L Rotary Coal Tipple

Thank You for your service.

Sorry cannot help with Coal Tipper. I used to have one that worked great.

We would need to know the issue.  But no parts are available for the tipple, so Lionel would not be able to help.

Most common issue is people accidently apply power to the wrong terminals and fried the board.  

Would need a detailed description of what's happening with it.  Does it do nothing?  Does it make any noise?  

There are shipping stops that must be removed before operation but you would of heard it try.

Let us know.

Sean

here is a Lionel web sight that tells you about your coal tipple! maybe this will help!

https://www.slsprr.net/features/tipple.htm

Alan Mancus

you might also get in contact with Ben Fioriello he a good member of new jersey Njhighrailers club and they use your coal tipple on there layout! contact him threw this forum!

Alan Mancus

@Alan Mancus posted:

you might also get in contact with Ben Fioriello he a good member of new jersey Njhighrailers club and they use your coal tipple on there layout! contact him threw this forum!

Alan Mancus

 

Are you sure that's the one NJ High-Railers has?  Unless they've added another, I think they have the AAA Precision Turntables model, not the Lionel one.  They are very different.

-Dave

Hi JIM,

  Could be a few things that go wrong.  The first is the cherry switches on the deck where the car would depress that switch.  That may need replaced, if the red light doesn’t come on.  Also there are contacts on the side of the drum under the Lionel logo.  You have to take the sides off to check that.  Also the pinion gear that turns the drum could be broken, but you would get noise if it were that.  Other then that if we had more info we could narrow it down.  

We do not use the Lionel coal tipple on the layout. 

-Greg

Jim - I just realized the link Alan Mancus posted is for a fellow forum member's website.  Her name is Susan Deats and her forum name is the same.  Her email is in her profile.  I believe she is a master electrician by trade but regardless, she has extensive knowledge regarding the hobby and I'm sure would be able to provide guidance if you reached out directly.

-Greg

Thanx, guys, for all your replies.  BTW, this is my second time writing this, as something I did (or the Forum website did) sent my first reply into hyperspace.  Anyway, I now realize that I should have stated at the outset that I was an electrician and research chemist in my former life, and for many years kept seven G-Scale restaurant layouts running in the Greenville/Spartanburg area in W SC.  Plus an N-scale restaurant running in Johnson City, TN.  Plus built at least five O-scale and HO basement layouts over the years.  And am now converting all my O scale and some S & HO Scale engines to Dead Rail (battery) power.  Not bragging; just letting you know that I am far from a newbie in this hobby.  I apologize for not making that clear at the outset.

Given the above, I would like to bounce something off you folks (as sort of a sanity check):  My plan for going forward with this rotary tipple project .  Here goes:  If I cannot get the thing running properly (that is, as advertised by Lionel), with your collective help, then I plan to gut its electronics, and use a momentary, ON-OFF-ON, two-pole toggle switch to supply forward and backward DC power to the rotary motor...manually stopping it when all the coal is dumped. 

At this time, I also feel trying to incorporate the car-centering micro-switches, altho do-able (i.e., using a relay to allow motor circuit power only when both MS's are closed), but also a tad unnecessary (maybe even 2-3 tads).  Why?  Ms Deats in her great tipple repair article, showed how to use plastic shimstock between the rails to accomplish the same thing.  Thanx, Susan!

Guys, thanx again for showing interest in this project...and inspiring me to press on.  Actually, I feel I have no choice, as I paid way too much for something that does not work at all right out of the box.  And here's the really sad part:  If I cannot ever get it to work, I can't even use it as a boat anchor because 1)  The dang thing is so light and rickety, it would probably float,  and 2)  I don't own a boat!  So please help me get thru this ordeal.

HI JIM,

  Hope you get r done.  Please post and let us know what the problem was and if there was a fix.  Good Luck!

@jim partridge posted:

.....................

Given the above, I would like to bounce something off you folks (as sort of a sanity check):  My plan for going forward with this rotary tipple project .  Here goes:  If I cannot get the thing running properly (that is, as advertised by Lionel), with your collective help, then I plan to gut its electronics, and use a momentary, ON-OFF-ON, two-pole toggle switch to supply forward and backward DC power to the rotary motor...manually stopping it when all the coal is dumped.

 ........

Don't forget about the clamp downs.  I have no idea what the proper voltages are or any other details, but the Lionel Tipple needs to clamp down on the bathtub gondola before you start to rotate, or the car will leave the rails.  I suspect the chances of it landing back properly on the rails when rotated back into position would be very slim to none if it's not clamped down during the ride.  

Depending on the needs of that mechanism, it's probably another double throw switch of some sort to activate the clamp and then release it when done.

Good luck with the project.

-Dave

Dave, I did not forget the clampdowns.  I took a cursory look, and seeing no relay clamping actuators, I figured they were totally mechanical in nature...with clamping initiated when car unit first starts rotating. I will revisit these actuators and, if needed, as you recommend, will add another simple ON-OFF switch to toggle these buggers 'ON' when needed.  I may also try to incorporate some sort of timing interconnect circuit that will energize these relays automatically when the 'Rotate' Toggle switch is first activated...but that may come a bit later, as I want to get this thing installed and operating.  Of course, all this depends upon whether these clamps are indeed electro-mechanical.  Either way, I'll let you know.  Fair enuff?

Of course fair enough . 

At this point, you've been examining the workings and had it disassembled far more than I ever did.  I can't easily check mine right now to review operation (stored away at the moment - sorry!), but I suppose it's possible it's an elegant mechanical system that uses the same motor and the clamps just naturally come down before rotation starts. I possibly had an incorrect assumption that it's a separate electro-mechanical actuator to move the clamps.

-Dave

Hi Again David,  After taking a more careful look, I have determined for certain that the four car clamping devices are not solenoid actuated, but instead work off a gear train driven by the one motor thru the geared large rotary tipple end wheels (or whatever they are called).  Since they are 100% mechanically driven, the only concern I have with them is getting them and their spring-return assemblies back into proper alignment when this unit is reassembled.  But you are correct in stating that these four critters are absolutely essential for the proper operation of this accessory.  So thanx for your heads-up.  Please be assured that I will give them my best attention from now on.

BTW, David, my advice is that you do not take this sucker apart if you can possibly avoid it, as it is going to be a bear trying to reassemble it.  If/when the time comes when you install your rotary dumper on your layout, and it doesn't work, please feel free to check with me and I will give you the benefit of my experience.  BTW, so far, it has been horrible.  Here's an example:  Susan says, after unscrewing all pertinent screws, "gently pry up on the railing ***'y to get it to come loose".  Nope, not mine.  Those four posts were glued in place, and I had to break each glue bond, which was not at all easy, as I did not want to wreck the piece in the process.  I feel this is the kind of thing you need to be aware of before you tear into it.  Just thought you'd like to know....

Not much to add since mine works.

I would just like to say, this is one of best "how to fix and possibly modify" an accesory thread I've read here in a long time.

Jim,keep us apprised of your progress. Hope to see a cool finished project.

Thanx, David and others, for your kind words.  This is my first time writing in a Forum about what I am trying to fix/modify, but, trust me, as I have stated before, this is not my first rodeo.  BTW, maybe this is not the time or place to mention this, but if I don't get it out now, I'll not remember it again for many moons.  To wit: 

After I retired from the G-scale restaurant scene, my son Jon took over, and the first thing he did was to re-motor several G-Scale engines with a much more reliable, low-cost drop-in can motor, and he has yet to change a motor in these modified engines.  And it has been several years.  That in itself doesn't mean much until you learn that the typical stock G-Scale motor running all day, seven days a week, lasts only six months to a year.   I don't know whether this is the kind of thing the G scale guys would like to hear, but if it is, have one of them get back to me and we can pursue it thru the G-scale Forum link.  Meantime, I've got a nifty Lionel rotary dumper to fix!

Success! Sort of! Found the problem!  After taking advice to use apply HO DC power from a small (crappy) Lionel 8W power supply, which did not even result in a spark when first connected, I built my own DC Power Supply with four 10 amp diodes and a Lionel ZW .  Now, with plenty of power, all I got was a spark...but no motor rotation.  Suspecting the motor was working against a jammed or frozen (this accessory sat around in its box for over 15 years) clutch, I disassembled the clutch housing, only to find, are you ready for this?, fourteen gears, all on two main axles and the motor axle.  Which means most of these gears are free to rotate around these axles, that is, when working properly, not locked on to them.

At this point I am thinking that the axle grease dried out enuff in several of these unattached gear-to-axle locations that Lionel's crummy high-speed, low-torque motor just could not overcome the unwanted frictional forces associated with these several gear-slip-on-axle dried grease high-drag locations.  That's all I know for now!  More later.  But I am super-happy to have at last found the problem!  Which, BTW, I could not have found without completely disassembling the unit and taking the whole drive train apart.  Bummer.

One last thought: If anyone cares enuff about this repair project to ask for pictures, now is the time.  I don't ever take pics for myself, because I hope what I need to remember is locked away somewhere in my squash, but I will be happy to gin up a few pix as I go forward trying to repair and re-assemble this plastic, toothy monster.  Just let me know.

Good news!  Sort of.  While laying in a bazillion pieces, I got the thing to work!  For those wanting to understand how to get one of these sick puppies to work, here's what I did:  After getting the clutch gears unlocked, and figuring there is usually only one thing that goes wrong at a time with stuff like this, using clip leads, I shorted out all the micro-switches and put 16VAC power to the unit.  Nothing.  Then, remembering that the rotating part with its red LED was not in the circuit, I figured that the two car-positioning micro-switches must be in series, and, when both are closed (that is, the bathtub gon is in its correct position for dumping), this part of the electro-mechanical circuit, along with four spring-loaded connectors that provide power to and from the circular metal strips on the geared, rotary end-pieces, form a giant dark web of series-connected parts to get continuity up to and back from the rotating part of this unit.  Very clever...but mighty complicated!  (BTW, a fifth spring-loaded connector, with it's own circular metal strip on just one of the rotary end-pieces, sends ground to the LED, and also feeds the outer track rails...but I digress.)

So when I attached another clip-lead to the two side points on the base, to bridge the up-and-back part of the circuit (the actual part the rotates), and powered up the unit, still nothing...until I bridged the 'Start Switch'. terminals.  Then...PRESTO!...the unit came to life!   Which is another way of saying that the motor turned on, and maybe more importantly, when I removed the micro-switch clip-leads, it also reversed itself at the end of its trail.  I then removed the clip-lead bridging the "SS" terminals, and then bridged them momentarily with my screwdriver, the unit started up, and ran until the 'forward turn-off micro-switch was engaged.  Another quick screwdriver bridging and the unit reversed itself and ran again until its "reverse turn-off" switch was closed.  Finally, the unit now worked as advertised...while still in pieces!  So now, the next major hurdle (actually, the part I am dreading), is putting this hummer back together again.  More on this later.  JP