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Originally Posted by CWEX:

Well they posted an update on the 24th...read it here.

Hmmm.....  If he got back on the 24th, and worked diligently at packing everything up and shipping them out, it might be possible that some one might get a delivery today at the earliest.   

 

Maybe folks will check in here and confirm that one arrived and share a few pictures as well.

I was not at Indy but two friends were and saw the Challengers. They reported that they a beautiful models with two minor problems appearance wise. The tender coupler is installed upside down and therefore the knuckle is on the wrong side. The other problem is that there is no whistle cord to activate the whistle. Can't wait for a operations report. Ed

Originally Posted by brasman:

 The other problem is that there is no whistle cord to activate the whistle. Can't wait for a operations report. Ed

Having been on top of UP 3985 many, many times, there really is no "whistle cord". As best as I can remember, there is a cable & rod arrangement UNDER the jacket, that runs from the cab linkage to the whistle itself. Thus, you only see a very short piece of cable/rod that comes out from under the jacket and connects to the whistle valve lever.

Originally Posted by bob2:

Well, here's hoping that works!  I would never buy a model without a functioning whistle actuation system.

Now THAT'S interesting. What do you do on Southern Pacific GS class "Daylights" that had AIR OPERATED whistles (the Engineer had two nice little brass handles about waist height; one for the air horn, and the other one for the steam whistle)? Do you have a small compressed air tank inside the boiler?

What would the rivet counters do if the importers stopped bringing in these state of the art models? I seriously doubt that any of the legitimate buyers of this model are going to pass because of  a couple of minor details, although the steam era is not my choice I give Kohs a lot of credit for getting a production model[100 models per George] to this level of detailing. The Key units will most likely improve on this model[at a greater price of course]JM2cents

Originally Posted by hibar:

What would the rivet counters do if the importers stopped bringing in these state of the art models? I seriously doubt that any of the legitimate buyers of this model are going to pass because of  a couple of minor details, although the steam era is not my choice I give Kohs a lot of credit for getting a production model[100 models per George] to this level of detailing. The Key units will most likely improve on this model[at a greater price of course]JM2cents

When one pays thousands of dollars for a model, the tolerance for mistakes is very small. JM2cents

 

 

Larry

Originally Posted by hibar:

What would the rivet counters do if the importers stopped bringing in these state of the art models? I seriously doubt that any of the legitimate buyers of this model are going to pass because of  a couple of minor details, although the steam era is not my choice I give Kohs a lot of credit for getting a production model[100 models per George] to this level of detailing. The Key units will most likely improve on this model[at a greater price of course]JM2cents

Look at all the wailing and gnashing of teeth that goes on the 3 rail side about Lionel not installing swinging bells and smoking whistles of far lower priced locomotives...

 

Rusty

These are beautiful/highly detailed models and I hope everyone that ordered one is very happy with them.

 

However I have a hard time justifying this model over a similar brass model made by Sunset 3rd Rail ( which even include sound and smoke).  Especially an anniversary edition like my Northern Pacific Z5.

 

What do you think?

 

 

Originally Posted by daylight:

These are beautiful/highly detailed models and I hope everyone that ordered one is very happy with them.

 

However I have a hard time justifying this model over a similar brass model made by Sunset 3rd Rail ( which even include sound and smoke).  Especially an anniversary edition like my Northern Pacific Z5.

 

What do you think?

 

 

I didn't realize that Sunset Models installed smoke units AND sound electronics in their 2-Rail products.

The Kohs is an exquisite museum quality model - the Sunset a nicely detailed good running layout quality model. Side by side close up the differences would be very noticeable.  Running 3 feet away I may not notice the differences as the overall appearance of a beautiful model machine in action is what gabs me.  Each to his own value preferences. 

 

I would like to see  both Kohs and Sunset provide bi-modal DC/DCC electronics/sound  in their steam locomotives like the HO importers provide.  If you were to ask me which of the two models I'd like to handle and maintain I'd choose Sunset.  I have a Kohs K4s along with a full page of notes on how to disassemble the chassis from the boiler to install DCC.  It takes a surgeon's hand to connect and disconnect the valve gear actuator to a second motor within the closed bottom of the boiler.

 

Having seen the beautiful running qualities of N&W Chris' several Kohs Y6b's I'd bet the Challenger isn't a shelf queen.  Perhaps some day we'll see a video of a Kohs Challenger in action.

 

Ed Rappe

Last edited by Keystoned Ed

Delighted that such high-end models are being produced.  Could never justify the expense or hassle.

 

My other hobbies are automobiles and airplanes.  My 1965 mustang convertible cost $200 way back when, and provides transportation to the airport.  A $200,000 Mazerati could do the same thing a bit more elegantly.

 

I occasionally fly a Mooney to pick up my glider buddy.  I can go from here to Salt Lake in three hours.  The Mooney is worth $80 grand.  I could do the same thing in a Cirrus for $600 grand, but it burns way more fuel, and if it gets a door ding, it requires factory engineering approval for the repair.

 

In short, there are choices to be made, and if you have unlimited funds, the choices become slightly easier.

Originally Posted by Hot Water:
Originally Posted by daylight:

These are beautiful/highly detailed models and I hope everyone that ordered one is very happy with them.

 

However I have a hard time justifying this model over a similar brass model made by Sunset 3rd Rail ( which even include sound and smoke).  Especially an anniversary edition like my Northern Pacific Z5.

 

What do you think?

 

 

I didn't realize that Sunset Models installed smoke units AND sound electronics in their 2-Rail products.


They don't but surprised you missed my main point.

 

I'm sure that the Kohs model is superior in detail

 

but $5500.00 is a bit steep for an O Gauge scale model.

 

Would I like to have one; sure I would.

 

 

 

 

Originally Posted by phill:

...

For that kind of money one can have a fleet of Atlas masterline engines.  

...

Phill

And if I were a steam fan I would rather have one Kohs Challenger or Key Cab forward than two fleets of Atlas Masterline.

 

But,  I'm a Diesel/Electric fan and I would rather have 3 Overland SD70ACes than 10 Lionel or 100 MTH SD70ACes.

 

Quantity gets me nothing more than more required space.

 

Richard

Originally Posted by rdunniii:

But,  I'm a Diesel/Electric fan and I would rather have 3 Overland SD70ACes than 10 Lionel or 100 MTH SD70ACes.

If you had both running side by side, nicely weathered, I'd think we wouldn't be able to tell the difference between them from normal viewing distances.  If your normal viewing distance is from 1 feet away on a mantle then OMI would win out.  I have a set of OMI soon to join my fleet of MTH, it would be interesting to see how they would compare running against my fleet of MTH modern EMD's and GE's.   To make sure the observation is fair, I'll have to dirty up the OMI's quite a bit to reflect the real world prototype.

 

 

But,  I'm a Diesel/Electric fan and I would rather have 3 Overland SD70ACes than 10 Lionel or 100 MTH SD70ACes.

 

Quantity gets me nothing more than more required space.

 

Richard, right you are, But I have done brass for 40 years and never ade a profit. it is expensive and easy to fall apart. Like said above, a few more feet away and one can be more than satified with MTH or Atlas masterline. If I want to weather then I don't feel so bad about the outcome. But yes, I'd love to have a few new Overland UP diesel units at $2400.

 

Phill

Mike- I have heard that recent Overland mechanisms are quite good, but my experiences have been with earlier imports.  The gears and U-joints on those older models will not stand up to normal service.  The older factory painted UP turbines are the ones that suffered structural failures.

 

I personally do not care for plastic models, but you are certainly correct as far as the bodies are concerned, and now with the new MTH Train Master, I suspect visually you will have a difficult time figuring out the difference between it and very high end brass.

The Lionel body shell is pretty decent I do admit but my 63 year old eyes can tell the difference between My Overland and my Lionel SD70ACes from 25+ feet away without trying.  The 3' too short wheelbase and 4' too short fuel tank are dead giveaways.  I got rid of my MTH SD70ACes because they were, well, just wrong.

 

On the other hand when it comes to paint blue is blue and red is red. 

Since I do not feel like doing anything useful, I'll call:

 

This is a dirtbag $100 K-Line.  From a hundred feet away you can see the end steps need a little help and the trucks are not sprung.  Other than that, this is not really a bad model.  For right around twenty times its cost, I can get one that looks a little bit better, but I believe MTH has gone 2/3 of the way with his new TM For not much more than $600.  I like Train Masters, but not enough to blow the extra $500 on better looking trucks.  I know how to fix the steps, but am too busy fooling around on forums.

 

Originally Posted by breezinup:
Originally Posted by rdunniii:

My father was a Navy fighter pilot.  I learned from him that boats are holes in the water you pour money into and airplanes are holes in the air you pour way more money into.   And cars can be too, that is why I stay away from all three.


You didn't mention children.

By the time I was 18 I had already decided not to be a parent.  But for completely different reasons.

 I watched a Overland SD70ACe in demo colors sell last week and couldn't bid. I just didn't have the cash. Now if I would have saved for it, it went for a steal.

 If I did have the money for one of these Challengers, I would probably buy it. I guess that makes it easy because I don't.

 One thing about buying the cheap engines, is they come easier. I never thought I'd have this many. I didn't pay that much for a lot of them.

am interested to hear about these as well... bought my first kohs engine just recently.  penny k4, post war version.  runs beautifully, sounds great.  detail-wise i am still comparing vs. pictures and drawings i have of the loco.  i have always like the engine and while not a road i really model i have a nice all kohs pennsy train. 

The Challengers were painted in the ''Greyhound'' TTG/Silver stripes scheme starting in1946.They were changed to TTG/Yellow stripes in December 1946. They were returened to TTG/Silver stripes in mid 1949. The book 'The Challenger Locomotives'' ( Kratville ) has some information confirming this as does the ''Utah Rails'' site. There seems to be some confusion as to the dates this happened between the two sources but not the fact that it did happen this way.

Looking closely at the pictures I see another error. The stack surrounds should be graphite like the smoke box. 

 

I noticed that too Ed. After seeing the photos posted on the KOHs website I went to my Kratville Challenger book to confirm what they should be. I've slept since then  but what I remember is that most of the B&W photos show the surrounds to be covered in soot, which I supposed someone could miss-interpret as black paint. But, you don't expect that kind of mistake at this price level. But, as I've learned over the decades and heard many times....there is no perfect model. 

 

Butch

 

 

Butch

Spectacular model!!!  However, that has to be one of the worst coal loads I have ever seen. I sure don't recall the UP ever loading their tenders that way. Too bad someone didn't review lots of prototype photos.  

 

You're correct HW. I don't remember ever seeing coal loaded that fashion in any UP tender. But, like the black stack surround and upside down coupler it can be fixed. Hopefully these minor issues are not an indication of more serious problems within that are not so easily dealt with. I got mine yesterday (3960) but got home too late to unpack it. Box is nice. 

 

I have yet to see (or own) a perfect model and although I love maximum details and gingerbread on my model trains, I know there are mistakes and problems with every one of them. The more you study the prototype and compare it to your models the more mistakes and compromises you discover. We can only hope there are no major problems that really affect the enjoyment of owning it.

 

PS: Great photo Chris!

 

 

Butch

In the big picture the coal load is really a moot point. It's a subjective thing. I think it looks a little sterile, but some may like it that way.

 

I can't fathom the number of details, problems and solutions that goes into building and importing a model of this pedigree. If the coal load and the other relatively minor issues mentioned in this thread are the only problems with the Challenger then I think it's a fantastic success.

 

I don't have a place to run mine at this time, except on a test stand, so I'd love to hear from someone who has run theirs. It has Zimo electronics (DC/DCC) which is a real improvement over previous Kohs models IMHO and dual speakers in the boiler according to the operators manual.  I'm looking forward to hearing it in operation.

 

Butch

Originally Posted by up148:

In the big picture the coal load is really a moot point. It's a subjective thing. I think it looks a little sterile, but some may like it that way.

 If the coal load and the other relatively minor issues mentioned in this thread are the only problems with the Challenger then I think it's a fantastic success.

I agree, the coal load can be changed.  Overall this model is a home run.

Yes, the Kohs coal load does seem to violate the coefficient of slide. Perhaps the Korean builder thought the UP employed some water thinned Elmers to keep their coal loads in place? !!   I have noticed that Sunset 3rd Rail coal sizing varies from appropriate 3-4" up to bowling balls!  It's funny - - I have friends who essentially bought every steam locomotive produced by Precision Scale, and the more they studied each locomotive, the madder they got! "For God's sake, the incombibulator is 3" too short", etc. etc.

      Guess we have to remember that we could build our own "perfect" locomotive models from scratch. If I were to have tackled a UP 4-6-6-4 with the level of exquisite detail as on this Kohs model, I would have a had to start the model at approximately the time of Cleopatra's rule!

I had a PSC Cab Forward for a decade - on display on my bookshelf.  It really didn't bring me a great deal of joy.  In its place I now have a scratchbuilt model of the same thing and I am quite happy with it.  I was free to continue detailing it until I was happy. I stopped well short of a Kohs or Schrader model, but my stopping point was a choice.

The way that the coal naturally falls into an enclosure (like a tender) is known as the angle of repose. I suppose that, at times, the top of the coal pile was "manually trimmed" with a shovel by whomever was in charge of the chute!

I also would be interested in knowing how well the model runs, especially speed at a "standard" voltage, say 12 VDC. Also, what voltage is the engine designed for...or can use? I suppose that with a sound system better operation might be at 18 volts?

Originally Posted by up148:

Coal loads don't come with the Kohs Challenger.......it is owner added. Since this is a subjective choice there is no right or wrong, just what you like. 

 

Butch

The Kohs C&O H8 came with a coal load that could be placed in the tender if the owner wished to.  (oh a dangling preposition.)

 

Larry

Originally Posted by mwb:

Interesting that 1/2 the discussion relates to a coal load and not to actual model accuracy and prototype fidelity.

 

Used to be that O scale modelers could change out a coal load w/o too much angst being encountered.

 

O tempora! O mores!

Maybe that is a tribute to the model and the level of the detail. 

Originally Posted by LLKJR:
Originally Posted by mwb:

Interesting that 1/2 the discussion relates to a coal load and not to actual model accuracy and prototype fidelity.

 

Used to be that O scale modelers could change out a coal load w/o too much angst being encountered.

 

O tempora! O mores!

Maybe that is a tribute to the model and the level of the detail. 

Quite possibly so....then again....trust, but verify springs to mind vs. blind acceptance of all but a coal load......

 

 

 

 

Originally Posted by bob2:

The coal load controversy reminds me of three rail scale - this sort of thing would make them nuts!

 

Personally, if I were going to buy a model in this price range, it would have to fit the appropriate track gauge.  The coal load would be small potatoes in comparison.

The only reason I don't own any Kohs locos!!!   Them wheels just ain't right. 

The model is incredible in its detail, electronics and overall appearance. Absolutely the finest (IMHO) model produced of this prototype to date. It breaks ground on so many levels its hard to know where to begin and where to stop. I've only run it on a test stand and a short test track on DCC power and it performed flawlessly. A little tight at first, but even the 1st time I ran it the slow speed was incredible. 

 

It's equipped with dual ZIMO decoders. One in the loco and one in the tender. They are programmed to work in unison or independently so there are no electrical wires connecting the loco and tender together. Great idea!  Each one functions independently or when placed together on the track they work as one. So strange to see the loco (less tender) run and operate normally.

 

The ZIMO decoders sound great (much better than previous Kohs decoders) from the whistle which sounds just like the Challengers I've heard on my UP DVD's to all the other sounds you'd expect including a host of sounds while the loco is sitting idle on the track. The steam chuff goes in and out of synch like the prototype. Twin speakers in the boiler so the sound comes from the right area. Very impressive. 

 

Headlights, classification lights, number board lights, work lights (3 each side under the walkway and 1 under the rear cab roof), instrument lights and firebox flicker on the loco and back-up lights on the tender. Different CV's control which lights turn on and off as you would expect. 

 

There are so many opening hatches, doors, work steps and windows on both the loco and tender that I haven't even found them all. Most doors and hatches have little latches that swivel to lock them closed and a few on the tender have a small magnet that snaps them closed. It's just about overwhelming and I'm still taking it all in. 

 

I don't have an operational layout, but running it on a test stand and on a small test track it performed flawlessly. It has momentum so when the power is cut off it rolls to a stop (almost rolled off the end of the test track) . Not sure if this is due to flywheels or decoder programming but it starts and stops very smoothly. Very anxious to run it on a layout and see how it looks and behaves when it's opened up.  

 

Butch

 

PS: I measured the tire thickness, back to back spacing and flange depth on all the drivers and wheels with a micrometer and THIS Kohs loco is in gage. I was concerned and several Kohs model owners I know were very interested as well. They were all satisfied with the numbers I came up with, so wheel gage doesn't seem to be an issue on this model.  

 

PSS: Mine has a whistle chain from the whistle to the 1st boiler sheet joint aft of the whistle and my coupler orientation was correct as well. I heard the Indy Challengers had these problems so they must have been corrected by Kohs before my model was shipped. 

 

It is an overwhelming model that is just fantastic. I'm very happy with mine!

 

Butch

Last edited by up148

Just to make my comment clearer - I have no information on whether or not Kohs has proper wheel and track standards.  What I meant was, if I were to purchase the definitive Challenger, it would have to be either 17/64 scale or Proto- 48.  As far as I know, no Jabelmann Challengers were converted to Russian standard gauge.

Bob/Rob,

 

No foul. My PS comments were not aimed at your posts at all. I was just letting everyone know what I found when I measured the wheels as I was told Kohs had some issues in this area in the past and I wanted to clear the air on the Challenger.

 

 

Rob, your comment on brain surgery is so true. This is a real problem on many of these super-sophisticated models we are seeing these days. If it breaks you're in trouble because taking one of these apart is way beyond most modelers (me included) capabilities. 

 

Butch  

Originally Posted by up148:

Bob/Rob,

 

No foul. My PS comments were not aimed at your posts at all. I was just letting everyone know what I found when I measured the wheels as I was told Kohs had some issues in this area in the past and I wanted to clear the air on the Challenger.

 

 

Rob, your comment on brain surgery is so true. This is a real problem on many of these super-sophisticated models we are seeing these days. If it breaks you're in trouble because taking one of these apart is way beyond most modelers (me included) capabilities. 

 

Butch  

When my PB ticket comes through I'm going to contract with Boo Rim to convert a fleet of Kohs GG1's and K4s's to P:48! 

 

I am envious of you UP guys though.  What beautiful big steam. 

 

If only every piece of O scale could be as well detailed as Kohs or GPM. 

There is a problem with increasing complexity.  A friend had a PSC Commonwealth tender truck that was shorting.  At 126 individual pieces per truck, I told him it was beyond my capabilities.

 

he found a guy in Illinois who could do it at six bucks an hour.  I think the guy was able to hold it under six hours.  I would still be looking for the pieces on the floor.

 

I do use PSC Commonwealths, but only the kind they sell in a little kit with six journals and two sideframes per truck at $25/pair.

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