Jerry Brown's City of Denver

I was worried for a second Carey, I thought this was about another stupid scheme by our joke of a governor

Carey, that is beautiful!! The cars are noticeably longer than the JAD streamliners, but the vestibules look the same. Will the Jerry Brown trains still take 42" curves? Where did you find it?

John

Just a gorgeous set. Thank you for sharing. Never knew these were made. Sure would be nice to have an O gauge set of these.

I am not particularly a fan of tinplate, but that is an amazing work of art!!!

Hello all...thank you for your kind words 

Steve ... sorry you are stuck with "moon beam" Jerry ... no relation to the talented Jerry Brown model maker / collector . 

42" ....that would not be a pretty sight ....video has the COD running on 80" Boucher track .... one day it will run on 96"..... the train needs wide radius ...

yes it is longer than a JAD COP...

Vestibules at a distance may be similar ...but no these are castings ..with skirts etc ...and quite a step up the ladder from JAD

I was very fortunate to be able to buy COD # 6 last year ... and over the weekend again very fortunate to be able to buy as a combo COD #13 and one of Jerry's Green Diamonds ..photos later .  

Here is a photo showing COD #6 compared to a JAD  COP (& Hiawatha ).

Cheers Carey

Carey,

That is one beautiful set!  Consider yourself fortunate to have found it and to have added it to your collection!

As a Milwaukee Road collector, I'm also fortunate in that I own a Jerry Brown Hiawatha set.  To pull it, I am using a JAD Hiawatha Atlantic locomotive, which I am now in the process of upgrading with a MTH contemporary engine including puffing smoke and sound.   When I get it finished, I will post pictures.

Bob

PS.  On the TCA Members only website, run some searches on the TCA Quarterly, which contains several good articles on Jerry Brown and his trains including some written by Arno.

Bob, I never knew Jerry Brown made a Hiawatha. If you have photos of the cars, please post; I'd love to see how they look compared to the JAD Hiawatha. 

Thanks,

John 

BlueComet400 posted:

Bob, I never knew Jerry Brown made a Hiawatha. If you have photos of the cars, please post; I'd love to see how they look compared to the JAD Hiawatha. 

Thanks,

John 

John,

I will, but it will be a while before I can as they are buried in my barn and I will need to find the container in which they are stored.

Bob

Wow Carey, you have such a good eye and great taste! What a beauty. I hope you enjoy!!

Joe Gozzo

Trainlover160 posted:

Wow Carey, you have such a good eye and great taste! What a beauty. I hope you enjoy!!

Joe Gozzo

Joe, hope to see you in a few weeks. You still have my cell number?

steve

BlueComet400 posted:

Bob, I never knew Jerry Brown made a Hiawatha. If you have photos of the cars, please post; I'd love to see how they look compared to the JAD Hiawatha. 

Thanks,

John 

John,

Still looking for the container.

One interesting side bar is the fact that I purchased the set from James Hall, who as you may know was an avid McCoy collector as well as a  close friend of the late Arno Baars.  In fact, the two routinely shared tables at York.   

After I purchased the cars from James I asked Arno if he could tell me anything about the Jerry Brown Hiawatha set I had just purchased.  He was shocked that James had sold me the set saying that James had promised to sell it to him.  I told Arno I didn't know about his arrangement with James and offered to sell it to him.  Ever the gentleman, he declined my offer noting that the set deserved to be with a Milwaukee Road collector like me.  He went on to say that the Hiawatha set was the rarest Jerry Brown set with only a handful having been produced.  As I recall he said only five sets had been made.

Bob Nelson

Bob, thanks for sharing that story. It's the stories behind the trains that make them special in my opinion. There's a story behind my JAD Hiawatha, which is one of the prized items in my collection. I knew Arno, but not nearly as well as many on here, and I'm not the least bit surprised by what you just shared about the JB Hiawatha. He was a great guy and I miss seeing him at York. I also have part of James' collection, a set of John Daniel PRR heavyweights, minus the diner. 

John 

Man, that is a beautiful set!

I love this forum as I learn something new every time I read it.  For example, using the link provided by Carey above (and now posted below) I just read the TCA Western Division's article on Jerry Brown.   Great and informative article, which led me to another TCA Western Division article on JAD trains, link below.  It was also most illuminating particularly based on my own experience.

http://www.tcawestern.org/brown.htm   

http://www.tcawestern.org/jad.htm

In the JAD article the author refers to a "subcontractor" who built the JAD cars.  Although not listed as one of the craftsman responsible for the production JAD trains, to the best of my knowledge, this unnamed "subcontractor" was none other than the late Dick Mayer of RichArt trains.  In fact, based on my own experience and as noted in the JAD article, Dick was in fact selling "JAD" cars on the side as he sold me a couple of additional Hiawatha cars to go with my original JAD set.  I am not sure what actions Dick Battaglia took to stop Dick Mayer from selling JAD cars as originals, but when I toured Dick's shop there were still a few JAD cars sitting on shelves around the shop in various stages of completion.  No doubt, the late Arno Baars knew all about this as in his October 2007 TCA Quarterly article he made reference to the mixing of talents and ideas between craftsmen in the production of Modern Era Standard Gauge trains.  

Bob Nelson 

If the light is right and I am successful in finding the container, I now plan to take photos of my JB Hiawatha set this weekend.  While you are waiting, I have been digging through and rereading my correspondence with Arno about my Jerry Brown Hiawatha set.  According to Arno, only 3 Hiawatha sets were made and not 5 as I stated above.  Arno said that at the time Jerry Brown made my set his main efforts were focused on completing the M-10000 and M-10005 sets for which he already had orders.  Unfortunately, Jerry passed before any more Hiawatha sets were made.

As most of you likely know, at the time of his passing Arno was in the process of writing the "definitive" book on "Modern Era Standard Gauge" trains. In every correspondence I had with him I routinely asked him when he was going to publish his book.  This gentle email "prodding"  went on for several years.  I would also press him face-to-face.  For example, at York I would sit with him four hours at his booth and we would discuss his life, his rock band, his MESG book and the progress he was making on it.  Concerned about his health, I urged him to stop his research, finish his writing, and publish his book.  Unfortunately, I wasn't successful and he passed before completing his work.  Fortunately for me, during his research he collected the document below on my Jerry Brown Hiawatha train.  

I hope you found the above document as illuminating as I did.

Bob Nelson

Thank you Bob for sharing the background history of your set and Arno's notes ......one day we hope Arno's book will be out for all to enjoy and learn from . ....

Interesting to learn that Dick Mayer was the secret builder of the JAD trains ...very small world in the Modern Era Standard Gauge world ...

Jerry Brown was a very talented builder....  look forward to seeing your Hiawatha set 

Thanks for posting this, Bob--great info. It's always great to learn more of the history of MESG. For what it's worth, I think Arno would be pleased that you posted this. Here's a small part of MESG history that I now have hanging in my train room: a framed ad poster for the JAD Hiawatha, signed by Dick Battaglia. I had the opportunity to speak with him on the phone back in 2007; he offered to send me a leftover ad poster, and I gladly accepted. I asked him to sign it, which he did, and I finally had it framed last year and it's now on a wall in my train room. 

John

According to Arno, Jerry Brown meticulously documented all his work as evident above in the document he wrote about my Hiawatha set.  It is possible he wrote similar documents on every set he made.  Does anyone have a similar document on their Jerry Brown set of cars?

During my first read I didn't catch it but during our exchange of emails Arno pointed out to me that my Hiawatha cars were made in the era before wide radius Standard Gauge track was readily available.  Specifically, he noted the wording in the first sentence. i.e., "on Lionel curve - straight - curve track", which according to Arno was the way Standard Gauge layout builders initially accommodated the new MESG trains needing wider radius curved track than the 42" radius curves available from Lionel.  Does anyone know which manufacturer made the first wide radius Standard Gauge track? 

Bob Nelson

To my knowledge it was Andy Kriswalus of Kris Model Trains. 

Steve "Papa" Eastman posted:

I thought this was about another stupid scheme by our joke of a governor

He saved the state's economy (see the many, many articles about it) - California economy is booming, the state has a multi-billion dollar budget surplus - some joke!  I've always like the City of Denver. Lots of nostalgia, since my very first train was the Marx version. Would love to have one of these sets!

"I thought this was about another stupid scheme by our joke of a governor "

The joke here is a comment like this about the best governor we have even had.  Turned the state around in record time with a super economy and progressive policies.  Bravo to Jerry Brown....wish he was young enough to run for President.

Back in ancient times, the 70's .... if you wanted wide radius standard gauge ... you bought a loop of O gauge ... O72  pulled it apart ...and replaced the ties with standard gauge ones .... trimmed the rails a bit ...worked fine ..but took some time .....running "big" standard gauge trains ...on 72" ..still looks as if they are making hard right hand turns ... glad Kirk at USA Track   offers  87" diameter ...  one day 96" or larger would be nice .

In the 60's Gargraves  standard gauge track was offered for those who wish to curve any diameter ...Thorley Hoople trains were sold with the suggestion that they were to be run on "wide " radius  (1966) 

Cheers Carey 

Carey Williams posted:

Back in ancient times, the 70's .... if you wanted wide radius standard gauge ... you bought a loop of O gauge ... O72  pulled it apart ...and replaced the ties with standard gauge ones .... trimmed the rails a bit ...worked fine ..but took some time .....running "big" standard gauge trains ...on 72" ..still looks as if they are making hard right hand turns ... glad Kirk at USA Track   offers  87" diameter ...  one day 96" or larger would be nice .

In the 60's Gargraves  standard gauge track was offered for those who wish to curve any diameter ...Thorley Hoople trains were sold with the suggestion that they were to be run on "wide " radius  (1966) 

Cheers Carey 

Carey,

In order to make the his "Horseshoe Curve" SGMA modules, Kirk had to create wider radius Standard Gauge track than the 87" diameter sectional track he now sells since that radius of track became the "inside" track on his Horseshoe Curve modules.  As I recall he had to "hand lay" some if not all of the outer curved track on his Horseshoe Curve modules.  But it is also possibly that he already has the tooling needed to produce larger radius track than 87".  

I recommend you contact him with your needs to see if he can help.  If nothing else, he can tell you what to do and sell you the supplies you will need to hand lay 96" and larger diameter curved track.  Contact him.  I know he will be pleased to help you out.

Bob Nelson  

Carey Williams posted:

Hello all

 Jerry Brown's City of Denver (COD)( standard gauge) made from 1981-4 .. 15 of the trains were made (per Arno Baars) . Jerry was the very Baars) . Jerry was the very  talented model maker behind JAD trains ...branching out on his own he built his first City of Portland (COP) in 1976. Jerry's trains are much more refined in construction , finish, and designed more "scale" type then the JAD line pieces. Jerry trains carried a higher price tag and much lower production #'s . (per Arno 25 COP, 15 COD , 4-5 Green Diamonds, handful of Railchief and Hiawatha car sets) For more information please see TCA western division site at http://www.tcawestern.org/brown.htm also if you are a TCA member Jerry wrote 3 articles that are printed within the TCAQ that can be read online . Jerry stamped his initials and production date on the inside of the engine skirt , also rubber stamped his name and serial number under the engine . Visually Jerry's trains are striking with the classic streamlined design . Jerry spent hours on finishing the aluminium bodies as there is no seam from casting to sheet aluminum . And yes as collectors you will appreciate there are variations among the production run of the COD...early and late ... early --found with horizontal lines above and below the windows ...carried on all 4 pieces ...no high tail light on observation ......late no lines .. with high tail marker light so this was a different set of molds and stampings. The Green Diamond Jerry's last train before his passing in 1985) has the smooth sides also ..... additionally the observation has side marker lights . Jerry trains run , nicely lite with wire plugs for lighting in each vestibule , full interiors. Photos of Jerry's COD #13 in motion ....and detail photos comparing COD #13 and #6 ( early and late) . Cheers Carey

 

 

 

 

 

 

Carey,

Here are some photos of Jerry Brown painting some parts for his UP coaches, maybe yours!

Bob Nelson

It is really a shame that we can't keep politics out of our discussions about trains.  In my train room the discussion of sex, religion, and politics is strictly prohibited.