LCS Wifi Module

Since it says recommended, I'd just do it.

 If there's an issue, then do the hard thing.

I've taken mine over a friends house who has 2 sensor tracks on his layout.  When we installed them we intentionally left a connection hang from the second sensor track so we could add the LCS WiFi when I came over.  Can't say I ever had an issue being the 3rd device in line.  Your mileage may vary.

Thanks Chuck & Marty. Just ordered a module and cable from Nicholas Smith. Should be interesting to play around with.

Apples55 posted:

 

... There is some additional "clarification" on pg. 11 - "The only exception is that an LCS WiFi must be the first device in the chain if no Lionel Command Base is present".

 

Could someone please explain this clarification? I thought a command base was required for Legacy no matter what configurations you were using? How do things work with no Lionel command base?

I am not all that familiar with the Lionel devices and their setup as all I have is Legacy and and a couple of engines, the rest of my stuff is DCS which seems so much easier as there are less devices to contend with. But, going forward I may want to add more Lionel devices like sensor tracks, maybe WiFi, etc.

Legacy requires the command base but the LCS does not. So if someone wanted to use LCS on an iPad to operate turnouts and accessories but run trains conventional that can be done.

In response to the original question, base on our "experiences" getting a large LCS to operate I will suggest signal loss concerns are the reason for Lionel recommending the WiFi device always be first. The WiFi device needs to reliably exchange information with the Legacy base. Were the WiFi device farther from the base those signals and data will suffer losses. I can state with certainty that an LCS configuration with 35 LCS devices and 200' of connecting cables will not work. When we connected the Lionel diagnostic software the problem was clear, it was signal loss and data corruption. The signal was less than 1/4 if the desired level. Lionel was completely responsive, they solved the problem by sending us 3 custom made signal amplifiers to include in the LCS. The Layout Control System has now worked with 100% reliability for the last year.

I'm not sure how the LCS would operate the accessories since it is dependent on the Legacy or BASE1L to actually generate the TMCC signal to those accessories.  Maybe I'm missing something...

AmFlyer posted:

In response to the original question, base on our "experiences" getting a large LCS to operate I will suggest signal loss concerns are the reason for Lionel recommending the WiFi device always be first. The WiFi device needs to reliably exchange information with the Legacy base. Were the WiFi device farther from the base those signals and data will suffer losses. I can state with certainty that an LCS configuration with 35 LCS devices and 200' of connecting cables will not work. When we connected the Lionel diagnostic software the problem was clear, it was signal loss and data corruption. The signal was less than 1/4 if the desired level. Lionel was completely responsive, they solved the problem by sending us 3 custom made signal amplifiers to include in the LCS. The Layout Control System has now worked with 100% reliability for the last year.

Tom;

Luckily for me, as I originally stated, the wifi module will make a total of three devices and they will all be within a couple of feet of the Legacy base, so I have my fingers crossed that I will have nothing but problem free results!!!

John, the instructions for the LCS WiFi module are specific that accessories can be controlled with a WiFi module, one or more ASC2's and an iPad. The Legacy base is only required with LCS to control the engines. I have personally never tested this setup. I never thought I would have that many LCS modules but 45 turnouts, 20 uncouplers, 25 sidings, 5 accessory tracks, 3 building lighting zones, three SensorTracks and some miscellaneous items later I have 35 LCS components! 

Paul, you should have no problems with that setup.

The ASC2 and the like will work, try controlling those TMCC accessories and switches without the command base and let me know how it works out.

AmFlyer posted:

In response to the original question, base on our "experiences" getting a large LCS to operate I will suggest signal loss concerns are the reason for Lionel recommending the WiFi device always be first. The WiFi device needs to reliably exchange information with the Legacy base. Were the WiFi device farther from the base those signals and data will suffer losses. I can state with certainty that an LCS configuration with 35 LCS devices and 200' of connecting cables will not work. When we connected the Lionel diagnostic software the problem was clear, it was signal loss and data corruption. The signal was less than 1/4 if the desired level. Lionel was completely responsive, they solved the problem by sending us 3 custom made signal amplifiers to include in the LCS. The Layout Control System has now worked with 100% reliability for the last year.

Thanks for the information.  Interesting about the "Signal Amps".  Wonder if this will be a new product or an "as needed requested" device.

The layout that my friend has is nowhere as LCS intensive as what you posted so I suspect the OP should be ok with a modest setup.  As I said "your mileage may vary".  It's always good to hear about large setups and the complications and solutions we may not encounter.  Thanks for sharing!

Marty, attached below is a picture of one of the signal amplifiers along with its required power supply. These were assembled and provided by Rudy and Jon out here on the west coast. The Lionel diagnostic software they provided showed we would need 4 of these but they only had enough parts for three so we made it work. 

Another alternative fix would be to custom assemble all the interconnecting cables using heavier gauge wire and then make each one the exact length, no extra. We made 3 cables this way  to connect the custom made S gauge sensor tracks, it would have been way too much work.

The final really bad alternative would have been to remove all the LCS devices and remount them in a single location with very short interconnecting cables. Then run all the output wires around the layout to the controlled devices. The reason for the long LCS cable run length is each LCS module is located at the devices it controls. No output wires cross a layout module joint.  This would also have reduces the number of ASC2's needed since we could then max out the number of devices connected to each one. The number of outputs used on the ASC2's is limited by how many turnouts etc. are on each module. This would have been a significant rebuild of the layout at that point and also would have greatly increased the layout reassembly time on site.

If you are ever talking to Rudy or Jon they may recall the work it took to get the system operational last year. They were working with Mel at SMARTT who was building the control system for me.

The Amp is on the right, power supply on the left.

Thanks for the picture and explanation!  Much better than the other "solutions".

I take it there is a chip on the booster board...hard to see. What's that single wire soldered to the board? DB9 pin #5?

Oh I see now, the soldered wires to the booster come from the power supply.

I'm curious about that as well.  I suspect it's a simple buffer to boost the serial data signal.  Might be a good project to lay out a board and post on OSH Park in case others need it.  I'd probably add a little DC power supply from track voltage so you didn't need a separate power module.

I think a separate PS might be better. Sometimes using LCS to LSU and such doesn't require track power to be on. I could see it being a simple solution though. 

MartyE posted:

I think a separate PS might be better. Sometimes using LCS to LSU and such doesn't require track power to be on. I could see it being a simple solution though. 

Marty, the board could be connected to any AC power source like accessory power if you didn't want to depend on track power.  My point would be to have a one-stop shop with everything on one board as it's only a handful of components to add the P/S.

For instance, that power module he's using is connected to DC from somewhere I would imagine, I don't see a rectifier or filter cap for an AC supply.

Ah. Ok sorry I misunderstood. Thanks. 

Here are 2 more pictures. The layout structure gets in the way of the best camera position. Looking at the power supply the red tape is on the + output of the power supply. It is a 2 conductor cable connected to the + and - outputs. Looking at the LCS Booster the other end of that + wire is soldered to the top of the board. The - wire is soldered underneath the Booster board out of sight in the pictures. The reason for the separate power supplies is straightforward. Rudy and Jon sent us the 3 Boosters, we had to provide the power supplies separately. If Lionel ever decided to make this a Catalogued product I imagine it would be redesigned and optimized before they went into mass production. 

If any of you find yourself in Southern California stop by and take a first hand look.

The board I called a power supply is actually a regulator. There are 2 Samplexpower SEC1212 power supplies that each power their own DC bus that runs around the layout. One is exclusively for the Turnout relays (for switching power leads to the frogs in 2 rail) and the second serves the accessories, lights, the turntable and these regulators. Since DC power was already within inches of the location just a regulator was needed. Hope that helps. 

Makes sense Tom, I recognize that little regulator board.  I'm more curious about exactly how the buffer was done, I guess I could ask Jon Z. what it looks like.

I just looked under the layout at the other 2 Boosters as well. There is nothing visible with a part number. Unfortunately these were installed before I could get a close look and photograph both sides. Jon should be able to tell you how these were made up. 

I diagrammed the connections from the base to the LCS cable. The TX is data out of the base  and RCV, data back to the base. Seems like some booster for both directions would be needed?

I'm wondering why the extra power supply.

To power all the additional modules over the cable runs they have. 

Well, the buffer they're using needs to have power I expect.  I think one of the issues is the power drops off with the longer runs, perhaps they're providing boosted power as well?  I wonder if it would be as simple as an RS-232 booster, one channel in each direction?  Looks like you could use the MAX232A to do the whole boosting job.

My thoughts too. The MAX 232 takes +5vdc though. And I guess the 5 v wall wart supplied with the LCS could run out of power in a couple hundred or so foot run. A 12 v 232 chip?

The MAX232 has a charge pump to generate 10 volts for the internal circuitry so it meets the RS-232 specifications.  I think a "booster" might also be able to provide the 5V for devices down the line since long runs will drop the 5V from the head end.

Well, I ordered the module from Nicholas Smith on Tuesday, it arrived on Wednesday afternoon, and I installed it on Thursday. Based on Marty's comment, I took the easy route and just added the wifi module as the third device in the chain and it appears to work just fine. Regardless of anything else it might do, the fact that it gives me an editable list of engines in my Legacy base makes it worth the price (found what long lost number I assigned to my TMCC crane and work caboose, and could finally easily erase the two erroneous entries I had in my list!!!). I've started to play around with the app, but it looks like I'm going to have to read the instructions - oh the horror!!!

Thanks for the help.

As for the side discussion which arose from my original question, as a admitted and qualified techno-peasant, I must say I haven't the faintest notion of what you all were talking about   I am sure this has never been said on this forum before, but the subsequent discussion makes me VERY glad I don't have a really large layout!!!

My only issue with the app is after uploading a picture and updated file I have to restart the app for it to communicate again.

Apples55 posted:

Regardless of anything else it might do, the fact that it gives me an editable list of engines in my Legacy base makes it worth the price (found what long lost number I assigned to my TMCC crane and work caboose, and could finally easily erase the two erroneous entries I had in my list!!!).

The LSU - Legacy System Utility does this for free.