Just bought a Lionel 700e scale hudson

Richard,

Your warped frame is apparently fairly common.

Try this link for a thorough, but drawn out, discussion starting with the 700E.  It focuses on zinc castings and challenges with them over the years, beginning back in those early 700E days:

     700E 5344 Scale Hudson | Tony R.

Nice find.

Mike

Thanks Mike, I get the following error when trying the link..

Invalid field value for field "content".

I'd agree, flaws and all, that this is a very nice find.  From my perspective it is the most desirable Lionel locomotive in a collection. 

@TRAIN COLLECTOR 2 posted:

Thanks Mike, I get the following error when trying the link..

Invalid field value for field "content".

Fixed it.  Try it now.

Mike

I agree, it looks like you have a 1937 cab on a later model frame.  I can't tell from the photos, but it looks like the boiler front may be a repro.  (On originals, the "5344" is raised, like the date on a coin.)  Despite that, you got an excellent deal.

The person who made the 700E videos was Don Hagar (now deceased).

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Fixed it.  Try it now.

Mike

Now it works Mike, thanks!

@700E posted:

I agree, it looks like you have a 1937 cab on a later model frame.  I can't tell from the photos, but it looks like the boiler front may be a repro.  (On originals, the "5344" is raised, like the date on a coin.)  Despite that, you got an excellent deal.

The person who made the 700E videos was Don Hagar (now deceased).

700E... The boiler front is newer and the numbers look pad printed, so it is a repo. The side rod, not main rod (not sure on exact name) is a repo. Not a big concern as this was a very good price. I just wish the engine was not warped so I could run it from time to time. I'm trying to find a way if it can be fixed. The thread that Mello Hudson Mike gave me discusses zinc pest and differing opinions on what causes it. I'm searching if this engine can fixed (straightened) and is it worth it. I realize I could buy a 700e frame on ebay, but then I de-value the engine, turn it into a Frankenstein, and have a buy a wheel puller, on and on... This might be a left over 1937/39 cab with small window frames on a newer 1939/40 frame with oil port and no serial number, just not sure.. Not sure if I keep this and make her a shelf queen or sell it...

"Warp" is not a completely accurate description of what happens when an early 700E casting degrades due to zinc pest.  What's actually happening is that the casting tries to expand in all directions as it degrades.  This is evident on a 700K cab in my collection that had never been mounted to a frame.  It's larger in all dimensions, and will no longer fit on a 700E frame, but there is no warp.  Another indicator of expansion on bad cabs is that the solder joints on the thin rods running forward from the engineer's side of the cab to the front of the engine are broken, with quarter-inch gaps where the joints had been.

At train shows here in Colorado, Don Hagar used calipers on the running boards of 700E's and 763E's to determine how much expansion there had been.

The warping that's commonly observed in cabs and in frames is because the cab has been mounted to a frame that has not expanded (or, at least, has not expanded at the same rate).  The expansion of the cab, but not the frame, is what causes the "cow catcher" to be pushed downward onto the track.

Is your frame warped?  Or is it the cab that’s warped?  If your cab is good and your frame bad, I can check to see whether I have a spare frame.  (I know for sure I don't have any spare cabs.)

My understanding of what the cause of zinc pest is has to do with the amount of zinc in the alloy. If the zinc ratio exceeds the solubility limit, the excess zinc accumulates at the grain boundaries of the molecular structure and causes the bonds to break down. This general topic was discussed years ago in my material science class and I posited that is likely what happens with our model trains.

i would imagine that the amount of excess zinc contributes  to the rate at which parts disintegrate which is why we see 10 year old modern train parts completely crumble while 85 year old models are very slowly self destructing.

700E has a very good explanation of why the model warps. The discrepant part that is growing is constrained in different places which prevents it from growing in a uniform fashion.

I seriously doubt it is possible to save or repair the parts that have warped. Maybe with heat, gentle pressure, and lots of time/patience but it would be extremely risky with a very high probablity of breaking the casting. I’d say either leave it be until it becomes a liability that will cause damage to the rest of the model. Or just replace the frame if you want to enjoy operating it.

Just out of curiousity, did the auction listing mention anything about the condition? Give any kind of grade? Or was it pretty much a sold as is?  I suspect others are correct, that trying to fix it outside replacing the frame might not be possible. Given it already seems like a Frankenstein of sorts, with parts from different engines, if you want a runner that may be the way to go. I only know about the 700e based on what I have read on here, but since you spent so much on it already (well, at least to me), could it be worth it to have one of the restoration places look at it, see what they think? Even if you get a new frame, there is no way to know what will happen when you take it apart.

The one good takeaway I see from your purchase is the tender shell looks very straight along the lines of the tender frame.

Last summer I was given a 700E from a good freind . The locomotive had a butchered up brush plate and no whistle in the tender so I made a investment in a good used motor and later on a tender pickup roller and period correct whistle. All in all about a 430 dollar investment.

About every so often I take it out of its case and run it to see if the cowcatcher tip is getter closer to the center rail. If you watch the video at the end you will see my tender has quite a bulge.

Nice work on that 700E, Bob! Great to see it running.

- Mike

@Mike Casatelli posted:

Nice work on that 700E, Bob! Great to see it running.

- Mike

Thanks Mike !

@700E posted:

"Warp" is not a completely accurate description of what happens when an early 700E casting degrades due to zinc pest.  What's actually happening is that the casting tries to expand in all directions as it degrades.  This is evident on a 700K cab in my collection that had never been mounted to a frame.  It's larger in all dimensions, and will no longer fit on a 700E frame, but there is no warp.  Another indicator of expansion on bad cabs is that the solder joints on the thin rods running forward from the engineer's side of the cab to the front of the engine are broken, with quarter-inch gaps where the joints had been.

At train shows here in Colorado, Don Hagar used calipers on the running boards of 700E's and 763E's to determine how much expansion there had been.

The warping that's commonly observed in cabs and in frames is because the cab has been mounted to a frame that has not expanded (or, at least, has not expanded at the same rate).  The expansion of the cab, but not the frame, is what causes the "cow catcher" to be pushed downward onto the track.

Is your frame warped?  Or is it the cab that’s warped?  If your cab is good and your frame bad, I can check to see whether I have a spare frame.  (I know for sure I don't have any spare cabs.)

Good info Mike, not sure if the frame or the boiler is warped as I'm afraid to take it apart. I don't want to find out if I cannot get the screw holes aligned together when putting it back together. I may end up selling this if it can't be repaired. The tender is beautiful, no warping, nice and straight and good whistle.

@Ryan Selvius posted:

My understanding of what the cause of zinc pest is has to do with the amount of zinc in the alloy. If the zinc ratio exceeds the solubility limit, the excess zinc accumulates at the grain boundaries of the molecular structure and causes the bonds to break down. This general topic was discussed years ago in my material science class and I posited that is likely what happens with our model trains.

i would imagine that the amount of excess zinc contributes  to the rate at which parts disintegrate which is why we see 10 year old modern train parts completely crumble while 85 year old models are very slowly self destructing.

700E has a very good explanation of why the model warps. The discrepant part that is growing is constrained in different places which prevents it from growing in a uniform fashion.

I seriously doubt it is possible to save or repair the parts that have warped. Maybe with heat, gentle pressure, and lots of time/patience but it would be extremely risky with a very high probablity of breaking the casting. I’d say either leave it be until it becomes a liability that will cause damage to the rest of the model. Or just replace the frame if you want to enjoy operating it.

Okay, so I have to make a choice, let it set and admire it on a shelf. Or swap the frame and run it. I figured this would be my only options, it's just too bad as this is a beauty of an engine. A U.S.A. made piece of Americana that at the time was the very best locomotive ever made from die-cast and from a great toy train company that made it. Also a personal project from the owner and founder this toy train company, Lionel. And made before world war II! I am learning allot by owning this engine, now I need to make some decisions... Thanks everyone!

@bigkid posted:

Just out of curiousity, did the auction listing mention anything about the condition? Give any kind of grade? Or was it pretty much a sold as is?  I suspect others are correct, that trying to fix it outside replacing the frame might not be possible. Given it already seems like a Frankenstein of sorts, with parts from different engines, if you want a runner that may be the way to go. I only know about the 700e based on what I have read on here, but since you spent so much on it already (well, at least to me), could it be worth it to have one of the restoration places look at it, see what they think? Even if you get a new frame, there is no way to know what will happen when you take it apart.

Nope, nothing nada...

Taycotrains, nice Hudson! That is what I want, a runner not a shelf queen. Thought it spend 98% of her time setting on a shelf looking pretty, I would want to run it from time to time. I do see a bulge in your tender, I hear this is common as well. My tender is perfect but the engine sucks...

If you want my opinion, fix it so it runs.  What's the point of having a dead engine sitting on a shelf.  That's a lot of dough, for me anyway, to buy an engine that doesn't run and is cosmetically compromised already.  So why not fix it.  I like the romanticism in your story about the history and all, I say get it running and be happy with it.  Best of luck.

Cheers,       W   

William, good advise. I am certainly thinking of getting it running. I know if I simply remove the cow catcher, she will run fine. If I remove this cow catcher (that came with the engine) , put a repo cow catcher and butcher it up to that it does not hit the third rail and keep the original cow catcher in a safe place.