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Here is another project that is for my own personal collection. This time it is a Williams Brass Class J #611. This one is getting the BEMC, RCDR, RS lite, LTC1, Fatboy Speaker, and hopefully I can fit the DSMK for whistle steam. I am still working on the smoke setup plan. I had to make some major modifications to the weight in the locomotive and the BEMC itself. The weight had to be cut down to fit the DSMK I will be using for the smoke. The BEMC was to tall, so I mounted the large cap and rectifier off the BEMC. The Mount it is on is from forum member Bruk Banister. The tender for the most part is done fabrication wise other than the wiring, lighting, and the antenna in the coal load. Cosmetically the only major modification I did was install Lionel class light housings with the green lenses. They are not perfect, but look much better than the old ones that this engine came with. So far this is turning out well. More to come.

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@Norton posted:

Sid, you do some fine work but I have to ask, why do you opt for Legacy instead of ERR. Are you adding smoke effects or swinging bell? If not I don't see the advantage other than 200 speed steps instead of 100.

Pete

For lots of these locomotives I opt for it because of the whistle steam, speed steps, and sounds. This one is getting whistle steam and there is truly a difference between err sounds an legacy sounds. Sure I could have used the RS5 611 sounds, but the legacy still has a lot of features.

Sid, be mindful of the stock motor in some of these older Williams pieces, ...they’re known amp hogs....I’d do some testing and know my amp draws before taxing/ destroying expensive things......you might get away with it, or you might not, ....but “ a man’s got to know his limitations” as Clint would say.....you could always Pittman swap it, and surrender some top end speed, but that’d be fine by me....those locomotives are 44:1 gearing......and with the stock motor spinning at warp speed, they like amps.....a lot .....tread lightly....

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Sid, be mindful of the stock motor in some of these older Williams pieces, ...they’re known amp hogs....I’d do some testing and know my amp draws before taxing/ destroying expensive things......you might get away with it, or you might not, ....but “ a man’s got to know his limitations” as Clint would say.....you could always Pittman swap it, and surrender some top end speed, but that’d be fine by me....those locomotives are 44:1 gearing......and with the stock motor spinning at warp speed, they like amps.....a lot .....tread lightly....

Pat

I totally forgot to mention I swapped the motor with a 555ph from ebay. If it doesn't work I will get a Pittman to swap. From everything I have read the 555 is a much better motor.

I totally forgot to mention I swapped the motor with a 555ph from ebay. If it doesn't work I will get a Pittman to swap. From everything I have read the 555 is a much better motor.

Good deal, .....the 555’s available on the bay are rpm’ed much like a Pittman, so, with the 555 you will surrender some top end speed, but no harm no foul IMO, .....the original motors are something silly like 12K rpm......the 555 will give you better starting performance too, ....ain’t nothing like a Pittman, that’s for sure, but it’s a way better choice than the wiper motor they used from the get-go.......that 550 is landfill material....

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

And do what Pete said!!....check that stall current, .....that’s a must!...I completely forgot that.....you’ll begin creeping up on stall currents as power is applied to the motor, before it begins to spin the motor.....so yes!...knowing stall currents is a must!,....good point Pete!..

Pat

Woah yeah I just checked the ebay ad and it said stall current is 11.8 a. Hmm. This motor looks like it won't work. It wouldn't blow the board, but instead make the cab light flash and not allow the Engine to move. So it looks like I will have to go the Pitman or Cannon route. Any ideas on which Pittman or Cannon motor will fit?

@harmonyards posted:

Pete’s quicker on the draw today...I’m trying to get two dozen Railking bantams up & running, so I’m straying from the forum....be sure to get a 12 volt Pittman, ...a 15.1 or a 19.1 in a Williams isn’t the best choice,.....the way that lousy gear box is, you’ll be throttling forever before it begins to move......

Pat

Ok. So the one Pete showed me is a 15.1. Do you have a 12v part number?

It takes me forever to open up Lionel’s parts web site, ....I live way back in the woods of NC,......do a search on Lionel’s parts site for Pittman motors, look for a number beginning in 9433, the prefix’s after that don't mean that much for what your doing....pick one rated at 12v, .......be sure it’s still available....if you have any questions, post up a pic of your findings, and we’ll help you from there.....

Pat

Last edited by harmonyards
@harmonyards posted:

It takes me forever to open up Lionel’s parts web site, ....I live way back in the woods of NC,......do a search on Lionel’s parts site for Pittman motors, look for a number beginning in 9433, the prefix’s after that don't mean that much for what your doing....pick one rated at 12v, .......be sure it’s still available....if you have any questions, post up a pic of your findings, and we’ll help you from there.....

Pat

Ok. Just curious, what do you not like about Cannon motors?

Ok. Just curious, what do you not like about Cannon motors?

Total junk as well IMO....another low bid part from the big L,......as I’ve mentioned before in other threads, unfortunately Pittman ( AMETEK ) has priced themselves right out of our hobby....I’ve replaced 2 cannons, one in my own Legacy, and the other in a buddy’s.....If you do some digging, Pittmans can still be had for reasonable money...

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Total junk as well IMO....another low bid part from the big L,......as I’ve mentioned before in other threads, unfortunately Pittman ( AMETEK ) has priced themselves right out of our hobby....I’ve replaced 2 cannons, one in my own Legacy, and the other in a buddy’s.....If you do some digging, Pittmans can still be had for reasonable money...

Pat

Ive worked on many, many newer product with the Canon style motor throughout the years. I haven’t had or seen any issues.

@Bruk posted:

Ive worked on many, many newer product with the Canon style motor throughout the years. I haven’t had or seen any issues.

Then you’re lucky Bruk, .....my Legacy ESE developed a lovely clicking noise, audible over the sound system, so that one went to the rotary file, and I had another in a customer/buddy’s engine that decided it was good time to roast itself....cannons or Mubachi’s are no match for a Pittman.....that’s straight up from experience....

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Then you’re lucky Bruk, .....my Legacy ESE developed a lovely clicking noise, audible over the sound system, so that one went to the rotary file, and I had another in a customer/buddy’s engine that decided it was good time to roast itself....cannons or Mubachi’s are no match for a Pittman.....that’s straight up from experience....

Pat

I wont disagree Pittmans have proven their worthiness. But I have little luck finding new brushes for those.

Last edited by Bruk
@Norton posted:

Lionel lists one Pittman as 12v. Its a 9234 which I believe is 61 mm long. You can see if it would fit before ordering. Diameter is the same as the 15v Pittman so its close to your 550.

I believe GRJ has already replaced a number of burnt out Canons so buyer beware.

Pete

9234 is the same size as the  veritable 9434 found in a lot of O scale stuff, .....same width, same length.....I’ve fit 9234/9434’s in Williams Niagara’s before with little mod other than the mount needing different bolt pattern.....I’d like to think that N&W J is pretty cavernous inside the cab, .....should not be an issue fitting the larger motor,.....

Pat

@Bruk posted:

I wont disagree Pittmans have proven their worthiness. But I have little luck finding new brushes for those.

As far as wear parts go Bruk, I can hook you up with the AMETEK salesman I use, .....their motors went through the roof as far as price is concerned, but their parts are still pretty reasonable .......I am not a dealer, but can hook you up with the rep I struck an accord with.....but TBT, I’ve rarely seen worn out brushes on a Pittman, ...maybe once in a great blue moon I’ve seen a broken brush, but even then it’s 99% been my fault tryin to fidget with something and accidentally snap one off...

Pat

I’d guess the choice of Mabuchi motors for the Williams brass Daylight (89) and  J (90) was Samhongsa’s when these these engines came out thirty years ago (!). Apparently the same shortcomings inspiring the current thread were noticed by Jerome Williams’ “kids” in Columbia, MD (AKA Andy Edelman, Mike Wolf, et. al.) Andy soon offered an update kit on his own, consisting of a Pittman motor and a new fly-wheel (as I guess the Mabuchi and Pittman shafts were different). Then It developed that Samhongsa used different gender fly-wheel drive shaft couplings between the two locomotives, and Andy hadn’t caught that. He had provided the same gender for both. There was a “What the???” phone call, and Andy eventually shipped a revised fly-wheel (for the J). So I have enjoyed better running with these two Pittman powered locos for three decades now. 

Last edited by OddIsHeRU

Sid, you need to carefully count the ratio of your gearbox there are two solutions depending on the ratio of your gearbox..  Put a mark on one drive wheel and another on the flywheel in a location that you can see both from one viewing angle. It is also nice to have those marks line up with a fixed detail on the loco as a reference point. Then start turning the 42:1 takes a while.  Before you put your marks on the wheel and flywheel turn the flywheel in the direction you wish to turn while counting to make sure all the slack is taken up.  The 42:1 can have a bit of slack.  I have owned over twenty Williams locos and only found two gearboxes in the Samhongsa made locos they are basically the same gearbox one has a double helix worm and one is single. The single helix worm gives the gearbox a 42:1 ratio. The double helix worm has a ratio of 21:1.  Williams imported some locos from Ajin and I have yet to count the turns on any of their gearboxes. That may be the source of the infamous 44:1 box. Not that there would be any significant difference between 44 and 42:1.  Hopefully your "J" has the 21:1 box. However if it has the 42:1 box there is a solution to keep the motor from screaming like a siren at anything above 30smph.  The nice thing about the Pittman is the closed case keeps the noise inside for the most part however if you want to drive your J at anything about 30smph your going to need more rpm than the 12v Pittmans deliver.  One of the values you need to ascertain with whatever motor you plan to use is the static resistance of the motor that will determine the stall current at whatever the maximum voltage you drive the motor at.  A stalled motor obeys ohms law so if you want a 6A stall current at 12V your motor will have a static resistance of 2 ohms.  A quick and dirty way to determine static resistance is to first run the motor at a low voltage for a couple of minutes to remove any oxidation from the commutator segments.  then disconnect the power connections or any other electronics such as an electronic e-unit, driver-board etc. connect your VOM set to read ohms and take a reading. Spin the motor again take another reading. Do this 5-6 times and average them.  On a new motor you need to run it long enough to fully seat the brushes. Ten minutes should be enough. I have no experience with Legacy motor drivers but most TMCC drivers can deliver 8A for a short time in a stall situation so the lowest static resistance should be no lower than 1.5 ohms and your pressing your luck at that, it will be an amp hog too boot. Try and stay above 2 ohms. So your looking for a 2 ohm motor at what ever rpm your driver diameter and gearing give you for your desired top speed.  Driver diameter X 3.1416 = ? .        Divide  1320" (scale mile in inches) by this number to find the wheel revolutions per scale mile. Then multiply this number by the ratio of your gearbox. That is the rpm you will need for 60smph.  You can use a simple ratio to find speeds over 60smph.  X 1.5 would give you the rpm needed for 90smph.  I am always happy to have a top speed on a model of 60smph for passenger locos and 40smph for freight locos.  Now what to do should you be lucky enough to have that 42:1 gearbox.  A similar discussion to this started a couple of months ago and it prompted me to pull out what Williams and early Weaver Samhongsa locos I still have.  I had forgot what gearboxes I had.  I still have five of the Sam. locos two have the 42:1 gearbox and three have the 21:1 gearing. Luck would find that the two locos I wanted to run fastest, a Williams "J" and a Weaver PRR M1 Mountain,had the 42:1 box.  The gearbox on all of these locos can be swapped easily as the bottom cover comes off and the gear on the axles are all the same. I also have a Williams PRR B6 switcher 21:1 and a Williams PRR L1 mikado also 21:1. I am not all that concerned with the top speed on either of those locos so I took their 21:1 gearboxes and swapped out the 42:1 boxes on the "J" and the M1.  I then put the 42:1 boxes on my B6 switcher and the L1  2-8-2 Mikado. Though 30smph is not a problem at all on the B6 I would like the Mikado to be useable at 40smph without the siren sound of a Mabuchi 500 series motor spinning a 12,000rpm.  The solution, at 42:1 motor torque is not an issue but rpm is and the 300 series Mabuchi motors can go to 12k without too much whine and if you line the inside of the firebox/boiler with foam tape you can suppress most of the whine. So I am using a Mabuchi 385 with a static resistance of 2 ohms and 12,500rpm at 12V that will get the loco to about 55smph at 12v I mounted a MTH flywheel on it and had to machine a sleeve out of brass rod to step down the flywheel hole to the 385 shaft took me four tries to get the thing concentric.  Well the things runs great I have only put 22 cars behind it but it seems that it could pull at least 30. The wheels and gearbox make far more noise than the motor. If their is a problem it is that any motor running over 10k, even with no load, is going to generate heat and the 385 runs hot I have run it over an hour with 20 cars and it gets warm but you can still hold it without having to let go. I bought it from Mops Electric on eBay and perhaps one of their 385 Mabuchis with 8500rpm at 12V would be plenty fast at 40smph and run cooler.  I am going to have to stop here but I have been working on this Mikado for about two months now and plan to post here what I have done I may not finish but I will put something up by tomorrow.  Link to the 385 I used   https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mabuchi-RS-385SH-Motor-Knurled-Shaft-12V-12500-RPM-Powerful-Hobby-Motor/284065816087?hash=item4223a45e17:g:IN4AAMXQrvpRE~hp.

I would still rather have any of the Mabuchi 500 series motors in it and if I ever find a Sam. gearbox with the 21:1 gears I will pull the 42:1 and the 385 out in a heartbeat.          j

@JohnActon posted:

Sid, you need to carefully count the ratio of your gearbox there are two solutions depending on the ratio of your gearbox..  Put a mark on one drive wheel and another on the flywheel in a location that you can see both from one viewing angle. It is also nice to have those marks line up with a fixed detail on the loco as a reference point. Then start turning the 42:1 takes a while.  Before you put your marks on the wheel and flywheel turn the flywheel in the direction you wish to turn while counting to make sure all the slack is taken up.  The 42:1 can have a bit of slack.  I have owned over twenty Williams locos and only found two gearboxes in the Samhongsa made locos they are basically the same gearbox one has a double helix worm and one is single. The single helix worm gives the gearbox a 42:1 ratio. The double helix worm has a ratio of 21:1.  Williams imported some locos from Ajin and I have yet to count the turns on any of their gearboxes. That may be the source of the infamous 44:1 box. Not that there would be any significant difference between 44 and 42:1.  Hopefully your "J" has the 21:1 box. However if it has the 42:1 box there is a solution to keep the motor from screaming like a siren at anything above 30smph.  The nice thing about the Pittman is the closed case keeps the noise inside for the most part however if you want to drive your J at anything about 30smph your going to need more rpm than the 12v Pittmans deliver.  One of the values you need to ascertain with whatever motor you plan to use is the static resistance of the motor that will determine the stall current at whatever the maximum voltage you drive the motor at.  A stalled motor obeys ohms law so if you want a 6A stall current at 12V your motor will have a static resistance of 2 ohms.  A quick and dirty way to determine static resistance is to first run the motor at a low voltage for a couple of minutes to remove any oxidation from the commutator segments.  then disconnect the power connections or any other electronics such as an electronic e-unit, driver-board etc. connect your VOM set to read ohms and take a reading. Spin the motor again take another reading. Do this 5-6 times and average them.  On a new motor you need to run it long enough to fully seat the brushes. Ten minutes should be enough. I have no experience with Legacy motor drivers but most TMCC drivers can deliver 8A for a short time in a stall situation so the lowest static resistance should be no lower than 1.5 ohms and your pressing your luck at that, it will be an amp hog too boot. Try and stay above 2 ohms. So your looking for a 2 ohm motor at what ever rpm your driver diameter and gearing give you for your desired top speed.  Driver diameter X 3.1416 = ? .        Divide  1320" (scale mile in inches) by this number to find the wheel revolutions per scale mile. Then multiply this number by the ratio of your gearbox. That is the rpm you will need for 60smph.  You can use a simple ratio to find speeds over 60smph.  X 1.5 would give you the rpm needed for 90smph.  I am always happy to have a top speed on a model of 60smph for passenger locos and 40smph for freight locos.  Now what to do should you be lucky enough to have that 42:1 gearbox.  A similar discussion to this started a couple of months ago and it prompted me to pull out what Williams and early Weaver Samhongsa locos I still have.  I had forgot what gearboxes I had.  I still have five of the Sam. locos two have the 42:1 gearbox and three have the 21:1 gearing. Luck would find that the two locos I wanted to run fastest, a Williams "J" and a Weaver PRR M1 Mountain,had the 42:1 box.  The gearbox on all of these locos can be swapped easily as the bottom cover comes off and the gear on the axles are all the same. I also have a Williams PRR B6 switcher 21:1 and a Williams PRR L1 mikado also 21:1. I am not all that concerned with the top speed on either of those locos so I took their 21:1 gearboxes and swapped out the 42:1 boxes on the "J" and the M1.  I then put the 42:1 boxes on my B6 switcher and the L1  2-8-2 Mikado. Though 30smph is not a problem at all on the B6 I would like the Mikado to be useable at 40smph without the siren sound of a Mabuchi 500 series motor spinning a 12,000rpm.  The solution, at 42:1 motor torque is not an issue but rpm is and the 300 series Mabuchi motors can go to 12k without too much whine and if you line the inside of the firebox/boiler with foam tape you can suppress most of the whine. So I am using a Mabuchi 385 with a static resistance of 2 ohms and 12,500rpm at 12V that will get the loco to about 55smph at 12v I mounted a MTH flywheel on it and had to machine a sleeve out of brass rod to step down the flywheel hole to the 385 shaft took me four tries to get the thing concentric.  Well the things runs great I have only put 22 cars behind it but it seems that it could pull at least 30. The wheels and gearbox make far more noise than the motor. If their is a problem it is that any motor running over 10k, even with no load, is going to generate heat and the 385 runs hot I have run it over an hour with 20 cars and it gets warm but you can still hold it without having to let go. I bought it from Mops Electric on eBay and perhaps one of their 385 Mabuchis with 8500rpm at 12V would be plenty fast at 40smph and run cooler.  I am going to have to stop here but I have been working on this Mikado for about two months now and plan to post here what I have done I may not finish but I will put something up by tomorrow.  Link to the 385 I used   https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mabuchi-RS-385SH-Motor-Knurled-Shaft-12V-12500-RPM-Powerful-Hobby-Motor/284065816087?hash=item4223a45e17:g:IN4AAMXQrvpRE~hp.

I would still rather have any of the Mabuchi 500 series motors in it and if I ever find a Sam. gearbox with the 21:1 gears I will pull the 42:1 and the 385 out in a heartbeat.          j

While everything you said is true, I am installing legacy and the stall voltages of the Mabuchi motors are to high will trip the legacy boards into stall mode.

@OddIsHeRU posted:

I’d guess the choice of Mabuchi motors for the Williams brass Daylight (89) and  J (90) was Samhongsa’s when these these engines came out thirty years ago (!). Apparently the same shortcomings inspiring the current thread were noticed by Jerome Williams’ “kids” in Columbia, MD (AKA Andy Edelman, Mike Wolf, et. al.) Andy soon offered an update kit on his own, consisting of a Pittman motor and a new fly-wheel (as I guess the Mabuchi and Pittman shafts were different). Then It developed that Samhongsa used different gender fly-wheel drive shaft couplings between the two locomotives, and Andy hadn’t caught that. He had provided the same gender for both. There was a “What the???” phone call, and Andy eventually shipped a revised fly-wheel (for the J). So I have enjoyed better running with these two Pittman powered locos for three decades now. 

Richard I started a rant about the 21:1 VS the 42:1 gearbox before you posted your remarks and just finished.  What gearbox does your J have ?  The original Mabuchi motors were 3 pole motors and had a static resistance under one ohm  they were an AMP-PIG of a motor.  Mabuchi does make much better motors, suitable for locomotives, than those original motors. I have put 545s in all my Williams locos with the 21:1 box and they run great.  I have not tried but I would not be surprised if a Mabuchi 735 would fit in that large firebox on the J. The fact the MTH used Pittmans in their premier steam locos is why I have so many of their steamers.  I just can't buy new Pittmans at todays prices for anything but a prize loco.           j

I know right. That's a lot to take in. But is doesn't really relate much to this conversion other the sound problem

I might pick on ol’ John, ( truth be told we’re probably the same age group) but he’s a very smart man....I read what he posts, and put all the info in the memory bank,....you’ll never know when you might rely on it....read what he posted on his reply, and retain it....

Pat

Sid, truth be told, you should be concentrating first on a good solid foundation, THEN add all the fancy bells and whistles....engineering begins with a solid foundation....when we build our stuff from scratch, like you’re doing with that J, ....we start with finding solutions to the already pre-packaged flaws a particular piece comes with, ...we refine the drive trains to obtain the most power, least amount of amp draws, and the smoothest performance you can get with either straight DC power on the motor, or by simply using a rectifier to run the chassis on AC power on test rollers, or real world on the layout....we test, and we test, and we bounce numbers off each other’s heads till we’re all silly....once we’ve obtained smooth running conventionally, then we move on to the goodies,....that’s just the icing on the cake on a proven performer......and if you really want to make the Williams J stand on its head and spit out wooden nickels, ....get up with me, and we’ll figure out how to slide a MTH chassis under that shell, and park that wonky Williams chassis....😉

Pat

@Bruk posted:

Why don’t you guys just let him do what wants. From there he can learn what works and what doesn’t. He isn’t building a tank or a CNC machine. Its a model train.

Ain’t nobody holdin’ a gun to the boy’s head Bruk, sound advice is sound advice.....take it or leave it......last time I checked, Lionel don’t take back smoked up boards.....they tend to frown upon that......

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Sid, truth be told, you should be concentrating first on a good solid foundation, THEN add all the fancy bells and whistles....engineering begins with a solid foundation....when we build our stuff from scratch, like you’re doing with that J, ....we start with finding solutions to the already pre-packaged flaws a particular piece comes with, ...we refine the drive trains to obtain the most power, least amount of amp draws, and the smoothest performance you can get with either straight DC power on the motor, or by simply using a rectifier to run the chassis on AC power on test rollers, or real world on the layout....we test, and we test, and we bounce numbers off each other’s heads till we’re all silly....once we’ve obtained smooth running conventionally, then we move on to the goodies,....that’s just the icing on the cake on a proven performer......and if you really want to make the Williams J stand on its head and spit out wooden nickels, ....get up with me, and we’ll figure out how to slide a MTH chassis under that shell, and park that wonky Williams chassis....😉

Pat

Ok, this has gone way off what I originally intended. I am glad you all mentioned to me the idea of a different motor with a different stall current. The Mabuchi will obviously not work with the legacy electronics. Currently I do not have a motor to put on the chassis, so to pass the time I am just working on cosmetics and the tenders electronics. I do not want to put a MTH chassis underneath this locomotive as that defeats the entire purpose and makes me feel like I just gave up. Also just because I am young doesn't mean I don't know stuff. I have a bunch of knowledge and experience for someone my age. I learned from the best. I truly know for the most part what I am doing and am not going to just go off willy nilly and try to run the thing. Like Bruk said I am learning and this thing isn't meant to be a tank. I don't need it to pull a 20lb weight. It is still at the end of the day a brass model which I think we should all know are not the best pullers or performers. In the end I am just trying to have fun and do what I want. This is not my first rodeo dealing with these electronics and it sure won't be my last.

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