JULY 15th, 2021 - LIONEL PURCHASE OF MTH TOOLING ... PLEASE READ!

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

superwarp,

How do you know it's the factory that sucks?  Quality takes a lot of work.  With the exception of those in Japan from the 50's through the 80's (all largely having a built-in cultural commitment to perfection), most factories only produce junk if their customers agree to accept junk.

There's enough blame here to spread around to all parties in the design-procurement-manufacturing chain.

Mike

Well, the defects are coming from somewhere.

@Amfleet25124 posted:

But then again (for those in the now, gladly correct me if I'm wrong), didn't Lionel inherit all of the K-Line tooling and instead of producing the K-Line product - some of which was better quality product (trains and operating accessories) than Lionel, just shuttered those items away into history... and high prices on auction sites when they show up.

Some things from K-Line were used.  I think the newer PRR K4s use some of the tooling.  The original Lionel K4s from the late 90s early aughts had a firebox that was too long.  I think maybe the moguls, ten wheelers, or 4-6-4T (can’t remember which) uses a K-Line derived drive train.  

That said, I agree… I would hate to see some of MTH’s great steam (Decapods, Q2, L-3 Mohawk, WM M-2 Challenger, Erie Triplex, GN Z-6 and R-2 etc.) just go on the shelf and not get used.  Or be so expensive that It’s out of reach.  

@Amfleet25124 posted:

This is great news.

Maybe now Lionel can finally get around to producing an Amtrak Genesis P42 instead of that nonsense they did a few years ago with the release of an Amtrak RTR set...

But then again (for those in the now, gladly correct me if I'm wrong), didn't Lionel inherit all of the K-Line tooling and instead of producing the K-Line product - some of which was better quality product (trains and operating accessories) than Lionel, just shuttered those items away into history... and high prices on auction sites when they show up.

Lionel briefly made a few K-Line 21" passenger cars, Milwaukee RD, Texas Special among others. The USRA Mikado, Pacific, 0-8-0, PRR B6 and A5 maybe the K4 are all K-Line tooling. They also own a lot of the Weaver tooling. Pretty sure their made in the USA cars are ex Weaver plus the 60' head end cars.

Pete

Didn't MTH release a Railking L-3 Mohawk? If so, I would love to see that locomotive as a LionChief 2.0. In fact, there are many Railking steam locomotives I would like to see as a LionChief

@rplst8 posted:

Some things from K-Line were used.  I think the newer PRR K4s use some of the tooling.  The original Lionel K4s from the late 90s early aughts had a firebox that was too long.  I think maybe the moguls, ten wheelers, or 4-6-4T (can’t remember which) uses a K-Line derived drive train.  

That said, I agree… I would hate to see some of MTH’s great steam (Decapods, Q2, L-3 Mohawk, WM M-2 Challenger, Erie Triplex, GN Z-6 and R-2 etc.) just go on the shelf and not get used.  Or be so expensive that It’s out of reach.  

@Norton posted:

Lionel briefly made a few K-Line 21" passenger cars, Milwaukee RD, Texas Special among others. The USRA Mikado, Pacific, 0-8-0, PRR B6 and A5 maybe the K4 are all K-Line tooling. They also own a lot of the Weaver tooling. Pretty sure their made in the USA cars are ex Weaver plus the 60' head end cars.

Pete

On my personal preference list would be for Lionel to produce the 21-inch Bombardier Commuter Coaches that K-Line did that aren't as stubby looking as the 19-inch ones that MTH did, but I digress

@Paul Kallus posted:

...MTH simply had a tremendous amount of fine-scale tooling for steam and electrics...

Electrics! Forgot about those.  PRR DD1, BB1, FF1, FF2, L5, and P5a plus the NH EP-3, EF-3b, EF set, and others!

I’m not sure that I agree with this announcement meaning a reduction in competition. My head has been in a different place the last few months so I’m a little fuzzy on details, but if I remember the bits I’ve gleaned from various threads, there are a number of pieces to this puzzle...

1. I believe MTH said that there would be an “MTH entity” which would handle maintenance and development of DCS (I thought that included the Z4000 - not sure)
2. there was to be another “MTH entity” which would still produce certain MTH engines/rolling stock
3. Atlas purchased some MTH tooling that they will produce - the engines will have DCS
4. and now, Lionel has purchased some MTH tooling that they will produce - the engines will have Legacy/TMCC

So, assuming I am remembering all this correctly, while there won’t be one major competitor (aka MTH), there will be a several pieces which may be greater than the sum of the pieces.

P.S. and I hope Lionel got the tooling for the CP Royal Hudson and the produce one in the short term!!!

Maybe the catalog will have a list of what tooling was purchased from MTH. As much as I like the anticipation and wondering of what will be in the catalog, I would like to know if Lionel even has the tooling for something before we start speculating when they will make the thing. It does no one any good to think "they will catalog L3/L4 Mohawks with Legacy this time around" only to find out years later that they don't have that tooling. Did I just reveal what I want most out of this???

If this news makes anyone happy, I'm glad for them and good luck. Not meaning to rain on anyone's parade, just giving my two cents...

Personally, it means nothing to me.

People looking for USA-made craftsmanship, quality and competition...we have a place for you at our prewar table.

I don't see the excitement...my prewar switchers are all 79 to 82 years old...they can all easily make it for another 79 to 82 years. The new stuff will last how many years and will the new products be supported as far as out-of-warranty repairs? Weren't there topics about this? Lionel Support: Out of Warranty Repairs not being taken at this time | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum (ogaugerr.com)

Tom

@Amfleet25124 posted:

On my personal preference list would be for Lionel to produce the 21-inch Bombardier Commuter Coaches that K-Line did that aren't as stubby looking as the 19-inch ones that MTH did, but I digress

In Tri-Rail colors!!!!

@Harry's Trains posted:

Maybe the catalog will have a list of what tooling was purchased from MTH. As much as I like the anticipation and wondering of what will be in the catalog, I would like to know if Lionel even has the tooling for something before we start speculating when they will make the thing. It does no one any good to think "they will catalog L3/L4 Mohawks with Legacy this time around" only to find out years later that they don't have that tooling. Did I just reveal what I want most out of this???

After this week, Lionel never mentions MTH again.

In the presentation today, they rarely if at all identified what was MTH.

@Paul Kallus posted:

This was a no-brainer for Lionel, just a matter of making the numbers work for both parties. MTH simply had a tremendous amount of fine-scale tooling for steam and electrics...probably diesels too but am not well-versed in those. The Railking Line of buildings may not be gone, either, another tremendous resource for Lionel

Why can I see menards making railking buildings?

@Csxcellent posted:

Why can I see menards making railking buildings?

From the presentation today it looks like Railking buildings are part of Lionel’s purchase of MTH tooling

@Craignor posted:

It would be interesting to see the Z-4000 in the catalog tomorrow.

To what possible purpose and to what end?   

So... does this mean Lionel won?

Actually, I'm not a brand loyalist. In fact, I think it's sad that MTH has been (still being) parted out. Over the decades I had a few of MTH's products, and I thought them good. I also admired the spunk that Mike would exhibit at times. MTH was definitely an interesting company.

However, as my dad would sometimes say when it was time for me to stop the playing and hit the sack: "All good things must come to an end!"

So long MTH.

Andre

@laming posted:

So... does this mean Lionel won?

In one sense, I guess the answer would be yes.  However, Mike leaves at or near the top of his game.

Actually, I'm not a brand loyalist. In fact, I think it's sad that MTH has been (still being) parted out. Over the decades I had a few of MTH's products, and I thought them good. I also admired the spunk that Mike would exhibit at times. MTH was definitely an interesting company.

One thing I wonder though... How many hobby store custom run Pacific's and RS1's can "new" MTH do before the market burns out on them.

Rusty

However, as my dad would sometimes say when it was time for me to stop the playing and hit the sack: "All good things must come to an end!"

So long MTH.

Andre

@Madockawando posted:

From the presentation today it looks like Railking buildings are part of Lionel’s purchase of MTH tooling

I didn’t watch the vid. I’ll see the specifics when the catalog drops.

@L.I.TRAIN posted:

Overall good news, BUT why couldn't Lionel say what tooling they purchased in their announcement like Atlas -O did??

Exactly. What’s the big secret?

So does this mean I'll be finally getting that LionChief Plus 2.0 PRR L1s I've been begging for?

Jon

@Traindiesel posted:

Exactly. What’s the big secret?

Is it possible that MTH still might be using some of the tooling and in doing so would lose sales if Lionel announced all of the tooling bought?  Just a thought.  I'm with you though other than if it's a contractual thing then spill all the beans.  The whole "Big Announcement" thing here was a to do about nothing IMO.