Layout Design Feedback

Justin,

How are you going to reach things that are more than 3 feet from the edge of the table? Do you have duck-unders (holes in the table)?

@Bruce Brown posted:

Justin,

How are you going to reach things that are more than 3 feet from the edge of the table? Do you have duck-unders (holes in the table)?

Bruce, here's a PNG.

I know you've started several threads about this plan, so please tell us that you have intentionally decided to ignore certain suggestions and then some of us will move on.  For example, have you even considered the purpose of your yards or your layout?  I believe someone else mentioned the benefits of having a yard lead that doesn't interfere with your mainlines, but no such changes have been made.  Many have commented about TOO MUCH TRACK and not enough room for scenery or buildings; but you don't change or answer.

Finally, an around the walls layout, in a room this size, with a nice, long peninsula would allow for one, good size and easily accessible yard (with a yard lead) and an engine house at the end.  Plus, in that configuration, your yard joins the ovals in a nice wye complex that allows trains to travel either direction around the room.  Also eliminates having to crawl under to access hatches.

How your build your layout is certainly up to you and you should use the plan that YOU will have the most fun running.  Ignoring advice is certainly also your prerogative, but without explanation, it makes it hard for us to understand what you really want to do.

Chuck

@PRR1950 posted:

I know you've started several threads about this plan, so please tell us that you have intentionally decided to ignore certain suggestions and then some of us will move on.  For example, have you even considered the purpose of your yards or your layout?  I believe someone else mentioned the benefits of having a yard lead that doesn't interfere with your mainlines, but no such changes have been made.  Many have commented about TOO MUCH TRACK and not enough room for scenery or buildings; but you don't change or answer.

Finally, an around the walls layout, in a room this size, with a nice, long peninsula would allow for one, good size and easily accessible yard (with a yard lead) and an engine house at the end.  Plus, in that configuration, your yard joins the ovals in a nice wye complex that allows trains to travel either direction around the room.  Also eliminates having to crawl under to access hatches.

How your build your layout is certainly up to you and you should use the plan that YOU will have the most fun running.  Ignoring advice is certainly also your prerogative, but without explanation, it makes it hard for us to understand what you really want to do.

Chuck

When I was designing the yard lead, I kept in mind what Rich Melvin had said and opted to put a loop around the yard that would serve as, and only as, my yard lead and added two sections where I could leave completed trains but still be able to move switchers around.  As for its purpose, I'm leaning towards using it to store cars (not realistic, I know).

You mentioned either yesterday or the day before about having a track cross from the roundhouse and going to the yard; that was something I had done but it wasn't visible at the time (in the photo attached, you can see how an engine can go from the roundhouse to the yard without having to switch onto the inner mainline.

I did consider doing an around the wall type layout but decided not to because the room has quite a few windows that I will need access to periodically.  There's also a stairwell on the left side of the layout (in the layout photo, .

As far as using a lot of track and not leaving much for scenery/buildings, I don't think I'll be putting any buildings other than the roundhouse, coaling and water towers (on the track that spurs of from the switch that heads into the turntable), and a station (at the "top" where the tracks have ~11" between them) and scenery would be somewhat like the landscape photo I attached below, except I would only put trees on the part of the layout that is on the "mountain".

Let me know if you have any other questions i didn't answer.

-Justin.

Ignoring the track plan for the time being, the placement in the room seems problematic. You have a layout that isn't against the walls, except in one location, which means you can't walk all the way around it. It's a long trip from the stairs to the bottom aisle.

Without dimensions, I can't tell how big your room or layout is, but some of the aisles seem excessive while others are narrow. Does the program let you overlay a 1' grid so we can get a sense of scale?

I would address these issues first. And if you don't mind, post the pictures in the body of your comment so we don't have to open a separate window to see them. There is a box to check for that.

Get Started.  I have a friend who has been *planning* his layout for years... still ain't running trains.

Just run one loop, the outer loop on your plan on the floor run your trains and walk around it for a day or two... take it apart ...and, then, run one loop, the inner loop around the perimeter for a day or two.   I'm with these guys on the perimeter build.

It's good to plan... execution of *the plan* is better.

@Will posted:

Ignoring the track plan for the time being, the placement in the room seems problematic. You have a layout that isn't against the walls, except in one location, which means you can't walk all the way around it. It's a long trip from the stairs to the bottom aisle.

Without dimensions, I can't tell how big your room or layout is, but some of the aisles seem excessive while others are narrow. Does the program let you overlay a 1' grid so we can get a sense of scale?

I would address these issues first. And if you don't mind, post the pictures in the body of your comment so we don't have to open a separate window to see them. There is a box to check for that.

I "drew" on a screenshot of the layout plan and then added the dimensions, let me know if the photo helps

Justin, you're really putting in a lot of work on your plan and I hope it's coming together for you.  I admire your efforts.  One thing that might make your room limitations clearer is indicating where the windows are in the room.  It also looks as if you may be reserving other areas of the room, like maybe seating and/or other things.  Perhaps an indication on your drawing of such things would provide more clarity.  One last note, and I hope it doesn't sound nit-picky, but I noticed that the 26' dimension at the top of the drawing seems out of scale with the other dimensions.

@SteveH posted:

Justin, you're really putting in a lot of work on your plan and I hope it's coming together for you.  I admire your efforts.  One thing that might make your room limitations clearer is indicating where the windows are in the room.  It also looks as if you may be reserving other areas of the room, like maybe seating and/or other things.  Perhaps an indication on your drawing of such things would provide more clarity.  One last note, and I hope it doesn't sound nit-picky, but I noticed that the 26' dimension at the top of the drawing seems out of scale with the other dimensions.

just checked and you're right, my bad I have no idea how I got that measurement.  The photo below shows where the windows are.

I’d dump the island and go around the room. 2’- 30” deep to the walls. Run it in front of the stairs, duck under coming up and you’re in. Make removable back drop panels for the windows. Get rid of the TV and couch, it’s a train room. Get rid of all those turnouts, there gonna make you crazy after a while when engines act up running through them, dropping sound etc. Maybe a peninsula area for the turntable making it easier to access from all sides. Some ladder tracks and a pile of shelves underneath to store what you don’t want to run at the moment. Less is more.

I would spend some time to design an "around the room" layout, with a drop down or lift up section to get you into the middle of the layout. Make the table depth between 24" (ideal) and 30" (max), any more and you will not be able to reach derailments and scenery against the wall. It costs nothing to investigate this option. It will change the layout, however you will have a much longer main line, with lots of room for industries.

Your room is long enough to have a track go down to a second level under the table, where you can have a hidden staging yard. Your table height can be changed to accommodate your window height. Most layouts tend to be about 48" off the ground, however I designed my layout at only about 24" off the ground. this was to accommodate the shape of the attic roof and hip wall. I have chairs around the layout, allowing me to do most of my switching operations while sitting down.

I eventually expanded my layout to have a twice around the room main line. (above)

I have a lift up bridge and a door like swing open bridge to access the centre of my layout.

I designed local control panels at each town. This simplifies the wiring, and allows multiple operators the opportunity to switch local industries without getting in each other's way.

Enjoy the design process. I created about 10 designs before I selected on the one I liked the best. You can design a switching layout design, A layout with lots of yard space, a layout with hidden yards below the main layout, something with more space for buildings and scenery, a single main line, a double main line, a twice around the room layout option, etc.

As can be seen from the pictures above, I ended up choosing a switching layout, with minimal space between towns. My room is only 11ft by 22ft, with two yards off to the left side (on each side of the stairs leading up to the train room in my attic room). Your room is over 4X larger than mine, so you can do almost anything in that space. You will have enough room in the centre of your layout to entertain guests, sitting down if you like, while watching the trains run.

Just a quick doodle, but I would have the aisle extend around the room. It doesn't have to be so deep, 30-36" is enough. Make the section extending by the stairs a stub end yard or the turntable. Limit the loops to the main table. I didn't go into any detail of other yards in the middle, but I would put a reversing loop in there somewhere.

I would suggest to tape out the table shape on the floor with low tack masking tape. The get some folding tables or position chairs to define the extent of it, and walk around to get a feel for the size and aisles. If it were me, I would do that, before I spend anymore time on the track plan. Also, I think you want to see the trains from the sofa, but you can play with that later.

@Joe K posted:

I would spend some time to design an "around the room" layout, with a drop down or lift up section to get you into the middle of the layout. Make the table depth between 24" (ideal) and 30" (max), any more and you will not be able to reach derailments and scenery against the wall. It costs nothing to investigate this option. It will change the layout, however you will have a much longer main line, with lots of room for industries.

Your room is long enough to have a track go down to a second level under the table, where you can have a hidden staging yard. Your table height can be changed to accommodate your window height. Most layouts tend to be about 48" off the ground, however I designed my layout at only about 24" off the ground. this was to accommodate the shape of the attic roof and hip wall. I have chairs around the layout, allowing me to do most of my switching operations while sitting down.

I eventually expanded my layout to have a twice around the room main line. (above)

I have a lift up bridge and a door like swing open bridge to access the centre of my layout.

I designed local control panels at each town. This simplifies the wiring, and allows multiple operators the opportunity to switch local industries without getting in each other's way.

Enjoy the design process. I created about 10 designs before I selected on the one I liked the best. You can design a switching layout design, A layout with lots of yard space, a layout with hidden yards below the main layout, something with more space for buildings and scenery, a single main line, a double main line, a twice around the room layout option, etc.

As can be seen from the pictures above, I ended up choosing a switching layout, with minimal space between towns. My room is only 11ft by 22ft, with two yards off to the left side (on each side of the stairs leading up to the train room in my attic room). Your room is over 4X larger than mine, so you can do almost anything in that space. You will have enough room in the centre of your layout to entertain guests, sitting down if you like, while watching the trains run.

I see what you're saying.  What's the widest curve you run on your island layout/Would it be doable to run a triple mainline with the outer curve being around O-99 or O-108?

Justin can you post a complete plan of the room showing all dimensions, including the smaller area by the stairs?  As Steve said, your plan and measurments don't add up, so I would remeasure everything. (A critical measurement is from the stairs to the wall across from it.) You should measure each wall and all the windows on the walls and space between them.  Also the door to the storage room. Do the stairs go up or down. Leave all track off it. And take some wide angle photos.

I'd like to see just how much space you have and have an idea. Also maximum and minimum radius you want, the size of your turntable, height you want the layout to be, how many loops ideally, grades, elevated track?

I think you have enough room for an island layout with an operating space in the middle reached by a duck under or lift bridge. You have so many windows and a big space. If you want to go around the walls, you are going to have to cover up some windows.

All this is based on your original plan, and assumes that you want as much layout as possible in the space and that you have the time and money to to it. Otherwise start with a more modest plan and expand later.

I agree with Will above 100%.  Create an island on paper or on your floor that is 36" from every wall.  The room is plenty big.

My curves are 060 and 072 on the main line, and some 048 on passing sidings. Most of my switches are 060, 072 and lots of 072 wye (which are good for keeping the yard tracks close together. Some of my industrial sidings are 036 switches, mainly due to the tight space I have to work with. If the room was larger, there would be very few 036 switches. However on an industrial siding, the tight curves are OK and relatively prototypical. 18" Passenger cars do not do well on the 036 curves, so you have to plan your layout accordingly.

I do not recommend a triple main line. That requires a huge amount of space. One thing I would recommend is not over doing the amount of track. On my layout, I have too much track, however since I am running a switching layout, and the space is fixed at 11 x 22, I have no choice. If I were to do this again, I would like to have a little more space between my towns. I was able to achieve this on the upper level, where there is one yard, 3 industrial siding areas and one passing siding, where I can also run around the cars, to properly servicing the various industries and making up a train. The rest of the upper track is single track open running, which makes the trains look good.

On my lower level, the trains are always going through or beside buildings and sidings. This gives a "busy" look which isn't the greatest. I have compromised appearance for the switching operations. I love the switching puzzle my layout has created, which I am always trying to develop improved operating procedures and logic.

The other consideration for a triple main line is that it may make your table too wide. I find 24" is a nice depth, maybe up to 30" (which is a bit of a reach, and a real stretch in the corners). 36" will be quite deep and you will have difficulty if there is any track along the wall. Also you need to have reach access to create and maintain scenery and buildings along the back of the layout.

@Will posted:

Justin can you post a complete plan of the room showing all dimensions, including the smaller area by the stairs?  As Steve said, your plan and measurments don't add up, so I would remeasure everything. (A critical measurement is from the stairs to the wall across from it.) You should measure each wall and all the windows on the walls and space between them.  Also the door to the storage room. Do the stairs go up or down. Leave all track off it. And take some wide angle photos.

I'd like to see just how much space you have and have an idea. Also maximum and minimum radius you want, the size of your turntable, height you want the layout to be, how many loops ideally, grades, elevated track?

I think you have enough room for an island layout with an operating space in the middle reached by a duck under or lift bridge. You have so many windows and a big space. If you want to go around the walls, you are going to have to cover up some windows.

All this is based on your original plan, and assumes that you want as much layout as possible in the space and that you have the time and money to to it. Otherwise start with a more modest plan and expand later.

The photo below has all the room dimensions.  I wasn't able to get any wide angle photos though, because currently the room is being used as a temporary place to put things that the family doesn't use (that'll be taken care of soon) and there was too much clutter for my to be comfortable posting a picture of it.

I haven't given much thought about what height I'd like the layout to be, so I'm pretty flexible about that.

The max and minimum curve I'm aiming for on the mainline is a minimum of O-81 and a max of O-54 and in the yard a minimum and maximum of 54.  The turntable is a Millhouse River Studio 34" turntable. Ideally I'd like 3 loops, a maximum grade of 4% (but would prefer to stay at 2%) and a height of 8-9 inches for elevated track.

Atlas O track has a 4.5" center rail-to-center rail width instead of Fastrack's 6" center rail-to-center rail width, so I don't think that would be a problem (?).  If I do put industrial sidings, I'd go with at least O-72 so I could run any engine thru them.

What do you mean by "switching layout"?

With a room that size I would never consider building a layout based on an island in the middle of the room! Build it around the room. You'll get a lot more operational flexibility and more running room that way.

Ease of access is a side benefit of the around-the-room design. I don't envy someone needing to re-rail something in the middle of that yard.

A switching layout means that the main purpose of my layout is to build trains, move cars from town to town and switch cars to the various industries. In this type of a layout, there are lots of industries with lots of industrial sidings and yards.

Some layouts have relatively few industries, and are designed more to run trains on a long main line, with distance between towns and industries. Generally they have more room for scenery, and fewer built up areas and buildings.

@Rich Melvin posted:

With a room that size I would never consider building a layout based on an island in the middle of the room! Build it around the room. You'll get a lot more operational flexibility and more running room that way.

Ease of access is a side benefit of the around-the-room design. I don't envy someone needing to re-rail something in the middle of that yard.

I see your point

@Joe K posted:

A switching layout means that the main purpose of my layout is to build trains, move cars from town to town and switch cars to the various industries. In this type of a layout, there are lots of industries with lots of industrial sidings and yards.

Some layouts have relatively few industries, and are designed more to run trains on a long main line, with distance between towns and industries. Generally they have more room for scenery, and fewer built up areas and buildings.

Gotcha.  I'm the type that's more into layouts that you described in the second paragraph

@Rich Melvin posted:

I don't envy someone needing to re-rail something in the middle of that yard.

Thanks Rich... I was just getting over my inferiority complex ...now, it's back to square one! 

Hi Justin,

Here is my idea. Excuse the crude hand drawn plan but it is in scale.

I think you have a big enough space to leave access for the windows and still have a nice run. One thing- check your measurements. 221" and 14'2" ( best to be consistent in how you put your measurements, so 18'5" and 14'2") add up to 32'7" and you have 30' on the outside wall. Something is off.

I would open up the center- you can still have an 81"D loop.  I have not shown any inner loops, reverse loops or elevated track. I'll leave that to you.

The layout is never more than 8' deep, allowing reach in access to most points

What I have shown is putting the main yard extending on the narrower peninsula. ( I am using 11' 7" here ( 30'- 18'5") If it is in fact 14' 2", this could be 6' or 7' wide and even have a loop around the outside. You also have a nice spot for a small destination town.

I don't see any need for the layout to extend past the stairs. But you will have a nice view of the turntable and yard when you come down the stairs.

@Will posted:

Hi Justin,

Here is my idea. Excuse the crude hand drawn plan but it is in scale.

I think you have a big enough space to leave access for the windows and still have a nice run. One thing- check your measurements. 221" and 14'2" ( best to be consistent in how you put your measurements, so 18'5" and 14'2") add up to 32'7" and you have 30' on the outside wall. Something is off.

I would open up the center- you can still have an 81"D loop.  I have not shown any inner loops, reverse loops or elevated track. I'll leave that to you.

The layout is never more than 8' deep, allowing reach in access to most points

What I have shown is putting the main yard extending on the narrower peninsula. ( I am using 11' 7" here ( 30'- 18'5") If it is in fact 14' 2", this could be 6' or 7' wide and even have a loop around the outside. You also have a nice spot for a small destination town.

I don't see any need for the layout to extend past the stairs. But you will have a nice view of the turntable and yard when you come down the stairs.

I like that plan.  The part on the top where you wrote "confirm this length is 330" or 27.5' and on the left side from the stairs to the wall is 139" or 11' 7".

@Will posted:

This is still an island layout! Why waste that aisle space outside the layout? Expand the layout all the way out to the walls.

@Rich Melvin posted:

This is still an island layout! Why waste that aisle space outside the layout? Expand the layout all the way out to the walls.

I think the space is big enough, Rich. But the main thing is he said he needed to access the windows. It's obviously a big sunny room with lots of windows, so an island layout could look really good, preserving the windows.

@Justin Acuna posted:

I like that plan.  The part on the top where you wrote "confirm this length is 330" or 27.5' and on the left side from the stairs to the wall is 139" or 11' 7".

Okay, 11' 7" is what I based it on. You wrote 14' 2 on your plan.

@Will posted:

I think the space is big enough, Rich. But the main thing is he said he needed to access the windows. It's obviously a big sunny room with lots of windows, so an island layout could look really good, preserving the windows.

I was thinking about how I could make an around the wall layout work but still be able to access the windows.  Maybe have it sit a little lower than most layouts (it is on the second floor so water leaks wouldn't be a problem)? 30" high would be enough for to be able to reach the windows. What do you think?

Thoughts?

Justin, I don't want to be rude, but I am starting to understand Chuck's frustration in the earlier post. As he said, you have posted a few topics about this and are all over the map with your designs and requirements. Every time you post a new idea, it has problems. These latest are not a bad start, but they have issues with width of aisles, reach and access, minimum radius, blocking doors, etc. etc. And you haven't put them in the room plan.

I just spent some time coming up with something that would be a good starting point based on what you said were your limitations, including access to the windows. Decide what you want and stick to it. Rich made an observation of what he would do- put it against the walls. This may not be the best for your space. You have plenty of room to do either an around the room or island.

I don't know how serious you are about building something so big. This is a big space to fill with trains if you have never done a layout. If you have the money to acquire the trains and track, not to mention lumber, to fill this space, I would suggest you hire someone to design a track plan for you. If not, I would start small and expand later when you have more experience. It's a lot easier to add on than rip out and start over.

That is my best advice. Good luck.

@Will posted:

Justin, I don't want to be rude, but I am starting to understand Chuck's frustration in the earlier post. As he said, you have posted a few topics about this and are all over the map with your designs and requirements. Every time you post a new idea, it has problems. These latest are not a bad start, but they have issues with width of aisles, reach and access, minimum radius, blocking doors, etc. etc. And you haven't put them in the room plan.

I just spent some time coming up with something that would be a good starting point based on what you said were your limitations, including access to the windows. Decide what you want and stick to it. Rich made an observation of what he would do- put it against the walls. This may not be the best for your space. You have plenty of room to do either an around the room or island.

I don't know how serious you are about building something so big. This is a big space to fill with trains if you have never done a layout. If you have the money to acquire the trains and track, not to mention lumber, to fill this space, I would suggest you hire someone to design a track plan for you. If not, I would start small and expand later when you have more experience. It's a lot easier to add on than rip out and start over.

That is my best advice. Good luck.

thanks.

Justin, I feel bad you haven't posted and think I may be responsible. I fear I was a bit too blunt. Please don't stop posting on account of anything I said. The main thing is to have fun designing your layout and fun running trains.  Go for it!

You got a really awesome space to work with here in terms of size. I admit that I did not read every reply up to this point. I skimmed and I have no regrets. My only suggestion is to keep working the design because lumber prices are stupid high right now. You have time to keep learning. My first track plan (not posted here) looked so different and so much better than the latest version and was functional. Even the plans I posted here are very different.

I guess I'm saying that the price of lumber is high enough that I think you got time to refine your design (if you even want to. Maybe you're happy with it, I didn't read that far). Unless you got a sweet hook up for lumber! haha lucky you if that's the case.

@Will posted:

Justin, I feel bad you haven't posted and think I may be responsible. I fear I was a bit too blunt. Please don't stop posting on account of anything I said. The main thing is to have fun designing your layout and fun running trains.  Go for it!

Not you, I've just been bogged down with other things lately (like getting a professional engineer license for one) I haven't been able to get much of anything done other than think about whether or not I can fit in a reversing loop that can accommodate kadees and if so, where.

@Justin Acuna posted:

Not you, I've just been bogged down with other things lately (like getting a professional engineer license for one) I haven't been able to get much of anything done other than think about whether or not I can fit in a reversing loop that can accommodate kadees and if so, where.

Good luck with your license. I can see how that would keep you busy!

I hear that license test is a doozy. Good luck! We'll be here when you get back haha

Justin,

I have a few questions to ask about the windows. You say you need to access them. Is this for cleaning, curtain/shade access, fire exit, or for another reason? Are all of the windows the same height from the floor, and how far from the floor are they? If the windows are at different heights. How far out from the wall do the stools (sills) stick out? If your windows are 42" or higher from the ground, and they ate not a fire exit, an around the wall layout is certainly possible.

If we can't use the walls because of the windows, the next thing to think about is the aisle space between the walls and the windows. 36" should be reasonable.

Instead of one massive yard, think about one medium yard and a couple of smaller yards. The roundhouse and turntable will make a nice focal point and area of interest as your family and friends enter the room

I'll work on an idea I have and get back you.

@ChessieFan72 posted:

Justin,

I have a few questions to ask about the windows. You say you need to access them. Is this for cleaning, curtain/shade access, fire exit, or for another reason? Are all of the windows the same height from the floor, and how far from the floor are they? If the windows are at different heights. How far out from the wall do the stools (sills) stick out? If your windows are 42" or higher from the ground, and they ate not a fire exit, an around the wall layout is certainly possible.

If we can't use the walls because of the windows, the next thing to think about is the aisle space between the walls and the windows. 36" should be reasonable.

Instead of one massive yard, think about one medium yard and a couple of smaller yards. The roundhouse and turntable will make a nice focal point and area of interest as your family and friends enter the room

I'll work on an idea I have and get back you.

It's for another reason, I prefer natural lighting over artificial lighting so when I had the room designed, I squeezed as many rooms as possible into it; I use it for lighting during the daytime and only would need access during the summer to open them.  All the windows are around 2.5' off the floor and are 40" tall.  However, since this is on the 2nd floor, I wouldn't mind putting the layout below the windows, but I think that would be too low.