JULY 15th, 2021 - LIONEL PURCHASE OF MTH TOOLING ... PLEASE READ!

@Mike H Mottler posted:

The O-gauge train hobby market expanded for a while to a marketplace with too many players; now it is shrinking -- more or less to "the last man standing," Lionel. I'm a Lionel loyalist, so this announcement is good news to me and to my extended family. They will inherit my collection of Lionel trains some day (but not too soon, I hope)!

Mike Mottler    LCCA 12394

@HiramO posted:

I for one find this quite exciting. As a TMCC operating person, I have noted many, many MTH locos that I envied. If Lionel plays this right it will cost me a lot of money...

Jan

Buying a piece of MTH will be a great investment for Lionel

@Madockawando posted:

Buying a piece of MTH will be a great investment for Lionel

I agree completely. At least now our Lionel control system will be installed in a locomotive that arrives with the correct paint scheme and without pieces lying loose in the box.

But at what price?

Competition is good for business and the hobby is seeing that competition fade.

@Mike H Mottler posted:

The O-gauge train hobby market expanded for a while to a marketplace with too many players; now it is shrinking -- more or less to "the last man standing," Lionel. I'm a Lionel loyalist, so this announcement is good news to me and to my extended family. They will inherit my collection of Lionel trains some day (but not too soon, I hope)!

Mike Mottler    LCCA 12394

It has been an interesting evolution. Now there is  a large Lionel and a group of much smaller O gauge companies.

@Craignor posted:

It would be interesting to see the Z-4000 in the catalog tomorrow.

Why the ZWL works fine. There’s no need for Lionel to buy a Z 4000 tooling or electronics.

@Rail Dude posted:

Competition is good for business and the hobby is seeing that competition fade.

Dude,

That 'fade' began almost 20 years ago now.  We're fortunate to see Menard's come in and take a shot a turning it around after too many sources have left, scaled back, or fallen apart.

On the other hand the only real way to get the same level of competition back that we had before the fade began is to recruit more interested hobbyists in order to re-expand the market.  It looks like Lionel is hoping to do so with this purchase, although it may be more a case of trying to stop the continued shrink.

Are we doing everything we can to help make a re-expansion happen?

Mike

@superwarp1 posted:

Does Lionel get access to MTH factories?  That’s the real game changer if so, as Lionel’s current Chinese factory suck.

superwarp,

How do you know it's the factory that sucks?  Quality takes a lot of work.  With the exception of those in Japan from the 50's through the 80's (all largely having a built-in cultural commitment to perfection), most factories only produce junk if their customers agree to accept junk.

There's enough blame here to spread around to all parties in the design-procurement-manufacturing chain.

Mike

@Rail Dude posted:

I agree completely. At least now our Lionel control system will be installed in a locomotive that arrives with the correct paint scheme and without pieces lying loose in the box.

But at what price?

Competition is good for business and the hobby is seeing that competition fade.

Huh? Do you think Lionel would subcontract the locomotives out to MTH? I'm guessing they acquired the Santa Fe Blue Goose tooling, unfortunately their 4-8-4 was painted much more in the Girls Train color pallette then close to actual Blue Goose colors. Superman and Batman are fantasy items yet they refrain from pint tights and yellow or green capes right? In any case it will be an interesting catalog update. Clearly MTH realized selling tooling at some price is worth more then scrapping it.

@Craignor posted:

It would be interesting to see the Z-4000 in the catalog tomorrow.

Craig:

Don't see that happening from Lionel. Maybe from Atlas.

Pat

@BobbyD posted:

Huh? Do you think Lionel would subcontract the locomotives out to MTH? I'm guessing they acquired the Santa Fe Blue Goose tooling, unfortunately their 4-8-4 was painted much more in the Girls Train color pallette then close to actual Blue Goose colors. Superman and Batman are fantasy items yet they refrain from pint tights and yellow or green capes right? In any case it will be an interesting catalog update. Clearly MTH realized selling tooling at some price is worth more then scrapping it.

I have no idea what you just said...

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Dude,

That 'fade' began almost 20 years ago now.  We're fortunate to see Menard's come in and take a shot a turning it around after too many sources have left, scaled back, or fallen apart.

On the other hand the only real way to get the same level of competition back that we had before the fade began is to recruit more interested hobbyists in order to re-expand the market.  It looks like Lionel is hoping to do so with this purchase, although it may be more a case of trying to stop the continued shrink.

Are we doing everything we can to help make a re-expansion happen?

Mike

Mike, I love what Menards is doing and definitely a boost for the hobby.

Are we doing enough? I can only hope so.

It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out. I wonder what will happen to the DCS system now. Will they only be for spare parts now and then that new offshoot of the company is going to fade away? Who knows. Like I said I love to see how this is going to turn out.

As a diehard MTH engine fan, this news is not only not welcomed but horrible.  I hate to be Debbie Downer but if these are Railking steam engines that will only be available with Legacy, as they say on Shark Tank, "I'm out".   Without DCS, forget it.  Premier steam engines mostly require curves over 0-42 so Railking has been my go to.  I'll be interested to find out if there are any Railking steamers left for what's left of MTH to make.   If not, I guess it's EBay relics or nothing.  I hope Atlas makes a strong and long run with what they have purchased in order to keep DCS alive with their diesels.  And will MTH continue to make Premier steamers?  Or are those going to be sold off, too?

I'm looking forward to see what Big L does with the MTH tooling.  As was mentioned above, I would like to see DCS and Legacy work together as one system.  In the meantime, I will continue to use my TIUs with the TMCC brick which allows for operation of all my locomotives--MTH, Lionel, and Atlas--with my DCS handhelds.

This is great news.

Maybe now Lionel can finally get around to producing an Amtrak Genesis P42 instead of that nonsense they did a few years ago with the release of an Amtrak RTR set...

But then again (for those in the now, gladly correct me if I'm wrong), didn't Lionel inherit all of the K-Line tooling and instead of producing the K-Line product - some of which was better quality product (trains and operating accessories) than Lionel - just shuttered those items away into history... and high prices on auction sites when they show up.

I'm hoping for some small and medium sized Premier steamers like a PRR 0-4-0 A-5 switcher , a PRR 2-8-0 H-9 and maybe a PRR 2-10-0 Decapod.

@IRON HORSE posted:

As a diehard MTH engine fan, this news is not only not welcomed but horrible.  I hate to be Debbie Downer but if these are Railking steam engines that will only be available with Legacy, as they say on Shark Tank, "I'm out".   Without DCS, forget it.  Premier steam engines mostly require curves over 0-42 so Railking has been my go to.  I'll be interested to find out if there are any Railking steamers left for what's left of MTH to make.   If not, I guess it's EBay relics or nothing.  I hope Atlas makes a strong and long run with what they have purchased in order to keep DCS alive with their diesels.  And will MTH continue to make Premier steamers?  Or are those going to be sold off, too?

If Lionel bought an RK steam locomotive tooling the likely route is they would end up in the Lionchief line, not Legacy.

Overall good news, BUT why couldn't Lionel say what tooling they purchased in their announcement like Atlas -O did??

Yes, I hope we learn exactly what tooling Lionel purchased.

They wanted it to be a surprise in the new catalog.

This was a no-brainer for Lionel, just a matter of making the numbers work for both parties. MTH simply had a tremendous amount of fine-scale tooling for steam and electrics...probably diesels too but am not well-versed in those. The Railking Line of buildings may not be gone, either, another tremendous resource for Lionel