Skip to main content

I’m looking to buy a top level modern Diesel and am going back and forth between a Legacy or a Lionchief Plus 2.0. I have done a lot of reading but would like to hear owners’ thoughts on both?

I have just got back in the hobby after years of ‘life’ and have a LC setup now and really like it but want more performance wise.

Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

Individuals have to decide whether (or not) that extra detailing is worth the (approximately) double price over LC +V2 .  BUT- an early 2000s Legacy is a bargain, and should also be considered. In some respects, I think those early ones were better- better crew talk, tailored to the road number, for example.  Many of those were made in Korea, which I think are better than the Chinese ones.

The catalog description "can motor w/ flywheel" does not mean identical QUALITY of motor.   The set loco's DC motor vs. the motors in LC+ ones I have are night and day.   

1. Run a set loco (from a set priced at $250) for HOURS a day or run a lot of cars = early motor failure.

2.  I  run LC+ and Legacy engines on a medium sized layout and plastic/metal cars.  I have had NO motor issues w/ LC+ locos.  I am sure the motors used, the running gear, etc. might also be still  better again once you go to Legacy.

But ultimately- one has to value his approach to the hobby.  If trains are a side interest, then maybe buying $1200 engines is not a good idea.  I tend to do everything "whole hog".  "Your results might differ."

Last edited by Mike Wyatt

I want to run longer trains such as 20 cars or more. That’s one reason I know I will need more power than my basic LC ET44C4 (which is a great piece), especially given the time I plan to be operating them. Currently my train is only 11 cars in length plus the locomotive.

Are the motors different between the LC+2 vs the Legacy units?

And - I have the LC app on my phone for my LC unit but what Legacy system pieces do I need to run a Legacy locomotive? Does anything come with a new Legacy unit? Anything different Bluetooth wise?

Some people are perfectly happy using a phone or Universal Remote to run legacy engines. I personally HAVE to have my Cab-2 best thing out there IMO. Keep in mind tho that Bluetooth in legacy has only been in for the past couple of years anything older you won’t be able to run with Bluetooth. If your not ready to dish out the cash for the full Legacy system I’d highly recommend the Cab-1L it’s very basic there are advantages to it over the original Cab-1 and it’s a little cheaper. Plus then you would also be open to the market of any older Legacy or TMCC locomotives. If you do like the Cab-1L or Cab-2 remember that the new LC+ 2.0 can be ran as TMCC

Go into Lionel's parts list, look up the motor part numbers, and  you do see differences between LC+2 and Legacies.  A LC PRR Flyer motor is $ 18.  Looking at the Polar Express Lion Chief Plus 2.0 - the unbranded motor is     $ 28.50.  The Canon motor in the Polar Express Legacy $ 54  I am guessing that the performance of the motors varies widely, and is a huge difference from what I have seen.  The other difference is SOUND.

I also have a Legacy PRR K4 Pacific (smaller engine) from about 2011, SKU 6-11264, #1361. Bought used.  It runs great, great sound, great detail.  I think it was about $1200 (new) , years ago.

Consider USED Legacy engines.  Most hobbyists rarely run their engines because they have many of them.  Some NEVER run them.  But those who do are normally fastidious about maintenance.  And the price is generally 50-75% of new.  Add to that (IMHO) the sounds of locos in the early 2000s were better in some respects.  The crew talk addresses the engines by road number for example.

Last edited by Mike Wyatt

I'm a bit confused. I have no Legacy system but run Lionchief and Lionchief+ (as well as MTH wit only the DCS Explorer.)

I have my eye on the LionChief 2.0 GG1. It has a bunch of bells and whistles. Can I access all features (Mars light, etc.) using just the Lion Chief App, or do I need a Legacy system to fully access all the 2.0 features?

  I had my stuff packed away for years and it was mostly 70's-80's locos and cars.    A couple years ago my grandson became old enough to be interested so I set up the Southern Crescent and listened to it squeak and growl.   Couldn't find most of my track (must have got lost in the packing or move) so when I learned about Fastrack I started buying that and a couple LC locos.  Made a few errors but that is ok, it happens.   The most recent purchase were two LC 2.0 NS SD80MACs and they are nice, can be operated by transformer, AC or DC 18v bluetooth, or a Legacy control system.    My old KW and ZW transformers were a bit noisy and while they worked I wanted something foolproof for the kids.   I did use the LC power supply for a while but it being DC the lights on the remote turnouts only operated in one direction, plus trains with lighted passenger cars pushed it's capacity.    So I broke down and purchased a Powerhouse 180 Brick ($115.00)  which is AC (18vac) and has plenty of power for multiple trains, circuit protection, and remote switches also operate more reliably,..    Still haven't decided on a Legacy control system, but it would give me the ability to operate the LC 2.0 locos in lash-up mode.

@Raven87 posted:

Does a legacy locomotive work with the power supplied via the Lionchief power supply that came with my set or will I need to convert to a transformer power supply?

I thought I read somewhere that the LC power supply is 12 volts?

You'd need real 18v AC. You could get that using standard bricks like the MTH Z-500 50W, Z-1000 100w, or Lionel PowerHouse 180w.

Nope, it'll run just as well on AC as DC.

Great, thank you.
So I need to buy a powerhouse 180 brick, the TMCC lock on and a wired fastrack terminal section to change over to full AC power, right? Then I can use the LC app to control both my LC ET44C4 and any new Legacy locomotive units correct? Am I missing anything?
I really appreciate you guys answering my noob questions!

Steve

You don't need the TMCC Lockon, that's "fluff" IMO.  Just a proper cable to mate the PH180 to the track connection.

Is there a premade cable available with a female end that the PH 180 will interface with to the track or should I cut the plug off the PH 180 and fit connectors directly to the Fastrack via the clips underneath? I even wondered about the Fastrack 10” Terminal piece with wires already attached.

I’m just looking for a good and safe way to securely connect the PH 180 without buying the $50 TMCC Lockon as GRJ suggests. I don’t want to damage anything especially my new Legacy loco being delivered next week.

Steve

Last edited by Raven87
@GregM posted:

@Raven87

Check this topic.

Thank you Greg.
So - if I buy the 6-12893 cable adaptor, the female molex end obviously plugs to the male molex of from the PH. Then I would attach connectors to the wires on that cable to attach to the clips on the underside of a section of my Fastrack right?

Or, is there anything premade that has  molex female and the other male end that could attach directly to the Fastrack terminal that uses the connection on the DC unit?

Sorry for my lack of clarity but I just want to make sure I do this right.

Last edited by Raven87
@zhubl posted:

If your not ready to dish out the cash for the full Legacy system I’d highly recommend the Cab-1L it’s very basic there are advantages to it over the original Cab-1 and it’s a little cheaper.

This. I cut my command controlled teeth on the CAB-1L and I really liked it. It was super simple but still worked well. I did eventually upgrade to full Legacy but this was a great way to get into it until I had more money for a full Legacy system.

@Raven87 posted:

Thank you Greg.
So - if I buy the 6-12893 cable adaptor, the female molex end obviously plugs to the male molex of from the PH. Then I would attach connectors to the wires on that cable to attach to the clips on the underside of a section of my Fastrack right?

Or, is there anything premade that has  molex female and the other male end that could attach directly to the Fastrack terminal that uses the connection on the DC unit?

Sorry for my lack of clarity but I just want to make sure I do this right.

It took a little while, but I found a post by @ChooChoo1972 that included a link to the correct size barrel jack available on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d...p_mb_yo_pop_mb_pd_t2 

The wires from the barrel jack along with the wires from the 6-12893 cable would be connected together using Wago nuts or something similar.  This method would rely on the PH180 for overload protection in the event of derailments.

@GregM posted:

It took a little while, but I found a post by @ChooChoo1972 that included a link to the correct size barrel jack available on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d...p_mb_yo_pop_mb_pd_t2

The wires from the barrel jack along with the wires from the 6-12893 cable would be connected together using Wago nuts or something similar.  This method would rely on the PH180 for overload protection in the event of derailments.

Thank you Greg. Perfect!

@pdxtrains posted:

Is the Cab1-L to full Legacy what the DCS Explorer is to fill DCS? In other words, is it just very basic things, or can I for example, lash LC 2.0 engines with the Cab1?

Loosely yes. You get all basic command functions including MU’s. On legacy locomotives you’ll also get quilling whistle/horn on the Cab-1L. Of course it’s activation isn’t as smooth as the Cab-2 but it’s easily my favorite Legacy feature so anything that lets me access it gets a thumbs up from me 😉

So I did ultimately buy a gently ‘used’ UP Dash 9 Legacy after I converted my layout to AC power via a Powerhouse 180, etc.

Wow, it is a massive night and day difference between my LC unit - which I really enjoy - and this Legacy monster. As someone else posted, the Legacy is on a completely different level.

The actual locomotive moment/action and especially the sounds of the Legacy are really something to see/hear. I’m definitely 100% hooked on the Legacy features.

One question - Having not experienced an LC+2, is that level even close to the Legacy at all? Just curious...

A major Thank You(!) to everyone who has replied and encouraged me in my efforts to get back into this fascinating hobby!



F6D89A21-AB92-4CBA-8C34-13B32640B1FA

Attachments

Images (1)
  • F6D89A21-AB92-4CBA-8C34-13B32640B1FA
Last edited by Raven87

I run mine conventionally and love being able to run at slow speeds, the sounds and most of all, the details. I still like my conventional locos, but my legacy gp35 is currently my favorite.  When I build my permanent layout, I will likely run my pre ordered sd70ace with the app, as I don’t have legacy. Enjoy your new engine!!!

To answer your question, the details of the lionchief 2.0 are usually non existent (except for the sd80mac) The features look awesome as they seem to have good speed control, and smoke. I can’t attest for the sounds, as I haven’t heard one in person. I am planning on staying away from lionchief anything unless the detailing gets better or I find great deals. Since I’m not fully married to any control system, I might go with mth or it’s successor when the dust settles.

You will be happier with a Legacy over any Lionchief,  while there are used legacy engines, the prices seem quite high to me( I must not be looking in the right place for the great buys) , plus without the warranty, I would just buy new, you'll have peace of mind if there is an issue right out of the box (with the warranty). I use the MTH Z4000, its easy to switch from conventional to legacy control, I run them both ways.

@Mike Wyatt posted:

Great buys in "early Legacy" from around 2000- 2010.  Many "used" ones are available, and quite a few NOS are also.  They run great, have many features, and (in some cases, like the GP9s) have features in sound that exceed their newer counterparts.

Since I’m still learning about the Legacy environment and am a big fan of Bluetooth control, what more do I need to be able to integrate non-Bluetooth Legacy units into my layout?
I must admit I’m not clear on what additional hardware (and cost) would be needed to expand that way?

@Csxcellent posted:

I run mine conventionally and love being able to run at slow speeds, the sounds and most of all, the details. I still like my conventional locos, but my legacy gp35 is currently my favorite.  When I build my permanent layout, I will likely run my pre ordered sd70ace with the app, as I don’t have legacy. Enjoy your new engine!!!

Definitely love the slow speeds as well as the momentum effects. And the locomotive sounds are very realistic.

Because of that, I’m looking to buy a second Legacy modern era diesel right now.

@Raven87 posted:

Will that impact operation of any units I control via Bluetooth both what I have now or future purchases?

No Legacy puts a radio signal on the track that all Legacy/TMCC locomotives look for and will wait to respond to. Any LC locomotives will not care just simply ignore that signal for more information on Legacy and Bluetooth checkout THIS thread

The Cab-2 can simultaneously run 5 locomotives at the same time.

Last edited by zhubl
@Raven87 posted:

Since I’m still learning about the Legacy environment and am a big fan of Bluetooth control, what more do I need to be able to integrate non-Bluetooth Legacy units into my layout?
I must admit I’m not clear on what additional hardware (and cost) would be needed to expand that way?

First, the Lionel Legacy and others (TMCC- K-Line,  Atlas, Third Rail) will ALL run using the TMCC (Cab 1) OR the Legacy Cab 2) systems.  And any of the TMCC, LC, LC+ or Legacy engines will run using a conventional transformer.

To run in that "environment"- you need to buy a TMCC ("Cab1") or a Legacy ("Cab 2") system - which have a Command Base, and a handheld Cab.  The TMCC system has been replaced by Legacy (since the late 1990s) and the Legacy systems since.

The differences are that TMCC has fewer features (but more than I ever use).  The Legacy system's handheld controller is more sophisticated, with digital readout, while TMCC uses keyed commands.  The Legacy system has more "speed steps"- so finer control, than the TMCC system - both have far more "Steps" than a conventional system.    And the legacy base/handheld Cab 2 is a rechargeable system.

Prices: a used TMCC System- about $175 with the "Command Base" and the handheld (Cab 1).  A second handheld is a plus so two operators can run at once- those are around $100 on that auction site.  But each TMCC system can control (I think) 99 locos, or accessories or combination.  You can also buy NEW, old stock TMCC sets, but they are getting more rare.

The Legacy Command System is between $ 350-400 new, and used ones are about $100 or so less.

BOTH Lionel systems hook up with ONE wire connected to an outside rail, and the Command Base plugged into the wall for power. NOTE- the TMCC and Legacy systems use the house wiring as an antenna- and the round "ground" post of the power cord is a part of that- you cannot replace the cord or plug with a regular cord, OR plug it into an extension or power strip. This is (IMO) THE big difference- the Lionel systems do not rely on perfect track to track connections, and are not generally affected by the size/ length of the trackage on the layout.



Locomotives: The ability to run from a LionChief Universal Remote, or use a Bluetooth device does not have anything directly to do with the  command system- those are built into the locomotive.  So an older Legacy engine will not run with the Universal Remote, OR your phone or tablet.

Interestingly- by using a power source (Lionel Power brick, or ZW-L) configured to operate with Legacy or TMCC, you can also control your conventional engines by using the system to vary the voltage to the track.  Very cool.  IMO- the handheld control is THE thing I like, plus the many features.

There are BOOKS written on these systems, and I have a writeup I can send if you just e-mail me that you want it: mikewyatt49@gmail.com

Last edited by Mike Wyatt
@Raven87 posted:

Thanks Mike! I just emailed you about the info.

Another question - what are the Legacy Writeable Utility Modules used for and how many come with a complete system?52FD5CF4-68ED-41B2-9273-BEFD2C9DB951

Steve

The rewritable modules allow you to load multiple engines on them so if you go to a club or another layout you can have all of you locomotive information. Originally legacy locomotives came with a orange module that had their own information. This gave the system the name of the locomotive and road number. Not necessary but a very nice touch and then it would tell it that it was a for example Legacy diesel with Legacy rail sounds. The base must be informed as to what you are going to run. If you give it no information it will stay in cab-1 mode and anything will work but you loose all the very cool legacy features if it’s a Legacy locomotive. If it’s a TMCC locomotive I MUST be on TMCC mode so that the base isn’t trying to send out the 9bit Legacy signal because the TMCC locomotive will not understand and will not function properly.

the black modules are also used to upgrade the Legacy base and Cab-2 remote.

I hope this helped.

@Mike Wyatt posted:

And any of the TMCC, LC, LC+ or Legacy engines will run using a conventional transformer.



An important correction to the above statement, LC (meaning non + or non 2.0 LionChief) engines WILL NOT run with ONLY a conventional transformer.  A conventional transformer can power the track the LionChief engine is on.

However, to operate the LC engine one of the following is required.

a, the LC engine’s specific LionChief controller

b, a Universal LionChief controller

c, or for Bluetooth equipped LC engines the LionChief app can be used instead of a physical controller.

@GregM posted:

An important correction to the above statement, LC (meaning non + or non 2.0 LionChief) engines WILL NOT run with ONLY a conventional transformer.  A conventional transformer can power the track the LionChief engine is on.

However, to operate the LC engine one of the following is required.

a, the LC engine’s specific LionChief controller

b, a Universal LionChief controller

c, or for Bluetooth equipped LC engines the LionChief app can be used instead of a physical controller.

Correct! I mis-stated.

I just bought a barely used (complete with manuals, etc) pre-owned Legacy 990 system that the previous owner had just purchased last fall. It is supposed to be here in a week so I’m really excited.

Any suggestions on things to look for given it is a pre-owned system? Can’t wait to learn the ins and outs. Best thing of all it opens up my options for future Legacy Locomotive purchases.

Steve

Last edited by Raven87

It was originally shipped from the factory with rechargeable batteries inside the handheld.  Make sure that they're present and functional.  At some point they won't hold a charge anymore as they age.

There are several postings on this forum about what you can use for replacement batteries if yours are bad.  It comes down to using exact replacements from Lionel, or third-party rechargeables.  You could also use standard alkaline batteries if you can tolerate changing them occasionally, or perhaps often.  If you do use alkalines though  you must turn the charge switch on the base off, because these aren't meant to be charged.

Mike

Last edited by Mellow Hudson Mike

Nothing wrong with pre-owned Legacy 990 set. As long as it’s not abused Lionel has been fixing all of them for free under warranty even if you are not the original owner.

as far as checking a new one out I’d second the batteries. Most don’t like to use the 991 base to charge batteries as other electronics make it warm. The 994 charger out of the 993 expansion set is good to charge batteries though.

also I’d make sure it’s up to date.
Cab-2 V1.61

Base V1.6



are the most up to date software versions

@Raven87 posted:

I just bought a barely used (complete with manuals, etc) pre-owned Legacy 990 system that the previous owner had just purchased last fall. It is supposed to be here in a week so I’m really excited.

Any suggestions on things to look for given it is a pre-owned system? Can’t wait to learn the ins and outs. Best thing of all it opens up my options for future Legacy Locomotive purchases.

Steve

It arrived this evening and I’m going to set it up tomorrow.
Exciting things ahead!

7FF7608C-D3DC-4B68-B7F7-9B6CB6FD9E36

Attachments

Images (1)
  • 7FF7608C-D3DC-4B68-B7F7-9B6CB6FD9E36

Just a quick follow up... I have to say thank you again to everyone who encouraged me to look closely at the Legacy line and control system. You were absolutely 100% right - it is night and day so much better than anything I imagined.

From the details on the locomotive to the sounds and then, to top it all, the incredible realism in the performance, I am still completely blown away EVERY time I fire up one of my Legacy Diesels. I can’t express how much joy they bring me.

So, I’ve already listed my Lionchief set for sale and now own two Legacy Union Pacific Diesels with a third on the way. I am hooked. Completely.

So, again - thank you. You were right!

Last edited by Raven87

The lion chief SD60M engines from a few years ago are a great choice. They are scale bodies, identical to the legacy version, have a great horn, run great and there are still a few new ones out there. $449 to $499, a very good compromise. they were offered as Burlington, Too Line, Conrail ,CSX ,NS, and UP in 2017 Signiture catalog. East Side Trains in Seattle still had some recently

@pdxtrains posted:

I'm a bit confused. I have no Legacy system but run Lionchief and Lionchief+ (as well as MTH wit only the DCS Explorer.)

I have my eye on the LionChief 2.0 GG1. It has a bunch of bells and whistles. Can I access all features (Mars light, etc.) using just the Lion Chief App, or do I need a Legacy system to fully access all the 2.0 features?

Still hoping someone will answer pdxtrains question. I am curious as well if all LC+ 2.0 features can be accessed through the lionchief app. I know with legacy the answer is NO, but would like to know about LC+ and LC+ 2.0 as related to the app alone.

If someone answered this I apologize, I missed it.

Brad

@B rad posted:

Still hoping someone will answer pdxtrains question. I am curious as well if all LC+ 2.0 features can be accessed through the lionchief app. I know with legacy the answer is NO, but would like to know about LC+ and LC+ 2.0 as related to the app alone.

If someone answered this I apologize, I missed it.

Brad

The short answer is no. There are still other sound effects you can get to with a Cab-1(L) or Cab-2 that the app or universal remote won’t allow you to get



a couple of examples would be the “crew talk” and the new “train talk” (I think that’s what they called it) can be independently accessed on a Cab on the app or UR all you have is one announcement button and it’ll play what ever it wants. Others also said you can also get the diesel refueling or coal refueling sounds with the Cab. Lastly the Cab’s also allow you to access the RPM levels on diesel locomotives.

hope that helps

@zhubl posted:

The short answer is no. There are still other sound effects you can get to with a Cab-1(L) or Cab-2 that the app or universal remote won’t allow you to get



a couple of examples would be the “crew talk” and the new “train talk” (I think that’s what they called it) can be independently accessed on a Cab on the app or UR all you have is one announcement button and it’ll play what ever it wants. Others also said you can also get the diesel refueling or coal refueling sounds with the Cab. Lastly the Cab’s also allow you to access the RPM levels on diesel locomotives.

hope that helps

Thank you. Do the LC+2.0's have labor chuff for steam? Revs for diesels? I care more about that than the crew talk features. I didn't think they had that feature.

I was thinking the LC+ 2.0 engines were designed for Bluetooth use, so I figured all the features they had would be within the app by itself and the fact that they work with the cab1/2 remotes was just an option .

Add Reply

Post
This forum is sponsored by Lionel, LLC

OGR Publishing, Inc., 1310 Eastside Centre Ct, Suite 6, Mountain Home, AR 72653
800-980-OGRR (6477)
www.ogaugerr.com

×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×
×