chris
caa, I always run a ground wire from the headlight(s) to the motor frame, as you stated the ground connections may not be reliable.
Most of my rebuilds (Fantacy Locomotives) as I use small plastic washer on the screws that hold the shell to the frame as I do not want to destroy the paint under the screw head.
I also like to put a cabin light in the shell with a resistor to make it dimmer than the head light.
Most of my stuff was junk before I started working on them.
Found a binding side-rod on my 1122 and cleaned her up like the electric. She works pretty good now too!
George
