Just Toys?

Actually, it is a very simple answer, what is your concern?

Charlie

There's no reason why we can't make the distinction between a toy and a model in almost every case. Perhaps some items could be considered to be both but, in my opinion, detailed scale-sized O gauge/scale models (especially brass) are incorrectly labelled as toys.

MELGAR

To me a model is just a high end toy. I'm sure many will disagree but to me if it isn't really serving a purpose, like an appliance, it is a toy of some sort.

As Charlie intimated,  why does it matter?

If it's a model then are we justified playing with toys?

The difference between the men and the boys...

Rusty

They're "Toys" when we own them,  They're "Sophisticated Models" when they're for sale

I don't think the distinction matters at all. It can be whichever fits your personal needs. But that does not mean there is no distinction. If an O gauge model (brass, die-cast or plastic) is too expensive, too fragile, or too rare to risk damage by giving it to a child for play, then it is not a toy. Some pre- and postwar Lionel products come under the category of antiques. Are they still toys? People raise this subject frequently on the Forum. There are other topics that make for more interesting discussion...

MELGAR

Ultimately I think discussing this is just a big circle. Debate all you want but you always end up at the same place.

Just expensive toys that bring us enjoyment and at times frustrations.

The toy's status can change...the Hafner set under the tree in 1938 is a collectible at York. Yet, it will never be a model. A 3rd Rail articulated will not be found under the tree for a 9 year old, so is no toy.  I do not consider objects designed as toys for children, and can be used as such, models.  If designed for adults, models.  When adults collect toys, the color is GRAY, so our world is very gray.

Love the clause "our world is very gray" and I would add many different shades of that. I enjoy my "toys" and cannot afford high-end "models", and I probably would be fearful to operate a 10-15K Fulgurex for the same reason I would never own a Rolex or any expensive Swiss watch!

I have a Marx 666 train and the light bulb has burned out. I am looking for a replacement. Any suggestions as to what would be a good replacement and where to get it.

Depends on the context.  Some model train manufacturers and hobby shops advise model trains aren't toys because (1) they want to make clear that they are not made for rough handling and (2) they don't want small children getting hurt/injured by sharp edges, electrical hazards,  or breaking off and potentially ingesting small detail parts.  

oh here we go again........ I believe it is all about the fear of being labeled as an adult playing with a toy.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=...en2PFlUt&index=1

It depends on your standards. If you accept a 225 Lionel steam engine as a model, it is a model.  St. Charles Works makes models as do a limited number of O scale manufacturers.  John

Don't see this as an existential question I need to grapple with when so many other pressing issues exist in life .  My trains aren't appliances, a sport or works of art or anything other than a source of aesthetic pleasure and play, so I guess they are adult toys to me.  

It is essentially a relativistic issue. Just reading about those 10K+ Fulgurex engines made me reconsider which were toys and which were models. The choice is ultimately in the eyes of the owner.

When a maker such as Fulgurex produces a very limited run of literally hand built high quality models, some actually documented as low as 25, and they are all presold before they are completed at a five-figure price, we may conclude these are VERY expensive adult toys or museum quality models. Your choice.

If you put it on the shelf and just display it,  it's a model. If you take it down and run it then it becomes a toy

Very interesting comments everyone. Being a collector of tinplate and postwar, a two rail operator, and an occasional high end brass buyer, they are all toys to me. However, more importantly, each one is a memory of a person, time or place. My most valuable piece is the one owned by my Dad or the one my Mom helped me to buy. Someday I hope to create a room of trains all in floor to ceiling dispaly cases and as I spin around on my office chair, I will see nothing but a kaleidoscope of trains. Miketg

(This time 🙃)

I'll contend firstly that they are all models.

A representation of an object or situation; real, or fictional.

A model may make a good toy, or a bad one.

A bad toy lacks pleasurable interaction.

In the end, trains are good toys.

          🚂🚃🚃🚃💨

If it belongs to you, you can label it what you want to. I see all of my trains as toys, some have never been on the rails unless for testing at the manufacturer, others have many miles on them. They all entertain me, whether it be in repair or in running,or just looking pretty on the shelf.

Ray

@Hawk-i posted:

I have a Marx 666 train and the light bulb has burned out. I am looking for a replacement. Any suggestions as to what would be a good replacement and where to get it.

Here ya go:

Have fun!  

Mitch 

It's 2005 here all over again.

- Crank

We all need recreation, and anything that we don't use for survival is really a toy - golf clubs, hobby cars, firearms that aren't for protection or to put food on the table, etc.  I'm not ashamed to be "playing with toys".  

Unless a model is being used for scientific, business, or educational purposes, it's really a toy.  

@M. Mitchell Marmel posted:

Here ya go:

Have fun!  

Mitch 

Have you looked into LED bulbs?  No heat, less current, and longer lasting.

It’s a toy until I paid for it, then I realized after why did I pay so much for a toy that breaks down so often.

MANY THANKS to all for your responses! My trains are, and have always been, my toys regardless of their cost. Never owned a five-figure locomotive and never will, but more power to those that can! :-)

I think one important group considers both one and the same:  The Department of the Treasury, especially its taxing services......

@Tinplate Art posted:

MANY THANKS to all for your responses! My trains are, and have always been, my toys regardless of their cost. Never owned a five-figure locomotive and never will, but more power to those that can! :-)

You don't want to haggle more? 

I haven't broken 4 figures yet... counting the change  

I'dve run the Baja 500 in a Model T if I could've afforded it  (I just don't think an old Rolls, Lincoln, Buick, Caddie, Cord, etc, would make it as far )

You know a "Gomez Addams Moment" likely befalls at least some Fulgrex in the name of decadent fun  🙃  If opportunity knocks, I promise to try to limit myself to a lofty roll over into some soft trees or live shrubbery on my castle layout...

.....Ni! 🌳  ..G'night, G'knights

Why can't it be both?  There is no reason I can possibly see what it has to be one or the other. 

  I have hundreds of models: of ships, cars, trucks and buses, locomotive and rolling stock, and buildings on my train layout.  Most are intricate and accurate.  But regardless, all are toys.

@Lee Willis posted:

Why can't it be both?  There is no reason I can possibly see what it has to be one or the other. 

  I have hundreds of models: of ships, cars, trucks and buses, locomotive and rolling stock, and buildings on my train layout.  Most are intricate and accurate.  But regardless, all are toys.

Amen brother

But if you are a kid at heart then I suppose they are all toys.  

"The great man is he who does not lose his child's heart." - Mencius (372-289 BC)

I wouldn't tell anyone who I didn't know well that any of their stuff, not just trains, is toys. Child's plaything, trinket, bauble, paltry and trifling are some examples from Websters that could be interpreted in a negative way. I've visited many layouts during open houses and tours and I've found that simply calling them models or trains covers things pretty well without any unnecessary interpretation or misinterpretation.

@christopher N&W posted:

I wouldn't tell anyone who I didn't know well that any of their stuff, not just trains, is toys. Child's plaything, trinket, bauble, paltry and trifling are some examples from Websters that could be interpreted in a negative way. I've visited many layouts during open houses and tours and I've found that simply calling them models or trains covers things pretty well without any unnecessary interpretation or misinterpretation.

When visiting with someone, most of us engage in politely allowing or ignoring that person's delusions.  Those who don't do so are rarely invited back.  But this philosophical discussion is not speaking directly to any one individual, and this IS the internet, after all.

@Mallard4468 posted:

We all need recreation, and anything that we don't use for survival is really a toy  ...., firearms that aren't for protection or to put food on the table, etc.   

You made up your own definition out of the blue, but you really lost all credibility with this ridiculous statement about firearms. Really, how about a loaded gun that is pointed at you.

My wife sees our money in her own way:

”Any discretionary money used by a man must be for a toy.”

I have two “toy” show cars. And I just bought a daily driver toy: 2020 Dodge Charger Scat Pack Widebody. I love my toys.

I’ve gotten picky with my toy trains and don’t currently see any toys that I “need”. 

A man needs his toys.

Need them or not, we usually figure out a way to obtain them.

Their is a company called CAR TOYS.  They sell and do install radios, amplifiers, spearkers, power cables, and video systems........extra stuff for your car.

@christopher N&W posted:

You made up your own definition out of the blue, but you really lost all credibility with this ridiculous statement about firearms. Really, how about a loaded gun that is pointed at you.

That's a ridiculous stretch - it's obvious that it was referring to things that WE own, not someone else's possessions.  Sheeeesh.

Toyodels?

( and peace returns to the land ..... )

FM: GOOD ONE! :-)

We took a vote on this matter in our house and it was a landslide vote of a little of each.

@Mallard4468 posted:

That's a ridiculous stretch - it's obvious that it was referring to things that WE own, not someone else's possessions.  Sheeeesh.

No—they are things you'd suggest people play with, otherwise they would simply be collectables.

Anything that requires diligent attention to caution and safety in order not to accidentally maim or kill yourself or someone else, is not a toy. I'm all for guns, just not for calling them toys.

To All,

My view is that each person makes their own decision and value judgement on which of their own items are toys or not. This is not necessarily based on a monetary value. To some people a $10,000 item is a drop in the bucket and to others is a lot of money. Sometimes the greatest value can be items that were simply handed down by someone special, or a one of a kind item that was scratchbuilt by someone who has passed away. The most valuable item could be one that a person has built themselves. If you worked very hard to buy an item and place such value on it that you don't consider it a toy, that is fine. If you call all of YOUR own stuff toys, that is great too

What gets my attention is when people take the approach of telling others who don't think everything is a toy that they are "delusional." See Mallard4468 post below.

"When visiting with someone, most of us engage in politely allowing or ignoring that person's delusions."

I still like my trains but I'm not as enthusiastic as I once was, but if I were to look at it strictly from a $$$ standpoint I would say a $100 and up engine or passenger train or car, is not simply a toy.  All but a couple of pieces are things I would not hand over to my grandsons.  Maybe that's a good enough definition  for me...It's a toy if I let my grandsons play with and handle them.

@christopher N&W posted:

No—they are things you'd suggest people play with, otherwise they would simply be collectables.

Anything that requires diligent attention to caution and safety in order not to accidentally maim or kill yourself or someone else, is not a toy. I'm all for guns, just not for calling them toys.

 

To All,

My view is that each person makes their own decision and value judgement on which of their own items are toys or not. This is not necessarily based on a monetary value. To some people a $10,000 item is a drop in the bucket and to others is a lot of money. Sometimes the greatest value can be items that were simply handed down by someone special, or a one of a kind item that was scratchbuilt by someone who has passed away. The most valuable item could be one that a person has built themselves. If you worked very hard to buy an item and place such value on it that you don't consider it a toy, that is fine. If you call all of YOUR own stuff toys, that is great too

What gets my attention is when people take the approach of telling others who don't think everything is a toy that they are "delusional." See Mallard4468 post below.

"When visiting with someone, most of us engage in politely allowing or ignoring that person's delusions."

Sorry that your feelings are hurt and that you can't admit that a grown man plays with toys.

@Mallard4468 posted:

Sorry that your feelings are hurt and that you can't admit that a grown man plays with toys.

Let's be clear, my feelings are not hurt in the least that you play with toys. I thought I made that clear in my earlier post.

But in addition, I'd say that especially with kids reading this forum, the suggestion that guns are toys to play with is irresponsible.

@christopher N&W posted:

But in addition, I'd say that especially with kids reading this forum, the suggestion that guns are toys to play with is irresponsible.

Kids don’t drive my cars. They are all toys. And yes, care must be taken when operating 400+ horsepower on public roads.

”Collectibles” are just a euphemism for toys. Men need their toys.

@TM Terry posted:

when operating 400+ horsepower on public roads.

Do you go vrooooooooom?

@christopher N&W posted:

Do you go vrooooooooom?

If it’s a toy, men gotta play with it!

TM TERRY: A train collector friend once sold Cadillacs and on two occasions we took out a couple of CTS-V's to go to lunch. They are much more luxurious and comfortable than a Corvette with the same large turbo engine. Top speed 185, twin Brembo brake cylinders on each wheel with multi-perforated discs, Recaro race seats, multiple surround sound Bose speakers and special windshield wipers for high speed use. Got one up to 90 per in just a few seconds on the interstate - awesome response! Computer controlled electronic braking system gives them amazing handling on curves! Luxury, power, speed and super handling all in one package!

@TM Terry posted:

If it’s a toy, men gotta play with it!

As long as You do You, I think we'd all be okay with that.

@christopher N&W posted:

Do you go vrooooooooom?

If I'm doing it right, I just might 

But more likely I'd add some screetch noises to my stops

Being a toy doesn't negate responsible application of fun; it only notes it isn't a necessity. There may be legitimate need for a model in a plan, experiment, etc.. Without legitimate need, it is a toy by nature. 

Note in my view it has nothing to do with respecting the word "model" until we are actually talking about the pro and scratch modelers doing frame up originals at master levels. At that point you aren't likely to be concerned with what others think anyhow; rightly so.  We aren't the real modelers, they are  

If you pay for your model, you buy toys. 

We usually think of toys as thing made for children to play with, despite the phrase "men and their toys". I think that phrase crosses over into metaphor. We start to call things that bring grown men pleasure "toys", like boats, cars, and motorcycles. It's funny, unless you were very rich, the idea that a working man could have expensive things that had no useful purpose would have been unimaginable even a few generations ago. We are really a very wealthy society with disposable income undreamed of in the past.

I have inexpensive o gauge prewar tinplate. These were made as toys and and remain toys. Modern one thousand dollar model trains are only toys in the sense that sports cars are toys- metaphorically.

Well that is only my opinion, but it seems like a good definition. Made for children to play with- toys. Made for adults to play with- "toys".

Adriatic,

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

People do build models and people do buy models. A model is only a representation. It could be made of paper, clay, plastic or any material. Architects build models, or used to, that didn't include structural inside components  or anything. A model could be devoid of detail whatsoever. If one wants to call an MTH Railking K4 a model that is fine, the only thing left is to measure and discuss the accuracy and attributes of the model compared to the prototype. It'll be a matter of fact discussion. The people who are building the models Art is discussing are professional model builders. That you did not build the model does not disqualify something from being a model. I may be misunderstanding something you are saying also, but the fact that money has been exchanged to buy a model does not disqualify it from being a model.

Will, great response.