K-Line K-29212 CC-M upgrade (1 CC-M + 4 motors)?

Mike,

There's already a thread (a long one) that's been running on the same topic.  If you follow this link you'll end up near the end -- where "success" can be found:

  K-Line Cruise Replacement in Dual Power A-B-A Set

M.H.M.

Bottom line is, if you install a Cruise Commander M in this unit, you'll want to tether the bridge rectifier and heatsink it to allow for the additional load of the extra motors.  Other than that, it should be fairly smooth sailing.

Ah, thanks so much! I was searching around the forum some but I must not have been using the right group of keywords

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Bottom line is, if you install a Cruise Commander M in this unit, you'll want to tether the bridge rectifier and heatsink it to allow for the additional load of the extra motors.  Other than that, it should be fairly smooth sailing.

Thanks for the summary @gunrunnerjohn. I read through the linked thread as well. There were some comments in the thread about heat sinking the rectifier directly to the frame - seems like this would require removing that part from the CC-M board and connecting it back via some wires so it can be mounted to the frame regardless of where exactly the CC-M needs to be located. Am I understanding this right and is this what you're referring to when you say "tether the bridge rectifier and heatsink it"?

If anyone has some pictures or more details about how this should be done, please share. I want to make sure I understand what needs to be done before I start down this path. Thanks!

Lionel used a tethered bridge on some of their Odyssey drivers. This what should be done with a Cruise M.

Pete

What he said.   That's the tethered bridge, and you bolt that to a heatsink (or your chassis as a heatsink).

Thanks for the confirmation @Norton @gunrunnerjohn. It's interesting to me that the DCDR currently in the lead A-unit doesn't seem to have anything heatsinked to the frame/chassis. I guess that fact leads me to ask why the CC-M needs it if the normal Lionel DCDR doesn't? Or was that just a bad design decision?

Also, where's the best place to buy ERR products these days?

K-Line took chances. Plus a DCDR is rated for 8 amps vs 6 amps for a Cruise M. Stall current for four motors is just over ten amps. I guess K-Line thought a DCDR could survive short term locked wheels. Truthfully how many times have you seen two diesels with all 4 trucks locked up?

Pete

@Norton posted:

K-Line took chances. Plus a DCDR is rated for 8 amps vs 6 amps for a Cruise M. Stall current for four motors is just over ten amps. I guess K-Line thought a DCDR could survive short term locked wheels. Truthfully how many times have you seen two diesels with all 4 trucks locked up?

Pete

Interesting - thanks for this additional info. This set does seem to need to "ramp up" to get moving, even after I greased up all the visible gears. But these are currently the only DC motored locos I have without Legacy cruise control or CC-M, so I'm struggling to recall how a vanilla DCDR behaves in a command environment. Perhaps the reason these locos lurch some and don't start moving until ~RR speed 2 is b/c the DCDR has degraded over time due to not being heatsinked properly? I'm hoping upgrading to a CC-M will eliminate this behavior and allow this set to crawl and run at low speeds like it has done for other locos (i.e. my TMCC Amtrak Dash-9).

I'll upload a video of them starting up to demonstrate what I mean

A DCDR has no Cruise capability. It runs the the engine the same as if you were using transformer handles in conventional its just you do it with a red dial vs a handle. Unplug you Legacy base and run the engine in conventional and you will see see it behaves the same. A Cruise M will perform like Legacy with half the speed steps.

Pete

I wasn't expecting DCDR to have cruise but want to better understand if this extremely lurchy starting behavior is:

1. expected from a non-cruise DCDR in command environment
2. not expected but due to wear of the DCDR itself

I think the answer is #1 but it's been forever since I've run a non-cruise DC locomotive and I don't recall if this is typical behavior or not. I expect a CC-M (properly heatsinked) should eliminate this even when driving all 4 motors?

Here's a video of a start to demonstrate what I mean.

I installed a tethered CC-M (thanks @gunrunnerjohn). However that didn't resolve the lurches. After some more investigation, it looks like the lurchy starting/low-speed behavior is not due to the DCDR or lack of cruise, but due to motor binding. The rear motor/truck on the lead A-unit is binding at a regular interval and one or both are binding on the trailing A-unit as well. My focus has been on the lead A-unit since I can test it without the B-unit or trailing A-unit. I've taken the rear truck off the lead A-unit about a dozen times now and also tried swapping it with the rear truck from the trailing A-unit. I've done my best to get all the grease and gunk I can access off both the worm gear on the motor and the gear box, then added fresh grease (Labelle 106) to both. I've also tried adjusting the tightness of the screws connecting the motor mount to the truck. Nothing has helped to resolve the binding. Am I looking in the wrong place here? Any thoughts?

Forgot to mention - both the motor/worm gear and the truck seem fine separately - the truck rolls smoothly and all the gears spin without much resistance and the worm gear rotates consistently when I spin the motor's flywheel. It's only when they're connected together that binding occurs.

Videos don't seem to be uploading properly - they're all 0s long. Here's a link - https://vimeo.com/573834619

Does the problem follow the motor or the truck? Looking at the truck, you can see bare metal where the worm seems to be making contact with the truck below the worm gear indicating maybe the worm is not on the motor shaft all the way. If thats the case rather than trying to push the gear on further, maybe grind a bit off the end with a dremel.

Pete

I think Pete may be on to something, it does look like the worm is all the way to the bottom.

This sort of behavior happens when you have a cracked worm gear. 

That's a pretty rare occurrence, at least in my experience.  Of all the things I've had apart, I've only had one of the vertical motors with the steel worm had a crack.  I've seen plenty of cracked plastic gears, and even a couple of metal truck gears split, but the worm is pretty robust.

Thanks for the feedback, gents! The problem does seem to follow the motor, at least to some extent. Swapping rear trucks with the trailing A-unit may have helped some, but binding is still occurring. I'm hesitant to do anything destructive like taking a Dremel to the worm gear, but I think shimming the motor up a little bit should accomplish the same thing so I'll try that.