K-Line Aluminum Pass. Cars??

Weakness is a problem (as well as making any machining process a bit delicate), but no one will be allowed close enough to mine to even touch it!  I am sending the faux lounge car (Nice term, I had been thinking it was a ripoff, now I feel better about it), the chair car will work, but the windows already present on the lower level seems to complicate duplicating the Kachina cafe.  Since K-Line was kind enough to provide a correct car number--575--and an accurately labeled box, it just seems to make sense to use the superfluous diner car.  Some of the diner interior can be used in constructing parts of the lounge interior.  If it gets garbaged no great loss. 

 

We do plan to keep all the set up details for additional cars.  Ted has quoted me an incredibly low estimate for the first car and an even more attractive one for each succeeding car.  I don't want to put him on the spot yet and won't mention them until the job has actually be done successfully.

 

I enjoy the fiddling, so I have done all the disassembly and will redo the interior and reassembly.  In fact I really got the bug from reading about the interior detailing kit for Walthers HO versions.  The lounge car with all its windows makes an ideal candidate for this treatment on the K-Line cars. 

 

I know that making this conversion will prod Third Rail to hasten the production of their cars (Murphy's Law as usual), but I just have an irrational fondness for those gleaming 21-inchers.  In fact, while I know they are far more realistic, I am still a bit disappointed in the appearance of the Third Rail Super Chief cars.  At the prices I hope to be able to secure the conversion almost makes sense.

 

Stay tuned.  Same time.  Same channel.

 

 

Larry....will the finish on the K-line car be protected in some way during the window cutting process so that when complete, it still matches the original cars? 

 

Alan

Larry

When you look at the K-Line Vista Dome car the windows in the top of the car are not the same size as the the side windows. I noticed that the mock up with the "BLUE TAPE" they will be.

I also note that K-Line left less metal between windows on the top of the car than on the sides of the car.

I am not sure what the thickness of the top metal is verus the thickness of the chair car roof.

You can see that K-Line did leave a wide strip of metal down the center of the Vista Dome car roof. I can't tell if there is any other reinforcement under the Vista Dome roof ribs but you can see something running over the top of the ribs and the center roof metal.

Also I see the flutes in the aluminum roof of the K-Line chair car and wonder if the flutes are solid or hollow? If hollow they probably would need to be filled, if solid seems that probably would help the strength of the ribs.

Intresting project you have therte.

 

 

We will see.  To be honest, when I read his quote I was floored and am only now beginning to consider these rational questions.  In some ways my poor car has become the sacrificial lamb, but that isn't such a distance from simply being superfluous.

 

OK has decades of experence working with aluminum extrusions.  They are producing (or about to produce) a similar car for the Southern RR Sun Lounge. I remember as a child reading about Herkimer and OK passenger cars.  I could never afford them.  Finally I will have one and my El Capitan will have a legitimate lounge car.  Either a pristine near-scale model of one or (heaven forbid) a near-scale model of a lounge car damaged in a horrendous RR accident.

No reason that the exterior finish would be damaged.  The car body must be clamped, but I have found that cardboard and wood clamps do not damage anodized or polished finishes.  It is possible that K-Line plated the aluminum, in which case there is a slight danger of tearing the plated film near the machine cuts.

 

I will have to take another look at the OK extrusions.  My initial perception was that they were not quite as accurate as Mac Shops or even K-Line.

From Pops:

 

I also note that K-Line left less metal between windows on the top of the car than on the sides of the car.

 

Are you sure that dome is metal?  Most domes on these kinds of cars are plastic injection-molded.

Bob the vista dome is not with me right now so I can't say if it is plastic or not.
Lookimg very clpse at the ribs on the vista doam it looks like rivits or bolts going over the top of the ribs and if you follow them down the side of the car they extend down to the smooth horz line on the car side. This makes me think that it very well maybr plastic due to the level of detail.

 

I am surprised at how poor K-Line did the windows on the dome verses the cae sides.

Pops,

We are discussing two different lounge cars.  Yours was constructed initially for the El Capitan (1954 I believe) but moved to the Chief when the Budd Hi Level cars were purchased.  K Line never really made an attempt at a true lounge car for the hi level cars--although they did include a second diner in a box labeled lounge car (as a factory "mistake" I guess this should be a valuable car, but not to me).  The pictures of the HO model are of a recent Walthers interpretation and apparently very accurate.  Mine will only be "close enough".  For example mine will only have nine windows on each upper level and roof where the prototype had ten.  However, it will still be much closer than pretending a second diner is a lounge only because it has a lounge number riveted to its side.

 

I believe the delicate structure of your version would be extremely difficult to duplicate in metal.  All in all I wish K-Line were still around.

 

Larry

Well El Capitan fans, my extra diner is in New York with Ted at OKengines.  He has examined it and the setups needed and the price to add the 29 new windows to the shell will be $60 and around $16.75 for shipping!

 

Some of you prefer to do a chair car, the price for it will also be $60 as most of the setup work is for those curved roof windows.

 

To get this price, I disassembled the car completely.  This is relatively simple, but be deliberate and patient.  You will need to carefully remove the chrome plastic castings from the side as well as the number plates.  Window inserts can simply be pulled away from the rubber cement-like glue. 

 

I reinserted the frame into the shell for support during shipping, but otherwise you are sending him an unadorned aluminum extrusion.

 

OK can supply glazing material, but the actual installation and any alterations you want to make to the interior will be up to you.  I can't wait to see the product.  Pictures will be forthcoming.

That is an excellent price. I would charge twice that to just cut side windows, if I even had the courage to go into that business ( one slip and I buy a new extrusion?).

Larry great price. Thanks for letting us know. Looking forward to the pictures.

I wondered about that, but having a second diner I wasn't too concerned.  Just got an email yesterday and it has been succefully machined.  If I had the skill (which I certainly don't) I don't think I would have the courage, but Ted's family have been in this business a long time and have probably just about seen all and done all.  I am still amazed by the price and the fact it is already done!  Now I need more such projects.  Pix to follow soon.

Larry is he doing the windows also or just cutting the aluminum? Thanks

Pops he is only doing the setup, cutting the windows, and cleaning up the openings.  Currently the customer disassembles, removes chrome windows, plastic castings and the number boards.

 

There is still a lot of work for the customer to do after it is returned:  window glazing and creating the new interior.  I plan to write about these processes as soon as I can after getting the shell back.

 

You may want to contact Ted Brebeck at okengines with specific questions.  I am not an official representative just an elated customer. 

Larry thanks for the reply. I sure hope to see the car when you get it back. Thanks again.

Larry......

 

Thank you so much for starting this project.  This is the one car that I had wished K-Line would have produced so if this all goes well, I will most certainly be sending a car to Ted!  I am most concerned about the exterior finish not being damaged during the process so I am assuming Ted protects the cars exterior somehow during the process....if you can elaborate, it would be of interest I am sure...

 

Alan

The postman rings twice!  Well, actually he just knocked on the door.  Here is a picture of the "new" hi-level lounge car just out of the box and sitting on its trucks.

The photo shows a piece of clear plastic simply affixed to the inside of the car and I think it looks great.  The new windows on the lover level are pefect.  It is obvious those curved roof windows were a bear to do even with the right tools. 

 

Although I want to do a bit more filing and sanding on the edges of the roof windows as they will be so visible, I think Ted did a fantastic job.  Finally a true lounge car.  I am off to do some filing and then on to building a credible interior.

 

For sixty bucks and around twenty for insured shipping we can finally have one of the characteristics of the El Capitan.  Just contact Ted at OKengines.

Oops sorry for the double picture.  One for each eye I guess!

I am truly impressed!

Larry looking very nice. How do you plan to make the curved windows for the top row of windows? Thanks

This set is not on my roster, but I think it's really neat that the windows could be cut so cleanly!

 

Question about the two windows that appear to be taped over in the above picture, will these stay or need to be filled in?

 

Jim

Larry...it looks like Ted did a fine job.  Is there any way that you can take close ups of the window openings so that we can see the details?

 

Thanks,

Alan

Ted inserted some clear plastic sheet inside the shell and it looked pretty good.  I am still mulling over any more elegant solution.  May take some thinking and head-scratching.  I am open to ideas here.

Ted included some strips of thin aluminum that I will adhere over these areas.  I am still mulling over what to do about one window on the other side in this area (of course, it would not be lined up with the existin windows.  However, there is a bar/newstand area that I would like to be seen, so I will probably only cover over the next to last window on the side away from the camera.

I have a macro lens that I have never had much success with, but I will try after I do a bit more finish work on the cut edges.

As am I.  With a painted and detailed interior these extra windows will really pop.  My guess is any imperfections will completely disappear to the viewer.  I can't wait to turn on the lights for the first time.  There is still a great deal of tedious work left on the interior and window glazing, but this is becoming a labor of love!

Larry....thanks for the response.  I think that those of us that are interested in this project would benefit from the close up pictures of the shell and cut out areas BEFORE you do more finish work.  It will be the only way that some of us will be able to decide if we want to proceed.  To be honest, and I think I would speak for more than just myself, the current finish of the car is very important.  I am interested in seeing if ANY scuffs or abrasions have been incurred as well as how rough or smooth the new cut outs are.  If pictures are taken AFTER you have done more work on it, we won't see exactly what is in store for those of us that may be less talented.  Even a closer picture of two or three of the windows and the surface area around them would be helpful.  Good lighting and no flash works best.  Sure would appreciate it if you can find a way...

 

Thanks,

Alan

Larry when you take more pictures can you also do a couple of shots of the ends so we can see inside alond the top where most of the new windows are.

I'm in for a K-Line Superliner 21" Lounge conversion.

Larry looking forward to more updates on your passenegr car project.

Sorry guys, I have been fighting a pesky redirection virus that has conquered my email account.  As a result, I haven't done much on the shell.  I shall try to take some pix tomorrow and post them.

Thanks Larry.

Ok (no pun intended) here are some very raw pictures of the roof windows and inside the car.  Also a couple with a sheet of clear plastic temporarily wedged into the interior area.

 

There is absolutely no damage to the finish either of the outside or the inside of the shell.  I suggest being careful in your choice of chemicals to remove any remnants of marking pen on the exterior.  So far I recommend avoiding Windex (caused some discoloration on the roof).  I tried some instant detailer for automobiles that seemed to work, more on this when the shell is ready for final cleanup.

 

Are the roof windows perfect, no.  Are they very close, definitely yes.  My intention is to highly detail the new interior and lightly weather the cars.  The interior detail should draw attention away from the occasional rough edge, and this is definitely much closer to the prototype than the original diner shell.

 

Perhaps the best way to summarize OK's work is that is an excellent value and a dramatic improvement inthe accuracy of K-Line's El Capitan. 

 

I am elated and already full of plastic shavings as I transform the diner interior into a decent representation of a lounge car interior.  All it takes is a google search to unearth the prototype floor plan and the color scheme for it.  I shall provide updates as I plod through this project.

Those look great.  If the milling marks bother you, you can easily smooth them by hand with Swiss files, or carefully with a Dremel tool and Cratex rubber abrasive rod and discs. that is a lot of work for $65.

Larry very nice. Thank you for the additional pictures. Keep us posted with pictures as you progress on the interior.

I have been taking the file route and that in itself is a lot of work, too. All in all, not only was $65 a fair price, it will provide an improvement even with minimal cleanup and reinsertion of the diner interior. Of course, I am not one to leave well enough alone, so I will have eight other interiors to detail after this one. More news later.

It's great to read such interest in our work at OK Streamliners. It was interesting to cut the roof windows in this particular car. The set up is pretty basic but the material itself posed the challenge. Due to the original manufacturing process the roof ribs ( corrugations ) become harder than the main body which is thicker on the roof than the sides. So the cutter was going hard, soft, hard, soft all the way through these cuts, Add to that the compound curvature of the edge and the curvature of the roof itself. Also as we cut away more material the harmonics ( vibration ) becomes greater as there is less solidity to the material. So some chatter marks in the cuts. Just the nature of the beast. So, don't try this at home. This was a first effort on a K-line car of this type and I felt it came out rather well. People are surprised that we offer this kind of service but it is what sets us apart from the "toy" companies. Larry felt that if he could post this project that others might be interested in having the same thing done and we say the more, the better.

Larry,

I plan to dis-assemble a K line hi level El Cap Diner for conversion.

Please advise if I should follow any specific procedure in order to strip the car for machine work? Any guidance would be appreciated.

thank you,

Bill Pas

Disassembly is pretty straightforward.  Remove the plated ends (4 screws)by carefully prying each away from the extrusion.  After unhooking the plugs to the upper lighting strip and removing one truck assembly from the frame you should be able to completely pull the lighting strip in the upper level and the frame assembly from the extrusion.

 

The window glazing is held in with a rubber cement like glue that remains tacky to this day.  Carefully remove these (I am still not sure if I will reuse them or just resort to traditional clear styrene).  The "Santa Fe" plates can remain, but you will need to remove the number plates near the center doors.  I carefully ground off the back of the pins and any visible glue.  However, it will take some cautious prying with a jeweler's scredriver to finally get the plates to give up and come off.  According to Ted at OK similar pins are available at Wal-Mart as shirt pins.  I haven't yet tried re-attaching mine.

 

The scariest part of this process is removing the various doors, grilles, and assorted detail parts.  I first ground off visible glue from the inside of the car with a Dremel tool.  Each part is located with a square pin.  I found it necessary to solidly whack the pin from the inside (some odd angles ensued) using various punches.  With due diligence I (and hopefully you) will be rewarded with the each part simply popping out.

 

You will be left with a basic extrusion that can be clamped and machined.  OK will also be able to provide some thin aluminum you can use to blank off two windows on each side of the upper level.  He also sells appropriately sized sheets of clear plastic for glazing all these glorious windows.  OK also has access to the builder's blueprints for these cars and agrees the diner is the best base for the conversion.  For others who desire to convert a chair car, I suggest consulting with Ted at OK for his suggestions.

 

I will warn you that your "diner" interior will look pretty plain in the lounge car and begs for at least painting or complete detailing (of course detailing one will almost demand that you do each car in your consist).  That is where I am presently.  All in all a small cost and minimal effort for such a dramatic improvement in the authentiicity of our El Capitans.  Enjoy. 

Larry,

Thanks for taking the lead with the El Cap diner to lounge conversion.

Your guidance is much appreciated!

I hope to take down the diner and ship to Ted at OK this week.

We hope to see your interior modification pix soon.

Thanks again for your help.

Bill