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@MartyE posted:

Is it possible that MTH still might be using some of the tooling and in doing so would lose sales if Lionel announced all of the tooling bought?  Just a thought.  I'm with you though other than if it's a contractual thing then spill all the beans.  The whole "Big Announcement" thing here was a to do about nothing IMO.

During the LCCA presentation yesterday, Lionel stated that they had an opportunity to purchase any or all of the MTH tooling. Lionel spend sometime assessing the tooling and purchased, as they stated, a broad assortment of tooling. Whatever tooling MTH still have in their possession it is because no one else ( Lionel and Atlas) wanted it, not because MTH wanted to keep it.

Lionel also stated that not all of the tooling they have will be in today’s catalog. Okay he implication being that future catalogs will have other MTH products. This is a big deal.

During the LCCA presentation yesterday, Lionel stated that they had an opportunity to purchase any or all of the MTH tooling. Lionel spend sometime assessing the tooling and purchased, as they stated, a broad assortment of tooling. Whatever tooling MTH still have in their possession it is because no one else ( Lionel and Atlas) wanted it, not because MTH wanted to keep it.

Lionel also stated that not all of the tooling they have will be in today’s catalog. Okay he implication being that future catalogs will have other MTH products. This is a big deal.

Still not buying it's a big deal.  It's good that the tooling is getting a second life but the whole "Game Changer" for the hobby was wildly overstated.

I'll take the middle road:  it's a game changer to some of us.  Because of economics or just a love of simplicity, many chose an operating system and stuck with it.  That's why I'm still running TMCC 1 after all these years.  LionChief Plus gave me the opportunity to run the kinds of trains I like without investing in a new OS, so I adopted that too.

But that doesn't mean I didn't long for some of the traditionally-sized equipment in the M-T-H catalogs.  I just wasn't going to invest in DCS.

Now I can enjoy that equipment, and run trains my way.

Jon

@MartyE posted:

Still not buying it's a big deal.  It's good that the tooling is getting a second life but the whole "Game Changer" for the hobby was wildly overstated.

All of MTH's tooling was available for sale. MTH's competitors purchased all they wanted leaving MTH with the tooling that no one wanted. No one could have imagined that Lionel and Atlas would own a portion of MTH just a couple of years ago. Now many of us who were interested in MTH's locomotives but hesitated because they did not come with TMMC/or Legacy can now look forward to owning and operating them with a command and control system that we are comfortable with.  Furthermore, we can purchase these former MTH locomotives with the peace of mind knowing  they  are backed by a warranty of a thriving and stable company.  And this process has only begun. It's a big deal.

@MartyE posted:

Is it possible that MTH still might be using some of the tooling and in doing so would lose sales if Lionel announced all of the tooling bought?  Just a thought.  I'm with you though other than if it's a contractual thing then spill all the beans.  The whole "Big Announcement" thing here was a to do about nothing IMO.

You may be exactly right on that Marty. In order to sell stuff like the tooling there could be certain agreements made right off the top. For example, let's say that MTH sold Lionel the Dreyfuss tooling. It could be that MTH may have said you'll get the tooling by December 2021, or maybe next year, or something like that, which would be why we aren't seeing things like that in this catalog(if that is to happen). Who can say for sure, but time may tell.

@KOOLjock1 posted:

I'll take the middle road:  it's a game changer to some of us.  Because of economics or just a love of simplicity, many chose an operating system and stuck with it.  That's why I'm still running TMCC 1 after all these years.  LionChief Plus gave me the opportunity to run the kinds of trains I like without investing in a new OS, so I adopted that too.

But that doesn't mean I didn't long for some of the traditionally-sized equipment in the M-T-H catalogs.  I just wasn't going to invest in DCS.

Now I can enjoy that equipment, and run trains my way.

Jon

Perfectly stated. Partially because this is me.

RE: The many comments up above. Game changer? Small potatoes? Big news or small news? Who cares? The point is that this is significant news for the hobby and I welcome it.

Last edited by johnstrains

Well again I'm happy to see the tooling get used.  Hopefully there is something more that would interest me like the new Amtrak engines do.  I'm happy for the folks that will benefit from it including Lionel.  While IMO it's still not that big deal I'm glad to see folks excited about it.  It's good for the hobby when folks get excited.  Let's hope Lionel makes the most of their new acquisitions.

Looking at it from Jon's perspective I can see why some folks feel it's a big deal.

Last edited by MartyE

During the LCCA presentation yesterday, Lionel stated that they had an opportunity to purchase any or all of the MTH tooling. Lionel spend sometime assessing the tooling and purchased, as they stated, a broad assortment of tooling. Whatever tooling MTH still have in their possession it is because no one else ( Lionel and Atlas) wanted it, not because MTH wanted to keep it.

Lionel also stated that not all of the tooling they have will be in today’s catalog. Okay he implication being that future catalogs will have other MTH products. This is a big deal.

Let's hope that the MTH subway sets for New York and Chicago were wanted by one of the other manufacturers so that they will live on in production.

As some have stated, the news yesterday affects all of us differently.

For some of us, having Lionel purchase MTH tooling is great news.  It shows that Lionel is willing to invest and they seem to have the money to do it.  That is definitely a positive.  MTH had many models of great locomotives (this is evident by all the prototypes that were in the Cabin Fever Auctions).  For Lionel to add Legacy, whistle steam, and Bluetooth to these engines means that many more people and generations will have access to 3-rail (and maybe 2-rail) models that continue to grow the imagination.

Others look at this as an end to MTH, or at least the MTH as we knew it.  Maybe it is, though at the same time the hobby is moving forward.  DCS still lives on, and we can look forward to what it evolves into.

Then there are those few who didn’t see this news as anything more then the same old stuff.  That is there opinion.  If those few don’t buy anything in the future from this news, then that is their choice.  I can only hope that they can find it in themselves to be happy for those who found this news to be great.  

The hobby is not dead.  The scale is not dead.  We are all going to continue enjoying it and running trains.

Last edited by Carl Peduzzi
@Hudson J1e posted:

Does anyone know what tooling was sold? I read this entire thread and I checked the Lionel website. I could not find the above catalog.

What we know and is in the catalog will be the wood passenger cars, these do excite me BTW, Amtrak Genisis, C Liners, MTH buildings, and fire trucks off the top of my head.

I'm sure there is more we will find out about in coming months but that is what I have seen.

As far as the end of MTH, they seem to be doing OK making the special runs.  I think they'll be fine.

Last edited by MartyE
@Hudson J1e posted:

Thank you Marty. I assume you mean the 1800's type passenger cars? Dang I wish I would have gotten one more set of those cars as I assume the price will go up but I am very happy I did get the Raritan River RR Version that Public Delivery Track offered.

Yep.  And yes the MSRP did go up.  I want to add 2 PRR to my MTH set.  I'm hoping they'll match in some incarnation.

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Last edited by MartyE

Thanks Marty. You never know you may find a set of NOS (New Old Stock) cars at a train meet or train store. One thing I still don't know in all the MTH selling this or that announcements is what is happening with the MTH separate sale trucks (both 3 rail and 2 rail) and the trucks MTH made to fit existing Weaver cars? Is the current MTH company keeping them or has the tooling for these trucks been sold to anyone?

Really cool picture by the way!

Last edited by Hudson J1e

Let's hope that the MTH subway sets for New York and Chicago were wanted by one of the other manufacturers so that they will live on in production.

Agreed.  I keep searching for more Chicago subways with PS2 or PS3.  If Lionel buys them, that era ends, too.  I know Lionel fans would love this but MTH fans find this to be the end of a truly great run.  I am grateful for my MTH collection and I see the value going up; yet I'm saddened because it makes me feel old, as I look forward to retirement like Mike Wolf.  Now I know how the post war Lionel folks must have felt when MPC became the new normal.

I am flabergastered at the price markup on the 64' woodsided coaches....

MTH MSRP for a single coach was $100.

Lionel MSRP for two coaches is $400. (or $200 per car).

Seriously??? A 100% price increase??? Outrageous in my opinion. Wish the molds had stayed in MTH's hands.

Glad I got my SRC cars during the last MTH run of them.

This is definitely not a game changer at all!  I just got off the phone with one of the biggest MTH dealers in the country.  He told me that Lionel purchased the Railking Bantam tooling, some Railking buildings and accessories, and a few other Premier/Railking pieces to compliment their line.  The balance of the stuff remains with MTH and will be made as MTH moving forward.

Last edited by MichRR714
@Prr7688 posted:

I am flabergastered at the price markup on the 64' woodsided coaches....

MTH MSRP for a single coach was $100.

Lionel MSRP for two coaches is $400. (or $200 per car).

Seriously??? A 100% price increase??? Outrageous in my opinion. Wish the molds had stayed in MTH's hands.

Glad I got my SRC cars during the last MTH run of them.

Charles Ro has them for $287.95

Given this hyperinflationary period, purchasing/retrofitting the tooling and the shipping container issues. +$87.95 doesn't seem that bad.

I guess I don't know what shops were selling them for but nick smiths has a set of 5 of the MTH older paint scheme for $449.99

So thats $90ea if you buy 5 MTH or $143/ea if you buy 2 new Lionel. Really doesn't seem THAT bad under the circumstances.



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@MichRR714 posted:

This is definitely not a game changer at all!  I just got off the phone with one of the biggest MTH dealers in the country.  He told me that Lionel purchased the Railking Bantam tooling, some Railking buildings and accessories, and a few other Premier/Railking pieces to compliment their line.  The balance of the stuff remains with MTH and will be made as MTH moving forward.

First clue: “one of the biggest MTH dealers in the country.” I take the first hand account from Lionel about what MTH tooling Lionel purchased. Thank you very much.

First clue: “one of the biggest MTH dealers in the country.” I take the first hand account from Lionel about what MTH tooling Lionel purchased. Thank you very much.

Just finished looking through the new Lionel catalog, and yes it reaffirms no game changer. Some cool stuff did move from one catalog to another but not much excitement here.

The only group of people this is "revolutionary" or a "game changer" for is folks that were too stubborn or pennywise and pound foolish to buy these locos when MTH was making them.

Yes, you would have had to buy a DCS system to run them in command mode but they still would have functioned beautifully in conventional mode, which is fully supported by the Legacy Remote and a PowerMaster.

Now with MTH restructured and Lionel in possession of some subset of MTHs back catalog of tooling, you might get a chance to buy a former MTH locomotive with Legacy, IF Lionel bought the tooling and IF they decide to release it (in a road name and paint scheme you want) for a much higher price.

What's the saying that 3rd Rail always uses in their announcements?  OH, I remember!

         "You can sit on the fence, but all you'll have is a sore behind!"

While I don't own a Legacy command base or remote, I do own the original TMCC and several Legacy and TMCC engines.  I also own DCS and several MTH engines.  Having both systems allows me to run any locomotive how I see fit, and best of all - take advantage of the used market.  Much of my collection has been bought second hand.

Personally, I feel markets are best served when there is good competition between at least two big players.  Chevy/Ford/Dodge, Intel/AMD, Canon/Nikon, the list goes on.  This drives innovation and differentiation and everyone wins.

The only difference I see is that what was once MTH tooling is now Lionel tooling.  Items manufactured with this tooling will contain all Lionel electronics and hardware.  This is no different then K Line tooling or any other tooling sold over the years.

When this is all said and done MTH will be just a memory like K Line and all the others.

I hope Lionel purchased the tin plate tooling as well.

@NYC 428 posted:


When this is all said and done MTH will be just a memory like K Line and all the others.

I hope Lionel purchased the tin plate tooling as well.

How does anyone get to this conclusion from the discussion at hand and on this board the last few months?  MTH has been churning out product almost more so now that when they had a catalog.  Several dealers have reinforced that they are here for the foreseeable future.   

Oh, don't get me wrong I have a lot of MTH equipment , DCS as well as Legacy.  If MTH can stay in business in some way, that would be good for competition and the hobby.

But at some point Mike would have to hand over what's left to the people who are trying to keep MTH alive and reverent.  Special runs are OK for now but long term survival will require some new innovative items for sale.

Last edited by NYC 428
@MichRR714 posted:

Mike retained all of the tinplate as far as I know.. Also since MTH is still in business and making trains with a whole bunch of tooling that they retained it might be a while before they are a memory

A company that calls itself MTH is still in business, but it is a far different and smaller company than it was two years ago. Every latest news release is another announcement of MTH getting smaller.

If there is an analogy here it may be this: Robert E Lee surrender at Appomattox in April 1865 did not mean the immediate end of the Civil War. The war dragged on a few more months before all the remaining Confederate Armies surrendered.  However, everyone who was there at Appomattox knew exactly what Lee's surrender represented and that the war was essentially over. MTH selling a broad selection of it's tooling to Lionel is MTH's Appomattox.

@MartyE posted:

How does anyone get to this conclusion from the discussion at hand and on this board the last few months?  MTH has been churning out product almost more so now that when they had a catalog.  Several dealers have reinforced that they are here for the foreseeable future.   

I'm sure it seems that way if that is what you want to believe but every news release from MTH is about another piece of the company being sold off or closed down.  MTH is on a slow path downward. 

We will know in a year or two.

If there is an analogy here it may be this: Robert E Lee surrender at Appomattox in April 1865 did not mean the immediate end of the Civil War. The war dragged on a few more months before all the remaining Confederate Armies surrendered.  However, everyone who was there at Appomattox knew exactly what Lee's surrender represented and that the war was essentially over. MTH selling a broad selection of it's tooling to Lionel is MTH's Appomattox.

More analogies to war...  I thought this was supposed to be a "happy day" where everyone get's what they wanted (Legacy MTH engines, continued production of DCS).  Incessantly rubbing peoples noses in it is the tack some people take I suppose.

I'm sure it seems that way if that is what you want to believe but every news release from MTH is about another piece of the company being sold off or closed down.  MTH is on a slow path downward.

We will know in a year or two.

Apparently you aren't subscribed to their newsletter.  They've probably made 100 announcements since the one announcing Mike's retirement, all about new road names and special runs.  There have been two "downsizing" announcements, the original about the planned retirement and potential sale of the company and then the one about the selling of a subset of tooling to Atlas. 

We'll know what exactly in a year or two?

I, for one, am sorry that I jumped to the wrong conclusion based on the speculation here.  We can guess all we want about MTH's future.  But what is in front of us are new releases and special runs by special MTH dealers and that continues to excite MTH fans.  Plus Atlas O is the new MTH brother in PS 3 that will be here tomorrow and their stuff is awesome.   I am grateful for Mr. Muffins Trains, Pat's trains and and Public Delivery Track who aren't afraid to share direct facts with us regarding MTH news.

A company that calls itself MTH is still in business, but it is a far different and smaller company than it was two years ago. Every latest news release is another announcement of MTH getting smaller.

If there is an analogy here it may be this: Robert E Lee surrender at Appomattox in April 1865 did not mean the immediate end of the Civil War. The war dragged on a few more months before all the remaining Confederate Armies surrendered.  However, everyone who was there at Appomattox knew exactly what Lee's surrender represented and that the war was essentially over. MTH selling a broad selection of it's tooling to Lionel is MTH's Appomattox.

Do you use scented smoke fluid?  If so I'd like to know what kind.

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