Legacy signal problems - extending engine antennas to help the problem

Dave,

    If you are running both Legacy and DCS here is your fix, run your Legacy drop on the opsite outside rail from your DCS wiring, and run the Legacy base wire to the out Black Channel on your DCS TIU also.  This sets up dual signal path to your Legacy Engines and gives you double the signal to the engine.  If you can, get rid of all your rubber traction tiers also. I Credit Marty F once again, for this outstanding engineering knowledge, it works like a magic, on my multi level DCS/Legacy Christmas layouts.  The only thing that interferes with the Legacy signal is a Weaver lighted Masonic Caboose for some unknown reason.  Old Master Heirum and his magic I would guess.

PCRR/Dave

Is the Legacy system plugged into a properly grounded 3 prong outlet without a surge protector? 

MartyE posted:

Is the Legacy system plugged into a properly grounded 3 prong outlet without a surge protector? 

This.   In addition, you can take a wire from pin 5 of the serial port on the legacy base and connect it to your earth ground, and ground plane wires on your layout to help the signal.  Dale Manquen here  on the forums has quite a bit of information on this on his website.  

Dave,

   Marty E makes a real good point, if you are running from a Multi-Plug Bar Unit, chances are you are not properly grounded, for the Legacy base. Always  run directly to a well grounded wall plug with your Legacy base plug, it makes a world of difference in operating your Legacy System.

PCRR/Dave 

I have found I need to plug the Legacy Base into the SAME grounded electrical circuit as the transformers.  However, the two transformers are plugged into a  power strip, and I believe the Legacy power cable is plugged into an outlet on the same circuit.  I will check tomorrow.   Should they be plugged into the same power strip / surge protector or should the Legacy base NEVER be pugged into a power strip / surge protector?

My grounding wire I have suspended along the track is  tied to a metal outlet box cover screw that is on the same circuit as the Legacy base.

Thanks for all your support / help.

Dave

One side of the legacy signal is transmitted via the ground lug of the base wal wart through the wiring of the room that the base is plugged into.

Some powerstrips/surge protectors can degrade this side of the signal. Eliminating any powerstrips and making sure the base is plugged directly into the wall outlet is an easy first step when diagnosing legacy/ TMCC signal issues.

Dave in Surprise posted:

My grounding wire I have suspended along the track is  tied to a metal outlet box cover screw that is on the same circuit as the Legacy base.

Just checking,  is this a metal outlet box of sort with metal conduit running the wiring?  If it is just a standard, in wall, box you may want to open it up to insure that there is a ground wire attached to the (green) ground screw.  I've seen cases where the ground wire is not connected, which would effectively leave your wire attached to nothing.  In either case, I'd recommend taking a wire from pin 5 of the Legacy base to that screw point as well to insure a solid ground plane connection.  

JGL

Given the isolated nature of the transformers, I'd be very surprised if you had to use the same outlet for the transformers and the Legacy base.  I know I've run with them widely separated without any issues.

Gentlemen,

   Guns is absolutely correct, I do not care where the Transformers are plugged into, the Legacy 990 base should be plugged directly into a well grounded wall plug, you can see this for your self on the Lionel educational video.  Stay away from most plug bars they are not well grounded.

PCRR/Dave

Try running the grounding wire(s)  between the tracks (parallel )  .

Bob Bartizek had a great article  about this type of thing in OGR a few years back. 

Any updates?

Yesterday we removed the TMCC and Legacy bases from surge protectors.  There was some improvement.  My Vision Big Boy ran smoothly ( it always has).  I had extended the antenna on my AC6000 since the previous time I ran it, and it ran with no problems. So we can not say which change improved the results.  A friend, Mitch, brought two Mikados to run.   The Legacy Mikado ran through the U with no problems.  He said that was a big improvement.  He then ran his TMCC Mikado and it stopped five times within a 20 foot span of the U every time he made a full loop through the layout.  We have a 20 foot section of U on each of the two 200 foot long loops in the layout that gives us 99% of our problems. 

There is one other characteristic of the U. Our two 200 foot loops are controlled by five MTH TIUs.  Our Legacy / TMCC problems are almost all in a section of track controlled by one of those TIUs.  90% of our club members run MTH.  They are very knowledgeable on the MTH system and its hardware.  They have checked and rechecked the wiring to that TIU.  It has been changed out several times.  That's why we are now looking at the Lionel system primarily.  If anyone has an idea here, please let us know.

Thanks for ALL you help.  It is greatly appreciated by this minority (Lionel) club member.

Dave

I've heard that holding down the horn button can determine a location where the TMCC signal is weak. If the horn stops blowing the signal is weak at that location.   Forget this one , you know where the problem is.

I suppose you tried running an additional wire from the U connection  on the base to an outside rail in the weak area.  

Does putting your hand over the loco help?

Are both outside rail tied together?

 TMCC engines must be added to the TIU that the TMCC base is plugged into if using the dcs remote.

Dave in Surprise posted:

There is one other characteristic of the U. Our two 200 foot loops are controlled by five MTH TIUs.  Our Legacy / TMCC problems are almost all in a section of track controlled by one of those TIUs.  90% of our club members run MTH.  They are very knowledgeable on the MTH system and its hardware.  They have checked and rechecked the wiring to that TIU.  It has been changed out several times.  

I have a perhaps off-the-wall question.  Why in the world does it take 5 TIU's to control a total of 400 feet of track???  That should be easily accomplished by one, at the very most two TIU's.

We have four large loops and over a dozen sidings.  Only two of the loops are designed with a U.  Those two loops are where we were having TMCC / Legacy signal problems.

Thanks,  Dave

Run an earth ground wire around your layout; especially in trouble areas.  It's easy; all you have to do is find an earth ground  in your place ( if unfamiliar ask an electrician) and then attach a small wire to it and hide the wire around your layout, especially in tunnels and areas where there is radio interference. We did this at our very large train club with fantastic results. 

If his first post is correct, he already has the earth ground wire ran. 

Dave:

An off the wall question - I noticed another layout behind the U. If that is an HO layout do your signal issues crop up when the HO guys are running trains? If so their signal is messing with yours. The same situation occurred with the Paradise and Pacific O gauge club in Scottsdale. I am not sure how they solved it.

All the tracks in the U are level so I have doubts about a grounding wire. I would think there should not be signal interference for a situation like this.

Also to be safe check the voltage on the tracks in the U. As John said there are a lot of TIU's. Maybe some 'extra' voltage is cropping up in the U??????????? In cases of a major difference you will see the roller or wheels spark then the engine shuts down.

Joe

Is the legacy base track wire connected to the TIU output common?

Are both outside rails connected to common?

Find an AM radio and tune it to a no music channel. is there any or more static near the U.  Faulty fluorescent lights could cause a problem.

Courtesy trainfacts.com : problems and Solutions section